Lee’s Lancashire DNA and Genealogy

I have mentioned Lee a few times in my Blogs about my 2nd cousin Mike and my father’s 1st cousin Joyce. Lee is important, because he matches me and some of my Hartley relatives by DNA. He is also important because he has at least one Hartley anfcestor in the area where my Hartley ancestors lived.

Lee’s Lancashire Genealogy

I am more interested in Lee’s bottom six great grandparents. Then of Lee’s 12 2nd great grandparents, I am more interested in the ones that were from Colne.

The ones boxed in yellow were from Colne. Actually Margaret Simpson was from Nelson but her parents were from Great and Little Marsden which is right next to Colne. In fact, one of the other people I am following, Cai, had Hartley ancestors from Great and Little Marsden. More about that later.

So although Margaret Hartley seems to be the obvious choice to follow, it may be better not to rule out others from the area where my Hartley ancestors came from. AncestryDNA thinks that Lee and I may be 4th cousins based on the DNA. If that is right, then our common ancestor could be at the level of Lee’s 3rd great grandparents. That is one level to the right of the above chart. 

Speaking of not ruling out, here are the birth places Lee has for his 16 2nd great grandparents:

  1. Campsea Ash, Suffolk
  2. Stourbridge, Worcestershire
  3. Brounton, Devon
  4. Old Swinford, Worcestershire
  5. Worsthorne, Lancashire
  6. Colne
  7. Colne
  8. Jersey Channel Islands
  9. Colne
  10. Colne
  11. Colne
  12. Morecambe, Lancashire
  13. Colne
  14. Nelson
  15. Bedfordshire
  16. Surrey

I will look at Lee’s 2nd great grandparents 5-7 and 9-14.

Here is a map of the area around Colne:

Great and Little Marsden is the area between Trawden and Nelson. #5 William Taylor of Worsthorne was not that far away. Here is a tree for Lee where I think my Hartley’s should match:

This goes to the 3rd great grandparent level for Lee. Lee has 32 3rd great grandparents, but I narrowed that down to 18. These 18 are based on their birth being in or around Colne, Lancashire. The top line of Lee’s ancestry is difficult to see but the births range from between 1811 on the left to 1837 on the right. That is about a generation of difference from left to right.

A few other observations:

  • Margaret Hartley would be a top choice to look into. However, her parents are not known right now. However, she is not the only candidate to consider.
  • The Hartleys have Howorth ancestors in Bacup. Could there be a link to Lee’s Haworth ancestors in Colne? Not likely, but possible.
  • Lee has a Baldwin ancestor born 1836. The top candidate for the mother of my Robert Hartley ancestor is Betty Baldwin born 1780 However, if the match is on that line, it would have to go back to Betty’s father who would have been born in the mid 1700’s. That would mean going back two or more likely three more generations in Lee’s family tree.
  • At the level of Lee’s 3rd great grandparents where we may match up, Lee is missing 6 out of 18 ancestors or 1/3 of his ancestors. In addition, the Taylor wife is missing a surname.

My Trawden Genealogy

My Lancashire genealogy geographically narrows down a bit more than Lee’s:

My ancestor that was born in Trawden was Greenwood Hartley. After that, the family moved to Bacup. I don’t believe that Lee has ancestors from the Bacup area. That means that we could start with Greenwood and go back.

Greenwood is my 2nd great grandfather. The level of 4th cousin would be out one more generation to Robert and Mary Pilling. Lee is younger than me, so he may have to go back another generation to his 4th great grandfather depending on the line. For example, Robert Horsfield in Lee’s tree was born in 1833, but Margaret Simpson who is the same generation from Lee was born in 1865.

Lee’s Lancashire DNA

Here is how Lee matches me and some of my closer Hartley relatives:

  1. Sharon – my sister
  2. Lori – my sister
  3. Joel – me
  4. Heidi – my sister
  5. Jon – my brother
  6. Joyce – my father’s first cousin
  7. Jim – Joyce’s brother
  8. Mike – my second cousin
  9. Holly – Mikes sister

My Chromosome 13 Mapped

Here blue is the Hartley grandfather’s DNA that my siblings I and each received. My siblings and I match Lee from 87-109M. Lori’s Hartley segment starts around 85M. It is rare that all 5 siblings would have DNA from the same grandparent on the same segment. That means that after aboiut 85M we got no DNA from our paternal grandmother (Frazer).

My Hartley Triangulation Group (TG)

For Mike, Holly, my family, Joyce and Jim, there is a Triangulation Group (TG). A Triangulation Group means that the people in the TG share the DNA from a common ancestor.

Normally if these people were in a TG, we wouldn’t know if the ancestor represented was James Hartley b. 1862 or his wife Annie Snell. However, Annie Snell was from Massachusetts and her ancestors went back to Colonial times. This TG also includes Lee, so the match must go back from James Hartley and back to his father who was born in Trawden which was part of the Parish of Colne where Lee had ancestors. Before Greenwood are other ancestors where Lee and the rest of my family may match.

The Hartley Triangulation Group with Lee

Schematically, the TG between Lee and the Hartley’s looks like this:

However, the scenario below is more likely, especially if the connection is on Lee’s maternal side. This shows the Hartley side up a generation as compared to Lee.

At this level of connection, I would be a 5th cousin once removed to Lee. Jim and Joyce would be 4th cousins twice removed. There is even a third possibility. Under the third scenario, Mary Pilling would be the mother of one of Lee’s descendants. This is theoretically possible, but I don’t see this as likely as I believe I have accounted for all her children. She had a child before marrying Robert Hartley. He moved to the US and married. He had another daughter by Robert. This was Ann Hartley. She married a Cockrill. Mary remarried a Wilkinson, but I think I have accounted for all of those children also.

One aspect of the last likely scenario image above is that the common ancestor could be the grandparent of many that are listed as a question mark. That means that there would be a lot of genealogy to be done to make the connection between Lee’s family and my family.

The Common Matches of Joyce and Lee

When I run the utility at Gedmatch to find common matches of Joyce and Lee, I get this on Chromosome 13:

These are Joyces’ matches. #8 is how Lee matches Joyce by DNA. Numbers 1-7 are my closer Hartley family and relatives. Numbers 9-48 are people that I do not know. Perhaps one or more of these people have genealogies that would help narrow down the search for the Hartley/Lee common ancestor.

I did notice one person on the list – Cathye. I had written to her in 2016 and she just got back to me this week. I think there was some mix-up as she gave me some information on her husband’s genealogy. This may be due to the fact that she is listed at Gedmatch under her married name.

A Varley Connection

The matches in the previous chromosme browser are worthy of further research. Most of the matches there are difficult to find at Ancestry – if they tested there or do not seem to have a family tree listed. The last match has the surname of Varley and appears to be from England. This is interesting as the Census shows a Varley from Colne living with in the houselhold of my ancestor Greenwood Hartley family in Bacup in 1861. The Varley DNA match above (#48) has a very good tree. Some ancestors are from Halifax. Getting back to Lee, his ancestor William Taylor had a mother named Elizabeth born in 1816 in Halifax. So many clues, so few answers!

Summary and Conclusions

  • Lee’s DNA match to me and many closer Hartley relatives appears to indicate a Lancashire (or nearby Yorkshire) ancestral connection.
  • Mapping out the trees is helpful in trying to see where the connection may be.
  • I found many common DNA matches, but not many with good family trees. Further research may reveal more.
  • One Varley DNA match had a tree that was very compete and had many ancestors in West Yorkshire.
  • There was already a Varley connection to the Hartleys in 1861. It is not clear whether that connection was coincidental or a relative.
  • Connecting families by common locations where relatives lived can narrow down some of the daunting genealogical work needed to connect the DNA to the family history.

An Update on Skot’s Colonial DNA

Last year I wrote a Blog about Skot and a small match we had of DNA. We showed up as a Shared Ancestor Hint at AncestryDNA. I had known Skot in high school and remember him playing drums in the band and going to some get-togethers that I was at with mutual friends. So we were both surprised that we were distantly related.

Skot in Review

I have 49 Shared Ancestor Hints (SAHs). Ancestry has a computer program that compares your ancestral trees. If you have a shared ancestor within a certain range and a DNA match, then you get an SAH. Here is my match with Skot at AncestryDNA:

Here we show as 7th cousins. Ancestry goes as far back as 10 generations for these SAHs.

