An Update on My Mitochondrial DNA

Previously, for my Blogs, I had no category to sort my Blogs by Mitochondrial DNA. Now I have. I have also published two of my previous Blogs on Mitochondrial DNA. Here is the link to the more recent of the two Blogs.

One interesting  comment I wrote in my first Blog on Mitochondrial DNA from 2018 was that I was getting about one zero “Genetic Distance” mitochondrial DNA match per year. This seems to still hold true:

It looks like my first ‘perfect’ match was in 2014 and I have a total of 10 matches. I had one zero genetic distance match each year from 2019 through 2022.  My 2019 match was my cousin Rusty.

The Questions I am Trying to Answer

When writing, it is a good idea to have a purpose. I have these questions:

  • How old is H5’36?
  • How old are my zero matches likely to be?
  • Where does the maternal genealogy for my matches lead me?
  • Are there new developments for H5’36?

I don’t expect that I will answer all these questions definitively, but hope to get closer to answering these questions.

How Old is H5’36?

This should be an easy question, but I have a feeling that the answer is not easy. In my previous Blog, one answer I had was that a zero match with coding region would go back about 2200 years. I also uploaded my results to YFull and get this information:

If I interpret this correctly, then H5’36 goes back to about 6,000 BC. Based on those pieces of information, here is my interpretation. First, here are my matches:

Or, perhaps these are my matches with information on where there earliest maternal ancestor is from. Perhaps I could say:

  • My genetic distance matches of three go back to 6,000 BC
  • My exact matches go back to about 200 BC
  • The other genetic distance matches would be spread out between. 8000 minus 2200 is 5800 years.  If I divide that by three I get roughly 1900 years. That means I could put the genetic distance of 1 at 2100 BC and a genetic distance of 2 at about 4,000 BC.

Having said that, here is a view of YFull’s MTree:

This indicates that H5’36 was formed 16,200 years ago and that my common ancestor 13,400 years ago. I will also hazard an explanation for this also. The way the tree shows, H5’36 is the paren Haplogroup to many, many other H5 Haplogroups. As the parent to those other groups, the age is 16,200 years old. However, where I am which is apparently under none of that branching, I am at 8,000 years old. Hey, what’s 8,000 years, give or take?

My sample is the one without the flag, so I’ll need to add England when I figure out to do that. I think that I read there is a way to do this but you have to set YFull to female. Now I’ve figured it out:

I was not seeing the tab here under My settings. I pushed the mtDNA tab and now can add my information. Hopefully I fixed that problem.

New Developments for H5’36

Seeing as I have looked at the MTree already, I’ll look at this issue next. It appears that new branching has taken place on the MTree which is maintained by YFull. YFull may be ahead of FTDNA or behing FTDNA depending on how much time FTDNA has been spending on a certain area. It appears that FTDNA has not done much with the mitochondrial DNA tree lately.

YFull’s MTree

YFull appears to be ahead of FTDNA in creating a mitochondrial DNA Tree. Here is the H5’36 Tree:

I had alluded to this earlier. Notice that my flag of England is now included. However, when I scrolled to the bottom of this tree, I see my H5’36 branches:

There is now an H5’36a, b, and c. It is difficult for me to see all this tree, so I will create a two level tree to see the structure:

This was actually quite simple. Most of the testers come in under H5. My understanding is that historically, H5’36 was discovered after H5 which is why it has a strange name.  Apparently, even though there are new branches under H5’36, I am still under the original branch.

Further, YFull’s MTree gives the mutation which identifies each of these branches:

[However, see later in the Blog for a corrected tree.]

My assumption is that I have mutation C456T and that I do not have the other four mutations. Here are my results:

Mutation C456T is in my HVR2 results. I don’t see the other mutations in my results.

SNP Tracker

SNP Tracker looks at both location and dates, so perhaps this online program will be helpful:

Based on SNP tracker, the location for H5’36 is around present day NW Germany. However, the date for this Haplogroup is very old:

However, this seems to be somewhat consistent with YFull – but YFull’s more recent date. Note that between England and Ireland, England barely edges out Ireland by 10 to 9. I am interested in the skull icon in the bottom row. So I click on that and get:

I then chose the United Kingdom sample from 3500 years ago and get this location:

This is possible a female ancestor or certainly a relative of a female ancestor. A sample of one is difficult to make assumptions from, but my feeling prior to this blog was that my mother’s maternal ancestors came from Scotland and that descendant went to both England and Ireland. This sample of one would appear to support my previous assumption.

FTDNA Haplotree

After much searching, I was able to find the FTDNA Haplotree:

Here is a slightly expanded view:

I don’t understand the difference between the light blue and the dark blue and I don’t understand the significance of the numbers. Also notice that the structure is somewhat different than YFull’s MTree. On the MTree, H36 is under H5’36-b:

This tells me that technically my depiction of the MTree is not corrrect. The MTree has a H5’36b and an H5’36-b:

Here I added H36 to reconcile YFull’s MTree with FTDNA’s Haplotree.

Where does the maternal genealogy for my matches lead me?

This is the final question and I have already touched upon it. SNP Tracker appears to take all the H5’36 results and averages out a location which is NW Germany. I believe that FTDNA is more precise in that it takes into account the Coding Region which is more specific.

Here is the Matches Map from FTDNA:

Of interest to me is that all matches are from the British Isles. The map is based on those who have reported an earliest maternal ancestor. There are 6 locations. Of these matches, the most interesting to me are the two red balloons in County Donegal. I wonder if these two are related to each other. Here are these two matches from my Match List:

Russell is my cousin Rusty. His ancestors are the same as my maternally and go back to the area North of Sheffield, York, England. Including my self, that accounts for four out of the 11 tests.

In addition, there is a tree icon in the above list. Steve, Russell, and Ann have family trees in addtion to the two perfect matches from the Matches Map.

Here is a spreadsheet that I would like to fill out:

Steve and His Maternal Genealogy

As Steve is the newest match, I would like to look at his genealogy. Here is how Steve reports his maternal ancestry at FTDNA:

Here are the details for Mary Chickey:

This would be more in general area of the British Isles that my maternal ancestry goes back to. It should be easy for me to recreate Steve’s tree:

Here is Florence in 1911:

Here is Hunslet outside of Leeds:

Florence was 2 in 1881. Her father was from Ireland, but I am tracing the mother’s side:

Florence’s mother Theresa was from Leeds. Here is where she was buried:

According to the 1861 Census, Theresa’s mother was born in Ireland:

Also of interest, Theresa’s younger sister was born in Birminham:

More on Maria

This appears to be Maria’s marriage in 1857 in Birmingham:

The transcription is Lamler, but I see the name as Lawler. Aslo this is a Church of England marriage, but I had thought that the family was Roman Catholic. Here is Maria in 1851:

This corroborates her birth in Ireland and her father as Martin as per the Marriage record above. So Steve’s maternal tree does lead to Ireland:

I would guess that the Lawler family moved from Ireland to England around 1841. In fact, here is the family in 1841 living in Leeds – though the last name is a bit mangled:

Who Was Fanny Lawler?

