Another Frazer Joins YDNA Testing

Joanna, who has had her brother tested for the BigY. informed me of a new YDNA match for the Frazer family. This is big news when a new Frazer match appears. The new match is Richard.

Some of Richard’s YDNA Matches

Here Richard shows up as the fifth match to my cousin Paul:

The new tester, Richard, has tested for 37 STRs. The first three on the list are known to be related to each other by genealogy. Those three and Paul all have ancestors from Northern County Roscommon by the early 1700’s.  Here is how they are related as best we can figure:

How Richard Shows Up on Jonathan’s List

Richard shows up as a Genetic Distance (GD) of 2 on Jonathan’s list. On Paul’s list, Richard has a GD of 4.

More YDNA Comparisons – YDNA TIP Report

On Jonathan’s match list, I ran the ‘TIP’ report. This is an estimation of how far away Richard and Jonathan’s common ancestor is:

This report makes it look like Jonathan and Richard are related in the not too distant past. The likelihood that Jonathan and Richard have a common ancestor in the last 5 generations is close to 90%. A 67 STR test would give better results as it is possible that Jonathan and Richard have more STR differences in the second tier of STRs. If these results are born out, there would be a good chance that Richard’s ancestors were from North County Roscommon Ireland.

TIP Report for Richard and Paul

If Richard is from the James Line of the Frazer Tree, then I would expect that Paul would be 6 generations to the common ancestor of James.

Looking at Richard’s STRs

One thing that jumped out at me was STR 447:

Those in green have a Frazer or Frasher ancestor. They also have a 447 STR of 24. All those above are Grant, Chisum, Hayes or Whittaker and have a STR value of 25 or higher. That could mean that among families that are closely related to the Frazers, the Frazers alone have a STR of 24 at this location. This gives me some confidence that Richard is related to our line of Frazers. The question then becomes whether his ancestors were in North County Roscommon or whether our common ancestor goes further back to Scotland.

STR 391

Another interesting STR is 391. Rick and Paul are both on the Archibald Line and have a STR value of 11:

Jonathan and Rodney are known to be on the James Line and have a STR value of 10.

This shows that the first Frazer known to be in North County Roscommon had a STR value of 10 at location 391. Somewhere on the Archibald Line on the left between the first Archibald and James born around 1804, the value of that STR changed from 10 to 11. This doesn’t prove that Richard is from the James Line as Grants, Chisum, Whittaker and Hayes also have a 391 value of 10,

Frasher and Frizelle

Jonathan also matches a Frizelle at 37 STRs at a GD of 1. Putting Jonathan and Frizelle into the TIP report also shows a probable close relationship. The Frizelle that Jonathan matches by YDNA has an ancestor of William Frizelle. I wonder if there is a connection between this William Frizelle and Richard’s William Frasher.

Further Options for Richard

Richard may want to upgrade to the 67 STR test. An autosomal DNA test would also be interesting to see if he matches anyone in the Frazer DNA Project. The autosomal test would be the less expensive option. If Richard is from the James Line, it is likely that the autosomal test would reveal that. If no matches with the Frazer DNA Project show up in the autosomal DNA test, then further YDNA testing may be of further use.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Richard’s recent YDNA test appears to show a pretty close relationship to Frazers from North Roscommon County, Ireland
  • Autosomal DNA testing, if taken, could reveal more matches to those already in the Frazer DNA Project for descendants of those Frazers from North Roscommon
  • Richard shares a STR that has been found to be unique to the Frazers up to this point
  • There is also a Frizelle who has found to be fairly closely related by YDNA to the North Roscommon Frazers, however his results have not been posted to my knowledge
  • It will be interesting to see what additional genealogy or DNA testing will reveal

My Mitochondrial DNA

This is my 233rd Blog and the first I have devoted entirely to mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). This is about as technical as I’ll get with mitochondrial DNA:

The above is from Wikipedia. I had heard that Darwin understood a cell to be just a blob as it was one of the most basic elements known at the time. Perhaps he would be surprised to know that so much is going on in a cell. Mitochondrial DNA is passed down only from a mother to her children. YDNA passes only from father to son. However, Mitochondrial DNA passes down from mother to daughter and from mother to son.

My Line of Mitochondrial DNA

This is my line of inheritance of mitochondrial DNA is from mother to daughter going back as far as I can:

I’m sure of Martha Ellis. Her mom, Nancy Roebuck is not 100% certain, but as sure as I can be right now. Before that, Ann Scott would be a little less sure.

My MtDNA Matches

I have four perfect matches. They are:

  • Nancy
  • Terrence
  • John
  • Anthony

My most recent mtDNA match was with Anthony. I have been in touch with his sister Gillian. Here is their maternal line:

When I put the two trees together, I get this:

It is possible that Ann Scott and Bridget are sisters. However, the common ancestor is more likely further back.

More About the MtDNA – H5’36


Here are my H5’36 matches at FTDNA:

The Genetic Distance (GD) is listed on the left. I have been in touch with the first four matches. I should also look into the matches that have a GD of 1. It occurs to me that a line could have had a mutation in the 1800’s or 1900’s and have a closer common ancestor with me than someone with a GD of 0.

FTDNA’s mtDNA Haplogroup Project

My mtDNA Haplogroup and that of my matches is H5’36. The H Haplogroup is very popular in the area of Europe and the British Isles. Here are those that have joined the H5 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA:

H5’36 is listed first on the H5 Project page. That is because I believe that this group is the oldest. H5’36 is listed before H5 as it was discovered after H5, but found to be older. The oldest maternal ancestors listed above were found to be from England or Ireland.

More About Genetic Distance

In the image above, there are five people that have tested positive for H5’36. Yet they have different HVR1 and HVR2 Mutations. It would make sense to assume that those with the fewest mutations would be from an older branch and those with the most mutations from a newer branch of H5’36. The last two people listed have the same and fewest mutations:

In the next step, I have one mutation that is different from the descendants of Howe and Touhey. This mutation has been named A16129G:

Because I have zero GD with Nancy, John, Terrence and Gillian, I can add them into this group.

Next, I just have to fit in the descendants of Pearson and Privette. These two testers have mutation 309.1C in common. But I see that Pearson and Privette also A16129G. The tree is still correct, but the second box from the top should say common ancestors of all except for Howe and Touhey.

Here is what I get for the H5’36 Tree based on those that belong to the H5 FTDNA Project.

The descendant of Privette has a lot of mutations which could mean that there could be more branching going on there. The branch of the tree that I am in with the other four is defined by being positive for A16129G but negative for 309.1C.

One question I have is that from my tree, I appear to be a GD of one from the descendant of Touhey. Yet on my match list I am listed at a GD of three from this person.

The Matches Map

FTDNA also has a helpful Matches Map:

This shows me in white – or rather, my mother’s mother’s mother’s, etc. location. The most important balloon after that is the red one. That is for John’s mother’s mother’s mother’s, etc.

Here is John’s mtDNA tree added in:

From the above:

  • The female common ancestor that John, Gillian, Anthony, Nancy, Terrence and I have has a Haplogroup of H5’36 and a perfect match in the coding regions.
  • As far as I know, my four perfect mtDNA matches have ancestors in Ireland. That means that it is most likely that my maternal line also goes back to Ireland.
  • I had previously proposed that perhaps a common ancestor lived in Scotland and one group went to Ireland and another to the Sheffield area. However, the mounting evidence of matching with people who have ancestors in Ireland makes it look like Ireland could be where the common ancestor came from.
  • It appears that Gillian’s ancestor Bridget was not afraid to travel. Gillian has her ancestor born in Ireland, giving birth in India and later living in Kent, England.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The mtDNA test shows that there are five people who have a common genetic ancestor that is H5’36 with the same coding.
  • I have been getting 0 GD (that is, perfect) mtDNA matches for four years. That is an average of one match per year. I had one match in 2014, one in 2015 and two in 2018.
  • The mtDNA matches suggest that one strand of my mother’s line came from Ireland.
  • I drew an mtDNA Tree to show who is aligned with who and to who whose mtDNA has mutated more or less from the original H5’36 Haplogroup.

DNA Painting My Mom

Many people lately have been enjoying the use of Jonny Perl’s DNA Painter Tool. I have painted my chromosomes and wanted to look at my mother’s chromosomes.

Here are my results:

These are my 23 chromosomes plus my one X Chromosome. There is a bit of identified DNA on each chromosome except for number 21. The top bar represents my paternal side and the bottom represents my maternal side. The different colors represent various ancestors starting with my 2nd great grandparents. For example, the green represents my great grandparents James Hatley and Annie Snell. They had 13 children, so I have a lot of matches along that line.

Who to Map for My Mom?

For my mom I want to go to my great grandparent level or beyond. That is equivalent to my mom’s grandparents and beyond. That will in effect expand upon my maternal side matches and split them into my mom’s paternal and maternal sides.

Here is just my maternal side mapping:

That represents 22% of my maternal side. Because my mom gave me half of her DNA, I should be able to get her to a higher overall percent. Let’s see what percentage we can get Gladys up to.

Mapping Mom

As I am looking to map my mom, I will be basically looking at all the people that are 2nd cousins or further away to me. These would be her 1st cousins once removed or further away.

Here is my mom’s list at Gedmatch.

Hey, I’m at the top of my mom’s list. The green box represents people that I don’t want to map as they are too closely related (for example, niece and nephew, children).

