Category: DNA General

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2018 Upshall Update – English Roots Discovered

 

Upshall is my wife’s mother’s mother’s side. Even more specifically, her mother’s mother’s father’s side. Upshall represents my wife Marie’s Newfoundland heritage.

The Genealogy: It’s Complicated

It’s complicated as Aunt Esther’s ancestry is from Harbour Buffet, Newfoundland. There were only so many families to marry into there. However, in some ways it is simple as we cannot right now go back too many generations:

Above is the tree for Fred Upshall. He is Marie’s great-grandfather, my mother in law’s grandfather and Marie’s 1/2 great Aunt Esther’s father. I can only go back one generation from Fred to Henry born 1841 likely in Harbour Buffet, Placentia Bay, Newfoundland. The records are not that good for Harbour Buffet.

Who Was the Father of Henry Upshall?

One guess is Peter Upshall born in December, 1800:

His mother was Sarah Upshall and he was baptized on the 21st at the Parish of Hazelbury Bryan. I suppose the story could be that Peter, not having a good future in England, set off to Newfoundland. Here is Hazelbury Bryan and its proximity to Bournemouth:

Here is something I wrote on the Upshalls years ago:

“Some of the earlier written information about Newfoundland comes from Edward Wix, an Anglican Missionary. On Thursday, March 5, 1835 in his journal, he mentions both Harbour Buffet (Beaufit) and Upshall (Upshore):

Was up before day-light, and after full service, administered the holy communion to this respectable old planter, who had for many years been desiring such an opportunity. A snow-storm prevented my proceeding to-day to Harbour Beaufit, upon Long Island, where I was very anxious to visit a family whom I had known at Petty Harbour, near St. John’s. I did not allow it, however, to prevent my walking by Red Cove and Back Cove to Famish Gut, which I reached by ten, A.M., and assembled nine adults, besides children, at the winter house of Thomas Upshore, where I held full service, and baptized two children. It was providential that a man, who lived some two miles from his summer house, in the interior, in a spot which it would have been most difficult, nay, quite impracticable, to have found, in the untracked snow, which was falling fast at the time, should have come out for some family supplies to his summer house, just as I reached the harbour. He was delighted at the encounter, and was rejoiced at the opportunity of introducing to the little settlement a minister of his church. By one, P.M., as the weather cleared up, I left this place, and took the ice upon a level lead of ponds, expecting to find my way to the adjoining settlement of Pinch Gut.

In the Anglican records we find that Sarah, daughter of Peter and Margaret Upshore was baptized on March 5, 1835 at Famish Gut, Placentia Bay. Interestingly the same day and at the same place, Joseph Shave was baptized. The following year we find that Elizabeth daughter of Peter and Margaret Upshall was baptized at Famish Gut on September 7, 1836. This Peter Upshall is likely an ancestor or related to Henry Upshall. Famish Gut is probably the current day Fair Haven.”

I suppose that one could say that this Peter named his daughter after his mother. However, that does introduce now a Thomas Upshall. The next record I have is from 1855:

Here we have a sort of census of Harbour Buffet. I no longer see a Thomas Upshall. Perhaps he went back to England or died. Perhaps Mrs. Upshall was Thomas’ wife. There are now 8 Upshalls. My assumption is that the listing is by age. If Peter was the only one having kids, then I could assume that George, Christopher, Henry, Eligh(?), Jane and Joseph were all his children. If Thomas had children also, then that confuses things. Further, if we assume that our Henry was born in 1841, then he would have only been 14 in 1855. Perhaps he was older. The records for the Upshalls give their donations to the Church in quintals of fish. I don’t know if there was a standard age at which donations would be given. Also, considering that most of the names are males, it is curious that there is a Mrs. Upshall and a Jane listed. I might assume that these were heads of households(?)

I note that one tree at Ancestry has a George and Sarah as Henry’s parents:

This tree has this further reference about George:

However, that George appeared to have a son that was living at Sturminster-Newtown in 1861:

For this reason, I would rule out this George.

That leaves the following options for the father of Henry Upshall:

  • Thomas Upshall mentioned in the Wix journal. However, I am not aware of the name Thomas being passed down in the Upshall family.
  • Peter appears to be a good choice. There was a Peter in the Harbour Buffet area in 1835 and 1836. The name Peter carries down
  • To be named later – This would be an unknown Upshall. One source even mentions that the original name of Upshall was Baker and that they changed their name. However, I am not so sure of this. Why would a person change their name and why from Baker to Upshall?