The hints on Ancestry lead me to believe that she was Frances Elina Green and that she was buried in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Let’s see if that seems reasonable. Here is the family in 1861:

Mary (or Maria) had left the home by now as she married in 1857. Here is the 1870 Census for Sumner, Wisconsin:

It appears that Dennis would be the son of Martin and Frances. At any rate, Dennis would have been born around 1824. The story is holding together as Dennis shows up in the 1841 as being 15. This would have him born around 1826. However ages over 15 were rounded.

The 1880 Census gives a middle name:

She is Frances Elina.

Here is a marriage record from Rathfarnham, South of Dublin, that appears to apply:

One issue with this marriage is that Frances would have been about 15 when she married if she was born in 1807. However, Frances was probably born before 1807:

One tree at Ancestry shows this:

Frances’ mother’s name is give as Mary Kenny. It would make sense for Frances’ father to be Richard as it would be traditional for Frances to name her second son after her father (and her first daughter after her mother).  Suffice it to say that Steve’s maternal line was in Ireland probably before the year 1800.

Ann and Her Maternal Genealogy

Here is my updated spreadsheet:

I have that Ann has a maternal ancestor of Helen McLaughlin, but where did she live? Ann has a three person tree at FTDNA and shows this person as her mother:

It turns out that I had already built out this tree:

I had gotten back to Ann Campbell born 1867 in County Tyrone, Ireland. A name like Campbell suggests a Scottish background. However, her mother may not have been Scottish.

At this point, at least in the early 1800’s mitochondrial matches’ DNA lead back to Ireland.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I continue to get about one zero step mitochondrial DNA match per year.
  • When I trace my closest matches, their genealogy goes back to Ireland – at least in the early 1800’s.
  • However, I trace my own maternal line to 1795 or before in Thorne, Yorkshire County, England.
  • One early archaelogical sample of H5’36 was found in Edinburgh. Perhaps descendants set out from there to Ireland and England.
  • The dating of H5’36 was confusing. It appears to go back to 6,000 BC or before, but my matches with zero genetic distance may be around 2,000 BC or sooner.
  • YFull’s MTree seems to be more precise under H5’36 compared to FTDNA’s Haplotree.


Some Nutter Genealogy

I have been in touch with Michael who has ordered a BigY test. He has Nutter genealogy, but he appears to have a male YDNA Haplogroup that only Hartleys have held so far. I am interested how closely he is related to the Hartleys.

I see that Michael has this genealogy posted. I hope he doesn’t mind me taking a look at it.

I’ll start a Nutter tree at Anestry, to see if we come to the same conclusions.

Here is Albert or James A in the 1901 Census:

He lived in Hindley but was born in Tyldesley.

James Nutter 1847

Here is a tree from Ancestry:

Here is Abram – a village in Wigan:

James had two wives and James Albert was from the second wife. Here is a young James in the 1851 Census:

John Nutter 1817

James father John was a Boat Builder in Bedford in 1851. While snooping around Ancestry, I found a better Nutter tree from Michael – the one taking the BigY 700 test:

Interestingly for me, there is a Hartley Line there from 1749.

Here is John Nutter and family in 1861:

All these places were close to each other:

This appears to be the transcription for John’s marriage:

He was a ship carpenter which fits in to the Census records. Here is Haigh to the NE of Wigan:

This appears to be John’s baptismal record:

Here is some more local geography:

Richard Nutter

Here are a few choices for Richard Nutter:

Assuming these are the two best choices, let’s see which is the best choice.

Richard number one is a husbandman from Brindle. I think a husbandman is someone who takes care of animals. I looked it up and a quick result said farmer. I’m not sure of the difference between a yeoman and a husbandman. I looked yeoman up also and got:

a man holding and cultivating a small landed estate; a freeholder.

Here is Brindle:

Richard Nutter #2

This Richard was a house carpenter. This would seem more in line with his son John’s occupation of ship carpenter – though at the time of John’s birth, Richard was apparently a weaver.

This appears to be the Parish of Burton in Kendal:

By location, it appears that Richard #1 is better. Let’s see where they married:


This is what I get for Warton (above) though Lancaster seems further north. That makes the decision more difficult. Do we go by occupation or location?

I need to find Richard in the Census if possible. My thinking is that the Richard Nutter who had John Nutter in 1816 in Chanock hung around the area. His Census should have where he was born. Unfortunately, I could not find Richard easily in this area.

Taking a Look at Michael’s Tree

I see that Michael has this information for Richard Nutter:

If this is right, then Richard and Jane should appear in the Rivington Census of 1841 and Richard should appear in the 1851 Rivington Census. I also see that Michael has this Bishop’s Transcript marriage record:

Here Richard is a Servant rather than a husbandman.

This appears to be a record for Richard’s death:

Here is the burial record for Jane:

Here are some other records from Rivington:

Assuming this is the same couple (and they appear to be), this would represent perhaps moving out of the area for a while? Here is Adlington:

Actually Adlington is near Rivington. Here is Oswaldtwistle:

So not too far away if right.

Nutter Baptisms at Rivington Church

I don’t see a corresponding birth record for Jane Nutter who died in 1826. I see one record for ‘Margrit’s’ baptism as Jennett as the mother.

When James was born, Richard was a farmer:

Here is an early baptism at Rivington Church:

Here is another Nutter Burial:

If this Coln is Colne, then here is a connection to the area where my Hartleys came from. Here is a guess for the baptism of Mary:

I couldn’t easily find a marriage record for Henry Nutter around this time.  Here are three marriages with the last being in Colne witnessed by a Hartley:

Also I see this baptismal record with a Henry and a Richard:

Here is a better connection:

Notice that even the abode of Coln is the same spelling as the abode of Coln in the burial record for Mary Nutter in Rivington, daughter of Henry Nutter. It would seem od for there to be two misspellings of Colne in twon different records relating to Nutter.

Here is one more record with that spelling:

If I put the three ‘Colns’ together, it looks like perhaps Henry and Sally Nutter had John Nutter in 1782 in Colne, Richard Nutter in 1787, then moved to Rivington at some point where they buried daughter Mary in 1802.

An Interesting Record for Richard Nutter

Here is the reference for the above document:

To me, it would be a coincidence if this is not the same Richard Nutter. Basically, Margaret Eccles had a male “bastard” child which had to be supported by the government. She calls out Richard Nutter who is required to give some support for the raising of the child.

Here is Yate and Pickup Bank:

So, I am learning a bit about local geography through this exercise.

Here is a baptism for a daughter of Peggy Eccles:

Here is another legal document concerning Richard:

Actually, I am not sure this is the same Richard as here is the location referred to in the 1830 document:

I’m spending a lot of time on Richard because he seems to be a crucial link to going further back in time in Nutter genealogy.

Richard Nutter in the Census

This appears to be the wrong Richard in 1841 Preston:

This appears to be the house carpenter who married Jane Nuttal. Here is the same family in 1851:

This Richard was born in Wennington.

