I have been looking at the Whitson/Butler YDNA Project and was interested in how the Butlers might turn out as a tree using the STR results from that project. Here is the section of the Whitson project that has Butlers:
I downloaded this to an excel spreadsheet and then took out the Butler only names and put them into a text file to use in the SAPP Program. SAPP stands for Still Another Phylogenetic Program.
For some reason, I didn’t get all the results the first time.
I tried again and got all five Butler STR results:
Adjusted Genetic Distance
The kit starting with 102 is the most distant Butler relative. That makes sense that he is further away from the last two kits who are my brother-in-law and late father-in-law.
SAPP Tree
Now STRs can be somewhat unreliable and we are comparing two 37 STR tests with three 111 STR tests. What this shows is that the INS Kit is more closely related to my brother-in-law and father-in-law and that the 319 Kit is more closely related to the 102 Kit. I believe that this makes sense, as we are thinking that the INS Kit may share a common ancestor who would be the father of known ancestor Henry Butler born about 1800 in Wexford, Ireland.
Dating
There are dates on the nodes. The Group TMRCA is 1700 AD. That compares well with the more accurate BigY tessting done on the three kits that have 111 STRs.
Here the bottom three are Butlers and their common ancestor is estimated to be 1546 CE. However, there is quite a range given for this. The testers above the Butlers are Whitsons.
The date on Node 8 is 1950 but that is because there is no difference in the first 37 STRs between the three testers. Here is part of the tree that I have based on autosomal testing:
The INS Kit descends from Richard Butler Born 1817 though I don’t have him on the tree. I believe that Adam Butler should be the brother of Henry Butler on my wife’s side of the family. That would make the INS tester 4th cousin once or twice removed to my wife’s father. That means that the actual Node 8 should be around the year 1775.
Node #7
The date for this Node is 1800. This is possible.
A New Tree
I talked to Peter who is on the list. He says there is another person not on the Whitson YDNA Project but on the Butler Project who he thinks he is more closely related to. I added this person in. He has and ancestor named Captain Butler who was dealings with South Africa. This person’s kit starts with IN129:
This person does not seem close to Peter (102) as far as genetic distance in this report. Here is the tree report:
Assuming that this is accurate, it shows that there are four branches going back to 1600. I find it interesting that adding another Kit brings the common ancestor date further back. Of course, again, this is comparing three kits with 37 STRs tested with three kits with 111 STRs tested. At this point, it appears that BigY testing from one of the two BigY untested kits in yellow row of three would be helpful.
The SAPP Program allows to enter SNPs. I added the BigY SNPs, but this did not change the results:
Based on this, it appears that the two non-BigY tested kits could have their own SNP branches. The SAPP website says:
Boxes are connected by lines of varying thickness, indicating how confident SAPP is in those connections. There are three “levels” of confidence – thick blue lines based on unambiguous STR, SNP, or Genealogy data; thinner blue lines based on less certain data (often on STR data alone), or thin grey lines where SAPP made what it thought was the best decision among several close choices without clear SNP or Genealogy support.
I am not sure why adding the SNP data gives a more certain connection in the upper left of the chart.
A Whitson Tree
Unfortunately, when I was writing thsi Blog, I lost what I was doing, so I will give the short version. Here are the Whitsons I looked at:
I left out McAllister as I did not know where he fit in. The first kit also did not fit in with the other Kits’ STRs. I then added the BigY SNP info:
This gave some branching to the Whitson Tree. Looking at the common ancestor date for each tree of 1600 AD, it was difficult to tell which came first. However, there appears to be a Butler/Whitson split around this time. The rage of the common ancestors was 50 years earlier for the Butler line for some reason. I do not know if this is significant.
A Butler/Whitson Tree
This also includes McAllister who seems to fit in.
Here are the adjusted genetic distances:
- Here I added one Butler Kit that is in the Butler YDNA Project but not in the Whitson YDNA Project which I administer. The Kit starts with IN129 and the tester has an ancestor listed as Captain Butler.
- McAllister (Kit starts with 958) fits in well. His largest Genetic Distance is 7 (a Butler and a Whitson).
- The largest genetic distance is an 8. This is between the Butler who BigY tested just upstream of my father-in-law and with Whitson/Horner.
The STR/SNP SAPP Tree itself is somewhat surprising:
- What is not surprising is that the estimated date of the common ancestor is 1600 AD.
- There are three branches. The first branch has just the kit added that has the Captain Butler ancestor. The second branch is the Whitson Branch but includes some Butlers. The third branch includes my wife’s family of just Butlers.
