More on Emily’s Frazer DNA

In March, I wrote my first Blog about Emily. She is a 2nd cousin, once removed who tested her DNA at MyHeritage. Emily and her daughter Mel who are related to me on my Frazer Line have also uploaded their DNA results to Gedmatch. MyHeritage does not show X Chromosome results but Gedmatch does.

The X Chromosome

The X Chromosome is interesting as it is not inherited from father to son. As a result, when there is an X Chromosome match with someone, it is possible to narrow down where that DNA came from.

Here is how my sisters and I are related to Emily:

Note that cousin Paul got no X Chromosome on his father’s Frazer side. Also Joel, Jon and Jim got no Frazer X Chromosome. That Leaves Emily, Melanie, Heidi, Sharon and Lori.

McMaster DNA from the X Chromosome

A further interesting point is that if Heidi, Sharon, or Lori match Emily by the X Chromosome, then it would have to be from Margaret McMaster, born 1846. How do I know that? Emily got her X from Susan Fairbanks. Susan got hers from Violet Frazer. Violet Frazer got an X from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. However, my sisters got their Frazer X from their dad. He got his only from his mother. Marion Frazer got her Frazer X DNA from her dad. James Frazer got his X DNA only from his mom Margaret McMaster. Therefore if Emily matches Heidi, Sharon, or Lori by X Chromosome, it has to be from Margaret McMaster.

Emily’s X Chromosome Matches with My Sisters

I will just be considering Emily as Melanie got half her DNA from her mother. Here is how Emily matches Lori, Sharon and Heidi on the X:

That means that Lori, Sharon and Heidi each have about 38 cM of DNA from their 2nd great grandmother.

Painting Lori

It is possible to paint or map Lori’s match using a great utility called DNAPainter:

While I’m at it, I’ll map Lori and Emily’s other non-X matches:

The blue side represents Lori’s paternal side and red is her maternal side. The greenis segments represent either George Frazer or Margaret McMaster. We can’t tell which right now. The blue indicates that we know that particular DNA is from Margaret McMaster.

Emily and My Brother Jim

I mentioned Emily and my brother JIm in my previous Blog. Even though Jim was the sixth of six siblings tested in my family, his DNA test showed he had some Frazer DNA that the other five siblings did not have. Jim’s unique Frazer segment is on Chromosome 5 as shown with his match with Emily below:

As shown in the lower left key, Jim’s matches with Emily represent DNA they both have from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster.

Going Back a Generation

Jim also matches Gladys. She is a third cousin once removed. Jim and Gladys’ common ancestors are James Frazer and Violet Frazer. From what I can figure out, these were first cousins that married each other.

This couple in yellow were the parents of George Frazer. What is interesting to note is that the match with Gladys and Jim overlaps the match with Emily and Jim on Chromosome 5. That would be considered triangulation. This indicates that this match is actually from older Frazer DNA. This also tells me that the blue DNA that Jim matched with Emily is actually Frazer and not McMaster DNA.

In theory, the DNA segments that are older should be smaller and more broken up and the DNA segments representing more recent ancestors should be larger. However, the DNA didn’t read that section on DNA theory. In practice, larger segments sometimes get passed down from many generations ago.

Next up: more painting or mapping of Lori and Jimmy’s DNA.

The John Line of the Frazers and Marilee’s DNA

This is a follow-up on a previous Blog I wrote on the John Line. At that time, I found Marilee as a Frazer match at MyHeritage. Marilee has kindly agreed to upload her DNA to Gedmatch where I can compare her results to others in the Frazer DNA Project.

The John Frazer Line

If I have my genealogy right, John was the eldest known son of Archibald Frazer. I have John born around 1755 or 1757. Some researchers have him born as late as 1775. However, that would cause a problem with John’s son who Marilee has as being born in 1779.


Marilee’s Line is on the left. She is the lone known DNA tested person in the line. I have that John had four children. One of them was Archibald who Marilee has as her second great grandfather. Archibald had another John who emigrated. This John would be a pivotal person in the research of the John Frazer Line. The previous research that I have done did not go down from John.

More on John Frazer, Immigrant

Here is what Marilee has to say:

I know my Frazer ancestor emigrated from Ireland in 1850 and settled first in Niagara Falls, Ontario Canada, and then Lockport, New York, which is in Niagara County, New York. 

As I don’t have information on this line, I created a Frazer Tree at Ancestry. Here is Marilee’s grandfather and great-grandfather in the 1870 Census living in Lockport, NY:

Here the name is listed as Fraser.

In 1860, John was a Hotel Keeper:

It looks like John managed a staff of six. It appears from the birth of the children, that the family moved to New York about 1850.

I also found this monument at Ancestry:

The 1855 New York Census shows that the family had been in Lockport for four years:

That means that they would not be in the 1850 US Census and may not be in the Canadian 1851 Census. If Marilee is right and this family emigrated to Ireland in 1850, they wouldn’t have had much time in Canada. However, If John and Sarah had John in 1849 in Canada, they could have emmigrated in 1848 or 1849. Then there is the question of where did John and Sarah marry? I did find one tree that had the couple marrying in Ireland which probably makes sense.

Marilee’s DNA

One of the hopes of DNA testing is that it might shore up our genealogical research or point us in new directions for research. Let’s look at Marilee’s DNA.

Mystery Match With Bob

One of the first things I noticed on Marilee’s match list was a match with Bob. He looked familiar. Here is the match they have:

By DNA, it would look like Bob and Marilee are 2nd cousins once removed. Bob’s great-grandmother was Jane or Jennie McPartland. I have written many blogs on the McPartlands. I’m not sure if they have included Bob. Here is a portion of Bob’s tree at Ancestry:

Here is how Bob is related to other McPartlands:

It is no mystery that Bob is a 2nd cousin to Charlene and 3rd cousin to Karen and Chris. The mystery is why he shows as a pretty close DNA match to Marilee. Perhaps Bob and Marilee are related on a non-Frazer Line? Perhaps the Ann above is a daughter of Marilee’s 2nd great-grandfather Archibald Frazer?

Marilee also matches with Karen here:

For Bob, Karen and Marilee to triangulate, Bon would have to match Karen on Chromosome 7 in th same area. He does:

The closest place that Karen and Bob match are at Owen McPartland and Ann Frazer. As far as I know, Marilee has no McPartland ancestors, so that would point to the Frazer side.

In addition Brian, who I believe is Chris’ brother matches Marilee on Chromosome 7:

Marilee and Bonnie

The next person I notice going down Marilee’s match list is Bonnie. Bonnie is in the James Line of the Frazer DNA Project.

On the Frazer Chart, Bonny and Marilee would be 6th cousins. Here is their DNA match:

This is another mystery. By DNA this connection could indicate a 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin once removed.

A More Rational DNA Approach

So far, I have checked a few random matches for Marilee. These seem to indicate that she matches a McPartland that marred a Frazer and someone on the James Line of the Frazers even though Marilee’s genealogy shows she is on the Archibald Line of the Frazers.

Here is how Marilee matches others on the Archibald Line of the Frazers:

Marilee is on the top row. She matches me and some of my siblings over 15 cM. This could be a Frazer match or possibly a McMaster match. Marilee matches Michael at over 15 cM. She also matches Jamie who has a Frazer/Johnston background.

Here is how Marilee matches Frazer descendants from the James Frazer Line:

As noted above, Marilee has a good match with Bonnie. I notice that there appears to be a Stewart on the Michael Line. Marilee mentioned the Stewart name. Marilee has a pretty good match with Beverly also but a bit more with Charlotte. I note that both Charlotte and Marilee have a Jane White in their ancestry. Apparently two different Jane Whites. Charlotte’s great-grandmother is Ismena Jane White. Marilee has her third great-grandmother as Jane White.

Marilee and Triangulation

If Marilee triangulates with two people that are in the Frazer DNA Project. That means that those three people should have a common ancestor.  Above, I showed that Marilee triangulates with at least two people in the McPartland Group. That means that they have a common ancestor. I checked to see if the two Triangulation Groups (TGs) that Marilee is in has already beenidentified by my previous research. It appears that these are new TGs.

Next, I’ll look at Marilee compared to all the Archibald Line DNA-tested descendants. As I looked through the results, I found one TG:

The TG involves Marilee, Bob, me and my two younger sisters. That means that we have a common ancestor. It would take some fancy guesswork to figure out who that common ancestor is.

I checked also on the James Line for TGs, but didn’t see any.

One Guess on the Marilee, McPartland, Frazer Connection

In a previous Blog, I had supposed that my connection to the McPartland Family could look like this:

Under this scenario, Bob would have been connected to my family – above represented by my sister Heidi. This seems a bit convoluted. However, my second great-grandmother was Margaret McMaster. Her mother was also a McMaster named Fanny. Her mom was Margaret Frazer. I had supposed that Margaret could have been the sister of the Ann Frazer that married Owen McPartland. I further supposed that this Frazer could have been born around 1780. I notice that Marilee’s second great-grandfather was Archibald Frazer born 1779 and married to Jane White.