I found this Jane in the 1841 Census, but I don’t know if she is the right person:

This Jane shows that she was not born in Lancashire.

Richard’s Father was Henry, John or Richard?

Ancestry suggests Richard as  the father of Henry as their ‘hint’. Michael has John Nutter as the father of Richard:

As mentioned above, I am leaning toward Henry being the father of Richard. I’ll try putting Henry in the Private Ancestry Tree that I have made.

This appears to put me in the minority. I found three trees for Richard Nutter at Ancestry and they all show Richard for the father. Here is the couple I am going with:

I am guessing that this Henry could have been born around 1760. Here are some Baptisms from around that time:

My best guess for Henry is the last one. He was born in 1754, so would have been 27 when he married. The other two Henrys are from Burnley or Barrowford. Barrowford is outside of current Colne. Here is Colne Edge:

Apparently, I am in the minority with this Henry also. I looked at three trees for Henry and they show him having a son Richard, but the son who was born in Wennington. So, I am going in circles a bit. Even though I am going against other Ancestry trees, I think my logic in my connection between Rivington and Colne is sound.

Why Not Richard as the father of Richard?

I had mentioned above that there was a Richard Nutter in the Rivington Parish who lived in Rivington. He had a daughter Mary baptized there in 1768:

Could he have been the father of the Richard who lived in the Rivington area? It would seem possible, however, under that scenario, this Richard would have had Mary in Rivington and then gone back to Colne to have Richard and then somehow Richard would have made his way back to Rivington Parish. Plus, this birth was in 1768. I believe that Michael’s ancestor Richard was born in 1787 which was 20 years later.

Here is one Richard born to a Richard, but he appears to have died soon after his birth:

Here is the best guess for the Richard son of Richard scenario:

Unfortunately, the Rivington baptismal record for Mary did not mention the name of the mother.

Here are some marriages for Richard Nutter and Mary:

The first marriage would have been too early to have Richard in 1788. The second marriage would probably be too early to have Richard in 1788. Assuming this Mary was 20 at the time of marriage, 29 years later she would be 49 having Richard. I suppose this is a possible scenario, but not likely. Finally, the last Richard Nutter would be a good candidate to have the Richard Nutter born at Lawn in 1788, but not as likely to have Mary baptized in 1768 in Rivington.

Richard Nutter Born 1719

Ancestry has three trees which all look somewhat like this one:

As there were three Richard Nutters baptized in Colne in 1719, I wonder how they knew they had the right one?

The 24 January 1719/20 from Greater Marsden above is probably the one mentioned in the Ancestry Trees – though Ancestry has the birth in Trawden.

Here are a few more Richard Nutters in Lancashire:

If I had to guess I would probably go with the one from ‘Coln’ based on the spelling mentioned earlier. However, that is a guess. The name is spelled differently, but I’m sure there were spelling variations in the early 1700’s. I was hoping that there would be fewer Richard Nutters the further back I went, but there were more. So this would seem to be a good time to end this Blog. This is my best guess based on my limited research:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I am interested in Michael’s ancestry because he has ordered a BigY Test which indentifies the male line. Michael’s past YDNA testing has put him in a branch of the male tree  of mankind that has been reserved for Hartleys up to this point. Michael’s male only line ancestry is Nutter.
  • The Nutter genealogy gets more difficult at the point of Richard Nutter. This is because it is difficult to find this Richard in the Census. According to the Quarter Sessions, this Richard appears to have fathered a boy with Margaret Eccles and was required to come up with support for the boy. There was also a Richard and Margaret Nutter mentioned in the Quarter Sessions. But I don’t know if this is Margaret Eccles above.
  • Based on connections that Henry Nutter and his wife Sally had between Colne and Rivington Parish, it seemed like Henry would be a likely candidate to be the father of Richard. I went on that assumption which lead me to another Richard as Henry’s father. However, there were too many Richard’s born in the early 1700’s to identify which Richard he was.


Tracking Down Shadlock Genealogy on My Hartley Side

I have a DNA match with a few people with some Shadlock genealogy. These matches are important because they have shared matches with people that appear to go deep into my Hartley ancestry. Here is one of the matches with my father’s cousin Joyce:

Shadlock Genealogy

This is the tree of the match on her maternal side where Lillian Jess is the match’s maternal grandmother:

I had started my own Shadlock research and would like to look further.

Elizabeth Ellen Shadlock Born 1875

Here is Elizabeth:

My possible relative. She married Manuel Jesse in New Bedford, MA in 1894. That record gave her parents names:

In 1900, Elizabeth was living on Belleville Ave in New Bedford with her family.

We see that her mother was living with them also at the time.

Alice died in 1903 in New Bedford:

Here her maiden name is given as Alice Walker and her husband as William Shadlock. This is a bit of conflict with the Mariiage record where Alice’s father is given as John Shadlock. This is further confused where her death record gives her father’s name as Shadlock:

I believe that her Father’s name would likely have been Robert Walker and her mother’s name Elizabeth Fouler (or Fowler).

[Edit: After looking at other entries of the New Bedford Death records, I see that the name in quotes is actually the maiden name and the first name is the married name. However as Elizabeth and her daughter went by Shadlock, it is possible that Elizabeth never married her daughter’s father – or if she did, she kept her maiden name for some reason.]

Here is the record showing mother and daughter traveling to Boston in 1887:

Ancestry gives this 1861 Census hint for Mary Shadlock:

If Mary was a Shadlock, that would likely mean that she was single mother. This record appears to apply to Elizabeth Ellen Shadlock:

This means that Elizabeth Ellen was born later than thought or that she was baptized at about age 4 and that her death record in New Bedford would be correct. Another possibility would be that Mary Alice was a single mother and that she later married William Walker Shadlock?

Here is the actual record showing she was born earlier:

I suppose that one interpretation would be that Mary Alice was a single mother and that William Walker was the father that she is naming in the baptismal record..

A Marriage Record for Mary Alice Shadlock?

The records for civil registrations of marriages for January through March 1875 show this entry:

Following the Robert Shadlock Line

Let’s assume that the Robert Shadlock in the 1861 Census is the same as the one mentioned in Alice’s death record. I now have this tree:

The potential parents in green do not sound familiar. That means that the Hartley connection could be with William Walker – assuming that he is really the father of Elizabeth Shadlock. Here are a few possibilities for William:

The Accrington Connection and Ashton-under-Lyne

Here is Accrington:

My Emmet ancestors were from Bacup in the SE portion of the above map. My Hartley ancestors were from Trawden in the NE portion of the above map. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong place as the later location for the Shadlocks was in Ashton-under-Lyne:

Here is William Walker in the 1871 Census:

Note that in the top right, the Parish is St. James which is where Elizabeth Ellen Shadlock was baptized. That puts this William as the best guess for Elizabeth’s father. He is a coal miner and his father (also William) works for a butcher.

Playing Out William Walker’s Genealogy

Here is the 1861 Census:

William’s mother was Jane, but I can’t make out where she was born. The transcription has it as “On the Sea of Kent”.

Here is the 1851 Census:

Again, I can’t make out where Jane was born. The second part seems to say “Irish Channel”.