- The SAPP program seems to have suggested a STR signature for the two main branches. These are FTD55731 established 1750 on the Whitson side and Y128365 established 1550 AD on the Butler side.
- This tree does not take into account genealogy. I did not tell the program which testers were considered to be Butlers, Whitson or the one McAllister.
I am curious as to how the branching compares to the FTDNA branching of the BigY tests.
- When we combine these two, the group MRCA should have the SNP of BY50783. However, the image above has the date for that SNP at 1433 AD. This is certainly at the early range of the STR tree of 1400 to 1750.
- The common SNP for the lower Branch above of Butlers is Y128364 which shows above at 1546 AD and the SAPP tree has this node at 1550 AD. That is pretty consistant considering the SAPP program rounds to the nearest 50 years.
- My wife’s father was born in 1932. So he would be the common ancestor between between him and my brother-in-law.
On the Whitson side:
- Batt and Whitson have a common SNP of FTD55731. The date for this above is 1768. The SAPP Tree has a rounded date of 1750.
- The next upstream SNP is BY115420 dated above at 1718 and consistantly at the SAPP tree at 1700.
Fine Tuning for the SAPP Tree?
Here is one of the outputs:
Look at the Kit starting with 846. There is a ? for FTD55731. I think that should be a minus. As administrator, I can see clearly that that Kit is definitely negative for that SNP:
There would be a mutation at this position if this Whitson tester as positive for FTD55731. As there is clearly no mutation, then I should enter a minus on the SAPP Tree input.
This now looks better for this Whitson tester with no ambiguity. That little change made a big change to the SAPP Tree:
The Tree got longer on the Whitson side by one row and one Node was added.
Believe it or not, I see one more issue. I need to show the Kit starting with 102 as negative for the SNP my brother-in-law and father-in-law share. In addition, I should add the common SNP for the 6 BigY testers.
Here I have all the boxes filled in for the BigY testers .
The Annotated SAPP Tree
This does not look too bad, but shows heavy on the Whitson side:
- One Butler comes early on the Whitson side. However, this comes early. Could 1700 be when the Whitsons split from the Butlers? I am told that there is trouible placing the genealogy of this tester.
- That means I should show Butler/Whitson ancestor a little lower on the chart. The top box should just be the ancestor of all the testers.
- The kit that has Captain Butler as an ancestor could use further STR testing or a BigY test to better place him.
- The kit starting with IN687 probably has a common ancestor with my wife’s family around 1770. My wife’s ancestor was Henry Butler born around 1800 in Wexford, Ireland and I believe the IN687 Kit’s ancestor was James Butler a likely brother born around 1795 or so also in Wexford.
Summary and Conclusions
- It was helpful to use a STR program to try to determine if there was any affinity for Butler family groups within Family A of the Butler YDNA project under I2a2a.
- When I added an additional Kit to the mix, the common ancestor for the group went from 1700 to 1600. That tells me that, based on this analysis, the additional person could be more distantly related. In fact, that appears to be the case based on the adjusted Genetic Distance Chart above.
- Keep in mind that STRs can be fickle and can mutate up or down and can be misleading.
- STR testing as obtained in the BigY test is always to be preferred over STR testing for YDNA, but where STR testing is available, it is good to make use of tools such as SAPP.
- I took the SAPP Tree out to its logical conclusion. I first did a Whitson only tree and then a combined Whitson/Butler Tree.
- This Whitson/Butler SAPP STR/SNP Tree has a likely answer to some of the questions such as: which came first – Butler or Whitson. It aslo shows likely relationships between all the testers.
- Many of these relationships appear to go back to the 1700’s when it is difficult to find good genealogical information.
























































































































































































































































































