Above is a possible scenario that could fit the DNA. The clrcles and the lines represent the TG with a possible set of common ancestors. What if my Margaret Frazer was the daughter of Marilee’s Archibald and the sister of the Ann Frazer who married Owen McPartland? That would be one way to tie the families together. That would make Marilee and Bob third cousins, once removed and me and Marilee third cousins three times removed.

Let’s see if that is even possible. Bob and Marilee shared almost 111 cM. Here is part of a chart of ranges of DNA for fourth cousins:

127 is the highest expected match for a fourth cousin. That means that Bob and Marilee would be near the top of that range. My two younger sisters and I matched Marilee at 16 or 17 cM. That is a little below average for a fourth cousin, two times removed. I would be a fourth cousin twice removed to Bob under that above scenario. My two sisters match Bob at about 8 or 9.5 cM.

Perhaps someone will come forward with a more obvious explanation.

Occupants of Derrycastle 1834

Here is the Tithe Applotment for 1834 in Derrycastle:

My guess is that Archy is Marilee’s ancestor. John could have been his brother. William could have been his other brother. George, Philip and James could have been the sons of Philip. I believe that James was my ancestor.

Here is a map of the area:


The Tithe Applotment mentions Archy of Shan which would be Shanvoley. Dereenargan is where the McPartlands lived later. There were also at least one Frazer and McMaster living in Dereenargan at the time of Griffith’s Valuation. I discussed this previously here.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Marilee had a surprising DNA match with Bob – a McPartland/Frazer descendant.
  • Given what we knew of the genealogy, the size of the DNA match did not make a lot of sense
  • Bob, Marilee, and three in my family triangulated which means that we have a common ancestor.
  • I looked at some of my past DNA analysis of the McPartland/Frazer connection and came up with a possible scenario to explain the triangulation. This explanation would have Bob, Marilee and me descending from Marilee’s 2nd great grandfather, Archibald Frazer, born 1779 who married Jane White.
  • This explanation is further supported by the proximity the families. However, the genealogical evidence appears to be lacking.
  • This theory may have other DNA evidence added to it in the future or more genealogical evidence may come to light to disprove my guess or to add weight to it.
  • If I am right in my guess, I would have found my third Frazer line which was missing and the McPartland Frazer Line which was missing.

A New DNA Match in Marilee and a New Frazer Line

I was searching for Frazer matches at MyHeritage recently and came across Marilee. I thought it unlikely that she would be matching on the same Frazer line that I have going back to County Roscommon, Ireland. However, when I looked at her tree, I saw this:

Marilee shows that she descends from John Frazer of Roscommon. Not only does Marilee show that she is related to me, she shows that she is on a Frazer Line that has not been found to be DNA tested yet. That is great news.

Marilee and Frazer Genealogy

The John Frazer Line is shown here in some Frazer research that was done before I was born:

John is shown as the eldest son of Archibald at the top left of the image above. The Frazer DNA Project has people from the Philip, Richard and Archibald Lines, but Marilee is the first from the John Line. This is like finding a lost tribe.

Dating the Archibald Line of the Frazers

The above hand-written tree was done for a coat of arms for a Frazer that was issued in 1952. The birth dates were given for the four brothers as 1757, 1758, 1759 and 1760.  Originally I had followed this early research which had the first known Archibald, born in about 1690 having two sons. The first son was  Archibald who married Mary Lillie and the younger son was James . It was the Archibald who married Mary Lillie that was shown as having the four sons above. Other researchers felt that there needed to be another Archibald in the line for the dates to work out. I added that extra Archibald but never felt all that comfortable doing that. That change also required having later birth dates for the four sons. As a result, perhaps, Marilee’s tree shows John’s first son born when he was two years old!

The Elphin Census of 1749

The first good record I have of North Roscommon Frazers is in the Elphin Census. This is what it shows:

Let’s assume that this represents the situation for the Frazer family in Aghrafinegan, North Roscommon Ireland in 1749. We believe that Archibald had four sons. That means that he had at least four children. The Census shows that Archibald had three children under 14 and none over 14. That makes me believe that these children were on the young side of 14 and that there were children yet to be born .

The Added Archibald

That must be what lead to the researcher’s interpretation that there needed to be another Archibald:

Under this scenario, the Archibald that married Mary Lillie (or Lilly) was not the son of Archibald born around 1690, but his grandson. He was not only the eldest son, but th eldest child.

The One Archibald Scenario – My Preference

There could be many explanations for the Elphin Census. It is possible that none of the children in the Census were the four brothers. That would have to be case if the birth dates of 1757-1760 were right in the early research. Let’s assume under the one Archibald scenario, that Mary Lilly was the mother of all the children. Let’s also say that she may have had children over a time span of 20 years or so. I’ll guess she got married at the age 20 and had children until about the age of 40. I’ll give her 5 years to get married and have three children. That would put their marriage at 1744. I’ll say Archibald was born in 1720 and his brother was born around 1722. If Mary was 20 at the time of her marriage in 1744, then she could have had children until about 1764 or so. If Marilee’s tree is right, then John had a son in 1777. Let’s say John was 22 at the birth of Stuart. That would mean that John would have been born 1755. That is a lot of supposin’, but I would start the four sons’ birth dating at 1755. The other three sons’ births could be spread out between 1755 and 1764 or so.

Further Supposin’

Let’s look at Archibald and James’ parents. Let’s say that Mary was 22 when Archibald was born. I had Archibald born in 1720. That would put her birth at 1698. Then she would have been a 51 year old widow in 1749. Perhaps her husband was two years older than her and was born in 1696. I’ll say he died about 1745 at the age of 49.

John Line Added to the Frazer DNA Tree

This is my tree of the Archibald Branch of Frazers that have had their DNA tested:

Marilee’s eldest John Line is added on the left in pink.  I cut off some of the Archinbald/Stinson Line of the right. I also updated the birth dates for the top two rows. The addition of the John Line to the Frazer DNA Tree is a big deal as the John Line represents 25% of the DNA of these four brothers.

From this tree, Marilee is my 5th cousin once removed. From the configuration of the three, it looks like Marilee’s closest Frazer relative should be a 5th cousin.

I didn’t check Marilee’s genealogy. It wouldn’t hurt for someone to check to see if they come up with the same results she did.

I’m glad I got a new, larger screen on my computer. This is the overall Frazer Project:

This is actually a simplified view as the yellow and blue lines are much bigger. Also the yellow line should be in there three times and the blue line two times. The James line is in white on the right.

Marilee’s DNA

Marilee’s DNA test results are at MyHeritage, so I will only be able to compare her results with those results that I have uploaded to MyHeritage. Let’s see how Marilee compares. I’ll start:

I have a match with Marilee on Chromosome 7 and a small match on Chromosome 20. I can add those to DNA Painter, however, I will have to lower the threshold for the Chromosome 20 match as it is only 6.7 cM.

Here is the view on my DNA Painter Map. I circled the new segments from Marilee that represent Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilly.  Green represents my Hartley side. So on Chromsome 7 and 20, these matches are at important places. They represent where my DNA crossed over from my Frazer Grandmother to my Hartley grandfather.

On Chromosome 20, the brown represents my 2nd great grandparents George Frazer and Margaret McMaster.

Where my DNA goes from brown to mustard could be where my DNA crossover went from McMaster to Frazer. There are other possibilities.

Marilee’s DNA Compared to My Siblings

I didn’t see that Marilee had a match with my sister Heidi. Sharon has a match. Sharon’s match was similar to the match I have with Marilee, except it is a little smaller on Chromosome 7 and I didn’t see a match on Chromosome 20. I didn’t see a match between my brother Jonathan and Marilee. My sister Lori’s match with Marilee appears to be identical with mine.

While I was at it, I checked if my cousin Paul and my more distant cousin Gladys matched Marilee, but they did not. So that is it for the DNA comparison for now. The genealogy part was more interesting than the DNA in this case.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It was great to come upon Marilee through her DNA match. Finding a DNA match with someone from the John Line is like finding a lost tribe or city. I have been looking at the DNA for about three years and Marilee is the first DNA-tested John Frazer Lline descendant that I have found.
  • While looking at the John Line, I also streamlined the Archibald Line by taking out an extra Archibald that was added previously.
  • I see why the extra Archibald was added based on an interpretation of the Elphin Census of 1749. However, I see how that extra Archibald is not needed by another interpretation of the Elphin Census.
  • Marilee matches three out of five in my family. By the tree, we would be 5th cousins, once removed. That is pretty far out for a DNA  match.
  • I am hoping that Marilee will be able to get her DNA uploaded to Then, I can take a look to see how she matches all the people in the Frazer DNA project.

Toni’s DNA and Ancestry on the James Frazer Line

I had previously written a Blog about Toni’s sister Penny here.

Toni’s Genealogy

The genealogy I will be looking at will be for those that have tested their DNA. This simplifies the trees.