Here is a possible marriage for the elder William:

Unfortunately, there were many Janes who married William Walkers in the Manchester area.

Here is my best guess for a family tree for Elizabeth:

More on Shaerd Matches

My father’s cousin has a shared match with this Shadlock descendant:

Here the connection is through Pilling only as Wilkinson was a second marriage after Hartley (my connection). That means that the Shadlock descendant genealogical match is likely going back to Pilling at some point. Mary Pilling was from Trawden Lancashire. So that likely places where the connection is.

Summary and Conclusions

Although I have not found a genealogical connection corresponding to my DNA match, I have a better understanding of why I cannot find the connection. It appears that Elizabeth’s father was William Walker. However, Elizabeth did not take the family name. Further, Walker is a farily common name, so difficult to trace. If more could be found on the birthplace of Jane Walker, that could shed some light on the genealogy. It seems that the census records are saying that she was born on board a vessel at sea.

In summary, it seems that there was no father in life of Elizabeth Shadlock and no husband around for her mother Mary Alice Shadlock. This perhaps caused economic hardships. My guess is that Mary Alice thought that she and her daughter would do better in New Bedford, so they moved there in 1887.



Some of My Bradford DNA Connections

My autosomal DNA connections to my Bradford side are intersting as they lead back to the Mayflower in Plymouth, Massachusetts. Here are my ThruLines at Ancestry going back to Harvey Bradford:

Harvey was the most recent male Bradford in my ancestry. Patricia on the left is also my 2nd cousin through the Hartleys. Here is how that tree looks on my own family tree at Ancestry:

This shows that Harvey and his wife had two children: Henry and Hannah. I descend from Hannah and my other matches above descend from Henry. That is, except for Patricia who also descends from Hannah.

Henry Clay Bradford

I’m descended from Henry’s sister Hannah. Let’s see what the Henry Line was up to. Here is Henry in 1850:

Henry was a ‘Nailor’. I believe that he made nails. One famous nail company in Wareham was Tremont Nail. I believe that there could have been others. It is possible that Harvey worked at the same location as his son Henry. Here are some possible places where Henry worked from an 1830 map:

Confusingly, a nailor could have also worked at a cotton carding works. Perhaps Henry worked at the factory on the bottom right which was near the old Horseshoe pond.  However, there are other possibilities.The family was living on High Street in Rochester which was approximately to the left of the ‘T’ in Rochester in the map above. Walter was born apparently in East Taunton, so the family was apparently there for a little while.

In 1860, Henry was living in Acushnet, MA:

It is not clear why his wife Rhoda appears to be living next door with her parents. Perhaps these were two houses side by side or one house with two units. Walter is the one shown in my ThruLines above.

In 1870, the family was also living in Acushntet, though the Post Office is Mattapoisett, so apparently close to that Town.

Here is something I did not know about:

The couple divorces in 1876. Rhoda comes back to Massachusetts and remarries. .Henry C also remarries and dies in Maine.

Here is a summary from one tree at Ancestry:

In 1910, Henry’s second wife has died and he is living with his son in Norway, Maine:

Walter B Bradford Born 1857

Walter marries Olive A Collins in Acushnet in 1882:

The family appears to be living with Olive’s brother in 1900:

In 1910, the family moved to Rochester:

Walter was a “Teamer”. He presumably drove a team of horses which carried heavy loads. Walter’s burial stone is in the Sherman Cemetery in Rochester, MA.

Flora Bradford

My ThruLines would have me evaluate Flora Bradford’s children:

I have two DNA matches from two of her children. Ancestry has this photo:

Flora married in Marion in 1920:

Olive was born the same year:

I am also related to the Hathway family. However, I assume  that the connection is not with this line of Hathaway. So Olive was the mother of one of my matches. I assume that the match knew who his mother was.

My guess is that my other match Terry knew who her father was (John below):

Olive Bradford Born 1893

Here is a photo of Olive from Ancestry:

Olive marries Charles Henry Savaria in Rochester in 1909. Here is the family in 1910 in Rochester:

Charles was listed as doing odd jobs. Henry was listed as a teamster in the 1920 Rochester Census:

My DNA match and otherwise 2nd cousin had as her father Charles H Savaria Jr. Here is the family in 1950:

They lived on Rounesville Road in Rochester where Charles was a sawmill winch operator.

Dorothy Bradford Born 1904

I have a small DNA Match to Phillip who descends from Dorothy Bradford:

Dorothy married Ernest Gosson and lived on Main Street, Acushnet, MA in 1940:

Ernest was a truck driver for an interstate commerce. Here is 155 Main Street:

So far these ThruLines seem to check out.

Looking at Joyce’s ThruLines

Joyce is my father’s first cousin, so she is a generation closer to the Bradfords. Here are her ThruLines via Henry Bradford:

Common to my ThruLines are Patricia and Terry. Then Joyce additionally matches Shane and Cynthia under Olive Bradford thorugh Olive’s daughters Ariel and Agnes.

Ariel Savaria Born 1918

In 1940, Ariel lived on New Bedford Road, Rochester, MA with her family:

George was a highway and construction surveyor. In 1950, the family was living in Little Compton, RI:

Agnes Savaria Born 1922

Agnes also married a Lawrence. The couple was living on Marion Road, Rochester in 1950:

They were the 8th house on the left proceding West. I remember a Ray Lawrence in elementary school. Perhaps he was the son of this Raymond. Apparently he was a distant Bradford relative.

My Brother Jon’s Bradford ThruLines Adds Alice Bradford Born 1891

These are all ThruLines via Harvey Bradford and his son Henry. Jon adds offspring from Alice Bradford:

Based on the ThruLines, Alice married a Morse. This tree at Ancestry fills in some more information:

I see Evelyn and Hazel on the list above. In 1940, Alice and her family lived on East Central Avenue, Wareham:

So these must be my Onset Bradford cousins.

My sister Lori has a match to another grandchild of Alice:

In 1950, Hazel lived at Brown Street, Wareham:

Hazel’s husband worked in the cranberry business.

That covers the DNA matches that Ancestry identifies as going back to Harvey Bradford through his son Henry. I have many other Bradford relatives.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Based on Ancestry ThruLines, I have many relatives around the 4th cousin level who descend from Harvey Bradford.
  • Many of these cousins seem to have stayed in the SE Massachusetts area – or at least their parents or grandparents have.
  • I have been able to fill in some of the details for some of the descendants of Henry Bradford. He was the only sibling of my ancestor Hannah Bradford.




A Nutter-Hartley Connection by YDNA

In a previous Blog, I wrote about Michael who has Nutter ancestry and tested his YDNA with a non-FTDNA company. Those results were uploaded to YFull which showed that he was A11134 on the male YDNA Tree. I also noted that so far, all the FTDNA BigY testers who are at the A11134 level have been Hartleys.

I have also noticed that there are two other people who have had 37 STRs tests taken at FTDNA. They have matches to some of the Hartleys in the Hartley project. They have that their ancestry goes back to Ireland.