Create a New DNA Painter Profile

At the top of the DNA Painter Page, I choose Profiles:

That shows that I have one Profile: me. I then add my mom, Gladys:

I’ll put in her name and that she is female.  Then I choose Save and Start Painting. This gives me a blank sheet. As mom is predictably female, she has two X Chromosomes:

Look at Relationships

First I want to paint one of my mom’s top matches – Anita. She is a DNA match who lives in Latvia.

From this chart, Anita is a first cousin, twice removed. Anita is higher up on the list at Gedmatch than Catherine who is a 1st cousin, once removed. This Chart also gives the common ancestors. These are my mom’s grandparents with the last names Rathfelder and Gangnus.

Paint a Match

I’ll copy my mom’s match with Anita into the DNA Painter form:

The matches scrolled off the page, but they are there. I push the save button:

In the background there is a grey hatched area of the matches. DNA Painter does not yet know if these are maternal or paternal matches for my mom. They are paternal and I need to put in Anita’s name in the first box and the shared ancestors’ names in the second box. I’ll choose father’s side in the drop-down box and go with the suggested color.

This put the matches with Anita on the top which is the default paternal side. This blue represents my mom’s two paternal grandparents. We aren’t sure which – it would be one or the other. In more general terms, this would be DNA that my mom inherited from her dad.

Anita’s X Chromosome match with my mom

The X match is more interesting in a way. On my mom’s Gedmatch match list, I choose the hyperlinked X near Anita and get this:

The thing that is interesting about this match is that I am doubly sure that this is not a Rathfelder match. I am double sure because my mom’s dad is Alexander. Anita’s great-grandfather is Leonhard. These are two males. Neither of them received an X Chromosome from their dad as a son never gets an X Chromosome from his dad. That means that this X match can only represent my mother’s father’s mother, Maria E.L Gangnus born 1856. And that is a good thing. Whenever we can go from the general to the more specific in DNA or genealogy, that brings us one step forward.

Now I want to map the Anita’s X match with my mom. Here is Maria in green:

The Fun Statistics Button

Before I added the X Chromosome, Anita contributed to 5% of my mother’s Chromosomes:

I hit the little refresh button to the right of the orange above and my mom was still at 5%. However, this is what it shows for the paternal side:

I believe that this went from 9% to 10% of my mom’s paternal side when I added the X Chromosome. I like looking at these orange numbers, to see how I am progressing.

When I added this X Chromosome match with Anita, I had to add Anita in again. That means that I now have two entries for Anita in DNA Painter. One has common ancestors Rathfelder and Gangnus and the one on the X Chromosome has just Gangnus as a common ancestor.

Carolyn: My Mom’s First Maternal Match

Here is how Carolyn is related to my mom:

This is from a partial Nicholson Tree. However, Gladys and Carolyn need to also match on William Nicholson’s wife Martha Ellis. Both these people were born in Sheffield, England. Technically Gladys and Carolyn will be matching on either Nicholson or Ellis, but we won’t know which in most cases.

First, a Note on the X Chromosome

I was just mentioning the X Chromosome above. Here is how mom and Carolyn match on the X Chromosome:

The match with Carolyn is different than the match mom had Anita. Both the ancestors before the common ancestors are female in this case. That means that the X match could be either Nicholson or Ellis.

Painting Carolyn to My Mom

In Gedmatch, the results for the X Chromosome and the other 22 Chromosomes come out separately, but I want to combine them. So I will try to add them all together.

First I pick Paint a New Match at the main screen. Then I add the X match:

Right under that, I’ll add all the places Carolyn and Gladys match:

Here’s mom’s first maternal match:

I’m guessing that Carolyn might almost double my mom’s mapped DNA which is currently at 5%:

Not quite double digits, but pretty good.

Going Down the Gedmatch Match List

Adding my mom’s 1st cousin once removed, Catherine, get’s mom up to 12% mapped DNA. Judy brings in a new pair of ancestors: Jacob Lentz and Annie Nicholson.

Re-Keying the Key

Next I want to organize the key. I’ll move the Paternal ancestors to the top.

Then I’ll add a separator line. It will be after Maria in green, so I choose her. I choose Edit and then check this box:

Differentiating between the paternal and maternal is one of the most important things to determine in genetic genealogy, so this utility is important.

Mapping More Matches

The next match with my mom hasn’t gotten back to me. I know about where she fits in, but not for sure, so I’ll leave Kathy out for now.

I forgot to check my update button. Now mom is up to 15% mapped. I expect her maternal side to have more matches as she has Philadelphia relatives on her maternal side and her paternal side was from Latvia. However at this point, Gladys has 15% paternal and 14% maternal mapped. I expect that to change.

Joan has over 100 cM of matches with my mom. She is a 2nd cousin once removed on the Nicholson/Ellis Line. That brought my mom up 1% to 16% mapped. Things had to slow down at some point.

Two Matches Representing 1700’s Ancestors

Astrid’s match with Mom goes back to a German Colony in Latvia:

Hans Jerg married a Bittenbinder. Mapping Astrid/Rathfelder/Bittennbinder adds some rose color to the paternal side of Mom’s map:

Astrid added another 1% to my mom’s mapped DNA.

Nigel: A Match on Another 1700’s Couple

Nigel’s match with my mom goes back to 1765. Astrid’s match represented 1752.

I added Nigel in lilac. Then I moved the ancestral DNA his match represents down to the maternal side of the Map’s Key. By default, the new ancestors appear at the top of the key.

My Mom’s Percent DNA Mapped Vs My Maternal Percent Mapped

I put in the easy matches for my mom and only came up with 19% mapped. However, I have 22% of my maternal side mapped. Here is what I have for my maternal side:

I think I know why my percentages are not the same thing as my mom’s percentages. My mom’s chromosome is her maternal and paternal side which is a generation back further than what I am looking at. Another way to look at it is that her 19% is 19% of two copies of her chromosomes. I am only looking at one copy of my maternal chromosomes. That means that my mother is starting out with over twice as much DNA than I am. I say more than twice as much because she has two X Chromosomes compared to my one. Put another way, I have 22% of my maternal side mapped. That is roughly equivalent to 11% of all my mom’s mapped DNA.

More Numbers

I have mapped 19% of my mom’s DNA. She passed down half of her DNA to me. Actually, this is a little less than half as I only got one X Chromosome. As I have mapped 22% of my maternal chromosomes, that means, that I should be able to get near to 22% for my mom.

More Matches for Mom

As I look at my own maternal-mapped chromosomes, I see that I have mapped some X Chromosome that I don’t have for my mom. Also I have some John Lentz DNA.

More X DNA for Mom

At the top, I said that I wasn’t going to map close relatives. However, I will make an exception with Cindy. Cindy is my mom’s niece. The reason I want to map Cindy’s match is because her father Bob is my mom’s brother.

I thought I had a better photo. My mom is the oldest child with the curly hair. Bob is the baby. Bob got only one X Chromosome from his Lentz mom. She got her DNA from her two parents who were Jacob Lentz and Annie Nicholson.

Here is Cindy’s X match with my mom at Gedmatch:

I then map Cindy’s match to my mom’s map:

This match is perhaps not too meaningful. Cindy got her paternal X from her dad Bob. Bob in turn got his only X Chromosome from his mom. She got her DNA from her two parents Jacob Lentz and Annie Nicholson. However, those segments are mapped as a placeholder to remind me that those segments represent either Lentz or Nicholson. Also the breaks in the matches may indicate changes from Nicholson to Lentz DNA or the other way around.

Mapping John Lentz and Eliza

I’m going to switch back to my DNA Painter Profile to see this match. When I do that, and choose John Lentz/Eliza from the key, I see this:

This shows on my maternal Chromosome 2, I had a 16 cM match with Radelle. I also have her Gedmatch number written down, so I can look for that match on my mom’s Gedmatch match list. My mom’s match with Radelle is about twice the match that I have with Radelle:

Next I switch the profile back to my mom and paint in the Radelle/Lentz/Eliza DNA:

Finally, I need to put John Lentz on the bottom maternal part of the Key:

Add Beth from MyHeritage

My mom matches Beth at MyHeritage. They are 2nd cousins once removed. Beth matches on my mom’s Nicholson/Ellis Line. Here is the match at MyHeritage:

This should add some new DNA to my mom’s DNA map. At MyHeritage at the Chromosome Browser, I choose Advanced Options. The only advanced option is to download the DNA match which I did. At DNA Painter, I choose Paint a New Match and add Beth’s DNA match. Beth’s match on Chromosome 12 was new as I had no DNA match for my mom there before Beth.

If I choose Nicholson/Ellis on the DNA Painter Key and then choose Beth, I get this:

This shows that Beth added no new DNA on Chromosome 5, but added some gap DNA on Chromosome 6. Her match extended a match on Chromosome 8 and added new DNA on Chromosome 12.

Fixing a Mistake

In the image above, I just happened to hover over Chromosome 5 and it shows a match with Gladys. That is wrong as Gladys is my mom. This should be Carolyn. To fix this, I choose Nicholson/Ellis in the Key. At the top, I choose Gladys and get this screen:

I then chose Edit Match. I replaced Gladys’ name with Carolyn. That fixed the problem.

Here is where I am:

That about as far as I will get as my own maternal chromosomes are also at 22%.