Skot also matches my father’s first cousin Joyce that I had tested since I wrote the last Blog. Here Joyce is a 6th cousin once removed to Skot which makes sense as she is one generation to the common ancestors:

However, note that Joyce has a second Hint:

Joyce is also 8th cousin to Skot. Perhaps that is where Ancestry’s 10 generations come in if you count yourself as the first generation.  This match would go back to the 1650’s. We are talking old. However, it isn’t quite that old. Note that Joyce and Skot both share a common ancestor of Arthur Hathaway, so they should be 7th cousins. Actually, Simon and Thomas Hathaway had different mothers, so that means that Joyce and Skot are half 7th cousins on this line.

Joyce and Skot at Gedmatch – Chromosome 10

Here is how Joyce and Skot match at Gedmatch on Chromosome 10:

Here is how Skot matches my brother and me and Joyce on Chromosome 10:

More Matches on Chromosome 15

It is not advised to go below 7 cM with matches, but I made an exception in this case:

Below 7 cM, there is a large likelihood that a match could be false. My reasoning here is how could all these matches be false? These are from three different families. Jim is Joyce’s brother, Heidi is my sister. Pat is a second cousin. Then there is me. Next I’ll do something tricky. Thanks to Martin MacNeill, I have a synthetic file of my grandfather’s reconstructed DNA. I will run this against Skot and other relatives:

This is how my grandfather matches:

  1. Me
  2. My sister Lori
  3. My second cousin Beth
  4. My second cousin Patricia
  5. Joyce’s brother James, my 1st cousin once removed
  6. My sister Heidi
  7. My brother Jon
  8. Skot

Scanning up from Skot, you can see he will match me, my sister Lori, my second cousin Patricia, Jim and my sister Heidi. It looks like I missed Lori in my previous figure.

A Hathaway Tree

This is the Hathaway Tree with the matches from Chromosome 10:

 

This looks like a Triangulation Group (TG).

Here are the Chromosome 15 matches:

 

Here the matches were smaller, but there were more people in the match group or TG. I have other Hartley cousins that did not match Skot from the Grace Hartley Line.

These TGs shows in the images above are very tall. It would be better to have people part way up the tree to verify these. Here is another SAH that Joyce has:

This person has an ancestor not quite as far out. He would be Joyce’s 5th cousin, once removed. If this person uploaded his results to Gedmatch, we may have more confirmation of the Hathway match.

In my last Blog on the subject, I found people that triangulated on Chromosome 10 with other ancestors and not this Hathaway couple. For that reason, I could not be sure that my match with Skot was actually a Hathaway match. Now I do have a triangulations on Chromosomes 10 and 15 that shows Hathaway as a common ancestor. That could mean one or more of several things:

  • One or more of the genealogies could be wrong
  • There is a common TG to a common ancestors, but we haven’t figured out who that is yet
  • Some of the matches in the TG may not be real matches as they are small
  • The TGs may be going back in time to a common pattern for a shared common type of group ancestor – say pilgrim ancestors in general.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Looking at the test results for Joyce has given more certainty that some of the smallish matches with Skot could indicate colonial Hathaway DNA
  • Results from closer Hathaway matches would help confirm that.
  • Triangulation is a good tool, but when it gets down to small matches and distant relationships, it can be difficult to interpret.
  • Triangulation is also difficult when there are different lines of ancestry that are possible. For example, the early prigrims had a small gene pool to choose from so there were many cousin marriages in the colonial days.

 

Two Person Hartley Visual Phasing

I’ve had a FTDNA kit hanging around for my father’s elderly cousin. I’ve had it since last Summer, but haven’t gotten in touch with my second cousin Lisa to see if I could get her uncle tested. This would be important, because I have test results for Lisa’s dad Jim and her Aunt Joyce. The third sibling Ralph would make it easier to perform Visual Phasing.

Visual Phasing

Visual Phasing is comparing siblings’ DNA results in a Chromosome Browser. By looking at changes and comparisons in the Browser as well as matches to known cousins, it is possible to find out what portions of the siblings’ DNA came from which grandparent. For me, this is important as I am interested in separating out matches between my great grandparents Hartley and Snell. Jim and Joyce’s maternal grandparents were James Hartley and Annie Snell. Annie’s ancestors went back to SE Massachusetts Colonial times. James ancestors were from NE Lancashire. I’m stuck on Hartley genealogy in Trawden, Lancashire around 1800. This is due to the fact that there were too many Hartleys in the area at the time to tell one from another based on vital records. Finding Lancashire Hartley ancestor DNA matches may help me break down my Hartley genealogical brick wall.

Joyce and Jim’s Genealogy

The goal of visual phasing is to figure out what parts of Gurney, Rounesville, Harltey and Snell contributed to Jim and Joyce’s DNA. In doing this, it would help to have matches from fairly close (but not too close) relatives on all four lines.

Comparing Jim to Joyce on Chromosome 11

I’ll just jump in and start with Chromosome 11. This is midway between 1 and 22. Here is the comparison between Jim and Joyce:

  • The blue line is where Jim and Joyce match each other
  • Within the blue line there are two types of matches
  • The yellow area is a single match. This is also called a Half Identical Region (HIR). This means that Joyce and Jim get their DNA from one shared grandparent A, but don’t match on grandparent B, C or D. We don’t know now if granparent A is on the maternal or paternal side.
  • The green is a double match. That is called a Fully Identifal Region or FIR. In that area they got the same DNA on their maternal and paternal side of Chromosome 11. That also means that they share the DNA from the same maternal grandparent and the same paternal grandparent
  • The grey, non-blue area (below) and the red area above is where Joyce and Jim do not match. That means that Joyce gets DNA from Maternal grandparent A and Paternal grandparent C while Jim gets his DNA in that area from Maternal grandparent B and Paternal grandparent D
  • At each vertical line above, there is a crossover where Jim or Joyce’s DNA goes from one grandparent to another.

Let’s Start Two Person Visual Phasing

Here is a start. In about the middle of the Chromosome there is a green FIR. That means that Jim and Joyce got their DNA from the same maternal and paternal grandparents. Those grandparents are represented by blue and orange segments. There are crossovers on the right and left of these segments, but we don’t know if the crossovers are for Jim or Joyce (or one for Joyce and one for Jim).

It would be nice to know where the changes take place, so I go to gedmatch.com for that. At gedmatch I compare Joyce to Jim in the chromosome browser at full resolution.

The pink area is the centromere of Chromosome 11. Every ^ is one million places. The start of the green HIR counting back from 60M is 57M.

Here I added the 57 before ‘Chromosome 11’ above. I also added some other crossover locations.

Cousin Matches

I am stuck already in my analysis, so I need some cousin matches. These would ideally be at the level of second cousin matches. At the level of second cousin, you match on only one grandparent. Most known matches matches share Hartley and Snell grandparents, so that is a problem.

Shared Ancestor Hints (SAHs) at AncestryDNA

Joyce’s results are at AncestryDNA. There, she has Shared Ancestor Hints. Those Hints are where Joyce has a family tree match and a tree match. Here is an SAH that Joyce has with Chuck:

Chuck is at the perfect level as he is a 2nd cousin. However, he has not uploaded his DNA to gedmatch for comparison. Ancestry does not show on what Chromosomes you match, so that is a problem. We need chromosome match information for DNA mapping.

Back to Gedmatch

Because many at AncestryDNA don’t upload to Gedmatch, I’ll go back to Gedmatch and look for matches there.

Here is a very interesting match that Sumner and Heather have with Joyce at Gedmatch. This shows that Joyce has an estimated by DNA common ancestor between 3.7 and 3.9 generations away. They also share autosomal DNA and X Chromosome DNA. These two are also at Ancestry and show up on Joyce’s Shared Ancestor Hints.

Here, Joyce and Sumner are 4th cousins by shared trees. However, note that this is only hint 1 of 3. HInt two also goes back to Joyce’s Rounseville grandparent at firth cousin twice removed. Here is Hint 3:

This Snell connection is at 7th cousin once removed. There has to be a very low chance of a DNA match that far out – especially compared to a 4th cousin match . However, this is interesting as it shows that Joyce has two paternal matches with this person and one more distant maternal match.

Here are the important details of the match between Joyce and Sumner:

This shows that Joyce and Sumner match on four different chromosomes, but not Chromosome 11. OK, back to the drawing board. I’ll start over with Chromosome 7. Sumner and Joyce have a pretty good match there.