Here is the list of people in the Hartley FTDNA YDNA Project that are grouped together:

The last two on the list are my brother and me.  The first person has Mawdsely ancestry and is in the slightly more distant Haplogroup of A11132. The next two who have Richard and Roger Hartley as ancestors only tested to 12 STRs, so that information is not very useful.

The estermated Yorkshire tester matches the two Nutter testers. When I use the FTDNA TiP Report, there is a 90% chance that this Hartley and the two Nutters are related within 15 generations. If I take a generation to be 30 years for a male, then that would be about 450 years ago. If we take that to be from 1950, then that would be around the year 1500.

It would be interesting if one of these Nutter testers upgraded to the BigY 700 test. Due to the way the Nutter testers match the Hartleys, it appears that they could be close relatives to each other.

Nutter Genealogy

One of the two Nutter 37 STR testers has genealogy going back to Ireland. Here is his tree:

Here I am just interested in the father to father Nutter line. I can try to build a Nutter tree myself, to see if there are other connections to England. The more recent family was from Lowell, Massachusetts, so that is easy to trace as I live in Massachusetts.

I am interested in finding out more about Robert J Nutter as he immigrated to Lowell, MA. The 1910 Census has Robert arriving around 1860:

If my caculations are right, then he would have been about 10 years old when he moved from Ireland to the US. Robert’s wedding record shows that his parents were James and Mary:

I suspect that James P could be James R. I also believe that Robert’s real first name was James:

This also gives a place of birth for James Robert in Ireland:

This place is in County Kildare:

Here is the family in 1870:

It would take a lot of research to try to get this family back to England. The next step would be to try to find a marriage record for James Nutter and Mary.

The Census records give more clues. Here the family in 1880:

The family was living on Water Street in Lowell. Youngest son was Elias. Here is the Baptismal record for Elias from St Peter Roman Catholic Church in Lowell:

This gives his mother’s name as Mary Jordan. Mary died in a railroad accident. Her parents were John and Mary. The couple appear to have married in Dublin:

Unfortunately, the marriage and death records for for James gives no parents:

That puts this line of Nutter genealogy at a dead end for now.

More Nutter YDNA STR matches to Hartleys

The person who has David Hartley as an ancestor also matches Nutters with a genealogical difference (GD) of 3.

My recollection of this David is that he was from Yorkshire. The TiP Report between the David Hartley descendant and Nutter is also 15 generations at a 90% confidence, so also probably in the early 1500’s.

Descendant of William Shephard Hartley

The descendant of William Shephard Hartley also matches the two Nutter testers but with a GD of 4. Here is the TiP Report between these two:

Interestingly, even though the GD is greater, the number of generations at the 90% confidence level is fewer at 12 generations. Assuming 30 years per generation, this comes out to 360 years. For an easy calculation, I’ll subtract that from 1960 to get around the year 1600.

Comparing STR Matches in a Spreadsheet

Here is what I have so far:

Here is an interesting thing in that the GD of 3 results in a predicted 15 generation commona ancestor. That is compared to a GD of 2 and 4 with 12 generations to a common ancestor. That is no doubt due to the variance in the mutability of the different STRs. Some STRs change very slowly while others change relatively more quickly.

Here is the finished table:

The first tester is a Mawdsley and an earlier Haplogroup than the other Hartleys, so probably the connection to him goes back before the time that surnames were used. #2 and #3 on the list only tested for 12 STRs, so I wouldn’t include them either right now. Out of the other 11 testers, 7 had a GD of 4 or less to the two Nutter testers.

Based just on the 37 STR test (which is difficult to interpret and a low level of STR testing), I would say that there is a connection between Nutter and Hartley. The three possibilities being:

  • There is an early Nutter line that descended from a Hartley line and branched out
  • There is a Nutter line separate from the Hartley line and the connection between Hartley and Nutter is before the time of surnames
  • Our branch of Hartleys descended from an earlier branch of Nutters. Based on the number of Hartleys compared to Nutters, I would find this to be the least likely scenario.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Michael who has Nutter ancestry has recently sent out for a BigY700 test
  • He has an existing Haplogroup from previous testing of A11134. Previously, only Hartleys have tested positive for A11134.
  • There are two Nutters who have taken the 37 STR YDNA test at FTDNA. They appear to be closely related.
  • I have looked at the genealoyg of of one of the 37 STR Nutter testers. I got stuck in Dublin, Ireland for the earliest known ancestor. However, the YDNA strongly suggests ancestry in the Lancashire/Yorkshire area of England.
  • 7 of 11 Hartleys in my group of Hartleys at the FTDNA Hartley YDNA Project match these two Nutter STR testers
  • It would be helpful if one of the Nutter 37 STR testers were to take the BigY700 test to compare with Michael’s upcomng results.




Another McMaster Connection at Ancestry

Morgan is a DNA match to me at Ancestry. We match at 20 cM. Here is what Morgan has for a tree at Ancestry:

The connection to my tree is likely through Francis McMaster. Here is the tree that I have for Francis (or Frances):

Frances descends from at least 5 McMaster lines. Plus, the hint for Mary Johnston has as her mother Esther McMaster. This is truly a complicated genealogy. However, the closest place that Morgan and I connect are through James McMaster and Fanny McMaster.

A Partial DNA/Genealogy McMaster Tree

Here is part of one of the trees that I have of McMasters that match by DNA:

Note that I have a space for Jane who Married Archie McMaster. I believe that Morgan would fill in under this line:

This shows that Morgan is my 4th cousin. However, I suspect that we are related as 5th cousins also or more distantly on other McMaster lines.

My Shared DNA Matches with Morgan

Matthew is a DNA match that Morgan and I share:

I did not put Matthew on my McMaster tree to keep it simpler. Matthew must be on my Frazer DNA/genealogy tree.

Trudy with Johnston/McMaster Ancestry

Trudy is also a share match with Morgan and me. Here is the maternal side of Trudy’s tree:

This must be the Esther McMaster that I mentioned above as a hint in my tree. I’ll assume that the hint is correct, and add it in to my tree as an ancestor to Frances McMaster:

I think that Esther may be a daughter of Abraham McMaster.

Tammy – Another Shared Match

Tammy matches Morgan and me. She also has a Johnston in her ancestry which suggests a connection on the McMaster side. Here is Tammy’s tree on her paternal side:

Someone else’s tree at Ancestry has this person for John Johnston’s father:

This suggests that Thomas could be a son of Robert Johnston and Esther McMaster.

Summary and Conclusions:

  • The McMaster tree is often complicated with McMasters marrying into other McMaster lines.
  • My Match with Morgan is defined at the 4th cousin level, but there are other McMaster connections at a more distant level
  • Shared DNA matches help confirm that the genealogy is on the right track.
  • Two shared DNA matches between Morgan and me seem to confirm a  connection with Eshter McMaster born in or around 1793


A New A11134 Tester

I recently realized that there was a new A11134 tester. I had been in touch with a person named Michael who had tested. He had tested at Nebula Genomics. I am not familiar with that company as I have had tested with FTDNA. Michael uploaded his results to YFull where he is on the YFull Tree as A11132.