Here is what my mom’s DNA Painted Map looks like:

As predicted, my mom has more maternal DNA relatives compared to paternal. However, given that the paternal side is from Latvia, I am happy with the matches that she does have.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was able to paint 22% of my mom’s chromosomes based on identified existing  cousin matches. It would be nice to be at 25%.
  • I have matches on all chromosomes except for the shortest one – 22.
  • The colors could use a little work. They are a bit boring. The rose is close tot he brown and the light green does not show up well.
  • Chromosome 18 appears to be the best mapped Chromosome.
  • I was able to map the X Chromosome match my mom had with a niece because that niece is a daughter of my mom’s brother.
  • I found a mistake and was able to fix it easily in DNA Painter.

Gary’s Pennsylvania Ancestry: Part 2

In my last Blog, I brought Gary’s Taylor ancestors back to the late 1600’s in Pennsylvania and to Wales before that. Gary so far had one correction which I was easily able to fix. However, now Gary is interested in his Ormsby line,

Florence is Gary’s paternal grandmother. She was the one I called the child bride in the last Blog. Gary thinks Harry had roots in Scotland and Fannie may have been part native American.

Here is a a portion of the death record for Fannie:

This gives some information about her mother and father.

Harry and Fannie got married at a Methodist Church:

Harry was from Media and Fannie was from Springfield when they married in 1887.

Expanding Fannie Palmer’s Ancestry

I’ve started looking at Fannie Palmer, so I might as well continue down her line.

It looks like Fannie was born during the Civil War which was between 1861 and 1865.

Fannie in 1870

Fannie was the older daughter of 8 living in Ward 24 of Philadelphia in 1870. Also in the house was Johanna Palmer – possibly her grandmother. Her dad was a car driver. There was also a ‘driver express’ person living in the house – Lewis Woodward.  Here is Ward 24 to the West of the Schuykill River:

Fannie in 1880

Now Fannie is living with her grandmother in Upper Darby:

Johanna Palmer indicates that she was born in New Jersey. However, her dad was from England and her mom was from Scotland. She would have been born about 1808. It appears that Johanna woujld not be a good candidate for Native American ancestry if this census is correct.

John and Eunice Palmer

Fannie was living with her grandmother in 1880. What happened to her parents? The Media Burial Grounds records show this:

It looks like John passed away and Eunice remarried.

In 1850, Eunice was living in Thornbury, PA:

What About John Palmer?


John appeared to be F. John Palmer in the 1870 Census. Other hints at Ancestry refer to a John G. Palmer. I’ll take a look at some other Ancestry trees to see what they show. I found 10 trees with John Palmer. Nine trees showed him as John F. Palmer. Only one tree had parents:

This also showed two other Children that the other trees did not have. This raises some questions. Why was only one researcher able to find John’s parents? Most or all trees had his birth date and place of birth as Upper Darby. Johanna could be right as Fanny was living with her grandmother Johanna in 1880.

City Directories

Perhaps we can find John in the Philadelphia City Directories. Here are a few John’s in the 1860 Directory:

My first choice is John P., carriage driver, 326 Wildey. I don’t see any John F.

Here is 326 Wildey in Fishtown.

This is not near Ward 24. But the family was in Ward 24 in 1870, not 1860, so I picked the wrong directory. As an aside, my great-grandparents (no relation to Gary) lived on Earl St. I couldn’t find an 1870 Directory. Here is 1867:

Here I don’t see a John P or a carriage driver. There is a John Wheelwright, at Fkd av. which I take to be Frandford Ave. This may be the same person, assuming John is still in Philadelphia in 1867.

I can’t find John in 1861:


This is similar to the 1867 Directory. However, I didn’t notice in 1867 that there was a John Coach painter on 2132 Winter. That seems to fit in with the car driver profession also. Here is 2132 Winter Street:

This is also getting us closer to Ward 24. Fannie was born in 1862, so she would have been around by now.

John F Palmer 1873

I did find our mysterious John F in 1873:

I don’t know if W P stands for West Philadelphia or West Powelton:

Perhaps the family was also living here during the 1870 Census.

Back to 1863:

This was thrown in in case it comes in handy some time later. There was a John V., carman.


Where is John F? Is he now a foreman at 131 Dauphin, in West Kensington? Did he die? Did he move out of Philadelphia? Is seems the trail is going cold.



There doesn’t seem to be a trace of Gary’s John in 1878 in Philadelphia. The above wheelwright may be the same as the one in the 1866 Directory.

Johanna Palmer

As Johanna is the apparent mother of John, let’s look at her. This Joanna in the 1850 Census looks to be the same person:

That would make John’s father John a paper maker born in 1805 in Pennsylvania. Here Joanna is also said to be born in Pennsylvania, but that may be a mistake. The son John looks to be 9 years old here and one of six siblings. This family lived in Upper Darby in 1850.

1860 Concord Township, PA

There are marks to the right of each of these household members showing that they are all paper makers. It appears that the family moved to Concord from Upper Darby.


I mentioned above that Johanna was living with her son, daughter in law and two granddaughters in Ward 24, West Philadelphia. That means that Johanna got around a bit as she was back in Upper Darby in 1880. This means that Johanna’s husband John likely died between 1860 and 1870.

Before I leave the Palmers, here is one last reference to Johanna as Johanna Scot:

This is from an 1887 book called Genealogy of the Sharpless Family. This gives the other two children. That puts the likely death of John Palmer at 1876 or later.

Eunice Pyle Born 1839 and Family

There is a lot of information about Eunice’s parents in the book excerpt above. The family lived in Thornbury in 1870. All were born in Pennsylvania and all the parents were born in Pennsylvania:

Eunice’s grandfather was Israel Pyle:

William was from a large family.

Here is some more, from a different publication on Sharples:

They had other children. It looks like John broke away from the Quaker Faith.

That brings Gary’s paternal grandmother’s ancestors out like this:

I didn’t see any Native Americans in her ancestry. Gary does have a lot of Quaker ancestors.

Harry G Ormsby, Born 1865 and Ancestors

This is the side Gary thought would go back to Scotland. Here is Harry in 1870.

The family had a servant, which says they may have been relatively well off. Here is the previous page.

Harry’s dad was a gentleman.

George W in 1880

All is not well in 1880 as Harry’s dad has ‘affections of the spleen and liver’. George W is now shown as a lawyer. Less than three years later:

Here are some directions to the vault in case someone would like to visit:

The date of internment was 24 March 1883. Section 7. Lot 17 NW1/4. Then there is a grave number and remarks.

Here is an article from the Chester Times from Tuesday, 20 March 1883:

Harry in 1928

Fast forward 45 years:

More on George W

This is likely George registering for the Civil War:

At the time, he was living in Middletown, Delaware County.

There are only a few tree hints for George at Ancestry. None of them give his parents’ names. One gives a last name for his wife Williamette as:


More on Williamette

Williamette died as Williamette Dickeson in 1906. Harry Ormsby was the informant. Her father was listed as William. This appears to be the family in 1850 in Montgomery Township, PA:

William appears to have been a wealthy farmer. Here is a photo that someone posted to their tree of Williamette’s older sister Anna Matilda Steinmetz:

Here’s what I have so far for Florence Ormsby’s ancestors:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was not able to get back very far on the Ormsby Line.
  • So far I have found no information that George Ormsby was born in Scotland. If the 1880 Census is correct, both his parents were born in Pennsylvania.
  • Ormsby is a name associated with Scotland. There is a family legend of the first Ormsby in Scotland, where Orm was a Viking. Some of the gory battle stories are here.
  • I wasn’t able to find any indication of Native American heritage on the Palmer side. It is possible that this could come up on Gary’s DNA test if there is a significant amount of Native American DNA that Gary has inherited.
  • Gary has deep roots in Pennsylvania. As a result, many Quaker ancestors have popped up. Also an apparent German ancestor has surfaced in the Steinmetz family.



Adding Some Ancestors to DNAPainter

DNA Painter is a fun and helpful tool created by Jonny Perl. I discussed DNA Painter in a previous Blog. Since then, DNA Painter has come out with a new dividing line in the key. At the time I started using DNA Painter, I was so happy with the software, that I didn’t care about the key. However, now I have organized my key.

The Key to the Key

Here is the way I had my key:

By choosing the area to the right of the ancestral name, these names can be dragged up or down. Here is my new key:

I have sorted the names into paternal and maternal. Then within paternal and maternal, I have sorted the names in a way that makes sense to me – basically by grandparent line. In order to add the above line, I chose T Clarke:

Then I choose Edit Group:

In that screen, I have circled where there is an option to add a dividing line below the group. I have checked this option.

Mining My Blogs for More DNA to Paint

Here is what the DNA Painter shows for me right now:

I recall Blogs tha I have written where I found other ancestors.

Adding Abraham Howorth, Born 1768

Old Abraham goes back a ways. He lived in the Bacup area of Lancashire with his wife Mary. I was able to Identify his DNA thanks to a match with Anne on Chromosome 4. Now I have to remember how to add Anne’s DNA to DNA PainterFirst I find the match at Gedmatch. Here is my match with Anne:

Now to get this on to the Painter. At the top right of the software is a software that says “Paint a new match”. This sounds like a good choice:

Above, I copied Anne’s matching chromosome information into the box provided. I then click on the blue box [save match now] to get this screen:

In the top blank box I put the match’s name and Gedmatch number. In the bottom, I’ll put in Abraham Howorth and Mary. This is on my paternal side. Here is the new painted segment on Chromosome 4 in blue:

I’m not totally happy with the color as it is not too distinctive from my paternal T Clarke:

So I chose Abraham in the Key above and then chose Edit:

There I chose a different color for Abraham. I didn’t like that either, so I chose a brighter green:

This will do for now. Next, I want to move Abraham down one slot on the key:

When I choose the area to the right of the name, I get a double arrow and I can move the name down one space.  Howorth is the second surname on my paternal grandfather’s side.