Chromosome 7 Visual Phase Two Person Map

Note that Joyce’s Chromosome 7 match is from 149 to 158M. That is at the right side of Chromosome 7. It is possible that the 149M could mark Joyce’s paternal crossover. I am going to start from the right of the Chromosome and give Jim and Joyce four different colors there. This will represent all four of their grandparents. I can do that because Jim and Joyce don’t match each other at all in that segment.

Here I have put Joyce in for a possible to likely crossover at 149. Remember that Joyce and Jim don’t match each other at all after 149M. That means that Jim won’t match Sumner either. I checked gedmatch and he doesn’t as expected. Next, I’ll assign Sumner’s match to Joyce on either her green or brown side. I’ll randomly choose green. That puts the paternal side on the top for Jim and Joyce:

Becuase Joyce’s green paternal segment is Rounesville, that means that Jim’s orange segment must be the paternal husband, Gurney.

Next, I would like to check the paternal crossover for Joyce. The recommendation at the Facebook Visual Phasing side is to look for ‘stranger matches’.

Stranger Matches

If I see that Jim has a match or matches that go across the 149 crossover line, then I can assume that he has no crossover there. The hitch is that the match going over the 149 line needs to be on Jim’s paternal side on the top of his Chromosome 7.

Here is a spreadsheet of Jim’s matches on Chromosome 7. Jim’s match with Tim goes clearly from 138-155M. That meets one requirement. Is this a paternal or maternal match for Jim? My thought was that if this match was maternal, then Tim should match my sister Heidi at the top and me at the bottom of the list in blue. I checked and Tim only matched Jim. That means that the crossover belongs to Joyce and is likely on her paternal side. The only thing I didn’t rule out is that the crossover could possibly be on Joyce’s maternal side.

Here I went with my original guess that Joyce’s crossover was on her paternal Gurney/Rounesville side. Because I gave the crossover to Joyce’s paternal side, that meant that there was no other crossover at 149 and I moved the maternal segments to the left. I still have figured out whether Hartley or Snell is blue or brown. Next note that the segment from 110 to 126M is a no-match segment. That means that there must be a maternal crossover next. The reason for that is that no-match means four different colors. Jim and Joyce already have different colors on the maternal side. If we change one of those colors with a maternal crossover, there will be a match between 110 and 126M.

In order to get a no-match from 110-126M, Jim or Joyce’s DNA must be Rounseville from 110 to 126M.

Stranger Match or More Cousin Matches?

I really should go with both, but I’ll start with the stranger match. Jim has matches between 105 and 134 showing no crossover there. When I look at one of those matches and run those that are in common, I get this:

#1 is Jim’s sister Joyce. 2-6 are the strangers and #7 is actually a 2nd cousi of mine, but it could be from a match on another line. So Jim is matching the strangers in that 105 to 134M area. However, he is matching Joyce starting at 126. That gives me the impression that it is Joyce that has the crossover. On the other hand, I don’t see any of Joyce’s matches on her match list that go through 126M.

i am moving slowly from right to left on Chromosome 7. The segments that I am really interested in, I have no information on – except that one is Snell and one is Hartley and they appear to be relatively large segments, so far.

Phasing by Geography

I had mentioned that Snell’s ancestors were from SE Massachusetts going way back. The Hartleys came to the US from Lancashire in the last half of the 1800’s. As far as I know, the Gurneys and Rounesvilles have been around SE Massachusetts for several hundreds of years also. When I look at Joyce’s matches at Chromosome 7, I see some interesting emails. Between 155M and the end of Chromosome 7, Joyce has three small matches with people three people that have nz, au or uk in their email addresses. That gives me the opinion that at least from 154M to the Joyce could have Hartley DNA. That also brings up the question as to whether Joyce has a maternal or paternal crossover at 149M. If I go with what we had already, I would get this:

Starting to Visually Phase Chromosome 8

I can come back to Chromosome 7 at some time. I’m looking at Chromosome 8 as I wrote a Blog about a Lancashire matcher here. Here is how Anne matched Joyce and two of my second cousins:

The important part is that Anne matches Joyce from about 17 to 59M. That is a pretty good match. Here is the common ancestor:

The other important thing is that even though the match points back to Howorth, this is on Joyce and Jim’s Hartley grandparent line.

Here is how Jim and Joyce match each other:

Here I did something different. I started by mapping a HIR or Half Identical Region. That means that one grandparent matched and the other two did not. We know that Joyce matched on the Hartley segment and Jim did not.

That means that the maternal Hartley/Snell side is on the bottom of their Chromosome 8. From here, we can logic a few more segments. Going from HIR to the no-match left, that means the top part will have to change for there to be no match at the beginning of Chromosome 8. Using similar logic, for all to match (in the HIR region), the crossover will have to be on the bottom of Chromosome 8.

Next, on Joyce’s match list, I picked someone who she matched that went through the 70.7M crossover.

I picked the 18 cM match. Then I picked people that matched both Joyce and the stranger’s 18 cM match.

#1 is Jocye’s match to her brother Jim. The next three matches go up to 74, so they go through the crossover. #5 is our stranger, Sheila with the 18 cM match. There is another interesting thing about Match #2. That is Jo who is on Ancestry with a private tree. However, when I click on her name, it says she is from Lancashire, England. Someone with a tree at Ancestry and DNA at gedmatch is good news to me, so I wrote an email to her.

Here is another piece of the puzzle:

I don’t know what the orange represents, but I don’t match Joyce and Jim on that side, so it isn’t as important to me. I was interested in separating the green DNA from the blue – or the Snell from the Harltey DNA. I was able to do that thanks to visual phasing and a match with Anne.

Wrapping It Up

  • It is possible to do some visual phasing with only two siblings. However, cousin matches, and stranger matches are needed.
  • Geographical phasing is also important. I like the use of email extensions to identify non-US matches.
  • Mapping my father’s two cousins is important in separating my Lanchashire ancestors from my colonial Massachusetts ancestors.
  • Work is needed to get AncestryDNA testers to upload their results to gedmatch.com
  • More matches could be found by checking FTDNA
  • More work is needed in tracking down genealogies of gedmatch mathes. This would help identify segmens of visually mapped chromosomes.
  • Attention to mapped segments of interest (in this case Hartley) can lead to matches to follow-up with.

Some Lancashire DNA and Genealogy on My Hartley Line

It’s been a while since I’ve written on my Hartley autosomal DNA and Lancashire connections. Part of the reason is that there haven’t been any or many clear DNA connections on the Hartley side. Perhaps my Hartley lines were not that prolific or the descendants that were there haven’t taken DNA tests. I have found at least one documented Howarth/Howorth connection that I wrote about here.

My Hartley Lancashire Genealogy

My great grandfather James Hartley was born in Bacup, Lancashire. His father lived in Trawden, Lancashire.

James had about as many children as I have identified ancestors for him. All his and his wife’s descendants of my generation are my 2nd cousins. The problem is separating their DNA from his wife’s Snell side. I am stuck at James’ grandfather’s level. I have James’ grandparents as Robert Hartley and Mary Pilling. Before that, on the Harltey side, I have an educated guess for the parents.

Finding an Old EMail of a Hartley DNA Match

While I was looking for an email, I came upon an email from Cai. Hehad his grandmother Jane tested and I was a match with his grandmother Susan.

The part of Jane’s genealogy that Cai and I focused in on was the Hartley part:

Notice that the first male Hartley in Jane’s line was Peter Hartley, born quite a while ago in 1698. However, the name and the place Trawden, Colne were hopeful. Peter is Jane’s mother’s mother’s father’s father’s father’s father’s mother’s father if I have it right. Put another way, Peter Hartley is Jane’s 6th great grandfather. Assuming that Jane and I both descend from Peter (a big assumption as we have no documentation) and that we are both at the same generation from Peter, that would make us 7th cousins. Note that at Gedmatch, the estimated number of generations to a common ancestor between Jane and me is 4.6. That appears to be wildly optimistic or Jane and I just share more than the average DNA given our distant relationship. Peter Hartley is 8 generations from Jane. This seems to be some DNA that has stayed around for a while. There are studies that show that if you are going to match someone distantly, that DNA may hang around for quite a while.

More on Jane and Chromosome 15

I have some other known Hartley descendants and I checked to see if they matched Jane.

Here is Jane’s match to my 2nd cousin Beth, me, my brother Jon and another 2nd cousin Patricia. Actually, my sister Lori should be in there also.