A11132 at YFull

Here is how Michael matches me at YFull:

YFull has Michael and me as A11132, but FTDNA has me as A11134 which is one level below A11132. Why is that?

Here is a what my Block Tree looked like in March 2021:

My brother and I are on the left. Then there were two other Hartley testers. So, at that time all Hartley testers were under A11132. In January 2022, there were two new BigY Testers. One was a Hartley and one was a Mawdsley. Mawdsley tested positive for A11132 as well as the other SNPs under the current A11132, but did not test positive for  A11134 and A11135. That resulted in the breaking up of othe old A11132 block into A11132 and A11134. This resulted in the way the tree is today:

Michael is planning on doing the BigY test at FTDNA. That means that he will be A11134 when he takes that test. Mawdsley did not post at YFull, so their tree structure is more like FTNDA’s tree prior to 2022.

Michael on FTDNA’s Time Tree

FTDNA has a new Time Tree. I was glad that I realized that Michael was actually under A11134:

That makes a difference, because as shown, A11132 would probably before the time when surnames were in general use and A11134 would be more in the time frame when surnames were coming into general use. In fact up until the time of Michael’s testing, all A11134 testers were Hartleys.

Checking Private Variants

The first place to check for possible new branches is with private variants. Michael sent me this information:

The Y designation is for YFull where Michael posted his results.

Here is a comparison I had been working on for Hartley Private Variants:

I hadn’t added John R and John N previously, so I did so now. I don’t have the full list for ‘Nutter’ above. That means that Michael cannot currently access the full list of all the SNPs that he tested for. I was surprised that none of the Hartleys that I looked at had tested for Michael’s Private Variants. That means that there may be a connection between the Hartley lines, but that connection is not known if the same locations are not sampled.

The fact that Michael’s Private Variants are likely newly discovered is shown by the date on the right. According to YBrowse, these are newly found variations as of 2022. I did not check with the Quaker Hartleys as these left Lancashire, England around the year 1700.

When I checked John N’s Private Variants, I found that Jim, Joel and Steve were not tested at those locations. That could mean that John N could have a closer connection to Jim, Joel and/or Steve. It’s a little frustrating to not know the results, because a position was not tested. One exception was with location 20674535. My brother Jim and I were not tested at this location but Steve was and tested negative.

A Different Way of Showing Results at FTDNA

I used to be able to download a ‘csv’ file from FTDNA with all the results. Those Those results have now been split up to these files:

I will cover those changes in an upcoming Blog. Here is the summary of Hartley (and Nutter) Private Variants:

John R’s results are in the new format, so I didn’t check his results agaings the other tests. Also, John R is in the Quaker Hartley group. I don’t think that there is overlap with the other groups, but it is possible. In the above chart, I took out my former Private Variants which are now named under FT225247.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was pleased to find out by checking YFull, that a non-FTDNA tester with Nutter genealogy tested positive for A11134
  • Previously, all A11134 BigY testers have had Hartley genealogy. That means that this test is a departure or that the tester could have Hartley ancestry at some point.
  • I checked Michael’s test against some of the other Hartleys BigY tests and saw that there was no overlap between his results and Hartley results. In other words, Michael’s Private Variants were not tested in other Hartleys as far as I looked.
  • Hopefully, more will be learned as Michael has agreed to take the BigY test.
  • FTDNA now reports its results in its csv file as four csv files. This is likely because the files were so large. I will look at that in an upcoming Blog.




A New Hartley BigY Test

A New Hartley BigY test results are in:

John R is the 7th BigY Hartley tester in the group of Hartleys that I am related to. There are other Hartley branches in the world, but they are not at all closely related by YDNA. I did an initial analysis of John Roberts STR results last week  here.

The A16717 Branch of Hartleys

So far all the Hartleys that are related to me by YDNA are under the branch A11134. John R is further under the A16717 branch. This is an important branch of Hartleys as the genealogy is well known:

Ross has not taken the BigY test, but John R, Lawrence and Michael have. Michael has taken the older BigY 500 test. Before Lawrence tested for BigY, Michael was designated as A11134. Lawrence further designated the branch as A16717. John Robert and Lawrence could potentially form a new branch separate from Michael.

Comparing BigY Matches

I have compared John R, Lawrence and Michael to my results:

Here are the first two on my list of Non-Matching Variants. This list can be confusing because it could be a non-match because I have the variant and John R does not, for example. Or, it could be that John R has the Variant and I do not. I put those variants that do not match my results into a table:

Here I have color coded the non-matching variants.

The Yellow Variants

These are the variants that are in my brother’s and my Branch (FT225247) . These are the SNPs in my Branch:

There are 7 SNPs in this group. The yellow SNPs above account for 6 of the 7 SNPs. But where is FT135932? When I check John R’s results I see that he is not positive for this SNP:

I’m guessing that my brother had this SNP and I didn’t or didn’t have really good results for this tested SNP. Here is my brother Jim’s comparison with John Robert:


This implies that my brother James tested positive for FT135932.

Blue and Orange Variants

We know about the blue variants. This is the SNP label used to define the Quaker Hartley Line. The orange SNP is BY26739. This SNP is more difficult to explain. For one reason, a comparison between my brother and me show that is also a non-matching Variant.


If I have BY26739 and Jim and John R do not, that would explain things. Here are my results for that SNP:

It looks like the reads were not great, but the  best reads they did have showed that I was positive for BY26739 two out of three times. I see from a previous blog that this was Jim’s results:

This was considered to be not derived, probably because there were 6 good reads which were all negative for this SNP. Here are John R’s results:

These results are even worse than my brother Jim’s. I see that the 4 best reads show no mutation at that location for John R.

The Green Non-Matching Variants

These are SNPs that my brother and/or I have. Here is an expanded view:

I don’t have a good explanation why these SNPs are not in my Block tree. One guess is that they may be from regions which are considered unreliable.

Private Variants

The Private Variants for the Quaker Hartleys should be the numbered variants shown in the chart above. These variants formed in the Thomas Line in the generations following Thomas Hartley born 1700. John R has three, Lawrence has 6 and Michael has two. That should mean an average of about 4 under the Quaker Hartley group of A16717. I’m not sure why the current Block Tree shows an average of three Private Variants. I notice that the old Block Tree before John R tested had an average of two Private Variants:

If these private variants matched between John R and Lawrence, then there would be a new Quaker Hartley Branch of SNPs. However, for that to have happened, Thomas Hartley born 1700 would have had to have had a new mutation that his brother Roger did not have:

Summary and Conclusions

  • The recent BigY testing for John Robert put him solidly in the Hartley Quaker Line and confirms common ancestry as shown in the chart above.
  • Differentiation between the two lines: Thomas Hartley and Roger Hartley were difficult as Thomas would have had to have had a SNP mutation to show up between John Robert and Lawerence.
  • Differentiation was made in my previous Blog based on STRs which was useful.
  • The BigY may undergo a manual review, but I don’t see any obvious changes that would be made.
  • The Quaker Hartleys now have the largest group of BigY tested Hartleys in the A11134 Hartley group.