This is Toni’s Frazer branch going back to about 1821. William somehow made his way from Ireland to Sacramento, California by 1860:

William was a lumber dealer based on the 1860 Census and others. Here is up and coming Sacramento about 1857:

According to William’s will, he had a son Edward F Frazer who was to inherit his lumber business. The will mentions a deceased daughter Mary A Quinton. It mentions a daughter Angelina in Ireland:

Finally, the will mentions William’s deceased daughter, Margaret “Whiton”

Sadly, Margaret died in 1880 at age 33 of puerperal fever. This was a death related to child birth.

The Larger Picture

Here is one step up from William Fitzgerald:

At this point, the trees start getting less certain. Joanna is very keen on finding out about this branch as are other DNA tested descendants. Note the Mary Ann Quinton noted in the Will in the tree above Clyde and Carol.

Perhaps Mary A Frazer’s daughter Grace Angelina was named for William’s daughter Angelina G.

Here is the whole James Line of known DNA-tested descendants:

Penny and Toni are on the bottom left. They descend from an elder son William, son of Archibald who was an elder son of another Archibald, who was an elder son of James at the top of the Line. It would be nice if the DNA could give us some clues as to whether we are on the right track with this tree.

The  Plan

A simple plan is to see how Toni and Penny match the people on the chart:


I have taken some reported match figures for the different relationships from an ISOGG web page. I would think that the zero matches may be under reported, so the averages may be high. In the table above, I have Carol and Kathy in italics. That is because they are daughters of Clyde and Charlotte, so any DNA they got, they got from their mothers.

When I compare everyone, I see that there are 17 people tested for DNA in the James Line. I had missed Madeline, Charlotte’s sister in my chart above, so I added her.

James Line Autosomal Matrix

The first tool I use at Gedmatch is the Autosomal Matrix. This compares everyone to everyone else in the James Line.

Here I see something interesting. In this matrix, Penny and Toni are matching with the Thomas Line with larger numbers than within the William Line. That is true except for their matches with Jonathan. I should note that the autosomal matrix uses a smaller cutoff than the general matching number of 7 cM.

How do I explain this?

Here is how I filled in my earlier chart:

I can make a few observations:

  • In general, Toni had higher DNA matches with other Frazers than Penny
  • Penny and Toni’s matches within the William Fitzgerald Line are dependent on Clyde.
  • It seems clear from the genealogy that Penny, Toni, Clyde and Carol are all in the William Fitzgerald Frazer Line. That means that Penny and Toni’s closer matches to the Thomas Henry Line are due to the randomness of DNA inheritance.
  • Penny’s matches with the Thomas Line are a little below average. Toni’s matches with those in the Thomas Henry Line are above average.
  • Toni and Penny’s matches with all others in the James Frazer Line are below average, including within their own William Fitzgerald Line.
  • All matches are within reported matching ranges.

Triangulating in the James Frazer Line

Triangulation Groups are where three or more people’s DNA match each other on the same segment. This should result in a common ancestor. I need to do a major overhaul on the James Line Triangulation Groups (TGs), as I haven’t looked at them in a while.

Chromosome 1

Here *B is Betty on the chart below.

This TG appears to confirm that Achibald born about 1792 (or his unknown wife) is the common ancestor for Toni, Betty and Joanna.

Chromosome 2 and 4: Bonnie, Judy and Gary

This is like one TG that was broken up, so it is now two. Bonnie has an interruption in her match between about position 6 and 10M.


Here is a TG with the same people in Chromosome 4:

This TG is from 110 to 123M at a minimum. This brings up and interesting point as there is already a TG on the Archibald side from 11-115M.

How can this be? This could be for many reasons. There is a 50% chance that the Judith/Bonnie/Gary TG could be a Charlotte Davidson TG. That would be the most obvious explanation. The other would be that the Archibald Line TG is a Stinson TG. There are other possibilities.

A TG at Chr 5 and 7?

I questioned this because Madeline and Charlotte are sisters:

Normally sisters are not included in TGs, but here Kathy who is Charlotte’s daughter is included. I would normally include an aunt and a niece in a TG. Plus this shows that if Kathy inherited the segment from her mom, that it is likely to be a valid match.

We have the same situation at Chromosome 7:

I think it’s a valid TG. I’m not sure if everyone would agree with me.

Chr 12, 15, and 16 Frazer or Davidson?


Without further information (matches) it is not possible to know if these are Frazer or Davidson TGs as discussed above.

Chr 14 TG

This TG is clearer:

This is quite a long-range TG. It goes all the way back to James Frazer (or his wife). There are other possibilities, but the one I drew seems the most obvious. For example, what if the Archibald  born 1792 married a Knott. Then the most recent common ancestor could be a Knott in the generation after James Frazer. At any rate, the fact that Toni is in the TG means that Gary and Judith should not be matching each other on the Davidson side – assuming Toni has no Davidson ancestors.

TG 16

I think I’m getting near the end. This is a four person TG including siblings Joanna and Jonathan.

This is also a James Line TG. That explains why the matches with Beverly are smaller than the ones between Toni, Joanna and Jonathan. Beverly is a 5th cousin to Joanna and Jonathan and a 5th cousin once removed to Toni. However, Toni is a third cousin once removed to Joanna and Jonathan.

A TG Summary

We now have a good collection of TGs for the James Line:



The two dark lavender TGs at the bottom go over to the Archibald Line. TG15C includes Paul and TG 17B includes Doug.

The orange looking TGs could be Davidson or Frazer TGs as discussed above. Other than the orange TGs there are no TGs that appear to be specifically Frazer/Knott or Michael Frazer (b 1764) TGs. Beverly is in two TGs, but neither one is in the Frazer/Knott group.

Toni’s DNA testing resulted in five new TGs. The Frazer/Peyton group seems more well-behaved as far as the TGs. That group has TGs that are just within what we have as the Frazer/Peyton Line and wihtin the Achibald 1792 Line below that.  Toni is a good example of why siblings get their DNA tested. Her sister Penny was not in any of the five TGs that Toni was in.

Summary and Conclusions

  • William Fitzgerald Frazer made his way accross the world from Ireland to Sacramento, CA to start a Lumber business and raise children
  • Without understanding of the genealogy and the randomness of DNA inheritance, it might seem that Toni belonged in Joanna’s line (Thomas Henry Frazer) rather than the William Fitzgerald Frazer Line that she is in.
  • William’s second great-granddaughter Toni took a DNA and matched many other Frazers that descended from the James Line of Frazers
  • Toni’s DNA testing resulted in five new Triangualation Groups
  • Those TGs have shored up the genealogy of the Line of Frazers that descend from William’s Irish father and grandfather.
  • In addition, Toni is in two TGs that appear to indicate a common ancestor with James Frazer going back all the way back to about 1720.
  • I identified a new group of 5 TGs that could be either Frazer or Davidson TGs.

Frazer-Johnston DNA and Genealogy: Part Two

In my previous Blog on the Frazer-Johnston connection, I looked at John’s DNA results. Recently John told me he had uploaded his sister Jamie’s DNA results to Gedmatch.

The Frazer-Johnston Connection on the Frazer/Stinson Line

John and Jamie are in the light blue. This is a good Frazer line as there are some on the line that are in other Frazer lines such as Jane, Michael and the yellow group. John and Jamie as well as the purplish line, Cathy and the bright green line are represent people that are believed to be in the Archibald/Stinson Line only. That gives some surety in what the DNA matches might mean. However, it could result in smaller DNA matches. There is a tradeoff.

The Johnston-Frazer connection is quite old. At the top of the blue line is a Mary Frazer born at the end of the 1700’s. She married William Johnston born about 1790. Having any information from Irish records before 1800 is considered great. I have more detailed genealogical information in my previous Blog.

Let’s Jump Into Jamie’s DNA

Well, not literally. The results are a little surprising:

Jamie is on the row below the top of the solid box in the bottom right. That box represents those that are only in the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line. This shows that Jamie does not match anyone that is just in that line other than her brother John.  Jamie’s largest match is with Richard who I believe to be the only one that is only in the Philip Line.

We can look at the Jamie/Richard match when I look at the specific matches later. However, there are a few explanations for the match as I see it now:

  • Jamie and Richard would be 5th cousins, once removed through the Frazer side. That is pretty far out. The further out the relationship is, the more random the match is. That is likely why Richard and Jamie have a 31.6 cM match as 5th cousin once removed and why Jamie wouldn’t have a match with some of her 4th cousins that are in the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line.
  • A second reason would be that Jamie could be matching on a line we don’t know about. We don’t know who the wife of Philip was. Also Jamie doesn’t know the name of the mother of the William Johnston that married Jane Frazer in 1815. I noted in a previous blog that a later Philip Frazer, married a Jane Johnston also in 1815.

Moving across, we see that Jamie matches Emily and Paul who would not be in the Frazer/Stinson Line. However the same reasons apply for them as applied to Richard. Note also that Emily and Paul are of the same generation as Richard, so more likely to match. Here is the whole Archibald Line:

Paul is at the bottom of the third blue column. Emily is shown to the left of Paul in the above image.