Mapping Chromosome 15 for Joel, Jon and Lori

By knowing how Jon and Lori compare to me and each other, I can map out the DNA that we got from our four grandparents For Chromosome 15, it looks like this:

This shows the DNA we each got from our four grandparents in relative colors. I don’t know which color represents which grandparent or whether the top of the Chromosme is maternal or paternal. To figure that out, I have to look for matches with a known person. In this case, I will look at how my father’s cousin Jim matches the three of us:

On Chromosome 15, Jim matches Lori and me but not Jon from 80 to 95M.

The only place between 80 and 95M where the colors are the same are blue. That means that Hartley is blue as Jim matches us on our Hartley side. That also means that the top of the Chromosome (orange and green) is maternal. Here is where Jane matches Jon, Lori and Joel on the blue Hartley segment near the beginnig of Chromosome 15:

Theoretically, the match could represent the DNA from James Hartley wife Annie Snell. However, all of Annie’s ancestors were from around SE Massachusetts back to colonial times. As I am not aware that Jane has any Massachusetts ancestors, we can assume that the connection is in Lancashire.

More on Jane’s Hartleys in Lancashire

Cai kindly sent me some ideas to go on. He showed me who he had for the children of Peter Hartley b. 1698:

Here are six children of the Peter born in 1698. If we assume that the relation was on Peter’s male Hartley children, that narrows the possibilities down to four. It looks like I had started my own tree based on Cai’s:

I had also found another apparent brother of Peter. Here is what I wrote to Cai in 2016:

I assume that these are the first Peters you mention. However, I note that they lived in Trawden. My guess is that at some time they moved from Trawden to Great Marsden. It looks like Peter had a brother John:

Baptism: 24 Jan 1694/5 St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England
Johannes Hartley – fil Petri Hartley
Abode: Trawden

    Register: Baptisms 1679 – 1697, Page B37, Entry 9
    Source: LDS Film 1471023

Baptism: 14 Mar 1695/6 St Bartholomew, Colne, Lancashire, England
Joannes Hartley – fil Petri Hartley
Abode: Trawden

    Register: Baptisms 1679 – 1697, Page B39, Entry 17
    Source: LDS Film 1471023

I’m not sure why this is in twice. Perhaps a baby died and they named another son for him, or it was recorded twice or there were 2 different families!

At any rate, this is the difficult part of genetic genealogy. To do this right, I would need to build down all the trees. This is much more difficult without a census to show you where the family units were.

Back to the DNA on Chromosome 15

Above I showed how Jane matched me, my brother and sister and two 2nd cousins on the same segment of Chromosome 15. As my 2nd cousins and my siblings all match each other, that would be a Triangulation Group or TG. A TG indicates a common ancestor or ancestral couple.

Here is the match with my family and my two second cousins:

Triangulation really isn’t needed here as we know that James Hartley is our shared common ancestor. However, normally I wouldn’t know if the common ancestor would be James or his wife Annie. As I mention above, in this case it does appear to be James and not Annie based on Jane’s matches at Chromosome 15 to my family and 2nd cousins. We know that Jane descends from some Hartleys in the area where my Hartley were from, but her Hartleys were from about 100 years earlier. This is the situation I have drawn out schematically below:

I have a line going from James Hartley to Peter Hartley, but really, it is just pointing in the general direction of Peter. That seems to be as accurate as I can get with the DNA right now. I do have other DNA matches, but it is not likely that their trees are as complete as Jane’s tree. One good thing about the combined trees that I drew above is that the dates seem to match up. Greenwood Hartley was born in 1831 and Jane’s Richard Alston was born 1822. Robert Harrtley was born 1803 and Robert Alstead was born 1791. All I have to do is fill in the gaps between the ? Line.

People That Match Jane and Me

At Gedmatch, I plugged in my kit number and Jane’s to see who our common matches are. I went down to a match of 20 cM and got this group that matched my and Jane on Chromosome 15:

It is likely that these people also have ancestors in Lancashire. Nunber 1-4 are Lori, Jon, Beth and Patricia already discussed above. Jane is #7. Lori matches me on the whole Chromosome. Remeber in my chromosome map above, Lori and I both had a full Hartley Chromsome on #15.The others matches are difficult to track down.

#6 is Shannon from Australia and has a tree at FTDNA. Hargreaves in Shannon’s tree sounded familiar. I checked him out on her tree. Shannon has a John Hargreaves born 1826 in Lancashire. Turns out that was the best lead of the bunch above (other than Jane).

Summary and Conclusions

I am basically stuck genealogically going back on my Hartley Line. Due to where the Hartleys lived, there is a jungle of similar names which makes the Hartley genealogy difficult. Jane’s DNA results gave some possibility of going down from her Peter Hartley Line of 1698 to see if there is a match-up with my line. That seems to be my best bet right now.

Mapping James Frazer born 1804 and Violet Frazer born 1803

In my last Blog, I wrote about Doreen’s results. Doreen and I have the common ancestors of likely first cousins, James Frazer b. 1804 and Violet Frazer born 1803. For some reason, I don’t believe that I have ever mapped this couple out using Kitty Munson’s Chromosome Mapper.

Descendants of James and Violet Frazer

The people in bold have all taken autosomal DNA tests. That is, except for Rick who took the YDNA test. If I compare myself to Susan, Doreen, Pat, Gladys and Bill, the DNA that we share would represent either James or Violet Frazer.

Kitty Munson’s Utility requires the information be put into a CSV File like this:

I share the first and last segments with Doreen. The second I share with Pat. I share rows 3, 5, and 9 with Susan. I share rows 4 and 8 with Gladys. I share rows 6 and 7 with Bill. However, they are the same segment. One is as reported at FTDNA and one is as reported at Gedmatch.

Here is my map of just these two ancestors:

This is just my map. The map for each of my siblings and my cousin Paul would look different. Also The map for each of the people in the yellow part of the James/Violet Tree would also look different.

Here is the blue James/Violet segments  (now showing as navy blue or black) with other segments I have identified:

Next, I would like to put the ancestors in a better order. They appear randomly, but I am guessing that the first chromosome gets the first color, etc. as I have my table sorted by chromosome. My four grandparents are Hartley, Frazer, Rathfelder and Lentz. So I would like to sort them by these four grandparents. Then I would like the older ancestors in each line first. That is, except for Annie Snell. I have her listed separately as I must have figured out some of my DNA was from her. However, her dark green is overshadowed by the blue Hartley/Snell segments.

My new order will be:

Hartley:

  • Esther Howorth
  • Otis Snell
  • Annie Louisa Snell
  • Hartley/SNell

Frazer:

  • Richard Frazer
  • James/Violet Frazer
  • George Frazer/Margaret McMaster

Rathfelder

  • Hans Jerg Rathfelder/Juliane Bietenbinder
  • Rathfelder/Gangnus
  • Rathfelder/Lentz

Lentz

  • Nicholson/Stanisforth
  • Nicholson/Ellis
  • Lentz/Nicholson

That configuration gives me this:

I like the colors better. However, Annie at the first part of Chromosome 16 is still subsumed in Hartley/Snell in dark green. Also Otis Snell is a tiny segment at about 4cM. I think I’ll take out Otis and Annie:

I like this version the best. I have a lot of Hartley/Snell as this couple had 13 surviving children. As a result, I have a lot of 2nd cousins with matches. Hartley/Snell is now light blue. James/Violet Frazer is now dark green. My goal is to split up the light blue into Hartley and Snell.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I added some important James Frazer/Violet Frazer segments to my Chromosome Map
  • This couple was born in 1803/4.
  • Mapping points out where you have cousin matches and where those matches are missing
  • I hope I haven’t missed any other important ancestor segments on my map

Tracking Some Howorth/Howarth DNA from Bacup, Lancashire

My Hartley ancestors came from Trawden, Lancashire. They were hand loom weavers. Due to the industrialization of weaving, hand loom weaving became obsolete. At that point, the family moved to Bacup, Lancashire where there were weaving mills. There, my ancestor Greenwood Hartley married a local Bacup girl named Ann Emmet. Ann Emmet was the daughter of Esther Howorth b. 1800 and Isaac Emmet. My web page on the Howorth family mentions that she was born either at Nun Hills, Bacup which I identified on a map or Nothill, Bacup. So there is some confusion with names within Bacup.

