I was glad to hear from Doreen’s cousin Pat that Doreen’s DNA results were in. Doreen can now join her DNA results with many Frazers descending from North Roscommon County, Ireland.
Doreen’s Frazer Genealogy
It’s a bit complicated, but here is one section of Doreen’s Frazer Tree:
This is a section that I’m partial to as I’m in it. Notice at the top there are two Frazers. From what I can tell, these two were first cousins. Violet descended from Richard Frazer and as far as I can tell or guess, James came from his brother Phillip Frazer.
The Bigger Picture
Here’s a somewhat outdated tree of lines of Frazers that have had their DNA tested. I cut off the bottom two generations for privacy. James from Philip is in first blue line. However, Doreen with several others also descend from a third Frazer brother named Archibald who married Ann Stinson. That means that Doreen descends from her 5th great grandfather Archibald Frazer three different ways.
I would like to look at Doreen’s DNA and try to figure out if her DNA supports the trees we have or not. Doreen’s sister Susan has also had her DNA tested. Doreen’s brother Rick has had his YDNA tested. This is important as a direct male Frazer descedant is needed for that. Doreen has another brother and we are waiting for his results. That is because with the results of three siblings, it is possible to map out your the DNA you got from each grandparent. That makes it a lot easier to identify your matches.
Doreen and the Archichald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line
I’ll start with this Line as it is less complicated.
The only ones that complicate this tree are Jane and Michael. They both share the Richard Frazer Line with the yellow group. However, the good news is that the other lines are only in the Frazer/Stinson group. When I compare these people in a matrix, this is what I get:
I highlighted Jane and Michael as they have other Frazer ancestors. The close relationships between the poeple in the yellow George Frazer Line show up in green in the bottom right of the matrix.
Looking for James and Philip Frazer
When I did my genealogy, I knew that a James Frazer was married to a Violet Frazer. Violet was the son of Richard Frazer born about 1777. However, I have a lot less information on James Frazer.
According to the list of references compiled by Michael of this project:
This compilation of the records say that James was the son of Philip, but my guess is that the actual records don’t say that. They likely just say that James Frazer married Violet Frazer on 23 Jan 1828 and that James and Violet had a son Philip born not too long after on 28 May 1828. It was my assumption that James was the son of Philip as he named his first son after his father as per a common tradition of the day.
Here is some research that was done many years ago by one of Doug’s relatives:
This shows Violet married to James, but doesn’t show that James was the son of Philip. This appears to indicate that Richard also had a son named James.
How To Design a DNA Plan To Find James and Philip
First, it would be helpful to have other descendants of Philip, but I am not aware of any. Here are some ancestors of Richard that have had their DNA tested:
Of these people, I am the least sure about David on the bottom left. He has an ancestor James from Enniskillen that I added in because the dates mathced up and David matches by DNA. Jane was also added in but she has a lot of matches. Michael is quite sure his ancestry goes back to Richard.
Another Look at David
I haven’t looked at David for quite a while. He is in a Triangulation Group on Chromosome 12 with these people:
All these people descend from Richard Frazer b. 1777, so that adds some weight to where I put David in the tree above.
The Philip Frazer Line
The Philip Line should be very similar to the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line, but simpler:
So a DNA plan should try to determine:
- Were James and Violet first cousins? This may be a little difficult to determine as they are four generations back from Gladys and Paul and 5 generations back from the other testers.
- Is there a way to separate the DNA identified as being from Violet from that DNA from James Frazer b. 1804. This would seem to be even more difficult. Michael and Jane, inasmuch as they match my family or Paul would match at the Richard level for Violet. Matches through Phillip would be at one level higher at the level of Archibald Frazer b. about 1743 married to Mary Lilley. Again, the levels of DNA matches out that far are pretty variable, but I may be able to do something with all the testers we have.
The Effect On DNA Of First Cousins Marrying
This effect can be important for certain Frazer descendants. For example, Michael in the project also descends from two first cousin Frazers. I wrote a Blog in 2016 on Frazer Cousin Marriages here. Take the James Frazer/Violet Frazer marriage for example. You would think that The purple line and the yellow lines would have higher than normal matches with each other. However, those matches should be at the same level regardless of the fact that they are 1st cousins. The effect of the cousin marriage is not that great and takes place two generations prior to James and Violet. That means that the third cousin match between Gladys and Paul will overshadow any effect of an additional common ancestor at the 5th cousin level. Where the effect makes a difference is for others that only match on that common ancestor of Archibald Frazer b. 1743 (and his wife Mary Lilley).
James Frazer/Violet Frazer Matches
There are 11 people tested that descend from James Frazer and Violet Frazer b. 1803. Here is how they look in an autosomal matrix:
The people in the top left box all descend from George Frazer b. 1838. The people in the bottom right box descend from his brother Richard Patterson Frazer b. 1830. The matches in the bottom left and top right betwen the two Lines represent James Frazer and Violet Frazer. Gladys has the most matches in that category. About half of the DNA from these matches should be from James Frazer b. 1804 and half from his 1st cousin wife Violet Frazer b. 1803.