Adding a Maternal Rathfelder Segment

I discuss this Rathfelder find in more detail in a set of Blogs called My German Success Story. The DNA match was with Astrid, and I was able to trace the match back to Hans Jerg Rathfelder born in 1752.

I wonder if Hans Jerg had a sense of humor as he named two of his sons Johann Georg that were born four years apart. His own name was a bit similar to these two sons. One son went by Johann and the other went by Georg.

Here is my match with Astrid:

Here is where these Astrid/Rathfelder segments show up on my maternal chromosome:

I used the same color as Howorth as it is OK to repeat colors as long as the last time I used this color on Chromosome 4, it was on the paternal side.

Next, I moved Han Jerg down on the key to where I want him:

Here is the Linden Church in Latvia where Hans Jerg and Juliana got married:

The odd thing is that it looks like it could be a New England scene with children sledding on the hill of the church. However, this is in the middle of Latvia.

Part of my impetus to paint is the header at the top of the DNA Painter. It shows how much of my chromosome is mapped. Right now it shows:

  • 33% mapped – 166 segments
  • Paternal: 46% mapped – 109 segments
  • Maternal: 20% mapped – 57 segments

This exercise hasn’t raised the overall mapping from 33%. It takes quite a bit of DNA to go up one percent.

A Maternal Lentz Add

This is a match I have with Radelle that goes back to John Lentz, born in Philadelphia in 1792. Here is my share of John Lentz:

Oops, I forgot to tell DNA Painter that this match was on my maternal side, so it put the lilac color across the maternal and paternal side. This is easily fixed.

There, that looks better.

DNA Painter puts the new ancestral couple at the top of the key, so I’ll move them down to where they belong:

There is some confusion as to who Eliza was and whether John had one or two wives, so I’ll just leave it as Eliza for now. John and Radelle got me up another percent on my maternal side:

It like a game trying to get these numbers up.

The X Chromosome and My Cousin Cindy

I am only mapping my great grandparents and further out. Right now, I only have a small segment mapped. However, there may be a way to get further back on the X Chromosome. My plan involves my first cousin Cindy. Here is how I match Cindy on the X Chromosome:

On Chromosome 1-22, we would match on either Alexander Rathfelder or Emma Lentz. However, on the X Chromosome, we only match on Emma Lentz. That is becuase Cindy’s father Bob only got and X Chromosome from his mother.

Emma in turn, got her X Chromosomes from her two parents: Jacob George Lentz and Ann Eliza Nicholson. This only works for a female cousin where I am also related to her father.

Now I will map my matches with Cindy to J.G. Lentz and A.E. Nicholson:

Perhaps this will get my percentages up. I click the refresh button for my statistics and get this:

I’m looking for more than one perent increase on my maternal side:

There. I got a 2% increase thanks to my cousin Cindy. Actually it was two percent from before I started the Blog.

Cindy is the 2nd from the left and I am on the right.

The Big Picture

Next, I add two more lines to the key:

The four divisions are paternal grandfather, paternal grandmother, maternal grandfather and maternal grandmother. A few observations:

  • I have only identified two ancestors each on my paternal and maternal grandfather sides so far.
  • The darker green Hartley/Snell DNA represents 17% of my DNA. This is half of all my identified DNA. This is due to the fact that I have a lot of relatives on the Hartley side of the family. The theoretical average amount of DNA I would get on my Hartley/Snell side would be 25%. By identififed, I mean DNA that I can put ancestral names to.
  • I don’t have any 2nd cousins tested on my paternal grandmother side (Frazer). I do have a Frazer DNA Project which partially makes up for that.
  • Two second cousins on the Rathfelder side account for 4% of my DNA.
  • DNA for Lentz/Nicholson acounts for 3% of my DNA. This includes my X Chromosome match with my 1st cousin Cindy.
  • My Nicholson/Ellis matches account for another 4% of my DNA. This is a case where a more distant ancestral couple is more accounted for than a closer ancestral couple. This number could get higher as I have run into quite a few DNA-tested descendants from this Nicholson/Ellis line.
  • That leaves 6% for the identified DNA I got from the other ancestors listed above.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Jonny Perl’s DNA Painter remains a highly respected and useful tool for DNA analysis
  • I enjoy looking a the percentage statistics
  • I can see where the mapped DNA is relatively complete and where it is lacking
  • The DNA Painter gives insight into my DNA’s origins and spurs me on to further discovery



A New YDNA SNP for a Butler

My Last Update on my wife’s Butler YDNA was here. My wife’s Butler male line is designated an I2 for his YDNA haplogroup. That is somewhat rare considering that this is an Irish Family. A more typical Irish haplogroup is R1b.

The short story is that my late father in law Richard’s YDNA has gone from I-A427 to I-S17511. A427 was easier to remember. How did Richard’s SNP change? Basically, when Richard took the BigY test, many SNPs were tested for Richard. A lot of those were unidentified SNPs. Once someone came along and matched others of Richard’s SNPs they become known.

Richard at YFull

YFull is a company in Russia that analyses SNPs. They are popular because they also date the SNPs. The downside is that not all people use this service, so the results can be incomplete. The other downside is that they use a BAM file from FTDNA and FTDNA has not been making their BAM files available lately. However, they are adapting by using FTDNA’s VCF files from the BigY.

Here is the old YTree:

The Irish flag is for Richard. There are a bunch of people that tested positive for Y4884 that I did not include. The three above that tested negative for I-Y4884.

Here is the updated tree (as of April 2018):

This SNP is still really ancient. A427 had an TMRCA of 4700 years ago. This new SNP brings us ahead 600 years to 4100 years ago. What happened was that two new tests came in. Four of the people under A427 matched, so were put into a new SNP. The person with Canadian ancestry did not match the other four, so was stuck in the older SNP. Perhaps someone else will come along that matches him and they will form a third group.

Also note that there is someone in the group with a Russian background. That is not surprising given the age of this SNP. My recollection is that this SNP in general started in the area of Germany. I’m sure in the last 4,000 years people have had a lot of time to travel from Germany to Russia or from Germany to Ireland. Then there is a kit in the above listed results marked by an ERS prefix. When I hover over this, it says, “analysis in progress”. So this kit may produce further branching. It starts with ERS23. I’m not sure what that means. ERS25 was from a 2013/2015 Sardinian Study.

My Own Drawn Version of A427

I had trouble seeing FTDNA’s SNP Tree, so I drew my own:

I had predicted a new branch for the Butlers and Whitson at the top (in yellow). Now we know what it is.

The Y4884 Branch also has a new date which is 200 years older than S17511 for some reason. One more person in the Whitson/Butler YDNA Projet has taken a BigY test, so that should result in more recent SNPs.

Family Tree DNA (FTDNA)

Here is the FTDNA version of the same tree:

They have the order reversed from YFull. They also call Y4884 (the Branch that Butler is negative for) S23612. What happens is that a group of people match a block of SNPs. As the group matches a block of SNPs, there is no way to tell which SNP is older or newer. One SNP is taken as representative – usually one  that is a good quality SNP. In this case, two different companies picked different SNPs for their own reasons. For example, here are Richard’s matches at YFull:

Richard shared 17 SNPs with the man from the Russian Line. He shared 9 SNPs with the last person. Here is what YFull shows on their YTree:

Under the heading of I-S17511, YFull shows four SNP plus six more for a total of 10. I assume that these were the 9 SNPs Richard shared with the last person in the list plus one other SNP that the company felt everyone had to match on – perhaps one of the assumed shared SNPs.

The Advantage of the Whitson/Butler DNA Group

There are two ways to test YDNA. One is you take a test and wait a long time and hope that someone that is related to you tests. However, this method does not work well. In this case, someone did test. The terminal SNP changed, but the date is still in the range of 4,000 years ago.

The second way to test is in a more methodical way. This is apparently what some of the people in the Y4884 Group did. They came up with one SNP that was as recent as 150 years ago. I assume that this was coordinated testing. The good news is that another person from the Whitson/Butler YDNA Group has taken a BigY test and is awaiting results. One other person has also planned on taking the BigY test.

One problem with the Whitson/Butler Group is that there are many different Haplogroups within the Group. Within the Butler section there should be two or three BigY results soon. However, for some of the other branches of the Whitson/Butler group, there is only one BigY or no BigY tests taken.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It was a matter of time before someone tested to get my Butler in-law’s line further down the SNP ladder.
  • As this person was random, the results were not dramatic
  • It will be interesting to see the results of one or two new coordinated BigY tests.
  • One goal of SNP testing is to get to the level of a surname only SNP or SNPs. We are far from that level right now, but on the way to getting there.

Wolf’s DNA and Our Hirschenhof Ancestors

I was notified recently of some of my new MyHeritage matches. Some of these matches have been turning out to be very interesting. I was surprised that one of the shared ancestral names was Gangnus. I never see that name in the context of unknown DNA matches. So that piqued my interest.