New 111 STR Hartley YDNA Test Results and the SAPP Tree

New results are in for a Hartley YDNA 111 STR test. These STR tests were in included in a BigY test. The BigY test results are not in yet. There are different Hartley YDNA lines, but this is the line that my Hartleys are on (and several other Hartleys). Here are the new results:

This image is from the Hartley YDNA Project page at FTDNA. The new tester is the one at the top. The tester has ancestry in common with Roger Hartley born 1628 and died 1714. This is an important line as it represents the oldest verifiable Hartley line in this group of Hartleys. This group of Hartleys were originally Quakers. They were persecuted, so they left Lancashire County England for Pennsylvania where Quakers were welcome. That doesn’t mean that the other lines descended from this line, but that this line is closer to a Hartley common ancestor. The two tests on the bottom are for myself and my brother, so R-FT225247 represents a newer YDNA Branch.

Some Hartley Genealogy

Here is a tree I worked out for the Quaker Branch of the Hartley family:

John Robert is the new tester. Assuming I have the tree right, he shows as 6th cousin to Lawrence and Ross and 7th cousin to Michael. At the 111 STR level, John’s two closest matches are with Lawrence and Ross. John shows as a three step difference to these two. Michael does not show up. He took the older BigY 500 test which did not include the 111 STR test at the time. Lawrence took the newer BigY 700 test. Ross took the 111 STR test without the BigY test. The above tree shows Lawrence and Ross to be third cousins to each other.

John’s YDNA STR Matches at the 111 Level

Here are John’s matches of those Hartleys who have tested to the 111 STR Level:

Lawrence and Ross are at the top of the list. Interstingly, I am on the list but my brother Jimmy is not. He must have one more difference which put him over the top of what is reported. All the above have the Hartley surname except for Wolka. This likely means that this Wolka line was at one time a Hartley line.

A 111 STR Tree for Hartleys

Again, these are for the Hartleys in my group. These are the 9 people that are in the Hartley YDNA Project at FTDNA. Ross and Wolka are not in that project, so they are not represented below. When I look at the STRs that have changed within the Hartley group, they are these:

When creating a tree, the easiest way is to assume that the mode is the oldest value of the STR. When I color the outliers, they look like this:

This chart represents 8 Hartleys and one Mawdsley. The bottom two lines are myself and my brother. I moved John Robert next to Lawrence. These two are above my brother and me. They descend from the older Quaker Hartley Line.

Looking at just the Quaker Line of Hartleys, I see this:

These are the three differences between John and Lawrence in that line. John has a DYS390 value of 24 and a DYS549 value of 12. Lawrence has a DYS641 value of 11. As these are unique to the Quaker Line, they are most likely mutations within that line:

This image is meant to show that somewhere along the Anthony Hartley line, these two STRs appeared which are unique to that line. Likewise, sometime along the Joseph Hartley line a unique value for one STR occurred which describes that line. Unfortunately, I don’t have Ross’ results as he is not in the Hartey FTDNA YDNA Project.

STR Structure within SNP Structure

There are two aspects to YDNA testing. One is STRs and the other is SNP testing. The SNP testing is less subject to interpretation. This is because STR values can go up and/or down whereas a SNP mutation is a single mutation. As such, the SNP is more useful for creating trees.

Here is the reliable SNP tree from my perspective:

John Robert’s BigY results have not yet completed, but his results should be within R-A16717 based on genealogy. So far all Hartleys in this Line are under A11134. The connection for Mawdsley goes further back in time – probably before the time when surnames were finalized.

Two Models for Hartley STRs

In a Blog I wrote earlier this year, I considered two different models to explain the STRs:


In these depictions, I didn’t mean to show that Steve and John have a more recent common ancestor. They should have their own separate lines from the early Hartley ancestor. The boxes were added place them on an equal footing with the other Hartleys. Here is a better representation:

It also appears that what I had as DYS572 should actually be DYS534:

It is easy to get confused with 111 STRs. Here is a corrected version of the first tree:

FTDNA’s New Time Tree

FTDNA has a new representation for those who have taken the BigY test:

The person at the top right is a Smith. The common ancestor between Smith and our Hartleys was around the year 500. This was certainly before the time of surnames in England. The next person going down the column is Mawdsley. The common ancestor between Mawdsely and the Hartleys was some time around the year 1100, though the dashed line gives a larger range. Assuming the year of 1100 is correct, I would say that common ancestor lived before the age of surnames also.

The next 6 are Hartleys who have taken the BigY test. From the Time Tree above, we see that all Hartleys are R-A11134. These Hartleys had a common ancestor who lived probably in the 1400’s. Actually, it looks like these had a common ancestor, but they really had a common SNP. This SNP could have occurred within, say three generations on average. However, there was a Hartley who originally developed this particular mutation which was carried down all other Hartleys.

The two that are still R-A11134 are John and Steve. They have not had other matches yet which further define their lines. Chronologically, the next group is R-A16717. These are the Quaker Hartleys shown in my genealogical chart above. R-A16717 dates from the Time Tree from around 1550. By genealogy, the common ancestor from the group was born in 1666. That means that either the Time Tree is a bit early, or an ancestor of Edward Hartley born 1666 first had the mutation of R-A16717 (or a combination of both). Finally, I tested my brother and myself, so R-FT225247 represents my father who born in 1918.

Using SAPP to Generate a Hartley Tree

David Vance developed a software to analyze STRs. I’ll use this for the Hartleys in my group who are also in the Hartley YDNA Project at FTDNA:

This is the first time that I have used this tool. It uses STR testing of any length which is interesting. Also I did not put in information about SNPs. That would have been helpful to refine the tool. Here is the top box of the chart:

This is in line with the start of the Hartley surname. Here the year 1350 is given. The Time Tree based on SNPs gave a date about 75 years later. This method is a lot easier than trying to create a tree by hand. Next, I’ll look at my section:

I am on the right side of the tree. My brother and I are in the last two boxes on the bottom of the tree. Our common ancestor (our father) has a date of 1900 which is close to his birth year of 1918. The next one up on our branch is John Nicholas. He took the BigY test. I had thought that he would have formed a new Hartley SNP branch, but that did not happen.

The two other boxes are for Tim and Steve. Steve has also taken the BigY test. My guess is that Tim is Steve’s brother as the common ancestor date given is around 1950.

A Second Run of SAPP

My first run showed that I had 112 STRs for some testers, so I ran the program again using the Notepad software for the results as suggested in the instructional video. This time I came out with 111 STRs:

Above, the number of STRs are shown in bold blue on the diagonal.

Here is the corrected SAPP Tree:

This tree now shows five brances from the top instead of four and now the STR names are correct:

This now shows that the difference between my brother and me is STR 534. The program interprets that it was I that had the mutation to 16 from the ancestral value of 15. This new tree also has my brother and I having a common ancestor with John Nicholas in the year 1700.