Children of Henry Upshall and Catherine Dicks

I have this list of children at my web site:

Based on DNA, I have added Jessie Kate:

This is a DNA tree of Upshalls, so it only includes DNA-tested people in it that are known to descend from Henry Upshall based on genealogy or appear to descend from Henry Upshall based on the DNA. Karen and Ruby were in the latter group. Unfortunately, Jessie’s marriage record did not give her parents’ names and the birth registrations started around 1891 after she was born. That means that I have 4 children of Henry Upshall on my web site plus Jessie.

Other Ancestry Trees

Some trees have a lot more in them than I do. Here is one that has quite a few:

 

Note that they have Henry passing away in 1891 and Walter being born in 1893, so something is wrong. Assuming I have the right Henry dieing in 1891, that must mean that there is another Henry and Kate.

Perhaps that Walter born 1893 was from the Little Harbour East Upshalls. Quite a few were there in 1921:

That also makes me question the Peter that I have being born at Flat Island in 1885.  Here is a portion of Peter L. Upshall’s death record:

So it appears that if this other Henry Upshall from Little Harbour East didn’t marry a Catherine Dicks, then I’m all set.

A Few Recent Facebook Posts

Here is one post by Martha:

more Upshall mystery: Peter Upshall born 1892/1893 in Little Harbour East (died 1968) married Alice Upshall born 1894 or 1897 in Chants Cove (died 1992) to George Upshall and Bridget Peddle. their children include Thomas, Nelson, George, Blanche, Lizzie, Joseph, Douglas, Ralph, & Gerald. does anyone know who Peter’s parents or siblings were and also who George’s parents were? Peter’s parents may have been Henry Upshall (b.1863) and Elizabeth Smith. 
Thanks.

I don’t have a good answer for Martha, but it answers my question of who the other Elizabeth was from Little Harbour East.

Here is a death record from the New Anglican Little Harbour East Cemetery:

 

Here is the post that got me going on this Blog. This one is also from Martha. I wrote a Blog on Martha here.

Have stumbled on yet another Upshall….. Elizabeth born 1837 to George Upshall and Elizabeth Dicks. Married John W Evans. at least one daughter, Fannie Belle who died in Gloucester, Massachusetts (husband Douglas McLean)

Elizabeth died in Gloucester, too, in 1908 and her parents’ names come from her MA death certificate. am guessing her father / mother would have been born about 1810-1820? her death cert also says father was born in England.

do these Upshalls tie into anyone’s research?
thanks

Gloucester rang a bell with me as my wife’s great-grandfather spent some time there:

But back to Martha. She mentioned a George Upshall. I have this reference:

This mentions a George Upshall settling in Buffett in 1856. Here is the death record that Martha mentioned:

A tree that has Elizabeth in it has a Chelsea, MA marriage record for the second marriage of Elizabeth’s daughter Fanny Tucker. Fanny was 24 in 1890 and said to be born in Fortune Bay, NL. So that would be about 1866.

Back to George Upshall. Assuming that he was born in England, there are a few choices:

Sturminster-Newton is nearer to where Peter may have been from:

Poole is near Bournemouth.

Upshall DNA

The simplest way to check for Upshall DNA is through AncestryDNA. First, I’ll check by my wife’s Aunt Elaine. That is because she has less Newfoundland DNA to confuse things with. Her main two known Newfoundland names are Upshall and Dicks. Elaine’s first two matches by DNA are Aunt Esther and Karen. I mentioned Karen above. I connected her to Henry Upshall through his likely daughter Jessie Kate.

Barbara>George>Peter

Here is Elaine’s third Upshall DNA match. Ancestry thinks Barbara and Elaine could be 4th cousins by DNA. Here is Barbara’s paternal side:

Barbara’s maternal side is also from Newfoundland: Scott and Hodder, but we’ll go with her paternal side as being the likely side where the match is.  Unfortunately, a 4th cousin means the common ancestor is at rhe third great-grandfather level. Peter is Barbara’s grandfather. That means we could be as many as three generations away from a common ancestor. This also gets to Martha’s first Facebook post. I see Martha must have also matched Barbara.