Dancing with DNA

Here are Jamie’s specific matches with those in the Archibald Line of the Frazer DNA Project:


I tried to put the matches into the appropriate Frazer Lines. Jamie has more matches with those in the Stinson Line. However, Jamie has higher matches with those that are not in the Stinson Line. Anywhere Jamie matches more than one person on a segment, there is a possibility of triangulation. Ir looks like Jamie could triangulate on every chromosome above except for Chromosome 12 with Paul.

Frazer Triangulation

Triangulation should mean common ancestors. This trouble is figuring out who those common ancestors are. As this is a Frazer project, and we all have Frazer ancestry, the assumption is that the common ancestor is a Frazer. However, there are other possibilities.


This TG can be shown like this:

The theory is that this TG points to either Archibald Frazer or Ann Stinson. Not both. However, we don’t know which unless there is a match to a Frazer that is not related to a Stinson or a Stinson that is not related to a Frazer. I have a spreadsheet that has a compilation of TGs and the triangualtion above I have previously named TG03C. So I added Jamie to that group.


This is a TG I had found when I looked at Richard’s results. Unless there is some other connection, this TG appears to go all the way back to Archibald born about 1743 or his wife Mary Lilley.

Note that my sister Lori and I are in the Philip Line as well as the Richard LIne. I didn’t put us in the Richard Line to save space. The same with Michael. Only his first ancestor in the Stinson Line is showing in peach color. It is tempting to think that I am matching Richard on the Philip Line and Michael is matching Jamie on the Stinson Line, but that is only one possibility.

More About Chromosome 17

Here is my TG Spreadsheet for Chromosome 17.

I’ve squished it together a bit so it would show better. Note that Doug is in a purple TG with Bonnie and Beverly. Bonnie and Beverly are on the more distant James Line. I also note that Richard matches Doug from 70-74M on Chromosome 17. So something is going on here between the Frazer Lines.

Let’s look at this from Richard’s viewpoint. Here are his matches on Chromosome 17:

This shows that Richard has a large match with Michael. Interesting, but confusing.

A New TG Chromosome 18

This is a little like the previous TG. Is the DNA trying to tell us something? It seems to be saying that there may be a connection the Philip and Archibald/Stinson Lines that we don’t know about. Or, it is just a good match up to the Archibald born in the 1740’s and his wife Mary Lilley.


Here Jamie is added to an existing TG.

Triangulation Group Summary for Jamie


This spreadsheet accentuates what I have been trying to explain in this Blog. It seems like John and Emily have an affinity for the left side of the spreadsheet and not so much for the Stinson side. This could be by chance. However, there could be other explanations. What if Philip who we think may have been born in 1776 married a Johnston? That would tie these families together – I think.


Here I tried out my theory. I had a feeling that Michael would not fit in to this cinfiguration. However, his match with Jamie was small at 7.6 cM and could be the one that goes up to the Archibald born in the 1740’s. The tree above seems to fit the DNA. However, I’m sure there could be another explanation.

Here is another, simpler explanation. Under this scenario, Philip did not have to marry a Johnston. This would have Mary as Philip’s daughter instead of Archibald’s. This would require some rejiggering of the genealogy.

The above seems to fit the DNA better, but remember that DNA can be fickle.

My Two Laws of Genetic Genealogy

After looking at genetic genealogy for several years, I have come up with two laws:

  1. The DNA is trying to outsmart you. The matches you have are generally not on the ancestors that you were expecting.
  2. Your ancestors are messing with you. They married relatives and did other things to intentionally confuse us to keep us from figuring out their genealogy.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Jamie’s results gave some different results from her brother John. This is normal and is one reason why we test siblings.
  • Jamie’s DNA results showed no clear affinity for the Archibald/Stinson Line. This could be due to chance DNA inheritance or other reasons
  • I gave two guesses as to the other reasons. One was that Philip born about 1776 may have married a Johnston. The other reason is that the Mary Frazer that married William Johnston could have been a daughter of Philip Frazer rather than Archibald Frazer. I like this option as it seems to explain the DNA matches.
  • There may be other explanations. As always, more DNA testing could bring in more answers.


More on Emily and Melanie’s Frazer DNA

In my last Frazer DNA Blog, I wrote about Melanie and Emily’s DNA match at MyHeritage. I was really hoping that Melanie would upload their DNA to gedmatch for a proper comparison and she did. I hope that I wasn’t too annoying in my asking.

A Frazer Photo Identified

How often is it that you have a photo that is over 100 years old and someone is able to identify it? That is what Emily was able to do with this photo:

I had always assumed that these were all Frazers in front of their house in Ballindoon. Here is Emily’s comment:

 The photograph of the group outside Ballindoon is obviously my grandmothers wedding. I have never seen it before and love it. I never saw a photo of my grandfather James Fairbanks. He died when my mother Susan was three years old.

That’s great collaboration. Emily’s grandmother was Violet Frances Frazer in the white. Her husband is between my 2nd great grandmother Margaret McMaster Frazer and Violet. This is a good example of collaboration. Even though it is sad that James Faribanks died young, I am glad to know who he is in the photo. And Emily is very glad. I can only guess that this photo was mailed to my great-grandfather James Archibald Frazer who was Violet’s older brother in the US. Now, over 100 years later, the photo has gone back from the US to Ireland over the internet to be identified by Violet’s granddaughter.

Frazer Trees and DNA

In my last Blog on Emily and Melanie, I showed this tree of DNA-tested descendants of the older couple in the photo above. The addition of this branch is a big help in the Frazer DNA Project.

That group in turn are part of a James Frazer/Violet Frazer tree which is part of a Philip Frazer tree:

Philip is part of the Archibald Branch of the Frazer Tree. He is one of two brothers (the other being James) that we first have a record of in Aghrafinigan, North County Roscommon in 1749.

The above represents the Archibald line on the left in color and the James Line on the right uncolored. The Archibald side is a bit out of date and is difficult to portray as some DNA testers descend from more than one line due to Frazer cousin marriages. For example, the single blue line on the left above is meant to represent the Philip Line. This also has other branches. However, the yellow group in the Philip Line are also in two other Frazer Lines. This makes for interesting genealogy and more interesting DNA results.

Emily and Melanie’s DNA at Gedmatch

Emily, as Melanie’s mom, gave half of her DNA in general to Melanie. That means that Emily has about twice as much Frazer DNA compared to her daughter. For that reason, I will be looking at Emily’s results rather than Melanie’s.

Before, I start with the DNA, I need to mention that Emily and Melanie are part of the Richard Frazer Line also:

That is because Violet, the daughter of Richard Frazer at the top of the chart married James Frazer who I believe to be a son of Philip Frazer. That would mean that they would be first cousins. David on the left of the chart was added due to DNA matches. Jane was also. Assuming that David is placed correctly, he is important to this line being the only one that is not also known to be in another Frazer Line. In the Philip Line above, Richard is the one not in another line.

Emily and the All Archibald Line Comparison

I like to compare people to all others in a project and then see how the DNA sorts out. I’ll do that first with the Archibald Line of Frazers as there are too many in the whole project.

The Archibald Frazer Autosomal Matrix

I like this matrix, because it is fairly easy to interpret. The higher the number, the closer the relationship.

I have highlighted Emily in blue. Looking across from Emily, her highest match is with Paul. Paul and Emily are 2nd cousins. That means that they share the same great-grandparents: George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Here are some autosomal statistics from the ISOGG Web Page:

An average amount of DNA that two 2nd cousins might share would be 233 cM. Paul and Emily share 289 cM which is well within reported ranges. My siblings and I match Emily as 2nd cousins once removed. All of our matches are below the average of 123. They range from a low of 47 to a high of 107. By the way, the autosomal matrix uses a smaller cutoff for DNA matches so these matches will be a bit higher than if you do a one to one match at Gedmatch.

Emily matches Gladys at 127 cM. This is quite high considering the two are third cousins. After that, Emily matches Doreen, 3rd cousin once removed at 73 cM. The average, above is 48. (When I run a ‘one to one’ match between the two, the result is a bit smaller at 68 cM.) Overall, Emily’s autosomal matrix results are not surprising. She matches Richard who I believe is a litmus test for the Philip Line. They would be 4th cousins once removed. Emily does not match David, believed to be a litmus test for the Richard Line.

In the Stinson Line, Emily matched her 5th cousin Cathy at 24 cM and her 5th cousin, once removed Ros from Australia at 17 cM.

Triangulating Emily’s DNA

Triangulating means finding three people that match each other on the same segment of DNA. When this happens there is almost always a common ancestor involved. I already have a list of Frazer Triangulation Groups or TGs. Emily will be in some that have already been found and may form a new TG or TGs.

The first TG that Emily is in, is in Chromosome 1. This is a popular TG:

Note that Michael and Jane are in this TG (TG01C). Michael and Jane do not descend from Philip, so this must be a Richard TG. This further means that the DNA that Heidi, Jon, Lori, Emily, Paul, Gladys, and Bill share came down to them through Violet Frazer and not her cousin James as Violet was Richard’s son.

