Category: ThruLines

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Following Up On a Frazer ThruLines Shared Match

In my previous Blog, I was looking at a ThruLines match I have named Susan. When I looked at Susan’s ThruLines, it seemed to confirm that we share the common ancestors of Michael Frazer born about 1764 in County Roscommon Ireland and Margaret Stewart. Susan and I had one Shared DNA Match named Patrice

Building a Tree for Patrice

Patrice’s DNA and tree was managed by someone else. The other person had a larger tree, but only a smaller tree for Patrice. I built out Patrice’s tree out to her 2nd great-grandparents like this:

This was a pretty quick and dirty tree and I used mostly Ancestry hints to get out this far. I was worried I wouldn’t find a connection. Then Mary Fraser showed up:

My guess is that Mary is the one to follow. She has 16 Ancestry hints. In this Civil War Pension record, she is Mary M McKay:

Every initial is potentially important in following Mary’s trail.

Here is the 1860 Census:

This helps us trace the McKay family geographically. This means that the family should have been in Canada between 1846 and 1853.

Bell above is Isabella. She seems to have been born in Warwick, Canada:

That opens the door to Canada:

Above is my best guess for Warwick.

Here is another interesting record from Warwick:

Apparently a John Stewart Fraser McKay was also born to Hugh and Mary M McKay in the town of Ancaster in 1850. From what I can tell, this is Ancaster:

That gives us a short chronology for the Hugh McKay family. The family is living in Ancaster outside of Hamilton in September 1850 when John Stewart Frazer is born. The Ontario 1851 Census doesn’t happen until January 1852. We don’t know where the family was living at that time. Isabella McKay is born June 1853 in Warwick, Ontario. The family is still in Warwick when both children are baptized in April 1854 at a Wesleyan Methodist Church by the Reverend George Case.

The naming of John Stewart Fraser McKay seems to be a clue as to Mary’s background:

Trying to Place Mary Fraser in the Frazer Family

Mary states that she was born in New York, but I wonder. I think that she was born in County Roscommon, Ireland. Here is one guess for her birth:

Here is an online view of Mary:

Although the date seems to fit for Mary, I was expecting her to be from the James Line of Frazers due to the shared DNA match between Patrice and myself. I have that the Mary from Roscommon would be from the Archibald Line under John Frazer. This is what I have so far for DNA matches on that line:

My guess is that Mary could fit in between John Frazer and William Frazer above.

How Could Mary Be On the Archibald Frazer Line?

Patrice, Susan and I have shared DNA matches. That does not mean that we share the same ancestors. For that to happen, I would need to show triangulation which is not possible with Ancestry results. I have two Archibald Frazer Line ancestors and one James Line Ancestor. My match to Susan is on the James Line. It looks like my match to Patrice is on the Archibald Line. Patrice may match Susan distantly on the Frazer side or more closely on a non-Frazer line.

Review of the John Frazer Branch

In my pink DNA/genealogy chart above, I have brothers John and William Frazer. I have that John was probably in Canada in 1849 and in Niagara County, New York in 1851. That was my explanation why I couldn’t find him in the Canadian 1851 Census nor in the US Census of 1850. Perhaps Mary took a similar route. John spent most of his time in Lockport, New York.

William Frazer Born 1828

When William married in 1863, he was living in Tecumseth Township, Ontario. In 1871 William and family were in Gwillimbury West, Ontario. Here is a map:

Mary was living in Ancaster in 1850. John was in Canada in 1849 but moved probably to Lockport by 1851 and was in Lockport, NY in 1855. William was in Tecumseth in 1863 when he married Mary Jane Wilson.

An Additional ThruLine to Add to the Evidence (Or Confusion)

Ancestry has provided me with this additional ThruLine:

Here ThruLines did something that I would consider doing. It found a match between me and Bob and matched our two trees together based on an available Anne I had in my tree on the John Frazer Branch. I was having trouble placing this McPartland Branch. My most recent guess had them on the James Line:

Ann Frazer and the McPartland Branch: Archibald Line or James Frazer Line?

I can see some arguments for having the McPartlands under the Archibald Line and John Frazer Branch:

  • I have a baptismal record for 6 Jan 1823    bpt.      Anne dau. of Archibald and Jane (WHITE)
  • The McPartlands settled around the Buffalo area. This is not far from Lockport where John Frazer from the John branch lived.

Adding Bob to the McPartland DNA/Genealogy Tree

I see that I am missing Bob from the McPartland tree above. So I need to add him in:

Summary and Conclusions

This Blog was more of an exploratory Blog rather than one that came up with conclusions. I was looking into a Shared match between someone on a Michael Frazer ThruLine and myself. That shared match was Patrice. I looked into her tree and found a Fraser named Mary. I expected that this Mary would fit into my Michael Frazer ancestry. However, she seemed to fit in better with a John Frazer Branch. I am also related distantly on the John Frazer side. To complicate matters more, Mary consistently claimed that she was born in New York State rather than Ireland. In addition, I have found no record stating who Mary’s parents were. Mary lived in the same area of Ontario that both the Michael and John Branches of Frazers migrate to.