Anne from Australia: DNA Match and Howarth Descendant

Anne is about the perfect DNA match. She has a tree at Ancestry. She has uploaded her results to Gedmatch.com and she is from Australia. Being from Australia is important. That is because, as I live in Massachusetts, it is not likely that the match is on one of my colonial Massachusetts lines. She has her ancestor as Howarth rather than my Howorth, but I don’t think that is a big deal as these names are so close.

Anne’s Genealogy

Anne’s Howarth Line is on her paternal grandmother’s side:

Anne’s Howarth line goes out as far as James Howarth, born 1768. That would be Anne’s 4th great grandfather. This matches up well with my tree:

This is my grandfather’s tree and I also have a James Howorth born 1768. If Anne and I have our trees right, that would make us 5th cousins.

There were a bunch of Howorths born around the time that Esther and Abram or Abraham were baptized. Here is what Ebenezer Particular Baptist Church looked like around the time they were baptized:

For DNA comparisons, I like to draw top-down trees:

Anne is thinking like me and has had a DNA test for her 1st cousin once removed. Those results should be in in about a month. I have other 2nd cousins that have tested for DNA, but have just put Beth in this tree for now as I believe she has a match to Anne. Let’s assume that the tree is right. That would mean that Esther and Abraham were siblings. Ann Emmet and Elizabeth Howarth were first cousins and should have known each other. James Hartley b. 1862 should not have known Fred Taylor as James moved to Massachusetts with his family in 1869 before Fred was born.

Anne’s DNA

Anne matches me and my three sisters on Chromosome 4:

The first three matches are of 15.8 cM. In my view, any match of 15 cM or more is almost certain to be a genuine match. My brother Jonathan doesn’t match there as he is matching on his paternal grandmother’s side (Frazer) at that location.

Mapping Anne’s DNA Match to My Chromosome Map

That means that I can map that Chromosome 4 segment to either Abraham Howorth or his wife Mary. As I don’t know from which ancestor it came from, I can say one of those parents gave that DNA to their daughter, Esther Howorth b. 1800 for sure. So I will map that Chromosome 4 segment to her:

This is not a big segment that is added in lighter blue, but it about doubles what I had already on Chromosome 4. Also it goes back in time three generations from what I had belonging to either James Hartley or Annie Snell shown in darker blue.

Anne’s Chromosome 8 – We Have Triangulation

Here is how Anne matches some of my relatives on Chromosome 8:

These matches are with Joyce (1), Beth (2) and Patricia (3). I already mentioned Joyce and Beth above. Patricia is Beth’s first cousin and my 2nd cousin. For this to be a Triangulation, Joyce has to match Beth and Patricia and Patricia has to match Beth on this same segment. That is quite likely.  Here is how Joyce matches Beth and Patricia on Chromosome 8:

This is definitely a Triangulation Group. That Group can be visualized this way:

I should note that there a few other of my second cousins that did not match Anne. The point is that it takes a few people testing to get these triangulating results when the common ancestors are born in the 1700’s.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Anne’s combination of where she lived, her DNA matches at Gedmatch.com and Ancestry and her good family tree all helped in this analysis
  • My match with Anne gave me a new mapping area on the paternal side of my Chromosome 4.
  • Anne’s matches would also supply some good mapping for Joyce, Beth, Patricia and my sisters as well as for Anne herself.
  • My conclusion is that the DNA triangulation shown above gives pretty convincing evidence that Esther Howorth b. 1800 and Abraham Howorth b. 1814 were siblings.
  • Now all we have to do is to figure out who Mary is that was married to James Howarth.

 

 

 

Cousin Mike Joins the Fray

I was presently surprised when looking over my AncestryDNA matches recently. I saw my second cousin Mike. Now due to the fact that I have many second cousins descending from James Hartley and Annie Snell, I don’t happen to know them all personally. Fortunately, I do know Mike and if I met him somewhere would surely say hi.

Mike at AncestryDNA

At AncestryDNA there is a button to push called Shared Matches. When I look for Shared Matches between me and Mike, I get a lot of people. I first get my 4 tested siblings. Then I get 11 second cousins. These are actually 2nd cousins by DNA. In other words, Ancestry looks at the amount of DNA shared and guesses that these should be in the 2nd cousin range. So Ancestry has the first four of my list of shared second cousins in the 1st to 2nd cousin range. The rest on the list are in the 2nd to 3rd cousin range. However, these are all actual second cousins that Mike and I share. These would be descendants of the 13 children that my great grandparents James Hartley and Annie Snell had. Actually, first on his list of 2nd cousins is Joyce. She is a first cousin once removed. I had her tested at the last family reunion. I wrote a Blog about her results here, and about Mike’s sister Holly here. Down in the Third Cousin Shared Matches there may be 2nd cousins once removed. There is also one non-Hartley Snell relative listed there.

Mike at Gedmatch

I asked Mike to upload his DNA results to Gedmatch. That is where you can find out more about your DNA. For example, here is how Mike matches his sister Holly on Chromosome 15:

I bring up this example, because full siblings match each other in a different way than any other relationship.

  • We all get a chromosome from our mom and one from our dad. They in turn got one from their mom and one from their dad. That means there are four ways that we can get DNA from our parents. Those four ways are from our four grandparents
  • The blue bar on the bottom shows where Mike and Holly match by DNA.
  • The yellow bar above the blue means that Mike and Holly share the DNA from one parent only. And they get their DNA from only one parent of that parent. However, we don’t know which one right now.
  • The green bar above the blue bar means that Mike and Holly share DNA from both their mother and father. Not only that, they share the DNA from one of the mother’s parents and one of the father’s parents. However, we don’t know which one yet.
  • The red area is where Holly and Mike share no DNA from either parent. That is the opposite of the green area. That means Mike may get his DNA from a maternal grandfather and Holly from a paternal grandmother in that area. I’ll give some examples below.

Here are Mike and Holly’s grandparents:

Here is how Mike and Holly match each other on Chromosome 7:

Below the first green bar (which is called a Fully Identical Region or FIR), I have split this out for Mike and Holly. This is split to identify Mike and Holly’s maternal and paternal sides (but we don’t know which yet). Mike and Holly have two of the same colors. That means that they got the DNA from the same two grandparents. One of those grandparents is paternal and one is maternal. We don’t know which is which yet, but we can easily figure out the paternal grandmother. We can do that because all of Mike and Holly’s second cousin DNA matches on the Hartley side that I mentioned above.

The first match is Mike’s 1st cousin once removed Joyce. Then there are my 4 siblings. #6 and 7 are two other Hartley-descended 2nd cousins. That means that all this DNA maps to Mike’s grandmother Grace May Hartley. Put together, these matches go from 15.6M to 95.6M for Mike.

Here I assigned blue as Mike and Holly’s paternal grandmother. In the green area, Holly had to have the same DNA from the same Hartley grandmother. In the red area, Holly had to have the DNA from her Gifford grandfather because neither grandparent matches in a red area. Now let’s look at Holly’s 2nd cousin matches.

Above, Holly matches Joyce from 6-42M.

Because Holly gets her DNA from her Hartley grandmother before about the 16M mark, that must mean Mike gets his paternal DNA in that area on his Gifford side. Otherwise, he would have matched at least one of his Hartley cousins there.  Then I moved some of the orange DNA to the left. This would be maternal DNA which is from either Jenney or Murray. This also meets the requirement of the first yellow area. That area is called an HIR or Half Identical Region. It is where Mike and Holly share the DNA from one grandparent but not the other. In order to know which grandparent that DNA is from, we would need to have a match to a Murray or Jenney. In order to do this right we would also need another color for the 2nd maternal grandparent.

This is also a lot easier when there are three siblings to compare because then we could find out where the crossovers are. An example of a crossover is on Mike’s DNA where the DNA he got on the paternal side goes from Gifford to Hartley.

Me and Mike and Our DNA

When I look at my DNA matches at Gedmatch, my match with Mike is the highest level shared between any of my second cousins – at least the cousins that have uploaded to Gedmatch. Mike’s sister Holly had the record before that. Here is what the specifics look like between Mike and myself:

At the bottom of the list is a number of 2.7 generations. That is how far back it looks like our common ancestors are based on the DNA match. They are actually 3.0 generations away. That means that we share more than the average DNA for 2nd cousins. Some of my second cousins will share more than average amounts and some will share less than average amounts of DNA. If I look at Mike’s match list, he shares more DNA with two of my sisters and another 2nd cousin than he does with me.