Detailed James/Violet DNA
Here is what I see on Chromosome 1:
I have the Richard Patterson Frazer Line in yellow above and the George Frazer Line in blue. It turns out that Chromosome 1 has a lot of matches for the Archibald Line of Frazers. From above, Gladys, Doreen and Jonathan (my brother) match from about 190M to 200M. To complete the Triangulation Group (TG), Gladys and Dorreen have to match each other. They do in that same area.
Here I have added in the new TG:
However, to do these TGs justice I will need to compare Doreen to everyone in the group. However, the way it looks now is that there is a TG in yellow for James and Violet Frazer. Then from 198 to 200M there is a TG representing the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line. At 203-241 there is a TG which appears to represent the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line. There is quite a bit going on.
On Chromosome 6 there is another apparent James/Violet TG:
Here is a quick update for Doreen on the TG Summary Sheet:
However, recall that I didn’t look into Michael or Jane’s results or any of the other Frazer DNA tested members.
Doreen’s DNA Compared To All DNA Tested Frazers in the Project
First I filtered out Doreen’s closer Richard Patterson Frazer Line matches to see which more distant relatives Doreen matched:
Doreen matches Janet from the James Line on Chromosome 14. Doreen also matches Vivien and Rita from the Archibald/Stinson Line. Michael and Jane could be from the Archibald or Richard Frazer Line. The Jonathan she matches is my brother, not Joanna and Janet’s brother. You can see some of the DNA inheritance patterns if you look at how Doreen matches my family. She matches me and my brother and sister Jonathan and Lori on Chromosome 6. She matches Jonathan and Sharon on Chromosome 9 and she matches me and my two sisters Heidi and Sharon on Chromosome 18. Doreen matches all of us on our paternal side. However, the DNA we got on our paternal side is switching from Hartley to Frazer and back again. It would be unusual for Doreen to match all five siblings on the Frazer side at a particular segment of a chromosome. Likewise, Doreen matches my family on her paternal side, but the DNA she got on paternal chromosomes are switching back and forth between her grandparents Frazer and Gray.
Back to Chromosome One – James and Violet Identified?
[This was a late-breaking edit I added after writing this Blog.]
I mentioned Chromosome One above. It appears that Doreen is in a new James/Violet TG there from 190M to 200M. However, right before that point, Doreen matches Michael from about 178-191M:
It is possible that Doreen has a crossover right around 190M. If this is right, then this could be the crossover passed down from her great grandfather George Frazer of his grandparents James and Violet Frazer. Here is my reasoning. The match Doreen has with Michael could represent their common ancestor of Richard Frazer b. about 1777. Richard had Violet and Isabella. Doreen descends from Violet and Michael descends from Isabella. This match between Doreen and Michael ended at about 190M. Starting at 190M, Doreen begins to match with Gladys and Jonathan. That was the TG that represents either James or Violet Frazer. As Doreen appears to have a change at this location, this could be the change or crossover from Violet Frazer to James Frazer in her ancestry. I don’t know if I have proven that these two segments represent Violet and James Frazer, but I think that I have made a good case. To me, this helps explain all the DNA matchingis going on in Chromosome 1 between the different Frazer Lines.
Doreen Shows an Ancient Crossover in Vivien?
Here is an interesting match in Chromosome 2:
Doreen matches Vivien from 75M to 81M. However, Vivien matches Jane right up to 75M then goes on to match Doreen. That looks like a crossover.
This could be the match between Vivien and Jane:
This could be the match between Vivien and Doreen:
My thought was that at 75M Vivien has a crossover. That means that Vivien’s DNA crossed over from Catherine Parker to her husband Archibald Parker at 75M. Doreen does not descend from this couple, so her match must be coming from further up. That would be either Archibald Frazer b. 1778 or Ann Stinson. The three matching people pointing out this crossover are from Australia, Colorado and Canada.
Sorting Out Doreen’s Chromosome 9
Doreen has a TG in yellow which may represent James and Violet. Then Doreen has a green TG with Doug and Rita which would indicate an Archibald/Stinson TG.
However, between those TGs, Doreen has a single match with Jane:
At first, I thought that this match with Jane may indicate a crossover for Doreen. However, it may also indicate a false match between Jane and Doreen. Note that sisters Susan and Doreen match each other between 155 and 140M. Why wouldn’t Jane also match Susan if it was a true match?
Doreen’s TG on Chromosome 16
Here we see a TG between Patricia, Susan, Doreen and Vivien:
Doreen, Susan and Pat are 4th cousins, once removed with Vivien.
Here is the TG Summary Sheet:
Vivien looks far away in the chart but that is because many are in the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line as well as the Archibald/Stinson Line.
Summary and Conclusions
- Some of Doreen’s matches on Chromosome 1 appear to define separate segments for married first cousins James Frazer b. 1804 and Violet Frazer b. 1803
- Doreen’s DNA results have revealed some new Triangulation Groups
- Doreen’s TGs appear to represent James and Violet Frazer ancestors or Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Ancestors
- Doreen’s results brought out some matches with Vivien
- Two matches with Vivien appeared to show a crossover in Vivien’s DNA from Parker to Frazer
- One single match with between Doreen and Jane could be false
- A look at David’s TG appears to have him more solidly in the Richard Frazer Line (b. 1777)
- When Doreen’s brother’s DNA results come in, it will be possible to look at visual phasing of three siblings’ DNA. This will show where they got their DNA from each of their four grandparents.