Finally, when checking around for other possible shared DNA matches, I came upon Bob. He shows in a ThruLine with me as being potentially from the John Line of Frazers. I had also tentatively placed his McPartland Line on the James Frazer Line of Frazers. James was the father of Michael Frazer. At that point, the Blog went spiralling out of control and I went into Frazer genetic genealogy overload. I decided that rather than put Mary and Bob into the John Frazer Line, that I would step back, think about it and do more analysis on the DNA and genealogy. I did add Bob to the McPartland DNA/genealogy tree. To complicate matters, Karen and Chris above tested with FTDNA, Charlene tested at MyHeritage, and Bob tested at AncestryDNA. However, I believe that all four have posted their results at Gedmatch which is now Gedmatch Genesis. This should make analysis of their DNA results easier.

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Susan is Back on My Michael Frazer ThruLines

At my first look at ThruLines I had an interesting match with Susan. Unfortunately, her ThruLines went away. I predicted that she might come back and she did. Here she is again:

After Susan disappeared I tried tracing her ancestry back anyway, but got stuck at her Patterson great-grandmother level.

Building Susan’s Tree: Part 2

Here is where I got stuck last time:

Between James Hazzard and Mary Jane Patterson, we go from Susan’s tree to Barry’s tree on ThruLines. Here is a nice record I would like to borrow from Barry’s tree:

Here are James’ parents:

I have James’ mother as Mary Jane. Here she shows as Mary. In Barry’s tree she is Mary Jane. This critical marriage record ties together Barry’s and Susan’s trees.

According to Barry’s tree, Jane was quite young when she married. At least by today’s standards:

Here I owe a lot to Barry:

Jane dies young at thirty one years eight months. That would put her birth in 1854.

Making the Jump from Patterson to Frazer

From Mary Jane, I need to figure out how to get back to Frazer. Here, Barry shows that way again:

This is Catherine’s second marriage. Here she is linked to Arthur, Ontario. She is also linked to Ireland and Archibald Fraser and Catharine Nott. She went from marrying a ‘Pattison’ to a Patton. Without Barry’s tree, I think I would have struggled with this genealogy.

Here is the Township of Arthur:

Here is Catherine in 1861 not too long after her second marriage to Andrew Patton:

I’m glad to see Jane listed here also. This family of four lived  in a log house. Here is a map of where these families lived in 1861 in Southeast Arthur:

A Sneak Preview of Where We May Be Headed with Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott

Here is my combined DNA/genealogy chart:

It looks like Susan should end up under the orange circle. I am in the left branch. That is in green because I’m mostly sure that is right. The same is true for the McPartland Branch which is also under Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott. If I match Susan and she is in this group, that adds to the likelihood that I have it right.

Here is Catherine’s death record:

Here she is listed as being born in  County Sligo. Many Frazers were from North Roscommon, but some were over the border in County Sligo. Here is a birth record from Kilmactranny Parish in County Sligo for an Ann Jane:

Anne Jane Frazer  daughter of  Archibald and Catherine Frazer
Born  Dec 13, 1828                                                     
Bapt.  Dec 17, 1828

If Susan’s Catherine was born between 1830 and 1842, it would not show as there is a gap in the Kilmactranny Registers for that period. The other issue is that I have that Archibald and Catherine were married in 1829 at Kilmactranny:

Mar 02, 1829    Archibald Frazer of Ardcarne

                                         Catherine Knott of Kilmactranny

                                             Witnesses:  Archd. Frazer,  Cath Frazer

That means that the Ann Jane above could have been the daughter of a different Archibald and Catherine Frazer.

Here is the Patton family in 1871 with a few extra children:

Putting It Together – Margaret and Catherine Frazer

If I have it right, the genealogy probably looks like this:

This shows that I descend from Margaret Frazer who was the sister of Susan’s 2nd great-grandfather Archibald Frazer.

My James Line Discrepancy

Unfortunately, my chart above doesn’t match what I have on Ancestry Tree.

I show Archibald and Catherine coming from Archibald Frazer and Catherine Peyton. I do show a Mary born much later married to Richard Hazzard. So the Hazzard names comes up more than once.

In addition to this, I have two different versions of the James Line on my Frazer web pages. In one, I followed one Frazer researcher and in the other I followed another Frazer researcher. My combined DNA/genealogy chart is more in line with my Frazer Web Page called Production Update:

The difference here is that I am missing Margaret which is the line I descend from. It appears that Margaret should be the eldest daughter of Michael Frazer born in 1794 and married to William McMaster. Above, there is another tie-in as I see that the above genealogy from my Frazer web page has Archibald dying in Arthur Township in 1866. That was where Catherine Frazer lived. Here is an entry at the Find A Grave Website:

Here is Kenilworth:

Here is a better version for my Ancestry Tree:

Here I still have a problem, as I have Catherine Peyton Frazer born in 1829 to Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott. I believe that the Catherine of this Blog was just plain Catherine and likely born to a different Archibald and Catherine Frazer. I’ll say that Susan’s Catherine was born in 1834.