Elaine and M.B. (Administered by Martha)

Here is Martha’s pretty good guess for a common ancestor: Base-born Peter, base born in 1800:

 

That would make Elaine and M.B. third cousins. That is pretty close to where AncestryDNA has them at 4th cousins. However, Martha has uploaded M.B. to Gedmatch. At Gedmatch, M.B. shows a common ancestor with Elaine at 3.9 generations. M.B. shows a common ancestor with Elaine’s sister Joan at 4.1 generations. That averages out to 4.0 generations which would be equivalent to a third cousin. That is the same as shown above. That tells me by the DNA that Peter Upshall is a good guess for a common ancestor. That further tells me that Jane Upshall is probably the sister of Henry Upshall. If Peter is not their father, then whoever is would also be a good candidate for Joan, Elaine and M.B.’s common ancestor. If Barbara would upload her DNA to Gedmatch, it may become more apparent whether she is related on the Upshall Line or not. When I check M.B. and Elaine’s shared matches Barbara does come up, so there must be some common ancestor somewhere.

Elaine and Son of Jacob Neil Upshall, b. 17 Sep 1923, Harbour Buffett

Martha posted on Jacob already, so I’m one step behind her. Here is my guess from the 1935 Harbour Buffet Census:

Next to this family:

This couple looks old enough to be the parents of Edward. I am reminded that Aunt Esther’s father was Frederick Nelson Upshall. Frederick was born perhaps 8 years after this Nelson.

Here is the 1921 Tickles Census:

Nelson is in this Census also but appears not to be living very close by. Here there is an elder Thomas born 1851 and a Peter Upshall born 1854. I guess it would take a while to sort out all these Upshalls.

Here Edward is marrying Martha Temple.

 

John is the witness (his brother?). A guess could be that Peter was the father of John and Edward. This marriage took place after the marriage of Peter and Alice Upshall mentioned earlier in the Blog.

Elaine’s Match with Pat

Pat is Elaine’s Last 4th Cousin by DNA match. Here is where it is helpful to look at Elaine and not Esther as Esther has Shave ancestry. Here is Pat’s paternal side tree:

Pat’s great-grandmother was Margaret Upshall (Sep 1857-15Jul 1924). This time I’m going to cheat a little and sneak a peak at Martha’s tree. Martha has Margaret as daughter of George and she has George as daughter of Peter the base-born.

I’m going to stick Martha’s tree for Pat onto my DNA tree like this:

This is quite small, but I have a Peter up there also. I wonder if this is the same Peter that was in the 1921 Census, born 1854. That would be interesting. That would mean that Margaret wife of the base-born would be 44 when the younger Peter was born. Under this scenario, Elaine would be third cousin once removed to Pat on the lower left. Another possibility is that there is another Upshall between the two Peters.

 

I just moved Peter, Jr. to the right side in case the Peter of the 1921 Census was the son of the Peter at the top. I also color-coded the people that had their DNA tested:

  • Green – people are uploaded to Gedmatch
  • Pat – in AncestryDNA
  • Wallace – at MyHeritage

Elaine’s Distant Cousin Matches at AncestryDNA

Allen from Bethia Upshall

Here are some of the names in Allen’s Ancestry Tree:

The names and places look like they could work. Here is some more from Allen’s tree:

I note that Martha has Sarah, the mother of Peter Upshall, having a father named John. Martha has Sarah born in 1774 in Hazelbury Bryan. That could mean that Allen’s John Upshall III could be the same as the one that Martha has. Here is a possible scenario:


That would make Elaine and Allen 5th cousins, twice removed. From what I can tell of Allen’s tree, Allen probably lives in England.

Elaine’s AncestryDNA Match with Barry from New Zealand

Here is part of Barry’s tree:

I even note that Barry’s tree appears to have the Sarah that Martha and I had that gave birth to the Peter that we believe is an early Newfoundland Upshall.

The John in Barry’s tree sounds familiar, so let’s add him to the tree I made:

It looks like my theory is working out – also Martha’s. This makes Barry and Elaine 5th cousins. Esther also shows as a DNA match with Allen and Barry, but she shows a closer match with Barry which would make sense.