Mapping My DNA By Cousins

I showed one way to map DNA from your grandparents comparing siblings’ DNA. Another way is to directly map your cousins’ matches to a chart. Kitty Munson has developed some software to do this. Right now my map looks like this:

The darker blue maps to James Hartley and Annie Snell. That would be via my 1st cousins once removed and my 2nd cousins with the same ancestors. Mike’s DNA fills in a few blanks in my map:

I guess the changes are subtle. The Hartley side should only ever fill up about one half of my paternal chromosomes. The other half for me would be for Frazer and Frazer ancestors.

Mike’s X Chromosome Matches: No Hartleys There

Mike’s biggest X Chromosome match is with his sister Holly:

Mike, like me, won’t match any Hartley relatives on the X Chromosome. That is because a father never passes an X Chromosome down to a son – only a Y Chromosome. The big match between Mike and Holly is from their mom. She got her X Chromosome from some combination of Jenney and Murray.

Mike’s Lancashire DNA Match

These matches above represent Lee’s DNA matches on Chromosome 13 with 5 siblings in my family, our two 1st cousins once removed and Mike in the green.

I have mentioned in a previous Blog about Joyce, that Hartley descendants have a match with Lee at AncestryDNA and Gedmatch. Lee shows all his ancestors as being from England.

In this match, Lee’s ancestors are in orange and mine are in blue. When I zoom in to Trawden, where the Hartleys were from, I see Lee has ancestors in this area:

At the time our ancestors were in Trawden, they had to go to Colne for baptisms, weddings and funerals as there was no Church of England Church in Trawden. Colne is represented by the orange to the NW of Trawden.

The Snells came to this country in the 1600’s and the Hartleys in the 1800’s. That means that Lee’s matches would be on the Hartley side vs. the Snell side. Lee has two interesting people in his ancestry. One is Margaret Hartley b. 1836 and another is Mary Baldwin b. 1836.

  • Although these two women were both born in 1836, they are in different generations from Lee
  • Margaret Hartley is on Lee’s paternal side and Mary Baldwin is on Lee’s maternal side. If Lee were to ever test his mom, we would know on which side the Hartleys match.
  • Lee doesn’t show any parents for Margaret Hartley or Mary Baldwin

I have our Trawden born ancestor Greenwood Hartley with a Baldwin grandmother:

This is really on the edge of my knowledge. I chose Betty Baldwin and James Hartley as the most likely parents for Robert Hartley out of many potential candidates.

Lee had a dead end for his Margaret Hartley ancestor. Here are some potential parents I found for Margaret:

This was the same issue I had for finding parents for Robert. Was Margaret the daughter of John and Susan Hartley, John and Hannah Hartley or John and Margaret Hartley? Or perhaps even someone else? At least one of the Margarets died young.

Greenwood is staring at me from the past and saying, “You can’t figure out who my are grandparents are? They are _______ and _______”

a look at Mary Baldwin b. 1836

Due to a problem finding Margaret Hartley’s parents, I’ll take a look at a less common surname in Mary Baldwin. Based on this scrawly writing, she was baptized a Wesleyan in Colne:

This baptism was outside the Church of England.  A Wesleyan, perhaps what we would consider Methodist was considered a non-conformist church. Here is some information on Mary’s dad Eli:

And here is a brother of Eli:

I still need to get back a ways to get to our potential ancestor, Betty Baldwin who was born perhaps around 1780. Any potential shared ancestor would likely be Betty’s parents or before. We’ll say that Jane Baldwin was actually Jenney Spencer:

Again, we get a multiple choice for the father of this James Baldwin. Here is a batch of them from around 1790:

Here I will choose the James from Barrowford for a few reasons. One is that his dad was Elias and two, he was from Barrowford. Here is the 1851 Census showing that this James Baldwin was born in Barrowford.

This also shows James son David b. in 1812. That gets us back to the old-timers: Elias and Peggy Baldwin. Unfortunately, it looks like Elias didn’t do too well:

He died of decline at age 35. Betty could have been his daughter, but it would have made for some tight time frames. She would have had to have been born perhaps late 1783. Then she would have been only about 17 at the time of her marriage. So the genealogy is the difficult part of the genetic genealogy.

Summary

Well I looked at some aspects of Mike’s DNA:

  • How Mike and Holly have Fully Identical Regions (FIRs) in their matches with each other. Normally, these FIRs only occur between full siblings.
  • I looked at how to use the matches between Mike, Holly and their cousins to map out which grandparent they got their DNA from on certain parts of their chromosomes.
  • I looked at another way of mapping DNA developed by Kitty Munson.
  • I looked at a DNA match Mike shares with some other Hartley cousins. This DNA match is from an English man with Lancashire ancestors and probably represents deep Hartley ancestors that haven’t been identified yet.

Joyce’s Hartley DNA

At a recent Hartley reunion, I asked Joyce to take an AncestryDNA test and she gladly obliged. Joyce is my father’s cousin. I had already asked Joyce’s brother Jim to take a test at FTDNA and I have been working with his results. My father has a lot of cousins as his grandparents had 13 children that survived past infancy.

Here is a picture of Joyce and her granddaughter that my sister took at this year’s Hartley Reunion:

I remember Joyce’s mom as the one who always had cookies to give out at the family reunion. Joyce knows a lot of Hartleys as she used to be in charge of sending out letters to the relatives.

Joyce’s Genealogy – English, English and English

Here are some of Joyce’s ancestors:

The Hartley part that I am more interested in is on the bottom. Joyce has a lot of English names in her ancestry. Also a lot of Colonial Massachusetts ancestors. The ancestors that were not from Colonial Massachusetts were the Hartleys. They came to the US after the American Civil War. I’m hoping that DNA testing will confirm the last two Hartleys on the chart. They are James Hartley and Betty Baldwin. Those two were my best guess for the parents of Robert Hartley. My problem was that there were a lot of Robert Hartleys born around the same time in the area to different parents.

Ancestry has something called Genetic Communities which shows where your ancestors were in the last 200 years or so. Not surprisingly, for Joyce, her one Genetic Community is Colonial New England:

Joyce’s Matches at Ancestry

Joyce currently shows over 600 4th cousins or closer at Ancestry. That doesn’t mean that all these matches are 4th cousins. It just means that by the level of DNA match, it appears that the match could be at the level of 4th cousins. When I look at the matches, the range that Ancestry gives is actually 4th to 6th cousins. Perhaps because of all the colonial matches, some of the matches appear closer than they actually are. These matches are both on the Hartley and Gurney sides.

Shared Ancestor Hints

Ancestry also has Shared Ancestor Hints (SAHs). An SAH is when there is a DNA match to a person and also a match in the family tree. These hints are very accurate at close range, but may need checking at the more distant connections. Here is Joyce’s very accurate SAH with my sister Lori:

I’ve erased some of the information for privacy, but this shows that Lori and Joyce are 1st cousins, once removed. Joyce will show similar match results for all of my very many 2nd cousins.

Here is one of Joyce’s more distant Colonial Massachusetts cousins:

Here Ancestry has found a DNA match with this person and a family tree match with the common ancestors of Francis Crapo and Patience Spooner. This would be a good family tree match if both family trees were filled out well and there were no other matches. However, the tree on the right also shown below is missing some lines:

The match should be the bottom side of this tree. However, there is some missing information on the bottom. There are no parents for Weston, Pittsley, Reynolds, etc. However, lets assume that the DNA is actually on the Spooner side which then goes up to Crapo and Spooner. I suppose that means that Patience Crapo could have married a Spooner relative.

Joyce’s Spooner Match at Gedmatch

Once Joyce’s results came in, I uploaded them to Gedmatch.com. I like this site because you can tell a lot more about your matches. Fortunately, the Spooner/Crapo match above also uploaded to Gedmatch.

At gedmatch, I can see that the match is on Chromosome 3. Ancestry doesn’t give specific match location for their DNA matches. However, the bottom line is that wherever I or my siblings or my cousins match Joyce at this particular spot, it means that it likely represents colonial Massachusetts DNA that came through the Snell side.

People That Match Joyce and Jocye’s Crapo/Spooner Match

It is possible to run a facility at Gedmatch that shows people that match two other people that match each other by DNA. When I put Joyce and her Crapo/Spooner match, I get these people:

Above the reference person is Joyce. #3 is her Crapo/Spooner match. #1 is my 2nd cousin Patricia. She is also a 1st cousin, once removed to Joyce, so matches her in quite a few places by DNA. The other people are those who I don’t know, but they probably descend from Crapo and/or Spooner.