Here is the family in the 1851 Census:

Here are the ages:

This family lived in a log house. Jane was born in Ireland in 1845 according to this Census, so the family moved to Canada between 1845 and 1852. Here is A. Frazer’s farm in 1861:

Kenilworth is near the middle of the Arthur map:

The upper circle is for Frazer. The lower circle is where Catherine Frazer Patton lived in 1861.

A Short Story of Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott

It helps me to put some of these events into a narrative. Archibald Frazer was born about 1801 probably in Ardcarn Parish North Roscommon. His parents were Michael Frazer and Margaret probably Stewart. In 1829 he married Catherine Knott from Kilmactranny Parish in Sligo at the Kilmactranny Church. Witnesses at the wedding were another Archibald Frazer and Catherine Frazer. Their first daughter Catherine may have been born as early as December 1829:

The records appear to show two different Catherine’s baptized in October and December of 1829. Archibald and Catherine were married 2 March 1829, so if this is Susan’s Catherine she would have had a little over 9 months to be born.

The couple had at least seven children. They were born between about 1829 and 1846:

  1. Catherine
  2. William Wynn
  3. Margaret Stewart
  4. James
  5. Fitzgerald
  6. Michael
  7. James

Probably around 1844, Archibald’s older sister (my ancestor) Margaret Frazer McMaster moves to Ontario with her three daughters and a son. Between 1846 and 1852, the Archibald Frazer family moves to Canada and settle on a farm in Kenilworth, Arthur, Wellington County, Ontario. In 1852,. By 1852, the oldest daughter, Catherine had been already married twice – first to Thomas Patterson or Pattison and then to Andrew Patton. Catherine has two daughters with Thomas and more children with Andrew. Catherine Patton lives on a farm also in Arthur in 1852.

The Census for 1861 is a little difficult to read:

Here it looks like the eldest son, William Wynn Fraser, has married – probably Rachel Reid. Likely widowed, she is 36 and a 13 year old Reid is living with them. They then have two of their own children. Either Archibald married another Catherine or she has not aged at all in 9 years.

1871

Here is Catherine in 1871. She is now widowed and living with her two single sons:

Another Correction: Jane Frazer

In my tree above that I moved, I had Jane Frazer married to a Hazzard. That is apparently not right:

Perhaps she married again later?

Summary and Conclusions

  • I’m glad that Susan came back on my ThruLines. It allowed me to track the likely connection we have through common ancestors Michael Frazer and his wife in County Roscommon, Ireland
  • I was able to trace Susan’s Canadian ancestry from Hazzard to Patterson, to Fraser or Frazer.
  • Susan’s ancestors that made the move from Ireland to Ontario were Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott.
  • I have long known that I had a Frazer ancestor named Margaret who married a William McMaster. I only recently discovered that Margaret made her way to Ontario. I am now following up on her apparent brother Archibald’s family in Ontario.
  • Susan and I also have a shared DNA match. It may be worthwhile to check that connection out.
  • It would also take a bit more to tell the longer story of this family in Canada. I see from my DNA/genealogy chart descendants of Fitzgeral and Michael Frazer. They likely know their ancestors’ stories better than I do.

 

 

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My Strange McMaster ThruLIne

I have a strange McMaster ThruLine. There is some confusion on McMaster genealogy and the Ancestry computers have tied in to that confusion. It seems as if they make a stab in the dark in some cases. Here is my McMaster ThruLine:

I shouldn’t complain, because I have a DNA match with Catherine and there may be some valid match to my McMaster ancestors of County Sligo. One problem with the tree above is that it is not likely that there were two brothers by the same name. The second problem is that the Abraham on the right was said to be born in 1805. This would be when Archibald was 75 if I have my birth for him right.

Catherine’s Computerized Ancestry

Here is the breakdown from Ancestry’s computers:

Catherine has her mother from her own tree. Then her maternal Meehan grandfather is from Fred’s tree. Michael Meehan is from Victoria, Austrailia. Next, Elizabeth McMaster was from my own tree. I have this on my McMaster web site:

Complete with typos. So things look OK there. I can fix Ancestry’s Frankenstein tree with my own combination DNA/genealogy tree:

I have that James and Archibald had another brother named Robert, but I left him out for clarity. That means I have Catherine more closely related to me than Ancestry does. I am a fourth cousin once removed to Catherine. This was a case where it was worthwhile to look at more distant relatives in ThruLines.

Catherine’s DNA

Next, I checked to see if I had any shared DNA matches with Catherine. These shared matches have 20 cM or more of DNA. As I match Catherine by 14 cM, my chances were low, but I found a mother and daughter pair that I am familiar with. They are BV and Cheryl. Here is BV’s tree starting with her mother’s mother’s mother Maryann:

The problem is that I have Maryann in this tree:

BV’s tree has Abraham as the father of William McMaster. I don’t think that BV’s Ancestry tree is right for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that these two famliies lived in different areas. As these McMasters were farmers with three generation leases, they were somewhat tied to the land. The second reason is that Fanny McMaster married James McMaster. If Fanny descends from Abraham, that would mean that she married her Uncle James McMaster as James was the son of Abraham McMaster. Here is my solution:

 

Based on land records there was a John McMaster who lived in the area where William lived. He could have been William’s father and Abraham’s son. Say he was born about 1760. He could have been the eldest son of Archibald. Traditionally men named the eldest son for their father. For me, this is the best way to explain the McMaster family based on the DNA and land records. Under the above scenario, Fanny married her first cousin once removed. It would not be unusual to marry your first cousin in those days. I think that it would have been unusual to marry your Uncle. The above scenario would put Catherine and BV at 5th cousins.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I appreciate Ancestry’s ThruLines. Even the ones that are not right can be good hints as they are based on DNA and some sort of computer based pasted genealogy.
  • I easily fit Catherine in to existing McMaster families.
  • BV is a shared match between me and Catherine.
  • This shared match brought up a connection between McMasters that I had previously proposed in a previous blog based on a descendant of Samuel McMaster born 1853.