That is one huge TG. Another possibility for this TG would be through the Frazer/Stinson Line. However, Heidi, Jon, Lori, Emily and Paul do not descend from that line, so that possibility is unlikely.

A New TG On Chromosome 2

I’m still modifying my TG Summary Chart:

This TG02B includes Emily, Paul and Gladys. They all descend from James and Violet Frazer.

Note that these three are third cousins to each other. This means that because Gladys is in this TG, the DNA that Emily and Paul Share in this TG is not McMaster DNA (from Margaret McMaster) but Frazer DNA. Also, the TGs that are just in yellow descend from James and Violet Frazer as shown. However, as there are no matches with those in the Richard line where Violet comes from, there is more of a chance that these would be James Frazer TGs.

New TG – Chromosome 6

This TG06A is squeezed in at the beginning of Chromosome 6 before the existing TG. These TGs can be difficult to interpret. Note that Doreen is in both TGs. If Jane is in a TG, that represents the Richard Line or Violet Frazer. If she is not in the TG it implies that the TG could represent the Philip Line or James Frazer.

TG Chromosome 8

Emily seems to be joining an existing TG.

This looks to be a sliding TG. That means, that it could be a longer TG, but not all the people in the TG are in all parts of it. Emily’s TG is actually a little further along on this Chromosome and only with Emily, Paul and Vivien. Either that or Gladys and Bill are still in it, but matching at lower cMs. I know, confusing.

Unless there is a connection on other than a Frazer Line, then this TG goes back to about 1743 when we believe Archibald was born. Gladys should be on this tree also in the yellow section, but I haven’t built it out all the way yet.

Chromosome 9 – An Old and a New TG

I had TG09B in green and changed it to yellow. I added a TG09C which has the same people except for Doreen and Bill. These yellow TGs seem to come from James or Violet Frazer based on the genealogy of the people in the TGs.

Chromosome 18

Emily joins an existing TG:

A lot of people seem to have made room on this Chromosome for James or Violet Frazer. Here is a map of Chromosome 18 with 4 of my 5 mapped siblings:

Heidi (H), Joel (J) and Sharon (S) are in the TG from 35-52. Those are the positions on the map above where Sharon, Heidi and I got Frazer DNA. My brother Jonathan (F) got Hartley DNA on his paternal side in that segment. That is why he isn’t in the TG. The same is true for Lori.

A similar positioning of DNA would explain why others from the group are in or not in this TG and other TGs.

The Mystery of My Chromosome 20 Further Revealed

In my previous Blog on Emily and Melanie, I noted that they helped reveal a mystery I have had with my Chromosome 20 ever since I have been looking at my DNA. Emily and Melanie matched on Chromosome 20 where I have hundreds of other unidentified matches. Emily and Melanie were the first good matches I was able to link to a related Frazer. Now, it appears I also have a TG there.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to find TGs:

In this TG, I see Emily in blue, then Jonathan, Lori, Heidi and Joel are me and my siblings. Then there is John. John recently contacted me and I wrote a Blog about him here. I had lost John in my TG spreadsheet when Excel crashed. Now he is back in.

Here is John over in the Frazer/Stinson Line.

Mystery solved. Apparently. These results are a bit controversial. Some believe in areas where you have too many matches, it is not possible to determine a common ancestor. Others believe that it is possible. I have found at least three out of the hundreds that have a common ancestor.

Here is some more mapping of my Chromosome 20:

The green segments show large areas available for Frazer matches.

Emily and the James Line DNA

I know the Blog is a bit long, but one last topic. How does Emily match the more distantly related James Line?

Emily matches CJ (Charlotte) and Jonathan from the James Line on Chromosome 5:

This is interesting, because it looks like a TG, but it isn’t. CJ would have to match Jonathan for this to be a TG and they don’t match each other. This could mean one of two things:

  • One or both of the matches is a false match or
  • Emily may match one person on her maternal side and one on her paternal side. It happens. This is a big reason why TGs are used.

Emily matches Beverly on Chromosome 19:

Summary and Conclusions

  • There was one thing that I did not find. I hoped to find some triangulation with Richard, my family, Emily and Paul. That would have indicated a common Philip line ancestor. The matches between Richard, Paul, my family and Emily seemed pretty well spread out which made triangulation not possible.
  • One of my favorite photos from Ballindoon has been identified making it much more meaningful.
  • Emily added a third DNA branch to the George Frazer/Margaret McMaster Line. This branch has been pretty lonely for the last 4-1/2 years.
  • Emily’s matches with others in the Archibald Line of the Frazer Project did add evidence to past work on the Frazer DNA Project. For example, her matches with the Philip and Richard Frazer branches confirm the people that are in those branches.
  • Emily’s triangulation with my family and John, who recently joined the Frazer DNA group,  verified a common ancestor on Chromosome 20. That is an area in my family where we have hundreds of matches.

Emily and Melanie’s Frazer DNA from Ballindoon

Emily and Melanie are important matches for me at MyHeritage. From their family tree there, they show that they descend from George William Frazer and Margaret McMaster – the same as I do. Several years ago, I tested the DNA of my 2nd cousin once removed Paul who also descends from the same couple. I have also tested my siblings. Now we have another branch from George and Margaret. From what I can tell, Emily and Melanie are here:

They descend from Violet Frances Frazer born 1872 in Ballindoon. Violet Frances is an interesting name. This name could be from her two grandparents. Her dad’s mom was Violet Frazer (yes, a cousin to her dad’s dad from what I can tell). Violet’s mother’s mom was Fanny or Frances McMaster – also a cousin to her mom’s dad. Yikes.

It looks like Melanie has this photo which I got from a visit to Ballindoon:

Here is what I have from my web page.

    •     25.  i.   JAMES ARCHIBALD6 was born on 8 Jan 1867 at Ballindoon, Parish Killadoon, Co. Sligo. He married Margaret Clark, daughter of Thomas Clarke and Jane Spratt, on 5 Oct 1892 at Boston, MA. He married Maud Alice Rayne, daughter of George Rayne and Margaret Ross, on 28 Jun 1905 at Medford, MA. He died on 2 Apr 1940 at 26 Montrose Street, Boston, at age 73. He was buried on 4 Apr 1940 at Forest Hills Cemetery.
    •     26.  ii.   WILLIAM was born on 14 Mar 1868 at Sligo, Ireland. He married Amanda Skoog, daughter of John O. Skoog and Elsa Benson, on 29 Nov 1910 at Boston, Suffolk, Massachusetts. He was buried on 13 Apr 1950 at Kilmactranny Parish, Sligo, Ireland.
    •       x.   GEORGE RUSSELL was born on 15 Apr 1870 at Sligo, Ireland. He was baptized on 26 Jun 1870 at Kilmactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland.
    •     29.  v.   VIOLET FRANCES was born on 14 Jul 1872 at Sligo, Ireland. She married James Fairbanks.
    •     28.  iv.   RICHARD was born circa 1875 at Ireland. He married Elizabeth Lenore Rice, daughter of Ivory Fogg Rice and Mary McCartee, on 12 May 1902 at Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
    •     30.  vi.   HUBERT ALEXANDER was born on 6 Jan 1878 at Ireland. He married Annie McKinnon, daughter of Daniel McKinnon and Christine McRury, on 5 Jun 1917 at Medford, Massachusetts. He died on 12 Dec 1954 at Quincy at age 76. He was buried on 14 Dec 1954 at Mount Wollaston Cemetery.
    •     27.  iii.   GEORGE was baptized on 12 Oct 1879 at Kilmactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland. He married Annie Craig. He died at Derrycashel. He was buried on 29 Jul 1960 at Kilbryan church yard, Roscommon, Ireland.
    •     32.  ix.   JOHN EDWARD was born in Mar 1882 at Ireland. He married Waitie Covell. He married Margaret Lillie McMaster, daughter of Hubert McMaster and Eliza Neary, on 13 Dec 1917 at Kilmactranny Church of Ireland, Sligo, Ireland. He died on 27 Mar 1970 at Marlboro, Massachusetts. He was buried on 30 Mar 1970 at Maplewood Cemetery, Marlboro.
    •     31.  viii.   DAVID was born on 8 May 1884 at Ireland. He married Annie E. Gray. He died on 27 May 1953 at 8 Howe St., Milton, at age 69. He was buried on 29 May 1953 at Forest Hills.
    •       vii.   SUSAN JANE was born in 1887 at Ballindoon, Sligo, Ireland. She married Edward Crawford on 4 Apr 1918 at Kilimactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland; Moved to Northern Ireland.

For some reason, my web page list of siblings was all out-of-order. George Russel must have died young. That leaves nine children. My great-grandfather James was in Boston in 1887. That leaves eight. Other than the father and the mother I am having trouble figuring out who is who.