Wolf’s Many Shared Ancestral Names

Here was one note from MyHeritage:

With all these shared ancestors, it would make sense to look at the closest matches first. All of these names looked valid except for Luther. Wolf matches me on my mother’s side. I have a Luther on my father’s side who lived in Colonial Massachusetts. These names that Wolf has appear to be from Hirschenhof. My Rathfelder and other ancestors lived in this German colony in Latvia. Due to the isolated nature of the area, it appears that intermarrying occurred.

Wolf’s Maternal Side

Wolf has a good tree at MyHeritage. The names I recognize are on his maternal side:

These are the ancestors that I think we have in common. Also Beidermann to the left of the two blank spots. MyHeritage didn’t mention that we have Hammich in common, but the name sounds familiar to me. Also, I have had other DNA matches with Hassenfuss, so I may be related to that name either by direct descent or a collateral family. This helps confirm where those matches could come from. The places we don’t match are on Hassenfuss, and Heusel. The circles are 5 generations from Wolf, so that would be at the 4th cousin level approximately.

My Mom’s Paternal Side

My mom was born as a Rathfelder Here is her dad’s tree:

Perhaps I should have circled the surnames where we don’t match. We don’t match on Rathfelder, Mertz, Muth and Lutz. It looks like I should have circled Schmidt. The last row represents 6 generations from me, so that would be at about the 5th cousin level. By DNA, MyHeritage thinks that we are third to 5th cousin. I would guess it would be more like 5th.

As Wolf was born the same year as me, it seems like I need another generation on his mother’s side. I can create a maternal tree for Wolf, but that will take a while.

A Schwechheimer Connection

Here is part of Wolf’s 6th generation out on his mother’s side:

There are two Schwechheimers, but I am interested in the first one. Here are the details on Wolf’s tree:

Here are two Schwechheimers from my tree:

I have the first Schwechheier as Johann Markus born in Baden. He was a first generation colonist in his family in Hirschenhof. His son was Johann Gottfried. I had that Johann Markus had these sons:

The last one apparently corresponds with Wolf’s ancestor.

Next, I draw a Schwechheimer Tree:

This shows that Wolf is a 4th cousin twice removed to my mother and a 5th cousin once removed to me.

A Look at Wolf’s DNA

At MyHeritage, Wolf and I share 41 cM.

That DNA is shared over four chromosomes in five segments. I suppose some but perhaps not all of this DNA would be Schwechheimer DNA. The fact that we share several segments on the small side could mean that these are for matches that go back a way and it could mean that there is more than one line that we match on. Wolf actually shares a bit less DNA with my mother.

I did not inherit the match my mom has with Wolf on Chromosome 2. I did have a match on Chromosome 15 that my mother did not have. That could mean that the match is on my father’s side, or that it is not a real match. Or perhaps my mom should have matched there. I say it would be better to ignore Chromosome 15.

My Cousin Anita

Anita, Wolf and I form a Triangulation Group (TG). That is when three people all match each other on the same segment. This means that we have a common ancestor.

Here is a chart of DNA-tested descendants of my Latvian great-grandparents:

Rusty, Cindy, and Catherine are not at MyHeritage but have uploaded their DNA to Gedmatch for comparison. That makes Anita and Wolf 6th cousins on this Schwechheimer Tree:

Here is the small area of triangulation as shown on the MyHeritage Chromosome Browser:

The TG is from about position 56 to 60M. My match with Anita is in red and my match with Wolf is yellow above. However, I would hesitate to say that this Chromosome match is from Schwechheimer and no one else.

I mentioned above that I share 41 cM of DNA with Wolf. However, my mother shares 38 cM with Wolf and is a 4th cousin twice removed at least once. Here are some statistics:

My mother and I are both above average for our relationship with Wolf. But as I say, there is more than one line of relationship.

The Biedermann Connection

My 4th great-grandfather Hans Jerg Rathfelder married Juliana Biedenbender. Juliana’s dad was Johann Tobias Biedenbender.

My research shows that Juliana’s older sister was Wolf’s ancestor Elisabeth:

That will lead to a Biedenbinder Tree starting with Tobias:

In this tree, I am actually more distantly related to Wolf as a 6th cousin.

The Niclas Connection

I was curious about the Niclas Connection. I have an Anna Eva, daughter of Johann Jacob Niclas in my tree:

Wolf has a Johann Georg Niclas in his tree. The green leaves are hints in my tree. One of those hints for Johann Jacob is for other people’s trees. There are five trees altogether.  The first tree has Eva Maria b 1757 as a daughter. The second tree is for NIclaus and looks like the wrong guy. The third tree has Johann George and Anna Eva for children. The fourth and fifth trees have just Johann Georg as a child.

Now I need a Niclas Tree:


This is still a 6th cousin relationship for me. The configuration of the tree is the same but the pathways are different.

More Biedermann Research?

Wolf’s tree has an Elisabeth Biedermann born 1856 and married to Johann Georg Heusel.

If the dates are right in Wolf’s tree, Elisabeth had Gustav when she was 15. Here is a possible birth record for Elisabeth:

This looks like an Emma Elisabeth Bidermann born to Georg Ludwig Bidermann and Pauline Alharma? Charlotte geb
Asmus. Born in October 1854. If this is the right ancestor for Wolf, at least she would be 17 instead of 15 when she gave birth to Gustav.

Summing Up

Wolf has a great tree. However, even with a great tree, it difficult to see all the possible places that connections can be made. I was able to make three connections. It appears that there could be more. I would also like to follow up on other leads.

It helped to build out Wolf’s tree at Ancestry. That way his tree was in a format that was the same as mine and made comparisons easier. It also helped to make most recent common ancestor trees to see what relationship we were to each other on the different lines.

Even though I matched Wolf on many Hirschenhof lines, we didn’t match on my two most recent names of Rathfelder and Gangnus. At least not yet.

The Latest DNA Test Taker on the James Frazer Line: Rod

The descendants of the James Line of the Frazers of North Roscommon, Ireland will be especially happy to hear about the latest DNA test-taker, Rod. He has also ordered the BigY test which is a big deal. But more about that in a later Blog when the results come in. This Blog will look at Rod’s autosomal DNA results.

Rod’s James Frazer Heritage

This view brings Rod up to Thomas Henry Frazer with his niece, 1st cousin and 2nd cousins.

Here is the bigger picture of the James Line:

There are about 47 people in the Frazer DNA Project. There are 28 in the Archibald line that are DNA tested and uploaded to Gedmatch. There are 19 in the James Line of the DNA Project. However, I don’t use all the matches. I don’t use the children if the parent has tested. Also I can’t compare Kim’s results with everyone else as she was only able to upload her test to Genesis. Genesis is for DNA tests that are not yet fully compatible with Gedmatch. That means that there are actually 16 in the James Line that I can fully compare their DNA results. Kim is ordering another test that can be uploaded to Gedmatch, so that will be a help.

Rodney’s DNA

I will try to look at Rodney’s Frazer-only DNA as this is a Frazer Project. Here is how Rodney matches other James Line DNA Test-takers in general:

Rod matches everyone except from Penny and Gary. Rod matches Prudence but below the normal threshold of 7 cM.

Rodney and Triangulation Groups (TGs)

Next, I will look at James Line Triangulation Groups or TGs that Rodney is in. This can help shore up genealogy in the James Line.

Chromosome One

Rod’s first TG is in Chromosome one with Toni, Joanna, and Betty:


Here is what the numbers look like:

This is really two TGs, Rodney, Betty and Joanna have a TG focusing in on Thomas Henry Frazer. The addition of Toni to the TG suggests that the Thomas Henry Frazer TG is a Frazer TG and not a Palmer TG. The numbers work out well also. Rod shows a 64 cM to his first cousin Betty and smaller matches to his more distant cousins.

Chromosome 2

Here is a new TG with Rod, Betty and Clyde:

Madeline and Mary are matching on another line, so they are not in this TG.

Here is another TG with Rod, Madeline and Mary:

Rodney is doing a good job in tieing these families back to Archibald Frazer born about 1792.

Chromosome 8

Clyde, Betty and Rod.

I have already portrayed this combination above. Rod appears to be a missing link for some of these TGs. This TG brings up an interesting point. There is already a TG on the Archibald Line in this area. How is this possible? The Archibald TG has in it Emily, Bill, Paul, Gladys and Vivien. Vivien is in the Frazer Stinson Line. Emily, Bill, Paul and Gladys descend from a double Frazer couple: James and Violet. That means that the Archibald Line TG is most likely a Frazer TG. That means that the TG with Rod, Betty and Clyde likely goes back to the wife of Archibald born in 1792.  Joanna has this person as Mary Anne on her Ancestry Tree. This may give a clue as to Mary Anne’s last name.

Looking for Mary Anne

I’ll take a little side track to see if we can find any DNA evidence of Mary Anne. I ran a list of those that match Clyde and Rod and came up with this:

The TG is near the beginning of the Chromosome. The large red match is Clyde’s daughter. 7, 8, and 9 are Betty, Rod, and Jonathan. Jonathan wasn’t picked up previously as this is a 6.1 cM match – below the normal threshold. #2 is Noel. That may be a hint, but she would be outside the existing TG. A similar search for those that match both Clyde and Betty gave similar results. Still, there may be some hints in those that match Clyde and Betty or Rod on other chromosomes. Just not as focused hints as we could have had here.