 

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A Strange Frazer Lineage at ThruLines

I was going through all my ThruLines. Here is one that caught my eye:

The first thing that I noticed was that I had an extra Archibald 5th great-grandfather. I suppose that is all right because I am descended from him twice from what I can tell. This potential Archibald was said to be born in 1732 in Armagh:

Here are the ThruLines:

ThruLines mysteriously added a William Frazer to Archibald. This is despite the fact that the tree above had no William as a son and the William Fraser tree had no parents for William.

Going up from MA, ThruLines starts with MA’s private tree up to MA’s grandfather. Then it switches to Heather’s tree for two generations. Add on Merilyn’s tree for two generations ending with Lee’s tree at the top. Perhaps the Ancestry computers had a bad night.

Working Out MA’s Lineage

I can build a tree for MA, but it will be a little tricky. MA’s mother is listed as living and private. As a result, I don’t have a surname for MA. However, that shouldn’t matter. When I click on MA’s grandfather, I see this:

Ancestry gives me hints but they are all for Johnston Magill Fraser. This is not bad as the connection between the Johnston and Frazer families is known to have occurred in County Roscommon. I like to hold off on accepting tree hints at Ancestry. Here is a birth for Johnston in Peel County, Ontario:

Here is Johnston in 1953:

Here is Johnston in 1911:

Johnston’s father William was a farmer in Chinguacousy, Ontario. Under race or tribe, William and his children are listed as Irish and William’s wife Maud is listed as English. Irish is a good clue.

Looks like the former Chinguacousy is near current-day Brampton:

Moving Back a Generation to William John Frazer

According to the Census, William was born in Ontario in November 1869. This appears to be William in 1891 in Chinguacousy:

This gets us up to John Frazer born in Ireland in about 1832.

John Fraser Born About 1832 In Ireland

This John has 16 hints at Ancestry. I don’t see John’s original marriage record, but this information looks to be important:

Here we find out where Johnston got his middle name. Also, we now have John’s parents names: James and Elizabeth. Here is the family in 1861:

John would have named his first son after his father. I don’t see James in the 1871 Census.

Now I’m running out of hints at Ancestry. Here is one:

Here is a son of John named James Johnston Fraser. This is his marriage record. My guess is that John Fraser’s mother may have been a Johnston. Another possibility is that Jane McGill’s mother may have been a Johnston also, but I associate the Stinson name with Frazer.

David – Another John Fraser Descendant

I match another person by DNA who descends from John Fraser. He is David. This is his tree on his maternal side:

Back in 2015, I suggested that he should be in the Richard Frazer Branch of the Frazers based on triangulation and the fact that there was an available James in that Line who was unattached.

David is on the line on the left. Here I have added MA:

I’m not sure that David fully embraced being in this tree. I have had my doubts also, but my rationale still holds from 2015. Here is my triangulation analysis from 2015:

This shows that David triangulates by DNA with me (JH), my sister (HHM), Bill (BR) and Jane on Chromosome 12:

Since 2015, I can add Ken, Susan and Gladys to the list of those who triangulate with David. Here is Susan’s match with David – also on Chromosome 12:

The strength of triangulation is that it indicates a common ancestor. The problem is that the common ancestor is not always obvious. In this case, the common ancestor could be with Richard or his unknown wife or the common ancestor could be the parents of Richard’s unknown wife. However, if the ancestor is on the Frazer side, it seems like Richard would be the correct person as a lot of other Frazers have tested and David would be matching them also.

Back To My ThruLines Tree to MA

I don’t think that this tree can pass the straight face test.

This tree is OK up to John Fraser than it falls apart. John’s parents were James and Elizabeth Fraser. Ancestry picked a couple in Scotland who lived around that time with those names.

However, this couple does not show that they had a son named John born in Ireland. This couple would have had to have moved to Ireland and then had John. However, this tree has this James living in Scotland in 1861 and dieing there in 1869. They would have had to have moved to Ireland, had John and then moved back to Scotland.