Here is a photo from Boston:

  • My grandfather is seated on the left – James Archibald
  • That must be William seat on the right. He married in Boston and moved back to Ireland.
  • The man standing in the middle appears to be the oldest of the three in the back row. That could make him Richard b. 1875
  • The man of the right could be Hubert Alexander b 1878. He would be Paul’s grandfather.
  • I don’t think George ever came to the US

That still leaves a bit of confusion. One problem is that my web page has John Edward born March 1882. However, the Ireland Census shows him born about 1889:


Assuming the top photo had the youngest boys and the two girls that would make this a possibility:

I believe I have George and Hubert reversed. If I am right, that would put this photo at about 1896 or 1897. Violet married about 4 years later at Kilmactranny Parish Church:

Just to confuse things, here is another photo that I rescanned today. This was apparently taken at a later date.

Emily’s DNA

By the chart at the top of the Blog, Emily and I should be 2nd cousins once removed. MyHeritage predicts that we would be 3rd or 4th cousins, so we must share less DNA than average. Here is how my match looks with Emily.

All my matches are on Chromosomes 17-20. This represents DNA that came down to both Emily and me from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Here is what it looks like when I add these segments to my Chromosome map:

My Frazer matches are on my paternal side which is at the top of each chromosome. The matches representing George Frazer and Margaret McMaster are in a teal color.

The Mystery of Chromosome 20

When I first looked at my DNA matches, I was frustrated at the number of matches on my Chromolsome 20. There was a utility at the time that would give a graphic representation of your matches.

The light blue represented my Chromsome 20 matches. Even though Chromosome 20 is one of the smallest chromosome, I had most of my matches there. In January 2016, I wrote a Blog about this. At the time, I was learning how to do Visual Phasing. That is figuring out which grandparent you got your DNA from on each chromosome. I was surprised to find out that these matches were through my Frazer grandparent line. That didn’t mean that all the matches were Frazers, but they did in my case go through my Frazer grandmother. For example, they may be McMaster, Clarke, Spratt or other unknown matches to some of my grandmother’s ancestors.

Emily and Melanie Seem to Be the Key

One of my largest matches with Emily was on Chromosome 20. My only match with Melanie was on Chromosome 20. Finally,  after over two years, I have an actual match that I connect genealogically to my family.

Emily’s Match with Paul

I have had four of my siblings tested for DNA, but I have not uploaded their results to MyHeritage. They are all at Gedmatch where I have done a lot of work on analyzing Frazer DNA. I have, however, uploaded my cousin Paul’s DNA to MyHeritage.

Here is how MyHeritage shows the predicted relationship between Emily and Paul based on DNA:

Paul and Emily are actually 2nd cousins, so that would be right in the middle of what MyHeritage predicted. Here is how Emily and Paul match on a chromosome browser:

This is DNA that Emily and Paul share originating from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. So about half of this DNA on average would be from each great grandparent.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was glad to find two Frazer relatives that had their DNA tested.
  • These relatives descend from the younger sister of my great-grandfather. Her name was Susan Frances Frazer. I believe I have identified her in a photo.
  • Although my DNA match levels were less than average for Emily and Melanie, I was able to place them in a huge group of matches that has previously had no identified matches.
  • If Emily and Melanie upload their DNA results to Gedmatch, I will be able to add them to the Frazer DNA Project Group for further comparison with that group
  • I have uploaded more of my kits to MyHeritage in the meantime to see how they match with Emily and Melanie

Richard and a Frazer DNA Breakthrough: Part Two

In my previous Blog, I introduced Richard and his connection to the Frazer DNA Project by genealogy and DNA. In this Blog, I would like to take a look at Richard’s DNA at There, I can see where the matches are specifically on which chromosome and on which part of the chromosome.

Richard and the Philip Line

I had surmised that I and some others were part of the Philip Frazer Line. Philip Frazer was probably born about 1776 in North Roscommon, Ireland in an area called Aghrafinigan – or more specifically Derrycastle.

Derrycastle (or Derrycashel) is at the top center of the map and is in the Parish of Ardcarn whcih is at the lower right of the map. County Sligo is just above the map. Kilmactranny Church, where Philip’s children were baptized is in County Sligo. Here is an early marriage of Philip Frazer from the Kilmactranny Parish Church:

Nov 22, 1818    Philip Frazer  of Ardcarne parish

Jane Johnston  of Kilmactranny

Witnesses:  Edw. Johnston,   Edw. Johnston

I am not sure if this Philip is the elder Philip or his son. However, it clearly shows that Philip was of Ardcarn Parish and his wife Jane Johnston was of Kilmactranny Parish.

I had been wondering where some of the other descendants of Philip Frazer were. Richard has come forward as one of those descendants. Here is my proposed DNA tree of Philip descendants:


Richard is in the green line. I am on the bluish line on the right. The yellow line, like Richard’s Line ended up in Ontario. That would make Richard a 4th cousin once removed to Gladys and Paul. That is, assuming that we have the tree right. If I call Philip born 1776 generation one, the green and yellow lines moved from Ireland to North America in generation three. My line moved to Boston in generation four.

Richard’s DNA Compared to the Frazer DNA Project

The Project is getting large, so first I’ll compare Richard to the Archibald Line of the Project. Archibald Frazer was born around 1743.

And What a Matrix It Is

Here is a matrix of the Archibald Line Descendants:

Part of the trick with these matrices is getting the headings right. Descendants of single line Frazer Branches are in short supply. We think that Richard descends from the Philip Line only. That is one reason his results are so important. My branch descends from Philip and Richard. The group in the middle descend from Philip, Richard, and Archibald. That gets confusing. Michael and Jane descend from Richard and Archibald. David is not sure how he fits in, but by DNA, he seems to be in the Richard Line only. The group on the right only descend from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. I could have drawn another box for the Archibald Line going to Patricia, but it would have been too confusing and David, who I think is just in the Richard Line should not be in that box.

As Philip is the eldest brother and Richard is the only one that descends from only Philip, he is listed first. Looking across Richard’s DNA match results, they look reasonable. Richard’s matches with those in the Philip Line are higher and the matches with those that are not in the Philip line are smaller. This is true except for Richard’s match with Michael. There they have a larger than average match. Michael and Richard would be 5th cousins, once removed through the father of Philip.

Here are some matching numbers from the ISOGG web page:

This shows that Richard and Michael could be within reported levels of cMs for 5C1R. I see that Richard’s 4C1R matches are a bit above average and his 5C matches are a bit below average.

Here is how Richard and Michael match each other:

Richard and Michael may want to share notes to see if there could be connections in their family trees other than through the Archibald Frazer Line.

I checked Richard and Gary against the DNA of the James line but only found some matches just below the 7 cM threshold.

Richard’s Detailed DNA Analysis and Triangulation Groups (TGs)

Triangulation Groups are a bit of a holy grail for some genetic genealogists. These are important in trying to establish common ancestors. These TGs form when three or more people match on the same segment of the same chromosome. These three should be more distantly related than siblings.

I find the TGs by looking at the detailed matches between all the DNA tested people in the Archibald Line of the Frazer DNA Project. These segments are a bit different than the ones in the Matrix above. There is a lower threshold for the Matrix, so the detailed match criteria of 7 cM is a bit more stringent.

Here are Richard’s matches:

In order for Richard to be in a TG, he has to match someone more than once along the same segment. I can see that happens at Chromosome 10 with Doreen, Susan and Ken. However, these three are siblings. Then in Chromosome 17, Richard matches Michael, Joel and Lori. That is an interesting twist, as I was hoping for an all-Philip Line descendant TG.

A Chromosome 17 TG

The TG looks like this in table form:


  • Richard matches Michael from 53-72M
  • Richard matches Joel and Lori from 57-79M
  • Michael matches Joel and Lori from 57-70M

Here is how the TG may look on a tree:

This is a simplified tree as it doesn’t show the yellow line under Philip Frazer. In addition, the yellow line is missing a lot of DNA testers. Richard is on the bottom left in green. My family is in blue. Michael is in the salmon color under the Richard Line. Michael is also shown partially in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line. That is why I drew a circle in the area of the Archibald/Stinson line. This depiction shows the common ancestors of Archibald Frazer and Mary Lillie. However, we don’t know the wives of Philip or Richard. What if these two wives were sisters? Then the parents of these two sisters could also be the common ancestors of Michael, Richard, Joel and Lori.

Don’t Worry, Things Will Get Worse Before They Get Better

I had a junior high school science teacher that liked to say, ‘Don’t worry, things will get worse before they get better’. Perhaps it is that way with the DNA. This TG17 did point out one mistake that I had on my Kitty Munson Chromosome map.

Before I knew better, I had mapped position 57-70M to Richard Frazer. That was based on my match with Michael and our common ancestry of Richard Frazer. From what I know now, that is probably not correct. The Richard of this Blog probably does not descend from Richard Frazer born about 1777. A better guess at this time would be Archibald Frazer born about 1743. Now that is going back quite a way.