Charles from Peter and Sarah

Now we are back to Newfoundland with Charles. Charles is Elaine’s last DNA match when I search for the Upshall name. I notice some Newfoundland names like Burton, Kirby and Pike. Charles has his line coming down from Peter b. 1800.

One interesting thing about this tree is that it takes the Dicks family out of the equation. Henry Upshall married Catherine Dicks. The Dicks family is large in Newfoundland from what I can tell. So the Dicks family could cause some interference as far as interpretation of the DNA.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It looks like I have found out where in England the Newfoundland Upshalls came from – at least my wife’s branch.
  • The Upshalls appear to have come from a Sarah Upshall from the Parish of Hazelbury Bryan, Dorset, England
  • Sarah in turn was the daughter of a John Upshall III, who would have been the son and grandson of a John Upshall if Allen’s tree is right.
  • This discovery used the AncestryDNA matches and good trees that those matches had. The combination of those two resources work well together.
  • This discovery is quite a breakthrough. Given the lack of records in Newfoundland, I am not sure that this breakthrough would have been possible had it not been through the use of DNA matching.

 

 

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More Thoughts on Ron, Steve and McMaster/Clarke Genealogy and DNA

My last Blog on the McMaster/Clarke family was my 200th Blog on genetic genealogy. I was surprised that it was the first on Clarke DNA. The Blog focused on my McMaster and Clarke family and also on Ron and Steve. Ron and Steve both have McMaster and Clarke ancestors as do I. Neither the McMaster nor Clarke connection to me is cut and dry. However, there are big DNA matches between me, Ron and Steve. Usually, when I do these comparisons, I do them in Gedmatch.com as they make it easy to do comparisons and they have good DNA comparison tools. However, in this case, Ron tested at Ancestry and also has his results at MyHeritage. Steve tested at 23andme. He would be willing to post his results at gedmatch.com or MyHeritage, but those sites are not ready to take the new 23andme DNA results.

McMaster/McMasters/MacMaster: Scottish or Irish?

First, here is the tree which shows how I think that Steve, Ron and I are related on the McMaster side.

Ron and Steve both had traditions that their ancestors were Scottish and not Irish. I am quite sure that they were Scottish, but that between their time in Scotland and the US, they lived in Ireland for quite a while. This is based on the fact that I have traced the McMasters back to Kilmactranny Parish in County Sligo to the early 1700’s. Here are some other pieces of evidence that indicate that Steve and Ron’s McMaster ancestry is more directly from Ireland:

  1. Steve and Ron’s ancestor Edward’s Naturalization Papers state that he was from Count Sligo:

2. Edward’s marriage states that he and his wife were from Ireland:

3. Edward’s son Frederick William’s birth record shows that both his parents were from Ireland.

4. Edward’s son Stanley Edward’s 1881 birth record shows that both his parents were from Ireland. By the way he shared a birthday with me. At that time Stanley’s mom was listed as Sadie.

5. Edward’s daughter Alice Jane’s 1885 birth record shows that both his parents were from Ireland.

6. Edward’s son Thomas Leroy’s birth record shows that both his parents were from Ireland.

7.  Edward’s daughter Edna Clark’s birth record shows that both his parents were from Ireland.

8. The 1880 Census shows that Edward McMaster and his wife were born in Ireland as well as both of their parents.

The 1900 Census is the first one that mentions that Edward was born in Scotland and Celia in England.

9. The 1889 death record for Edward’s son Frederick W McMaster has both his parents born in Ireland.

This seems to show that most the records indicate that Edward and Celia were born in Ireland as were both their parents.

The Clarke Side

In my previous Blog, I favored this tree to match up my tree with Steve and Ron’s:

This has me as a third cousin with Ron. That is consistent with our DNA matches. However, I don’t have a good paper trail. Celia does list her mother as Jane on her wedding record. However, she gives her father as James rather than Thomas Clarke.

Interestingly, one tree at ancestry does have a Celia as the daughter of Thomas Clarke and Jane Spratt:

I recognize the owner of the tree as someone I have corresponded with in the past and who knows quite a bit about the Clarke family.  However, Margaret my great-grandmother is missing as well as Jane. Also the owner has no references for Celia.