William Fraser

The same problem exists for William. I have seen no other record indicating that Archibald had a son named William. If he did, he would have had to have traveled to Scotland from Ireland, had William and then traveled back. It all seems quite unlikely.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Ancestry used a DNA match I had with MA and stitched together a very unlikely link between me and MA
  • I built out MA’s tree and saw that it matched the genealogy of David who I also had a DNA match with
  • I had shown previously that David Triangulates with other Richard Frazer descendants. Richard was said to have a son named James born around the time that David and MA’s brick wall ancestor James was born.
  • Based on the triangulation I had put David in the Richard Branch of the Frazer line. I added MA to that Branch also.
  • I can’t tell if MA also triangulates with the other members of the Richard Frazer Branch as she has not uploaded her DNA results to Gedmatch.
  • With ThruLines, I will likely be repeating this process for other ‘strange’ lines.
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Jane’s Frazer ThruLines Gone Wrong

In my previous Blog on Frazer ThruLines, I looked at Gladys’ ThruLines. Gladys likely descends from three Frazer brothers: Philip, Richard and Archibald.

Jane’s Genealogy

Jane probably descends from two of brothers – Richard and Archibald. I put Jane in the Richard Line several years ago based on her many DNA matches and she seems to fit there. Here is the Richard Branch with descendants who have had their DNA tested:

This next Archibald brother Branch is quite large, so I’ll just show Jane’s Archibald, son of Archibald Branch:

Jane’s Frazer ThruLines

Jane has given me access to look at her DNA matches, so I can also look at her ThruLines. ThruLines is supposed to match trees to DNA matches. This gives additional assurance that the genealogy was done correctly.

As I look at Jane’s Frazer ThruLines, I see a problem:

The first problem is that there are no DNA matches at Jane’s 2nd great-grandfather level. The second is that the ThruLines switch from Jane’s tree at her grandfather to K8777’s tree at her Great-grandfather level. At that level Jane appears to have the wrong great-grandfather. Oh my.

What Went Wrong with Jane’s ThruLines?

I have a similar problem with my Frazer grandmother’s mother. ThruLines is sure that her step-mother was her biological mother and I haven’t been able to fix that.

Here is Jane’s tree starting with her paternal grandfather:

Jane’s tree has Richard P Frazser as the son of Archibald Frazer. k87777 has Richard’s father as Alexander Fraser.

K8777

Here is K8777:

Hmm, what about k8777’s tree?

I don’t see the Fraser name here in k8777’s direct ancestor tree. My guess is that Ancestry likes trees with a lot of records. Here is k8777’s tree:

That is almost 2 records per person. That is a lot.

Here is k8777’s Alexander Fraser:

unfortunately, the Alexander had a William Fraser also born in 1878:

Jane’s William P Fraser

Jane has a lot of references, so I think that ThruLines should have used Jane’s William P Fraser. In fact, Jane has a ton of records in her Fraser Tree:

Another ThruLines Switch

Here is the end of Jane’s Fraser ancestry according to ThruLines:

The tree switches again to Rachel’s tree and ends with a proposed Fraser 3rd great-grandfather for Jane who is wrong. This is pretty bad. I don’t understand how Ancestry could have done such a poor job. Jane has a ton of Frazer DNA matches and good genealogy to go with it. Whatever formula they are using didn’t work for Jane.

 

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A Look at Kathy’s Frazer ThruLines

In this Blog, I’d like to look at Kathy’s ThruLines. Kathy is in the Frazer DNA project. Actually I’ll be looking at her mom’s and her Aunt’s ThruLines. Here is a combined DNA/genealogy tree:

Kathy is in the 4th row. Kathy is in the James Line of the Frazer Project. James is one level above that which is shown above.

Kathy’s Mom Charlotte

Here is Charlotte’s ThruLine based on her great-grandfather Edward Wynn Frazer:

Charlotte has four DNA matches shown below her mother, but those matches would be with close relatives such as daughter, niece, nephew and sister. It would have been nice if there were a first cousin match – someone descending from Minnie Frazer. That way we could walk the DNA matches up. Sort of like a chain of evidence.

Edward Wynn Frazer

On the Edward Wynn Frazer, Charlotte matches WG:

Charlotte has a match with WG, but not a great one. I’ll start a table for Charlotte:

The <1% is not very good. According to AncestryDNA 2nd cousins once removed share 19 cM less than one percent of the time.  This is likely a red flag issue. In my Blog for Joanna, she also had a <1% match with a 2nd cousin once removed. This would make me want to check WG’s tree. However, his mother is private. I would have to check the tree starting at WG’s maternal grandfather who is listed as William Archibald Frazer. Here is William A in Poughkeepsie in 1910 at age 5:

Here is Poughkeepsie:

I’ll assume that WG has his grandfather correct in his tree. In 1920, William’s father decided that his parents were really born in Scotland and England:

A clue is that the oldest daughter is Mena, transcribed as Ismerie in the 1920 Census.

On to Edward Frazer Born About 1870

This looks to be Edward’s grave stone:

A child Phibbs may be another hint. Here is some more information from Find A Grave:

A father is missing for Edward and his son William A Frazer is missing for some reason.

Here is Edward in 1900:

He is naturalized, arrived in 1886, and married in 1897. Here we have a differnet rendition of their first daughter Ismena. This matches with the Ismena Jane White Frazer from Find A Grave.

Here is a possible birth record for Edward:

Many trees for Edward have him born in County Leitrim, Ireland including Kathy’s Tree. Here is another record for Edward in Ballina:

Here is Edward’s marriage record from St. Paul’s in Poughkeepsie:

Here are the parents:

Unfortunately, Edward was transcribed as a Frager in the Ancestry records.