This is more accurate – for now:

A Surprise TG with Gary at Chromosome 7

In my last Blog, I had mentioned Gary. Gary had a pretty good Acheson tree. Some of his family were from the same area that my Frazer family was from around Lough Arrow in Southern County Sligo. Gary also showed up as a shared Match between me and Richard. Here is what the TG looks in table form:

This is perhaps easier to see from the viewpoint of Gary’s matches:

These are Gary’s matches with:

  1. Richard
  2. Paul
  3. Susan
  4. Joel
  5. Ken
  6. Lori

Remember that a TG shows common ancestry. Who do Richard, Paul, Susan, Joel, Ken and Lori have in common? That would be Philip born aboiut 1776 and his unknown wife. Here is the situation we have:

This means that it is likely that Gary has a connection with the Philip Line (or a Philip Line ancestor). As we have not come across Gary before in the Frazer project, that could mean that the common ancestor would more likely be

on Philip’s wife’s side. This is one of those cases where the DNA gets ahead of the genealogy.

We don’t want to leave Michael out of this. Michael matches Gary on a different Chromosome – Chromosome 22:

All these DNA matches are food for thought. They can be used to direct research energies.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Comparing Richard’s DNA to others in the Archibald Line shows an affinity to those who descend from Archibald’s son Philip born about 1776. I believe that Richard’s paper trail to Philip Frazer is a little better than mine. The DNA connection gives me more confidence that placing myself and the other Frazer shown in yellow on the DNA tree was the right thing to do.
  • One exception in Richard’s DNA matches was Michael. As far as we know, Michael does not descend from the Philip Line.  That would mean Richard and Michael’s DNA connection may go back to Archibald Frazer born 1743. Another possibility is that there is a connection between the family of Richard Frazer’s unknown wife and Philip Frazer’s unknown wife.
  • I was hoping to see some triangulation within the Philip Line. That did not happen, but further testing of other’s in Richard’s line may result in triangulation.
  • I find it interesting that Richard and I have been on parallel genealogical research paths. Both those paths have led back to a common ancestor – Philip Frazer – who was born in Aghrafinigan, North Roscommon around 1776.

Richard and a Frazer DNA Breakthrough: Part One

Richard contacted me recently as he had seen my web page on my Frazer ancestors. He had seen some similarities between my Frazers and the names and places of Ontario Frazer ancestors he was researching and wondered if his Frazer ancestors matched with mine.

Here are some of the people that Richard has been researching. I have quoted Richard below in part:

Eliza Frazer, b. in Ireland on December 11, 1827 per 1901 Canada Census, having immigrated to Canada in 1842.

Ann Frazer, b. in Ireland about October 1832.  No record to date of Ann’s birthplace or parents.  She married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland) in 1853, probably in Brant or Oxford counties, Ontario.

Rebecca Frazer, b. 1837 in Ireland, d. 1877 in Huron County Ontario.  Rebecca lived with Ann Frazer Johnston and Robert Johnston in 1861, as did Robert’s employee William Geddes.   Rebecca married William Geddes in 1865.  Their marriage record lists Rebecca’s parents as Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor.

George James Frazer/Fraser, b. July 6 1841 in County Sligo, Ireland.  No record yet of date of immigration.  George is listed in the 1861 Canada Census in Woodstock, Oxford County, Ontario, occupation school teacher.  George married Jane Burgess (daughter of William Burgess and Elizabeth Ann Watt) of Woodstock in 1863 in Paris, Brant County, Ontario.  The marriage record lists George’s parents as Philip Fraser and Mary Gray.

One interesting thing is that all these Frazers had children except Rebecca. Eliza, Ann and George all named their first child Philip. Richard guessed that Eliza was the one I had on my Frazer Web Page and that Ann and Rebecca were sisters. Richard descends from Ann who “…married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland)…”

My initial guess was that all these four were siblings.

A Reassessment of the Philip Frazer Line

The earliest research on the Frazer line that we know of was done in the 1950’s:

This research shows Philip Frazer born 1758 with sons Philip and George. Subsequent research by Frazer descendents have moved these brothers’ birth dates up to the 1770’s. I reasoned that the James Frazer that married Violet Frazer above was actually another son of Philip above. This was based mostly on the James’ naming of his first son Philip and where these families lived in proximity to each other.

Here is my web page version:


Note that I have that the younger Philip married a Jane Johnston in 1818. However, it could be that the father Philip married this Jane as a second wife. Philip would have been about 42 in 1818.

Further, this George is of interest. My 2nd great grandfather was George Frazer born around 1836. He could have been named after the late George born say around 1800. Looking above, the George that the Richard of this Blog has could also have been named for the same George. This gives circumstantial evidence that he could also have been of this same Philip Line.

Finally, note the tithe applotment. My assumption is that George, Philip and James were three brothers. My second assumption is that they are listed in order of age. That would make George the eldest and James the youngest. I have James born around 1804 based on his age at death. That would put the two brothers as born sometimes before then – Perhaps 1800 and 1802.

More Thoughts on the Philip Frazer, Jr. Line

Here is my web page which is in need of revising:

First, I am leaning toward putting Jane Johnston with the elder Philip. Second, I now have a wife for the junior Philip from Michael’s compilation of Frazer records:

MLB                 Marriage Licence Bonds (Diocese of Elphin 1709-1845)

This information is interesting in light of Richard’s research showing that Rebecca’s parents were Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor. Richard’s Rebecca was born later than the one I have on my web page above. This could mean one of two things:

  • The first Rebecca died and the family had a later Rebecca
  • Rebecca wanted to be younger than she really was

This brings up the subject of the Maxwell Discontinuity.

The Maxwell Discontinuity.

I had told Richard that this was the Minion discontinuity, but apparently I was wrong. These are Minions:

Maxwell was the Parish Priest in Klmactranny. He was supposed to be taking down records but didn’t between sometime in 1830 and sometime before early 1842. For this reason, a lot of important records are missing. My 2nd great grandfather was born about 1836. So that could explain his missing birth record. Apparently the birth of Richard’s George James Frazer is missing due to the Maxwell discontinuity. Hmm… perhaps George James Frazer was named for the deceased George mentioned above and also for my ancestor James born about 1804. Well, James is a common name. Another issue for Richard’s George James Frazer is that his mother is listed as Mary Gray rather than Mary Taylor. There could be at least two reasons for that:

  • The wrong name could have been written down for George’s mother on his marriage record
  • George’s father could have remarried a Mary Gray. I suppose if this was the case, then DNA testing of descendants would show the difference. For example, matches between Richard and George’s descendants would be half cousins, so the DNA matches would be half as much as they would be with the full cousins.

What About Ann Frazer born 1832

If Ann Frazer was a sibling of Philip, Eliza, Rebecca and George she would have been born during the Maxwell Discontinuity. It would have been likely that she would have been baptized at the same Church as her siblings.

That sums up some of the genealogical connections between the families.

Next, on to the DNA

Richard’s Ancestry DNA Matches

Richard gave me access to his DNA results. I typed in Frazer on Richard’s match list and came up with these results:


These were just the projected 4th cousin by DNA matches. The first match was with Michael who compiled the Frazer records I mentioned above. The second match was with Gladys who I have as descending from Philip Frazer. Both of these people are the Frazer DNA project that I run. I don’t know who Debbie is.

Under more distant cousins, my sister Lori and I are listed. Then there is Moira who I don’t know. Finally there is someone who wished to remain anonymous, but is clearly related on what I have as the Philip Frazer (Sr.) Line. Once I saw the Ancestry results, I was quite sure that Richard was on the right track and was related by DNA and genealogy to the rest of the Frazers in the Frazer DNA Group.

But Wait, There’s More: Shared Matches

AncestryDNA doesn’t have a chromosome browser, but they do have a useful utility called Shared Matches. When I check the Shared Matches between myself and Richard, I come up with Gary. Here is Gary’s paternal tree from Ancestry:

Gary has his great grandfather William Acheson as being from Rockview, Lough Arrow, County Sligo. My Frazer ancestors lived on Lough Arrow and some of my relatives are still there. The ones I have been most in touch with live on the NE shore of Lough Arrow Here is a map of the Rock View Hotel, which I assume could be the same place:

Another tie-in is that Arthur, someone that helped with my genealogy years ago, was researching Achesons. Arthur was the one that coined the phrase Maxwell Discontinuity and discovered the gap of missing records.

It turns out that Gary’s father’s best man at his wedding was one of my Frazer relatives from near Lough Arrow. I had asked Gary to upload his results to Gedmatch. I didn’t see his message that he did that until I looked again at his results at AncestryDNA just recently. Right now Gary’s results don’t give me any easy answers, but there seem to be some interesting connections there – somewhere that we haven’t figured out yet. Ah, the mystery of genetic genealogy.

By the way, a Shared Match means just that. It means I match Richard by DNA. Richard matches Gary and I match both of them. It is not the same as triangulation by DNA but it could be the same. In a way it means, where there is smoke, there may be fire.