A Lancashire DNA Match?

As I mentioned above, Joyce has three quarters colonial Massachusetts ancestry and one quarter more recent Lancashire, England ancestry which happens to be Hartley. I found a match recently on Gedmatch which is interesting. The match is with Lee and is a fairly good size. Here is how Lee matches on Chromosome 13 with my three sisters, me, Joyce and her brother Jim:

Note that Lee matches all of us for the same amount. This means that Lee has a segment passed down from one of his grandparents that starts and ends on the yellow that matches all of us. We would have longer portions of that DNA on either side of Lee’s segment.

All of Lee’s ancestors are from England and most  from Lancashire, which would make me believe that the match is on the Hartley side. The other colonial ancestors that Joyce have go back to England so long ago, that she shouldn’t be matching on those ancestors. Here are Lee’s ancestors:

It is also interesting that Lee has a Hartley ancestor (but no information on her parents). Margaret Hartley named her son, Robert Hartley Taylor. The mother of John Clark is a Baldwin. I had mentioned above, that it is possible that there is a Baldwin in the Hartley ancestry. So that would be interesting to follow up also. Both these people were from the Colne area where the Hartleys were baptized, had funerals and married.

Another Lancashire Match in Mary Pilling

Joyce has a DNA match with two Mary Pilling descendants at Ancestry. One of those, a Wilkinson, has uploaded his results to Gedmatch. Mary Pilling is the mother of three families: Pilling, Hartley and Wilkinson. Here is how the match looks like at Ancestry:

Joyce is actually a half 3rd cousin once removed to her match. That is because after Robert Hartley died, Mary Pilling married a Wilkinson. So that makes for an obscure relationship and not much of a chance for a DNA match, but there is one. Here is how the match looks like at gedmatch:

The above represents Wilkinson’s match with Joyce and her brother Jim at the end of Chromosome 21.

Summary

Joyce’s results at Ancestry push back the matches one more generation at AncestryDNA compared to my generation. As a result, there are many more Hartley and non-Hartley DNA matches to investigate. If I can get the results of one more of Joyce’s siblings I will be able to tell where Joyce and her sibling got their DNA from each of their 4 grandparents. That would reach back to James Hartley and Annie Louisa Snell. Knowing this would make it easier to tell if their DNA matches represent Lancashire, England or Colonial Massachusetts. This may also help push back the Hartley ancestry which is currently stuck in the early 1800’s.

Chasing Down Some Massachusetts Colonial DNA

Recently I was contacted by someone I knew in high school who said, “Who knew we were related?” Skot had tested his DNA at Ancestry and had found me as a Shared Ancestor Hint. Ancestry compares your trees and if there is a match in ancestors and a match in DNA you are put on a list.

Shared Hathaway Ancestors

Skot’s and my genealogy research both lead to Simon Hathaway and Hannah Clifton.

I have the above chart to my grandfather and Skot’s grandmother. The chart says that Skot and I are seventh cousins. Simon and Hannah were born in the early 1700’s and married in Rochester, Massachusetts. This is interesting as Skot and I both grew up in Rochester.

Does Skot and My Shared  DNA Point to Hathaway and Clifton?

AncestryDNA doesn’t show that the DNA you share is the same DNA of your shared ancestor. It sort of implies that but doesn’t prove that. To prove that, we need to use triangulation and have chromosome browser. I asked Skot to upload his DNA results to Gedmatch where we could compare the DNA results. Here is what my match with Skot looks like at Gedmatch.com:

This shows that we match on Chromosome 10. I have a paternal phased kit at Gedmatch, and Skot also matched me there. That match shows that we match on my father’s side who had the Hathaway ancestors, so that is good.

Further, I have mapped my Chromosome 10 and it shows we match in an area where I got my DNA from my Hartley grandparent and not my Frazer grandparent whose parents were from Ireland. That is also a good sign:

This map shows me as J on the fourth bar. The Hartley is in orange and for me it goes from position 32M to 114M. According to Gedmatch, I match Skot from 68M to 77M, so that is well within my orange Hartley grandfather DNA area.

Triangulation of DNA

Triangulation of DNA is when A matches B, B matches C and A matches C. This is fairly easy to do. Once this triangulation occurs, it indicates a common ancestor. It is more difficult to find the common ancestor of that triangulation for various reasons. The next thing I look at is my sister Lori’s spreadsheet of matches. These matches have tested at various places and uploaded their results to Gedmatch.com. I’m looking at Lori’s matches because she matches Skot also, and because her test is more recent, so I have more matches for her.

Lori’s biggest match is 54, but that is with me. Lori matches Skot from about 68 to 77M, so these all start before that point. A few end before then. Lori has other matches in this region. Lori’s matches tested at AncestryDNA, 23andme and FTDNA. I tend to prefer AncestryDNA matches as the family trees are easier for me to read.

Lori’s first match of 22 cM is with Cheryl. Skot and Cheryl match at about the same spot and about the same cM as Lori and Skot match. That means the three triangulate.

Now the Hard Part – Finding the Common Ancestor

Cheryl has over 25,000 people in her tree. Does she have Hathaways or Cliftons? At Ancestry, Cheryl and Lori are not Shared Ancestor Hints to each other. According to AncestryDNA, the common surnames between Lori and Cheryl are:

However, Baker and Schmidt appear to me on my mom’s side, so I won’t look at those. Phillips and Warren didn’t show anything obviously helpful. When I click on Cheryl’s White, I get this:

This is interesting as I have ancestors in Dighton on my Snell Line and also White and Hathaway ancestors. With a little trial and error, I see that Elizabeth Hathaway’s mother is Elizabeth Talbot. That is one of my ancestral names also. Elizabeth’s parents according to Cheryls were Jared Talbot and Sarah Andrews. I have a match in that couple. Here is my tree:

This is what I meant when I said that finding common ancestors among triangulated matches was not easy. I’m not happy that Lori and Cheryl’s common ancestor is from the 1600’s, but at least we found a match. Perhaps we will come back to Cheryl. Right now, a tie-breaker would help. Hathaway/Clifton or Talbot/Andrews?

Skot’s Genealogy

Here is the spot of Skot’s genealogy where Ancestry has us matching:

Note that Ancestry simplified the situation a bit. We are matching on Simon Hathaway and Hannah Clifton. However, we also match on Arthur Hathaway. It is even more confusing than that because Arthur Hathaway was also the father of Simon Hathaway by his first wife Maria Luce. Wow. Then Skot has more than one Clifton in there.

Shamus Match

One of my good matches at Chromsome 10 in this area of interest is Shamus. He matches me closely at 43.8 cM by FTDNA and 39.4 by Gedmatch.com. According to FTDNA, we share the following surnames:

Barstow Cook Swift Samson Talbot Taylor Townsend White Wing Ward

I looked through these names, but saw no obvious connection before the 1700’s.

Sarah Match

Sarah matches Lori at 18 cM. She is at FTDNA. Her surnames that match are:

Clark Hatch Jewett Johnson Lutzelburger Lutzelberger Lombard Richmond Spooner Smith White Wing

At least between Shamus and Sarah are the common White and Wing names. By the way, Sarah has a different last name at Gedmatch and FTDNA, but I assume that she is the same person. Actually there is a way to prove it, because FTDNA has a chromosome browser. Here is how Sarah matches me using FTDNA’s chromosome browser:

Again, the DNA part is easy. It is the genealogy that is a bear.

Here is Sarah’s White and Wing connection:

Here is how I connect:

Again it is not a very satisfying connection. We connect only on Daniel Wing at the top. Our ancestors appear to be from two different mothers and Daniel who was born in 1617. I wasn’t able to place Sarah’s Hannah White.

I didn’t find out much about Joanne or Joanna Hatch. I did read an account of a family tradition that said that Joanna and Bachelor Wing were cousins.

At this point, I’m ready to call it quits.

Summary of Genealogy Linked to DNA

So far I match:

  • Skot on Hathaway/Clifton – early 1700’s Rochester, MA
  • Cheryl – Talbot/Andrews 1640’s Dighton, MA
  • Shamus and Sarah – Wing 1617 Sandwich, MA

I’m sure there are other connections.