It seems like all roads lead to Edward and Ismena Frazer. Here is Kathy’s tree for Charlotte’s mother:

 

A Quick Look at Minnie (Mary) Frazer Born 1865

The goal here is to match up Minnie with Edward. Here is Minnie in 1900 in Stonington, CT:

According to this record, Minnie was born in Ireland in November 1865. She came to the us in 1888. She married about 1895 and had two children in Rhode Island. Then they moved to Stonington, CT. Stonington is just over the line from Rhode Island:

On the next page of the Census we see that Minnie’s mother Emma J. Frazier was also living with them. She was born February 1838 and came to the US in 1893. She had six children and five were still living. It looks like she had been married for 37 years. The census says her husband was still alive. That means that Emma married in 1863 if I’m reading the Census correctly.

That means that this record is a good match:

Emma  or Ismena J Frazer Born February 1838

Here is Ismenia J Frazer in 1910 in Stonington, CT living with Minnie:

Here is a 1915 NY Census for 202 South Ave, Poughkeepsie:

Here is an Ismenia Frazer who is staying with the Cline family in Poughkeepsie. She is from Ireland and has been in the US since 1889. Perhaps this is the connection? At 75, she would have been born in 1840. The problem is that I don’t recognize the other people in the house. If she is living in Poughkeepsie, why wasn’t she staying with her son Edward A Frazer?

Edward Frazer was living at Linwood Ave, Poughkeepsie in 1920:

That is very close to 202 South Avenue. This shows to me a connection between Edward’s family of Poughkeepsie, NY and Minnie’s family of Stonington, CT. It doesn’t prove that Ismenia was the parents of Both Edward and Minnie, but it suggests that she was.

Bringing Charlotte Up the Frazer Tree to Archibald Born 1792

Quite quickly, Charlotte is back to the 1700’s with her 2nd great grandfather Archibald Frazer:

With Charlotte’s connection to Edward Wynne Frazer through her cousin WG, the DNA looked sketchy. There was less than 1% chance that the DNA match could be accurate. However, going up one level, Charlotte has many more matches to descendants of Edward Wynne Frazer’s two brothers William Fitzgerald and Thomas Henry.

Charlotte and the William Fitzgerald Branch

William Fitzgerald was the older brother, so we’ll start with him:

I was just looking at a grave marker for William Fitzgerald:

This William was a busy man and made his way from Ireland to Sacramento, CA. Here are the DNA results on the Whitten Branch:

I would be interested to see how WG matches MP and Pamela, but I don’t have access to those results. Somehow, the DNA perked back up in a further out generation.

Charlotte and the Thomas Henry Branch

I like how this branch has DNA matches on three different sons of Thomas Henry Frazer. I get confused sometimes because as I understand it, William Sarsfield was originally William Fitzgerald and he decided to change his name. I’m getting lazy now and not checking the genealogy.

Here is the summary I have:

I’ll add these matches to my Chart:

The orange-colored matches are in Ancestry but haven’t uploaded their DNA results to Gedmatch for comparison. The green line is a family that I’m not quite sure where they belong on the chart. In my DNA chart, Gail has the highest match to Charlotte by far. In fact, the top 40% mentioned would have her at 2nd cousin once removed. That means she matches more than is likely rather than less.

Up One Level to Archibald Frazer Born 1751

Charlotte has only one match here, but it is on an interesting Branch. That is the Edward Frazer Branch. I have to be careful, as I think I accepted the wrong genealogy last time. On Joanna’s matching branch there was a line with an Edward Wynn Frazer who died as a bachelor. Obviously, if you have an ancestor with no children, you have a problem. However, I didn’t see Edward Wynn Frazer in this tree:

This tree is stitched together, but I am assuming that it is correct. It appears that the Private 3rd cousin 1x removed was our famous Frazer cousin Maureen O’Sullivan:

That gives another person on Prudence’s lonely line on the right below:

This match that Charlotte has with Brittney is also a little larger than expected. AncestryDNA uses a cutoff of 20 cM for a fourth cousin and Britney is a fourth cousin, once removed to Charlotte.

Next Level: To the Top of the James Line

This next level will bring Charlotte over to the Michael Frazer Line. He was the brother of the Archibald we just looked at.

Charlotte has 3 matches on the Michael Frazer Line and 14 on the Archibald Line. If it were the other way around, we might wonder if Charlotte really belonged in the Michael Line. However, having said that, there are about three times as many DNA-tested descendants on the Archibald side compared to the Michael side.

Here are Charlotte’s three matches:

It is sort of like two matches because two matches are parent and child.

Charlotte gets her first perfect scores with BV and Bonnie with a 33 out of 33%. A few notes:

  • Charlotte matches Cheryl at a slightly level than her mother BV. This happens sometimes and is normal.
  • Charlotte only gets a score of 5% for her match with SH but gets a 32% with her sibling Gail. I will assume that these two are full siblings. This shows the variation that is possible in DNA.
  • We can’t say that Charlotte is not a 2nd cousin once removed to WG at 19 cM. There are reported values of 0-316 cM and a typical value is 123cM. However, the relationship comes under more scrutiny at this level.
  • Overall, I would say that Charlotte’s matches make sense. It looks like once you get to the 5th cousin level, if you have any sort of a match under 20 cM, Ancestry says that it is pretty good.