A Summary of Part One

  • Some Ontario Frazers that Richard has been researching (including his own ancestor Ann Frazer) appear to be siblings. They also all descend from Philip Frazer. This appears to be the same Philip who I have as the son of another Philip from North Roscommon, Ireland and the brother of my ancestor James Frazer. I have not proven that my ancestor James is the brother of Philip, but the research from Richard adds circumstantial evidence to the work that I have done.
  • In addition to matching by genealogy to my Frazer relatives, Richard matches me, my sister and two other Frazers in the Frazer DNA Project: Gladys and Michael. The match to Gladys can be explained if we are all descended from Philip Frazer born around 1776.
  • Richard also matches Michael at AncestryDNA. I have that Michael does not descend from Philip born around 1776, but from two of his brothers: Richard and Archibald. That means that the common ancestor between Michael, myself, Gladys and Richard could be the father of Philip or another collateral line. Actually Gladys does match Michael on another Frazer Line. Both Gladys and Michael descend from Archibald Frazer born about 1778 who is a brother of the Philip born about 1776.
  • Richard and I have another shared match Gary. The connection between this Gary, Richard and me may be even more difficult to figure out than the one between Michael, Richard and myself. This is because Gary is not aware of any Frazers in his ancestry.
  • So far, my research on the Frazer family has been a great collaboration with other Frazer researchers around the world. I am glad to have Richard contributing his research to the work that others have done.

Next Blog

In the next Blog, I’ll take a look at Richard’s results at Gedmatch. AncestryDNA gives some general matching information, but does not give specific matches. With specific matches, on specific parts of specific chromosomes, it is possible to infer or give pretty good indication of common ancestors. This DNA may give further evidence for or against having my James Frazer in the Philip Line.

Also, I know how I am related to Michael. My ancestor Violet Frazer was the daughter of Richard Frazer born about 1777. Violet was the sister of Isabella Frazer who was the ancestor of Michael. However, I am not sure how Richard matches Michael. He would have a common ancestor in the father of Philip Sr who was Archicbald Frazer born about 1743, but that is going quite a way back.






Frazer-Johnston DNA and Genealogy

I recently had some good news. John contacted me. He has Johnston and Frazer ancestry and wants to know if I could look at his DNA. I like it when I am not chasing down people and someone gets in touch with me without me first asking them. In his initial contact with me, John brought a smile to my face when he noted that I was “working the DNA hard”. This brought to my mind the comedy mocumentary “Walk Hard”.

Frazer-Johnston Genealogy

I have had an interest in the Johnstons for some time. I noticed that they were living in vicinity of Frazers  in North Roscommon and had married into the family – though not into my specific line as far as I know.

Here is the important Frazer-Stinson marriage.

This was compiled by Michael of our Frazer DNA group and researched by Ros of our group. Good team effort.

I also find this entry interesting:

My research leads me to believe that I am descended from the elder Philip [Frazer] mentioned above. That theory could be supported if I were to find a descendant from this line to test their DNA.

That brings up a point. It is an excellent genealogical method to research collateral lines when researching your own line. Johnston would be considered a collateral line for me and for those in the Frazer DNA Project. Research in these lines can shed light on your own line.

A Bloated Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line

This line is bloated but in a good way.

I added John on the left as he descends from Mary Frazer. Mary appears to be an elder daughter of the Frazer/Stinson union. By this chart, John is 4th cousin to those in his generation from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. John is 4th cousin once removed to those that one generation down from him (bottom row).

I should note that there are two types of DNA testers in the tree above. The first group from the viewpoint of the Frazers are only in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line and no other Frazer Line. The second group are in more than one Frazer Line. Those that are in more than one line are:

  • Jane
  • Michael
  • Those in the yellow group to the right

I put a red box around the lines that descend from more than one Frazer from the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Tree. This is important when trying to separate out the DNA.

Derrycastle During the Tithe Applotment (1834)

The Tithe Applotment was an assessment to support the Church of Ireland from what I understand. Here is a list of the families in Derrycastle in 1834:

Here is the original handwritten list:

My sense is that the most important person was listed first in these assessments. Now I get to quote myself as a self-appointed leading authority on Derrycastle. From my Frazer webpage:

The Tithe Applotment is considered to be a census substitute. We may tell where many of the heads of households lived at this time. There were 19 Frazers listed in this ‘census’ in Roscommon. That is more than any other Republic of Ireland County at the time. John is difficult to determine due to the number of Johns in the area. My guess is that he is the John b. c. 1805 who married Isabella. Archy may be John’s brother. William may be yet another brother. I don’t know who Ann is – perhaps his mother Ann Stinson Frazer(?) Philip and James are likely the sons of Philip. Archy of Shanvoley apparently was from or lived in Shanvoley. I don’t know if people were listed more than once in the Tithe Applotment. There is also an Archy and Alexander listed in Shanvoley in 1834. Actually they are listed as being in Bothoriagh Shanvallew Derrynamontrue. I don’t know who the widow McGrath was. Lastly John Johnston was probably Jane Frazer’s husband below.

To answer my question above, I believe that people were listed more than once in these Applotments. For example Alexander of Shanvoley lived in Shanvoley, but had some land in Derrycastle. This would be quite common as these Townlands were quite small.

Another question is: who was George Frazer? I didn’t address that above. However, Michael’s compilation of records has:

So if my theory is right, then my ancestor James Frazer was the son of Philip and the brother of George. That would explain where my 2nd great grandfather George Frazer (son of James) got his name:

My great great grandfather (seated to the right in the photo above) was born about 1838 and was apparently named after his Uncle George who died late in 1831 – probably in his memory. I was recently wondering where George got his name. This would be a good explanation. While I’m off the subject, I’ve slept in the house pictured above which I think is pretty cool. The house is still in the family. My great grandfather who was the eldest child had already left for Boston, Massachusetts by the time this photo was taken. He was seeking his fortune in the new world.

Getting back on subject, I find it interesting that Ann Stinson Frazer is probably the Ann Frazer listed in the 1834 Tithe Applotment above. Information supplied to me by the John of this Blog indicates that Ann Stinson died in 1840 – 6 years after the taking of the Tithe Applotment.

John’s Frazer DNA

I don’t know much about Johnston DNA, so I will be looking at John’s Frazer DNA. By the way, what is the question we are trying to answer with John’s DNA? One is, does the genealogy look right? Does John belong in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line? According to this table, John should have a better than even chance of matching a 4th cousin:

However, for 4th cousin, once removed, it looks like he has less than an even chance of matching by DNA.

The Archibald Line Matrix

The matrix is getting too big for the whole Frazer DNA project, so I will just show it for the Archibald Line:

I am at the top left. I don’t descend from Archy and Ann. David is someone who is unsure of his relationship to our group but does match by DNA. I suspect he descends from Richard Frazer born in the 1770’s. John is below David in the first column. Notice that John doesn’t match anyone in my family – the family that does not descend from Archy and Ann Stinson. So that would make sense. David should also be in the ‘not descending from Stinson’ category. John has nine matches with 15 Frazer/Stinson descendants. That sounds like more than half. Albeit, two of those matches are below 7 cM.

John had asked me about his lack of match with Michael at AncestryDNA. At Gedmatch, John clearly matches Michael. My guess is that Ancestry uses a method to filter out some of the matches that it thinks might not be real or accurate. It is that method that likely filtered out this match between John and Michael. Some people don’t like Ancestry’s filtering. To me, the match between John and Michael looks good.

More DNA Details and Triangulation

John had a question to me about AncestryDNA circles. I told him that they are OK, but that triangulation is much more precise. To find Triangulation Groups (TGs), I use the Multi Kit Analysis utility at Gedmatch. If three not very closely people match each other on the same segment of DNA, then that is considered a TG. It means that those three share a common ancestor. In this study, we are looking for common Frazer ancestors.

Based on the Multi Kit Analysis, John matches 7 people on the Archibald Frazer Line:

That makes sense as I mentioned that two matches were under the 7 cM threshold. Here John matches brother and sister Susan and Ken as well as their 1st cousin Patricia. That would be John’s TG. Then he matches Gladys, Michael, Doug and Vivien of the Frazer/Stinson Line.

This shows that John matches Frazer/Stinson descendants on four different lines. That is quite convincing. These international matches represent Australia, two DNA testers from England and Canadian relatives.

The triangulation is with the yellow line of Frazer descendants on the right. This is likely because they have more people tested to triangulate with. John mentioned a common area that his family lived in with the yellow line. That was Martinsburg, NY. So John should also check that there was no common ancestor from that connection. My guess is that the small DNA match they have represents Frazer as a New York connection would likely represent a larger DNA match.

Actually, my next project is to determine what parts of DNA Doreen, Ken and Susan got from their grandparents – especially their Frazer grandfather. I’ll be using a procedure called Visual Phasing. So this Chromosome 3 match they have with John would very likely be from their Frazer grandfather.

For fun, I checked to see if John matched anyone in the James Line of Frazers. He matched Charlotte from that Line, but only at 6.0 cM.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Going over John’s Frazer-Johnston background was interesting and it shed some new possibilities for my own genealogy.
  • Like Michael, John represents for now, a single line branch coming down from a child of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.
  • Unlike Michael, John only descends from one Frazer Line.
  • Although technically, the DNA could indicate that John descends only from Archibald Frazer or Ann Stinson, there is no reason to believe that John does not descend from both.
  • It can be comforting to know that your genealogical research is backed up by DNA evidence.