Chromosome 10 – Rod, Betty and Toni

This is a simpler version of the first TG I showed. This has the same effect. Rod and Betty most certainly match on Thomas Henry Frazer, but the TG is on Archibald Frazer born 1792.

Chromosome 13

This TG is just within the Thomas Henry Frazer group, so it could be Frazer or Palmer.

Chromosome 14

Here is a different combination:

This looks to be a long-range TG out at the 5th cousin level, unless someone can think of a closer common ancestor than James Frazer.

This is another James Line TG that overlaps with an Archibald Line TG. The Archibald Line TG has Gladys, Bill and Jane. This could be under the Richard Line or the Archibald/Stinson Line, so it gets complicated. I would still think that both TGs would not be TGs with a Frazer ancestor.

Chromosome 20

Here is another Thomas Henry Frazer TG:

I won’t be recording these TGs on my spreadsheet as they may be Frazer TGs. However, it is good that there enough people from the same great-grandfather to have these TGs as they produce other TGs with ancestors more distant than Thomas Henry Frazer.

Rodney’s DNA Summary

Rodney has added a lot to the TGs of the James Line. Most of his TGs linked families to Archibald Frazer born in 1792, One of the TGs that Rodney was in seemed to go all the way back to James Frazer from the early 1700’s. Rodney was in other TGs that went back to his great grandparents. However, these seem less important right now as I believe that there is no question of that relationship. Also, I did not emphasize those TGs as they may be Frazer or Palmer TGs. The Palmer TGs may be important for further research along those lines. Finally, I discussed what it means when a James Line TG overlaps with an Archibald TG. I felt in places where they overlap, that it would be unlikely that both TGs would be from a Frazer Line.

Two Frazer Brothers: William and Edward

Joanna has this fascinating photo on her family tree. William and Edward are two Frazers that have descendants that tested for DNA. William is in the back left and Edward is in the front right. Rodney’s grandfather is William.

Here is Joanna’s caption:

Edward FitzGerald Frazer in checked suit/dress, behind is William, Eliza centre, John at back and Robert beside his mother. (Boys wore dresses as toddlers)

Joanna has Edward born 1867. My guess for the date of this photo would be around the year 1870. Perhaps Eliza had her hands full with four boys.

William’s Travels

Sometime before 1893, we see that William made his way to Spokane, Washington in the United States where he lived as a farmer.

William had married German-born Bertha Coblestine (or Koblestine) and had four children.

Here is the family in 1910:

Now William has five children. An interesting detail is that Bertha now is said to have been born in Wisconsin, but that she is German.

Here is a more grownup photo of William from Joanna’s Ancestry Tree:

William’s Petition for Naturalization from November 1909 is a good source of information.

Here is William’s signature:

William gives his birth date, place of birth, date of emigration and the ship that he was on:

William’s witnesses must have included an in-law:

Here is Drumkeerin – probable a little under 5 miles from the County Sligo border in Leitrim:

And here is Spokane. Two different worlds:

According to Joanna, William left his family. This seems to be a repeat of history as William’s father Thomas left his Irish family and moved to Owatonna, Minnesota. There he started another family which, according to Joanna, he also left.

Edward Frazer

Wililam’s younger brother Edward was born in either Drumkeeran or Manorhamilton about 10 miles to the North of where William was born.

Here is a photo of Edward, looking quite different from when he was wearing a dress as a young child:

According to Joanna, Edward’s life was quite different from his brother William. Edward graduated from the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland.

Too bad I didn’t know this when I last visited Dublin. I think that most people that visit Dublin would visit St. Stephen’s Green. Certainly researchers would stop by the National Library of Ireland which is not too far away. Here is a drawing of the College from 1830:

This is from the College website:

RCSI Roll of Licentiates

The RCSI Roll of Licentiates (RCSI/LIC) was signed by every graduate of the College once they had completed their studies, passed their exams and received their license. The student signed their full name and gave their place of residence. The variety of nationalities that attended the College in the 1800s is reflected to this day in the student body.

Here is Edward’s signature and place of residence from February 5, 1892:

At this time Edward would have been not quite 25 years old.

A year earlier, on February 21,1891, Edward was playing on the Irish National Rugby team. I’m amazed at people that are able to balance athletic achievements with medical studies.

Here is Edward in an 1895 Directory:

I wonder where Glosdromon is? It looks like Edward graduated about five years after another Edward Frazer relative.

Edward shows up in a Brighton Directory in 1899:

Here is Edward in a 1900 Medical Directory:

I get the sense of some but not all of the abbreviations.

In 1903, Edward shows up in a Brighton Phone Book.

Here, he went by Fitzgerald.

Edward has an extra medical qualification in 1903 dated 1901:

In 1905, Edward took a long trip from his home in Brighton to see his brother in Spokane, Washington. Now Edward is 38 and single. This is the part of the Ship Manifest where Edward said who he was visiting:

Now I assumed that he was going to William. He is going to see J.A.P. Frazer in Spokane. Who is this other Frazer? This is the older brother, John Archibald Peyton Frazer. According to Joanna, John wrote to Edward in 1900 about his poor health. One would assume that Doctor Edward was going out to check on his older brother John. Here is a photo of John Frazer from Joanna’s web page:

Interestingly, John had married his sister-in-law Amelia Cobensten. There are many ways to spell the last name. Here is John’s wife and his children on the 1900 Census for Spokane, Washington.

From the birthplaces of his children, we can see that the family moved from Minnesota to Washington around 1992. So this is turning into a tale of three brothers. Two were farmers and the youngest was a surgeon. Joanna also explains that it was the father Thomas Henry Frazer who got two of his sons to visit him. Joanna writes, “John and brother William arrive in America having been summoned by their father Thomas Henry Frazer.” I wonder if he wanted them to help out on his farm.

Back to Edward the Surgeon

Here is Edward in 1909:

Nine years after visiting Spokane, Edward marries Edith Seymour in London in 1914. Edward is now at 47 years old. Edward lives out his days in Brighton, having one son. He dies in 1943 at the age of 76.

Thoughts on the Frazer Brothers

I found the differences between these three brothers interesting. The obvious difference is the distance that they lived apart. In my own Frazer family, there was a similar rending of the family. Some Frazers stayed in Ireland and some came to the Boston, Massachusetts area. Another difference was in careers. Perhaps Edward’s delay of marriage gave him more time to pursue his medical studies and practice and his rugby.

I wonder how Edward could afford to go to a medical college in Dublin. It appears that he had no support from his father. Also Edward’s mother died when he was 15. Who did he live with after that? I find it interesting that Edward came to Spokane to visit his ailing brother John. Joanna mentions that William Frazer also went back to Ireland in 1891, but then came back to the US in 1893. That means that William would have been in Ireland at the time of Edward’s graduation from the College of Surgeions and at the time Edward was playing Rugby.

I had trouble finding Edward in the Census records. Perhaps he was traveling or on the move. However, Edward is well documented in directories and on cruises that he took.

As family historians, we get a chance to look at the cause and effect of the legacy that is passed down to us. In some cases we can be thankful for a positive legacy. However, we know that our ancestors were not perfect. In some ways we try to overcome negative legacies and turn things around so that our descendants will have something to be thankful for.




The John Line of the Frazers and Marilee’s DNA

This is a follow-up on a previous Blog I wrote on the John Line. At that time, I found Marilee as a Frazer match at MyHeritage. Marilee has kindly agreed to upload her DNA to Gedmatch where I can compare her results to others in the Frazer DNA Project.

The John Frazer Line

If I have my genealogy right, John was the eldest known son of Archibald Frazer. I have John born around 1755 or 1757. Some researchers have him born as late as 1775. However, that would cause a problem with John’s son who Marilee has as being born in 1779.


Marilee’s Line is on the left. She is the lone known DNA tested person in the line. I have that John had four children. One of them was Archibald who Marilee has as her second great grandfather. Archibald had another John who emigrated. This John would be a pivotal person in the research of the John Frazer Line. The previous research that I have done did not go down from John.

More on John Frazer, Immigrant

Here is what Marilee has to say:

I know my Frazer ancestor emigrated from Ireland in 1850 and settled first in Niagara Falls, Ontario Canada, and then Lockport, New York, which is in Niagara County, New York. 

As I don’t have information on this line, I created a Frazer Tree at Ancestry. Here is Marilee’s grandfather and great-grandfather in the 1870 Census living in Lockport, NY:

Here the name is listed as Fraser.

In 1860, John was a Hotel Keeper:

It looks like John managed a staff of six. It appears from the birth of the children, that the family moved to New York about 1850.

I also found this monument at Ancestry:

The 1855 New York Census shows that the family had been in Lockport for four years:

That means that they would not be in the 1850 US Census and may not be in the Canadian 1851 Census. If Marilee is right and this family emigrated to Ireland in 1850, they wouldn’t have had much time in Canada. However, If John and Sarah had John in 1849 in Canada, they could have emmigrated in 1848 or 1849. Then there is the question of where did John and Sarah marry? I did find one tree that had the couple marrying in Ireland which probably makes sense.

Marilee’s DNA

One of the hopes of DNA testing is that it might shore up our genealogical research or point us in new directions for research. Let’s look at Marilee’s DNA.