Continuing to Work Down My Sister Lori’s Match List

There are some 23andme matches, but I have no idea how to find their ancestry without contacting them. Next I see Michelle. I am able to find her using a Chrome add-on to AncestryDNA which I think is called DNA Helper. She matches at 22 cM at Gedmatch. Oddly, she matches at 27.6 cM at AncestryDNA where the matches are usually less than at Gedmatch. Unfortunately, her tree is private. I have been in touch with her by email and she says she is related to the Hatch family somehow. The next match is Sean at FTDNA, but he has no family tree.

Summary and Conclusion

  • The DNA shows that there is a common ancestor between the paternal matches that I have on a particular segment of Chromosome 10
  • Finding the one common ancestor of a triangulated group is difficult
  • It is likely that there are holes in the ancestry trees of these Chromosome 10 matches. If all those holes were filled in, then the common ancestor may become apparent.
  • While I was doing this exercise I filled in some missing ancestors on my Jewett line. One ancestor was a Reverend up in Rowley which I found interesting. So this exercise wasn’t a total waste of time.
  • Skot and I still likely match on Hathaway and Clifton. However, the DNA tests we both took don’t necessarily point to those two ancestors.
  • At this point, the only triangulated ancestors I found in this Chromosome 10 group was Daniel Wing from Sandwich b., 1617.
  • In summary, the DNA is saying that there is some kind of colonial Massachusetts ancestry passed down. However, whether that ancestry is from Dighton, Rochester or Sandwich, MA or even somewhere else is not clear.

 

 

 

 

Cousin Holly’s Hartley DNA Results

I have many 2nd cousins. Over 100 I’m sure. My Hartley great grandparents had 13 children. All their descendants in my generation are 2nd cousins.Holly is one of those 2nd cousins. My first recollection of Holly is that she was creating a bit of commotion at our Town’s ball field. I was probably about 5 years old at the time. I had an impression that she may have been a relative but I wasn’t sure. Holly was challenging the local boys in a foot race and beating them. I was thinking that she was one cool girl.

So far on my Hartley side, those in gold below have tested and uploaded and uploaded to Gedmatch.com:

Note that Patricia and Beth are also first cousins to each other.

Here’s Holly’s grandmother Grace Hartley. I borrowed the photo from Holly’s Ancestry Tree:

Does she look like Holly? I think so. Except I don’t picture Holly as looking as serious.

All the Hartley cousins in the chart above have James Hartley and Annis Louisa Snell in common. But we won’t know which – easily. Another point is that everyone has eight great grandparents. So all the second cousins get 2/8 or 1/4 of their DNA from these two great grandparents. That is, on average. Here are the numbers of how Holly matches the tested Hartleys:

The Gen is how far it seems that the common ancestors are away based on the DNA match. James, my dad’s 1st cousin seems 2.5 away. That is just right for a 1st cousin once removed. Holly should match her 2nd cousins on average at a level of three. That is because our great grandparents are 3 generations away from us. Because of the random way we get our DNA, however, Holly is more closely matching Joel, Beth and Patricia and is further away matching on my four siblings.

The X Chromosome Rule

There is a rule that the X Chromosome does not pass down from father to son.

That means that no X Chromosome from Greenwood Hartley got passed down to any of us. That also means that no Hartley X Chromosome got passed down to anyone in my family. That is why Holly matches James, Beth and Patricia on the X Chromosome and only incidentally matches Lori and Heidi from my family.

Here is how Holly matches James, Beth, Patricia and incidentally my 2 sisters.

Holly and Jim have a longer match as they are more closely related (1st cousin, once removed). As a rule, the more closely you are related, the longer the segments.

Shared Autosomal DNA

Holly and I share this much DNA:

By comparison, here is my overall Chromosome map before I add in my DNA matches with Holly:

On my map, the James Hartley/Annie Snell part is shown in darker blue. It looks like Holly’s DNA could add quite a bit to my map. Ideally, if I could test enough relatives, the dark blue whould fill up 1/2 of my paternal chromosome. The other half should be from my paternal grandmother who was a Frazer.

Here is Holly’s DNA added in. I also added a maternal first cousin who contributed to my first substantial X Chromosome match:

Remember I get no X Chromosome from my dad (top part of each line). So that has to be blank on the X Chromosome.

Next I’ll add in 1st cousin once removed Jim to Holly’s map:

Jim’s contribution to our great grandparents is in blue. Notice that now the X Chromosome is kicking in.

Adding beth’s DNA to Joel and Jim

Here is the addition of Beth’s DNA:

Note that Holly has a lot of matches on Chromosomes 5 and 9. That must mean that Holly got most or all of her paternal DNA on that Chromosome from her Hartley grandmother, Grace May.

Kicking it up a notch

Next I’d like to add my siblings’ results to ‘the other matches on Holly’s Chromosome map. My siblings’ results plus mine should be similar in size to Holly’s matches with Jim, my dad’s first cousin. It takes 5 siblings to get about the same DNA as you would have for one parent. While I’m at it, I’ll add Patricia.

This is all Holly’s DNA that she got from James Hartley and Annie Snell, her great grandparents based on the matches that we’ve looked at so far. I probably should have lumped Beth and Patricia together as they have the same Hartley grandmother [Mary], but I didn’t.

Separating the Hartley and Snell DNA

One thing I would like to do would be to separate the Snell DNA from the Hartley DNA. If I could do this I could find matches that were just Snell or just Hartley. The DNA matching is about narrowing down the possibilities. The best way to do this would be to have a match that is known to be a Snell but not Hartley or a Hartley but not Snell. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any such people. The next best thing to do is to guess. One way to guess is called phasing by location. So, say I have a match with a lot of ancestors from colonial New England, but not Lancashire. And I would need to know that I match this person on my Hartley side (not my mother’s side). I would say that this would likely indicate DNA from the Snell Line. That is because the Snell ancestors go back to Colonial New England and the Hartleys came later from Lancashire, England.

My Chromosome 16

Here is a section of the first part of my Chromosome 16 matches (without the matches’ names) in spreadsheet form:

Each line represents a different match with someone. About half way down this list I have a match with Ned at 39.93 cM. I don’t know who our common ancestor is, but Ned has a lot of colonial New England ancestors, including the Warren Pilgrim family. I also am descended from the Pilgrim Warrens, but it is generally thought that a DNA match that large would be likely to last that long.

Triangulating with ned

Triangulation shows what common ancestors unknown DNA matches may have. Triangulation is when you match someone’s DNA, they match another person’s and you and the other person all match. Successful triangulation shows that all the DNA came from the same ancestor.

Here is my match with Ned:

Here is Holly’s match with Ned:

To close the loop, I have to match Holly in the same area of Chromosome 16:

No problem. This shows that Holly, Ned and I share an ancestor. By Ned’s Ancestry Tree, we think this is a New England Colonial ancestor, but we aren’t sure which New England Colonial ancestor it is. However, as Annie Snell has New England Colonial ancestors and James Hartley doesn’t I am pretty sure I can assign this segment to Annie instead of James.

This means I can update my Chromosome map with my first New England Colonial piece of DNA represented by Annie Louisa Snell on Chromosome 16. This is shown in light blue:

The other interesting thing about this piece of DNA, is that it not only is from Annie Louisa Snell, it is also from some New England Colonial person – the one I haven’t figured out yet that we have in common with Ned.

Other New England Colonial Connections Between Holly and Me

AncestryDNA recently came out with a new feature called Genetic Community. That feature lumps you into a group with a bunch of other people based on your DNA testing. One of those groups is called Settlers of Colonial New England. Here are my Genetic Communities (or GCs).

Notice I get a Likely rating for those Colonial Settlers. Holly, on the other hand, has one Genetic Community:

She gets a Very Likely. That means she is super Colonial New England. Holly has a Connection Link under her Settlers of Colonial New England. Under that link is another link that leads to “…a list of all 238 of your DNA matches who also belong to this Genetic Community.” Under my similar link I have 110 DNA matches. However, Ned that I mentioned above matches me under Settlers of Colonial New England. He doesn’t match Holly in her list for some reason – even though I showed that we triangulate. In addition, Holly and I match each other on our lists of DNA matches under Settlers of Colonial New England.

Summary

There’s plenty more I could have written about, but I’m a gonna wrap it up:

  • Holly is more Colonial than I. I expect her other non-Snell ancestors contributed more in this area
  • I looked at a way to separate out ancestral DNA when other reference matches are missing
  • We are getting a good group of Hartley/Snell descendants that have had their DNA tested and have uploaded to Gedmatch.com for comparison
  • I never knew Holly looked so much like her Hartley/Snell grandmother.