Kathy’s Aunt Madeline

Next we’ll look at Kathy’s mother’s sister Madeline to see how the numbers compare. As Madeline is a sister of Charlotte, I would expect many of the same results. Like Charlotte, Madeline has no ThruLines for her grandmother Minnie Frazer and one for her great-grandfather Edward Wynn Frazer. However, the match is smaller than Charlotte had:

I also added in Madeline’s other matches while I was at it.

I’m beginning to see how AncestryDNA does it’s top percentages. Gail, with a 97 cM gets a top match percentage of 40. As I recall, that top 40% was if Charlotte and Gail were 2nd cousins once removed. That means with a larger match there is more certainty. When Ancestry’s top percentage is at 27%, the match levels are just above 20 cM. Ancestry uses 20 cM as the threshold for a 4th cousin. However, the results just above 20 are somewhat ambiguous. Below the 20%, Ancesty is more sure that the results will be in the 5th cousin range, so the top percentage goes up a bit to 33%.

Here is the same chart sorted by relationship:

  • The problem match is at the top. It would be good to have more 2nd cousin matches to compare.
  • There are not many 4th cousin matches, but that is a result of the genealogy. It appears that there aren’t as many people in that Edward Frazer Line – at least not many that have had their DNA tested.
  • In general the likelihood of the matches representing the relationship go from low to high as the relationships get further out. The one exception is Charlotte’s match with Gail. I take that to be unusual based on the other matches and with Gail’s match with Charlotte’s sister Madeline.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Like Joanna’s Thrulines, Kathy’s mom and Aunt had a match with a 2nd cousin once removed that had a very low probability of <1%.
  • I took a quick look at some of the genealogy between Kathy’s descent from Edward Wynne Frazer and her low probability match’s descent from Edward Wynne Frazer. I found a connection between them and the wife of Edward Wynne Frazer who was Ismenia or Ismena [Jane?] Whtie Frazer. She appears to visit her daughter on Kathy’s side in Stonington, CT and her son on the DNA match’s side in Poughkeepsie, NY.
  • Kathy’s mom and Aunt had a lot of DNA matches in the 3rd cousin range.
  • Kathy’s mom and Aunt had an interesting match with a granddaughter of Maureen O’Sullivan at the 4th cousin level
  • I am still gaining experience with the ThruLines. I have noted a general rise in probability of matching from the 3rd to 5th cousin levels. At least in these James Frazer Lines so far.
  • I expanded my James Frazer DNA Chart to include those matches on ThruLines. This fills in a lot of the blanks.
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Some Frazer ThruLines and Joanna

AncestryDNA has a new utility called ThruLines. The general idea is that they look at DNA matches and patch together trees on those DNA matches to the people who match. Sounds like a good idea, even though things could go wrong. The things that could go wrong are shaky trees and/or shaky DNA matches. However, let’s take a look.

Frazer ThruLines – An Overview

I have done a lot of work with Frazer relatives using Gedmatch. However, this new tool is quite interesting. When Ancestry comes up with a new tool, people take notice due to the millions of people who have tested their DNA there. I have access to ThruLines for some people in the Frazer DNA Project. Those people are:

  • Myself and four of my siblings – I am on at least the Philip and Richard Frazer Lines – both from the main Archibald Frazer. Then I most likely descend from the other main James Line through Margaret Frazer and William McMaster.
  • Gladys – She is on the Archibald Main Line also. She descends from the Philip, Richard and Archibald/Stinson branches of that Line.
  • Jane – She is also on the Richard and Archibald/Stinson Line. Jane’s Archibald/Stinson Line seems to be better verified by genealogy.
  • Michael – He descends from the same lines that Jane does.
  • Richard – I believe that Richard is from the Philip Line. However, there are different degrees of uncertainty on many of these lines due to how far the matches go back and lack of paper trails.
  • Joanna – She is on the James Main Line and comes down through James son Archibald born 1751
  • Beverly – Beverly is on the same Main James Line but descends from James’ son Michael born 1764.

The DNA Family Trees

I have  built some trees of Frazer descendants who have had their DNA tested. These trees have generally included those who have uploaded their DNA to Gedmatch. Gedmatch has made it easier to analyze the detailed DNA as AncestryDNA does not supply that detailed chromosome information.

The Archibald Main Line

Here is an overview of the Archibald Main Line:

The three brothers near the top are Philip, Richard and Archibald. Cousin Richard is in the green branch on the left. My siblings and I are in the blue branch under Philip, but also belong under the Richard Line due to a cousin marriage. Jane in the Army green line was added to the Richard Line due to all her matches there and seems to fit in. Gladys is actually the sister of the person circled and is in all three brother Branches. Michael is in the Richard Line and an abbreviated rendition of Michael is shown in the Archibald/Stinson line on the right above. David is included in purple due to a Frazer in his ancestry and DNA matches. He would be one of those branches with higher uncertainty.