Mystery Match With Bob

One of the first things I noticed on Marilee’s match list was a match with Bob. He looked familiar. Here is the match they have:

By DNA, it would look like Bob and Marilee are 2nd cousins once removed. Bob’s great-grandmother was Jane or Jennie McPartland. I have written many blogs on the McPartlands. I’m not sure if they have included Bob. Here is a portion of Bob’s tree at Ancestry:

Here is how Bob is related to other McPartlands:

It is no mystery that Bob is a 2nd cousin to Charlene and 3rd cousin to Karen and Chris. The mystery is why he shows as a pretty close DNA match to Marilee. Perhaps Bob and Marilee are related on a non-Frazer Line? Perhaps the Ann above is a daughter of Marilee’s 2nd great-grandfather Archibald Frazer?

Marilee also matches with Karen here:

For Bob, Karen and Marilee to triangulate, Bon would have to match Karen on Chromosome 7 in th same area. He does:

The closest place that Karen and Bob match are at Owen McPartland and Ann Frazer. As far as I know, Marilee has no McPartland ancestors, so that would point to the Frazer side.

In addition Brian, who I believe is Chris’ brother matches Marilee on Chromosome 7:

Marilee and Bonnie

The next person I notice going down Marilee’s match list is Bonnie. Bonnie is in the James Line of the Frazer DNA Project.

On the Frazer Chart, Bonny and Marilee would be 6th cousins. Here is their DNA match:

This is another mystery. By DNA this connection could indicate a 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin once removed.

A More Rational DNA Approach

So far, I have checked a few random matches for Marilee. These seem to indicate that she matches a McPartland that marred a Frazer and someone on the James Line of the Frazers even though Marilee’s genealogy shows she is on the Archibald Line of the Frazers.

Here is how Marilee matches others on the Archibald Line of the Frazers:

Marilee is on the top row. She matches me and some of my siblings over 15 cM. This could be a Frazer match or possibly a McMaster match. Marilee matches Michael at over 15 cM. She also matches Jamie who has a Frazer/Johnston background.

Here is how Marilee matches Frazer descendants from the James Frazer Line:

As noted above, Marilee has a good match with Bonnie. I notice that there appears to be a Stewart on the Michael Line. Marilee mentioned the Stewart name. Marilee has a pretty good match with Beverly also but a bit more with Charlotte. I note that both Charlotte and Marilee have a Jane White in their ancestry. Apparently two different Jane Whites. Charlotte’s great-grandmother is Ismena Jane White. Marilee has her third great-grandmother as Jane White.

Marilee and Triangulation

If Marilee triangulates with two people that are in the Frazer DNA Project. That means that those three people should have a common ancestor.  Above, I showed that Marilee triangulates with at least two people in the McPartland Group. That means that they have a common ancestor. I checked to see if the two Triangulation Groups (TGs) that Marilee is in has already beenidentified by my previous research. It appears that these are new TGs.

Next, I’ll look at Marilee compared to all the Archibald Line DNA-tested descendants. As I looked through the results, I found one TG:

The TG involves Marilee, Bob, me and my two younger sisters. That means that we have a common ancestor. It would take some fancy guesswork to figure out who that common ancestor is.

I checked also on the James Line for TGs, but didn’t see any.

One Guess on the Marilee, McPartland, Frazer Connection

In a previous Blog, I had supposed that my connection to the McPartland Family could look like this:

Under this scenario, Bob would have been connected to my family – above represented by my sister Heidi. This seems a bit convoluted. However, my second great-grandmother was Margaret McMaster. Her mother was also a McMaster named Fanny. Her mom was Margaret Frazer. I had supposed that Margaret could have been the sister of the Ann Frazer that married Owen McPartland. I further supposed that this Frazer could have been born around 1780. I notice that Marilee’s second great-grandfather was Archibald Frazer born 1779 and married to Jane White.


Above is a possible scenario that could fit the DNA. The clrcles and the lines represent the TG with a possible set of common ancestors. What if my Margaret Frazer was the daughter of Marilee’s Archibald and the sister of the Ann Frazer who married Owen McPartland? That would be one way to tie the families together. That would make Marilee and Bob third cousins, once removed and me and Marilee third cousins three times removed.

Let’s see if that is even possible. Bob and Marilee shared almost 111 cM. Here is part of a chart of ranges of DNA for fourth cousins:

127 is the highest expected match for a fourth cousin. That means that Bob and Marilee would be near the top of that range. My two younger sisters and I matched Marilee at 16 or 17 cM. That is a little below average for a fourth cousin, two times removed. I would be a fourth cousin twice removed to Bob under that above scenario. My two sisters match Bob at about 8 or 9.5 cM.

Perhaps someone will come forward with a more obvious explanation.

Occupants of Derrycastle 1834

Here is the Tithe Applotment for 1834 in Derrycastle:

My guess is that Archy is Marilee’s ancestor. John could have been his brother. William could have been his other brother. George, Philip and James could have been the sons of Philip. I believe that James was my ancestor.

Here is a map of the area:


The Tithe Applotment mentions Archy of Shan which would be Shanvoley. Dereenargan is where the McPartlands lived later. There were also at least one Frazer and McMaster living in Dereenargan at the time of Griffith’s Valuation. I discussed this previously here.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Marilee had a surprising DNA match with Bob – a McPartland/Frazer descendant.
  • Given what we knew of the genealogy, the size of the DNA match did not make a lot of sense
  • Bob, Marilee, and three in my family triangulated which means that we have a common ancestor.
  • I looked at some of my past DNA analysis of the McPartland/Frazer connection and came up with a possible scenario to explain the triangulation. This explanation would have Bob, Marilee and me descending from Marilee’s 2nd great grandfather, Archibald Frazer, born 1779 who married Jane White.
  • This explanation is further supported by the proximity the families. However, the genealogical evidence appears to be lacking.
  • This theory may have other DNA evidence added to it in the future or more genealogical evidence may come to light to disprove my guess or to add weight to it.
  • If I am right in my guess, I would have found my third Frazer line which was missing and the McPartland Frazer Line which was missing.

My Father’s Cousin Maury’s DNA and Hartley Ancestors

My father’s cousin Maurey recently had a DNA test at Ancestry. Then his daughter Holly uploaded those results to Gedmatch.

A Hartley DNA Tree

Here is a tree showing those in the Hartley family that have had their DNA tested. Others have tested at AncestryDNA, but Ancestry does not provide specific information on which chromosome the matches are on.


Maury is in the line on the left. I had previously had Jim and Joyce tested. They are both children of Annie Hartley. Here is a photo of some of the Hartleys.

Maury’s mom Grace is circled in red on the right. Jim and Joyce’s mom Annie is circled in red on the left. From my generation, there are descendants of Jim circled in yellow and Mary also circled in yellow. That represents four out of thirteen Hartleys with DNA-tested descendants. I have other second cousins that have tested at AncestryDNA, but they have not uploaded their results to gedmatch for analysis.

My DNA Match with Maury

Here is what my match with Maury looks like at gedmatch:

That is more DNA than I share with Jim, but less than I share with Joyce, so about average for my three Hartley first cousins, once removed.

Here is a photo of me in the front of the boat and Maury’s nephew Tom steering in the Mattapoisett River Race. From memory I was in 8th grade. I believe that is Maury standing on the left.

Mapping Maury

My Paternal DNA Map before Maury:

This shows that 46% of my paternal side is filled in. On my maternal side which I don’t show above, I have only 20% filled in. When I choose just the green matches which represent my Hartley/Snell DNA that I share with cousins, the DNA Painter program says that “represents about 17% of the base pairs in this profile”.

Maury actually did not add much more Hartley DNA. I already have a lot of Hartley DNA matches. However, he did bring my mapped DNA up from 32% to 33%. That means, that overall, between my mom and dad’s side one-third of my DNA is mapped. That is a bit of a milestone.

Maury’s Huge Hunk of Pilling DNA

Here is a DNA tree of the Pilling Line:

A DNA tree is just people in a tree that have had their DNA tested. That means that the actual genealogical tree would be much larger. The people in green have had their DNA tested and have uploaded to Gedmatch. One exception is Jennifer who tested at 23andme which has a chromosome browser.

Maury is in the line on the left. The line on the right is from William Wilkinson. Mary Pilling married Robert Hartley. Robert Hartley died young. Then Mary married Robert Wilkinson and had another family. Richard descends from that side. That means that any Hartley descendant that matches Richard can know that they match Richard with Pilling DNA and not Hartley DNA. That is because Richard has no known Hartley DNA.

Here is how Richard matches Maury on Chromosome 19:

The orange bar is the match between Richard and Maury. The small blue match is between Richard and my brother Jonathan. The orange match is 53 cM and takes up most of Maury’s Chromosome 19. So Maury has a pretty large hunk of DNA from his 2nd great-grandmother, Mary Pilling. That DNA made its way intact through Greenwood Hartley, James Hartley, Grace Hartley and down to Maury. Mary Pilling played a big role in the history of the Pilling, Hartley and Wilkinson families. She lived in Trawden, Bacup and finally crossed the ocean as an elderly woman with the Hartley and Wilkinson families, finally dying in New Bedford.

Maury’s X Chromosome

Here is how Maury matches some of his cousins by the X Chromosome:

Here Maury matches his first cousins Joyce and Jim. Then he matches his 1st cousins once removed Beth and Pat (numbers 3 and 4).