The Quaker Hartley STR Testers and One Other Hartley Tester

These four are on the left side of the newer tree:


Here the bottom middle person is John Robert. That means that this is the Quaker Line of Hartleys. An older date of 1450 AD is given for the common ancestor. Michael, John Robert and Lawrence are in the bottom row. Because Michael has so many mutations, I believe that they set the common ancestor date back to 1450.

Confusingly, the person in the top left is another John Robert (not the subject of this Blog). He only tested for 37 STRs and is shown in a branch by himself.


I cut the first number off of Mawdsley’s ID by mistake. He was grouped with Gary. This probably should not be so as I presume that Gary is A11134 and Mawdsley is A11132

A Hartley SAPP Tree with SNPs Added

Before I go too far with the current SAPP tree, I would like to add some SNP information to the current tree, to see if that refines the tree at all. I added these SNPs:

473291 A11132*
372104 A11134*
293533 A11134*
117349 A16717*
617805 A16717*
757486 FT225247*
275990 FT225247*

The astierix indicates that the named SNP is the current terminal SNP for the tester.

Here is how SAPP interpreted my input:

This looks correct to me. Here is the new SAPP Tree:

Here we are back to four branches. However, the second branch is quite large and includes all those known to be in A11134. The first branch is the John Robert who is not in the Quaker Line. The box at the top represents A11132 which includes Mawdsley. This tree assumes that for the non-BigY tested Hartleys, we don’t know whether or not they are A11134.

The Quaker Line

I like the branching better with the new configuration:

This puts John Robert and Lawrence in one branch and Michael in another which parallels what we have for the genealogy:

This puts Thomas Hartley born 1700 at Node #19 and Edward Hartley born 1666 at Node #20.

My Hartley Group

This SAPP Tree puts me in a new group:

Again, my closest match by the SAPP Tree is with John Nicholas. Based on the Tree, we have a common ancestor born around 1700. If that is correct, then there is a chance we could find a common ancestor using genealogical research. Also on this branch are Steve and Tim. According to this tree, our common ancestor would be further back (around the year 1600). I tend to think that a common ancestor with John Nicholas and myself in 1700 is unlikely.

This is because my SNP which is FT225247 includes a total of 7 SNPs and the beginning of that SNP group should start about the same time as A16717. The SAPP Tree has A16717 starting around the year 1550.

An Unlikely Node #23

Here Node #23 is dated at 1950. However, there are 6 STR changes beneath it for Mervin. Normally one person would only have one STR change. Beneath Node #15 are Joseph and Robert. These two appear to be brothers, but they have only tested to 12 STRs. That means that they could actually be dsitantly related.

The Mawdsley Group

As before, Mawdsley and Gary are grouped together for some reason.

One More SAPP Tree without Mawdsley

I’ll take out Mawdsley as he is from a SNP group which is further back in time:

This gives a slightly different variation.

Comparisons with a 2021 Analysis

At the end of last year, Robert Casey did an analysis of Z16343. This is the parent SNP group of the Hartleys:

I added arrows to where the Hartleys are. Here is a closeup:

Casey uses a designation of A11132>. I assume that means he believes that all Hartleys should be A11132 at the top of their tree. He also has a designation of <FT225247. This is my terminal Haplogroup. I assume that designiation means that these should be upstream of FT225247. Finally, my brother and I are at FT225247 which I assume means our terminal Haplogroup. Note that this analysis was done before the Haplogroup of A16717 came out for the Quaker Hartleys of Lancashire and Pennsylvania.

Michael is in the branch at the top left. That is now A16717. Several Hartleys are missing from the analysis. Under Node #91 is John Nicholas. Under Node #85 are Gary and Lawrence. That is probably not right as I have that Gary is not part of the Quaker Hartley group. Steve is under Node #94. Then my brother Jim and I are bottom right.

Summary and  Conclusions

  • While waiting for the BigY results of John Robert of the Hartley Quaker Line, I looked at his 111 STR results
  • Ross from the Quaker Line and a Wolka are not in the Hartley FTDNA YDNA project, so I didn’t include them in the anlysis
  • On the Quaker Line, it is farily easy to see which STR mutations go with which branch of that Line
  • I looked at the SAPP Program which analyzes STRs
  • When I added SNP information, the program gave a more accurate rendering of the Hartley Quaker Line for some reason
  • There were some parts of the program which didn’t make sense, so even though the SAPP Program is very easy to use, there is still a need for manual construction of STR Trees
  • SNPs are much more accurate than STRs. However, not all Hartleys have taken the BigY test
  • Further BigY testing of Mervyn, Gary, John Robert and Wolka would be helpful in understanding the history of this branch of the Hartley family



Another Frazer Descendant and DNA Match: Christine

One of the good thing of having a network of Frazer relatives who have had their DNA tested is that I get notified when there is a new match. That happened when Jane told me about a new match she had. Here is what Jane sent me:

Jane has a match to Christine as a 3rd cousin once removed. I have access to Jane’s matches and see that Christine matches Jane at 127 cM. That is actually quite a large match for a third cousin once removed:

Ancestry gives that relationship a 2% chance.

Christine and Me

I match Christine at 18 cM:

Ancestry has Christine and me as half 6th cousins. Actually, I think we must be full cousins. I see that from a previous Blog I wrote, I had identified this line:

This line is from Australia.

My ThruLines at Ancestry

My ThruLines show Christine:

This image also has Jane and Suzanne who I don’t have on my chart. I don’t have Alan on my ThruLines, but he is probably there due to a match to someone else on the Chart.

Christine’s Genealogy

I don’t have any reason to doubt Christine’s genealogy, but I will take a look at it. All the Ancestry trees have Beatrice Frazer as Christine’s grandmother:

I have not done thorough research on this line, but Beatrice’s middle name Honora could come from her grandmother Honora White. Here is a gravestone inscription:

This inscription is from Boroondara, near Melbourne:

Here is Christine added to my Chart:

I have four of my siblings tested at Ancestry. Only one of the four matches Christine. This makes sense as a 6th cousin is quite a distant relationship.

My Match with Suzzanne

It turns out I already wrote a Blog on Suzzanne about a year and a half ago.  The reason I didn’t see her is that I had placed Suzzanne here – on the Richard Frazer Line:

This diagram is meant to indicate that Suzzanne and I have a common ancestor in Rebecca above. This shows that Suzzanne and I are actually 5th cousins – not 6th cousins. I am on the Richard Line because of Violet Frazer. I have that she married her first cousin James Frazer. James Frazer is on the ThruLines but that puts us out another generation. I suppose that I am related to Suzzanne as both 5th and 6th cousin – due to my 1st cousin ancestors: James and Violet Frazer.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Christine is my 6th cousin, so a DNA match at level is somewhat rare. According to FTDNA, I should have a less than 2% chance of matching Christine by DNA.
  • Some of our ancestors married each other’s families which may account for the match.
  • As this is such a distant match, it would be interesting to see on which chromosome Christine and I (and other Frazers) match.
  • I didn’t do a full genealogical analysis of Christine’s tree, but it seems clear that due to a large DNA match with cousin Jane (127 cM), that the genealogy is correct.