The ones that I have circled are just the ones who I have access to their ThruLines. Many more Frazer’s have tested at AncestryDNA.

 The James Main Line

I have access to only Joanna and Beverly on this Line, though many others have tested at AncestryDNA.

Below I cut off the left-hand side of the James Branch to save room:

I have also put my family in green where they may match up with the James Main Line. It is possible that the green branch should be under the Michael Branch.

James Line ThruLines

I’ll start with the James Line Branch as I have access to only two people in that Line. Joanna has already started doing her own ThruLine analysis on the James Line.

Joanna’s ThruLines

Starting slowly, we see Joanna’s connection with her dad:

This is the obvious stuff, but good research starts in the known present and works back to the unknown past. Going up a generation to Joanna’s grandfather doesn’t add any more matches. However, at Joanna’s great-grandfather level, there are some new matches:

Joanna’s grandfather has a brother William Fitzgerald Frazer who has 7 descendants who match Joanna by DNA.

Joanna matches four descendants of Minnie and three of Walter.

Let’s look at Joanna’s matches to Minnie’s descendants:

One thing I notice that is odd is that Joanna matches Steve by one more DNA segment than Kay. I wonder why?

What Are the Odds?

Next, all the match levels have probabilities associated with them when I click on them. Let’s start with the two second cousins, once removed. They are Chris and Kay.

Chris matches Joanna by 18 cM. Ancestry thinks that has a low probability of being right:

Rather than show each chart, I’ve summarized Joanna’s four matches on the Minnie Branch:

Steve’s likelihood of being a good match is much better than his mom Kay’s. 22% seems low, but it was the second highest category with 25% being the highest in this situation.

Joanna and Walter James Frazer

Here the relationships are a little closer but the DNA matches are much, much higher.

I’m not sure what to make of this. This seems to say that Joanna’s match with the Minnie line is more unlikely and that her matches with the Walter James Line are more likely.

Joanna’s Next Ancestor: Archibald Frazer born 1792

Here Joanna has only one match to give evidence to their common ancestor:

 

Remember above that Chris had a match of 18 cM but he was supposed to be a second cousin, once removed. WG is a 3rd cousin once removed. Chris had a bad likelihood score of <1%. Let’s see what WG gets:

Next Up: Archibald Frazer Born 1751

[Note: The genealogy in this Thruline is not correct. See my correction in my next Blog:]

Joanna’s in luck as Archibald 1792 had a brother:

That brother was some sort of hot-shot based on the size of his tomb stone. By the way, the 11 DNA matches shown above Joanna are the ones we already looked at.

CK and DK have low level matches with Joanna. We’ll put them into my spreadsheet:

When Joanna went back a generation, her percentages went up.

It’s Too Late To Turn Back: James Frazer Born 1720

Joanna has this James as James Frazer of Clerragh:

We are fortunate that Archibald born 1751 had a brother Michael:

Joanna is getting more DNA action on the Michael Line. Here there are five matches. There are two I haven’t opened up yet under Patrick Henry Frazer.

Joanna and Mollie

First off, Mollie and I share the same ancestors of Margaret Frazer and William McMaster, so I find that interesting. The other interesting thing is that Mollie and Joanna are shown as fifth cousins, once removed. That goes off the charts:

Ancestry is giving percentages for up to 5th cousin, but after that, they don’t even want to make a guess.

Joanna and the Michael Line

Here are the numbers for all of Joanna’s ThruLines:

I added in a column for cM. This to point out that Joanna’s matches on the James Frazer line were as high or higher as that with the Archibald Frazer line which is a generation closer. The DNA would suggest, apart from the genealogy, that Joanna could as easily or more easily descend from the Michael Frazer Branch than the Archibald 1751 Branch. Of course, other factors may come into play such as the randomness of DNA inheritance and matching on collateral lines.

Another interesting thing is Mollie’s ancestry. She is said to descend from Margaret Frazer which I do also. I had thought that Margaret descended from the Michael Line, but the more I look at the DNA, it makes me think that Margaret might descend from the Archibald 1751 Branch where Joanna has herself. If Mollie and Joanna both descend from the Archibald 1751 Branch, then that could explain the large match that Joanna and Mollie have.

Joanna has no additional matches up to the next generation to Archibald born about 1690. He was the father of Archibald and James Frazer – the two Main Lines.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I had meant to go through all the Frazer descedants who I had access to at AncestryDNA and look at their ThruLines. That would take too long, so I’ll go through them at a slower pace.
  • I started looking at Joanna’s ThruLines. Joanna’s matches showed some irregularities, but I would like to look at other Frazer descendant matches to see how they compare.
  • Joanna had matches at the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th cousin levels leading up to James Frazer of Clerragh. [Note: the 4th cousin match was not correct. See my correction in the following Blog.]
  • Joanna had a larger than expected match to Mollie who shows the same mysterious Margaret Frazer ancestor that I have.
  • I am only looking at the DNA here. The genealogy has to be taken into consideration.
  • I am thinking that in the Archibald Branch with all the Frazer cousin matches, that ThruLine analysis could be complicated.
  • I would like to look at Beverly from the James Line next.