The matches represent either James Hartley or his wife Annie Snell. Note that Maury doesn’t match me or my 4 tested siblings. That is because the X Chromosome does not travel from father to son. My grandfather had one X Chromosome but that got passed down to his daughter, not his son.

I circled the middle area of Maury’s X Chromosome matches above. It appears in that area the DNA he got on his X Chromosome switched from Hartley to Snell or the other way around. If I were to test my paternal first cousins, then they would have Snell X Chromosome and not Hartley. That is because, they descend from my grandfather’s daughter. She would have an X Chromosome that my grandfather got from his mother who was Annie Snell. Any of the Hartley relatives that matched them would then know that match was on the Snell side and not the Hartley side.

Identifying Maury’s unknown X Chromosome matches.

Here are some of Maury’s top unknown X matches. I would like to know if they are from the Hartley side or Snell side. My guess is that most of them will be from the Snell side as there would be more people matching on the Colonial Massachusetts Snell side compared to the Lancashire, England side.

When I choose these people in a Chromosome Browser, the matches look like this:

Remember I said that I thought that most of Maury’s X matches would be on his Snell side. For Maury’s group of matches in the middle, they stop at position 83M. My guess is that is where Maury’s X Chromosome goes from Snell DNA to Hartley DNA. After position 83M, Maury’s X matches disappear.

Again, this is my guess. It has not been proven by contacting each match and checking on their ancestors.

Maury and the Howorth Family

Who are the Howorths? Greenwood Hartley married Ann Emmet in Bacup, England. Ann’s mother was Esther Howorth born in 1800.


Maury is on th left. There is a family on the right that matches by DNA. They also descend from the Howorth family. They descend from Abraham, the brother of Esther and live in Australia. Here is Maury’s DNA match with Anne of Australia:

Other Hartleys have matches with this family, so all the matches likely represent Abraham Howorth, born in 1768 or his wife Mary.

Who Was James Howorth’s Wife Mary?

I don’t have a name for James’ wife Mary. That would be nice to know. Looking at Ancestry trees, I don’t get a clear answer. Here are the children I have for the couple:

Hopefully, these are all from the same family. Ancestry has hints for Mary. For Betty and Abram, it could be that a child died and a subsequent child was given their name in their memory.

The hints for Mary at show that Mary was Mary Hargreaves. However, it shows her marrying a John Haworth. So, unless John and James were the same person, that would not be right. This is likely the John and Mary couple that Ancestry gives as a hint:

There appeared to be Hargreaves also living in Trough.

I’ll look at a website called Lancashire Online Parish Clerks where I got the information from the previous screen shot. I would think that Abraham and Mary married about 1787. When I enter a search for James Howorth marrying a Mary, I get 311 results.

Here are some of the best candidates:

I would favor the Rochdale listings as Bury and Manchester were further away. That leaves Shepherd, Holt, or Eastwood as the last name for Mary. I’ll make the assumption that Mary was the mother of all the children above. The last child was born in 1815 when James was 47.  I’ll say that Mary was three years younger than James and was 44 when her last child was born. That would mean that she would have been about 18 when she married. That would put her birth about 1771.

Here is a Mary Shepherd:

Here dad was Richard and her mom was Ellin. I would have thought that she might name some children after her mom or dad if this was the right Mary.

There are too many Mary Holt’s in the records. Here is one guess:

I like this Mary because her dad and mom were John and Betty. Mary’s first two known children were Betty and John. As I understand it, Bacup was originally not much of a place and Spotland was more of the area. So this my be a good place for an ancestor to be born.

Here is a map of historic Spotland (before 1850) from

This is copied from the website as the areas of Spotland:

445 – Chadwick, 446 – Clay Lane, 447 – Catley Lane, 448 – Woodhouse Lane, 449 – Wolstenholme and Cheeseden, 450 – Brandwood Lower End, 451 – Brandwood Higher End, 452 – Whitworth Higher End, 453 – Whitworth Lower End, 454 – Healey, 455 – Failworth

Two areas that I will be looking at later in the Blog are 451 and 452 to the South and East of Bacup.

Here is a possible Eastwood choice:

Again, Mary Howorth did not name any of her children Richard or Alice that I know of.

As stated above, I am leaning toward Holt for a new Hartley ancestral name.

Back to Esther Howorth

Now I’ll look some more at Esther. Esther Howorth married Isaac Emmet. They had Ann Emmet who married Greenwood Hartley.

Where was Esther Born?

There is some confusion as to where Esther was born. Here is the online record:

I’ve looked at the original record and saw no note about Nun hill. There is a Nun Hills to the west of Bacup. There is also a Knothill. The Bacup Weslyan records have reference to a Knothill:

However, my understanding is that Spotland was a ways away South near Rochdale.I also see in the Weslyan records an interesting reference to, “Knothill Nook near Shayforth”

There is a Shawforth near Trough and Hogshead, so perhaps this is the place?

Finding Knot Hill

I think I found Knot Hill. I assume that Knothill Nook is even more specific than Knothill. I appreciate the meticulousness of whoever recorded that record. This map is from

Also in the process, I have found Trough which I had trouble finding previously. I had assumed that Trough Gate was close and it is pretty close to Trough. The trick is finding an old enough map with enough detail. For some reason I get a lot of joy in figuring out where my ancestors lived. So, I’ll say that in 1800 at least, the Howorth family was living at Knot HIll aka Nothill. One problem is that place names have changed over the years. I would have to say that being born at Knot Hill sounds more prestigious than being born at Hogshead or Trough.

So. the next time you are in Bacup, look for Knot Hill. Take the A671 from Bacup going South toward Rochdale. Knothill should be between Trough Gate and Shawforth. If I am ever in the area again, I would like to get out of the car there and walk around.

While I’m Visiting Bacup

Esther was listed as living in a different place in 1821:

She was living in “Fair wall”. The groom was living in Hey Head. That is where I had the Howorth family living in 1806 and 1809. I’m not sure if the family moved about a bit or if the location was reported differently (that is, with different levels of precision).

It looks like Fair Wall was indeed a place, but where?

The above publication was from 1888.


Here is a detailed map from 1890 to the East of Bacup:

The last two Howorth children were born in Tong and Higher Tong. Due to the proximity of the Tong Farm and Fair View, I am guessing that Fair View may be the same as Fair Way. That leaves us with Heyhead or Hey Head. Two Howorth children were born there in 1806 and 1809.

One Hey Head Or Two?

I just noticed something today:

Ann Howorth is born in Hey head, parish of Rossendale. Hannah Howorth is born in Heyhead, parish of Rochdale. All other Howorth children have been born in the parish of Rochdale (except for the last Betty which also seems to be a mistake). That leaves a few possibilities:

  1. These are different families
  2. They moved from Hey head, Rossendale Parish to Hey head, Rochdale Parish
  3. The person writing down the information for the Baptist Baptism mixed up the Hey Head in Rochdale with the one in Rochdale.

At this point I would be willing to go with what is behind door number three. I also note that Isaac Emmet was from Hey Head in the Parish of Rochdale at the time of his marriage.

I had already given up on Nun Hills in favor of Knot Hill as per above. Now I am giving up on Hey Head which is further to the West in favor of the Hey shown below.

Summarizing the Howorth Living Areas

That leaves all the Howorth family living as per below in the purple circled locations. I have managed to round them up into areas to the South and East of Bacup:

  1. From the lower right I have Trough where Betty was born in 1789.
  2. John was born 1793 in Hogshead.
  3. Sally was born in 1795 back in Trough
  4. Abram was born 1798 in Hogshead
  5. Esther gets her own named place of birth of Knot Hill in 1800.
  6. James is born in 1803 in Hogshead
  7. Ann is born in Hey head 1806
  8. Hannah is born in Heyhead 1809
  9. Abram is born in Tong in 1814
  10. Betty is born in Higher Tong in 1815
  11. Esther is living at Fair Wall (=Fair View?) at the time of her marriage in 1821. Fair Wall and Tong do not appear by name on the map, but they should be in the area of the small circle between Hey and Bacup. Again, Tong may have been the more general area and Fair Wall a specific house or row of houses.
  12. Esther’s husband Isaac Emmet lived at Hey Head prior to his wedding day. If I have their two places of residence right, they would have been living quite close to each other.
  13. If I have the right James Howarth, father of Esther, he is living in Underbank at the top circle prior to the time of his death in 1839.
  14. By 1851, Greenwood Hartley is living at Underbank and marries Esther’s daughter, Ann Emmet.

It is unclear to me whether the family moved around a lot or if the places where they lived were listed inconsistently. Hogshead is listed three times for Howorth births which is more than any other location. This is somewhat central to the other locations. This revised version of where the Howorth family lived holds together better than the version at my Howorth Web Page.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Maury got a large hunk of DNA from his second great-grandmother Mary Pilling.
  • Maury’s X Chromosome matches represent either the Hartley side or the Snell side. Maury’s unknown X matches will likely be mostly on the Snell side.
  • Maury matches Ann from Australia. This match appears to represent DNA that they both inherited from James Howorth born in 1868 or his wife Mary.
  • I tried to find more about Mary, but didn’t have much luck.
  • I did find more information on where the Howorth family lived by looking at vital records and an 1800’s map. There was a lot of confustion due to similar place names and apparent mis-reporting of parishes.