However, I did check my records. I have the memoir of the daughter of William and Catherine pictured above. She does mention Celia here:

In another part of the memoir, she mentions the children but in a different order:

Unfortunately, she gives no further detail on Celia other that she knew them all. I take that to mean that Celia lived in the Boston area. I favor the first listing above of the children as it has Celia first who was apparently born around 1856. This gives me more confidence that it was this Celia that married Edward Mcmaster.

Back to the DNA

It is possible to triangulate DNA. This happens when three people match each other on the same segment. When that happens, there is almost always a shared ancestor. The problem is figuring out who that ancestor is.

I match both Stephen and Ron on Chromosome 4:

These are both from my match list. In order for this to be triangulation, Ron would also have to match Steve. I assume that this is the case, but cannot prove it. Assuming that this is triangulation, this may indicate a Clarke ancestor.  I say this due to the large match with Ron indicating a closer relationship and the fact that my McMaster relatives that aren’t related to the Clarkes do not match here.

Steven and Ron both match me on Chromosome 6, but the matches don’t overlap. So I can’t show triangulation there.

I match both Stephen and Ron on Chromosome 18:

Again, it is not a large overlap, but there is an overlap showing that we have a common ancestor out there somewhere.

Does the Triangulation Indicate a McMaster Or Clarke Ancestor?

That is what I would like to know. If my cousin Paul triangulated with Steve and Ron, it would indicate a McMaster ancestor as Paul has no Clarke ancestor. Unfortunately, Steve tested at 23andme and Paul did not.

How I Match Ron and Paul at MyHeritage

When I put Ron and Paul into my matching chromosome browser, it shows that I do not match Ron and Paul in the same place. That means that we do not triangulate. That also means that it is possible that I am matching Paul on the McMaster side and Ron on the Clarke side. Unfortunately, something cannot be proved by not matching, but it could give a clue.

I match Ron on red and Paul on yellow. As I mentioned, I have no overlapping segments with Ron and Paul. Of special interest is Chromosome 7. My match switches over from yellow. Here is an enlargement of that segment and what it may mean:

Again, these are my matches. I am matching Paul in yellow. This could be Frazer as Ron doesn’t have Frazer DNA from what I can tell. My Paul [Frazer?] match stops and my Ron [Clarke?] match starts. This is a possible Frazer/Clarke recombination point that my father had and he passed down to me. Another possibility would be a Frazer/McMaster recombination point, but that doesn’t make as much sense as that should have been passed down to both Paul and me(?)

Here is how Paul likelly matches on the McMaster Tree:

Does Paul Match Ron or Stephen by DNA?

It looks like they don’t match by DNA. At MyHeritage, Ron is one of my closest matches:

However, Ron doesn’t match Paul at all at MyHeritage. Note that Ron should be more closely related to Paul than to me on the McMaster tree.

This is how Stephen matches me and my siblings at Genesis. Steve uploaded his 23andme results to that Gedmatch subsidiary:

Steve doesn’t match Paul at Genesis either. What are the chances? Here they are:

As 4th cousins, Paul and Ron should match better than half the time. As 4th cousins once removed, Paul and Steve should match only better than, say, 30%

Notice in the image above that my sister Sharon does not match Steve. However, Sharon does match Ron at MyHeritage here:

Note that these are all chromosomes where she wasn’t matching Steve above. That is why Sharon and Steve didn’t match by DNA.

I note also that Steve and Paul do not match at Genesis.

The other piece of the puzzle I am missing is where Steve and Ron match each other.

What Does All This Mean?

It means that the DNA suggests that the match may be through a closer Clarke line rather than a more distant McMaster connection. From what I can tell, there were two or three sisters that married McMasters or McMaster relatives.

  • Ron and Steve’s ancestor, Edward McMaster, married Celia Clark in 1876. Celia was born about 1856. In 1880 Celia Clarke McMaster was living in the same building as Celia Clarke McGarry, a known relation of mine – possibly her Aunt.
  • William McMaster married Catherine McMaster in 1882. This William signed Edward McMaster’s naturalization papers as a witness. Catherine Clarke was born 1863
  • My great-grandfather James Archibald Frazer married Margaret Clarke in 1892. His mother was a McMaster. Margaret was the sister of Catherine Clarke. William McMaster was the uncle of James Archibald Frazer. Margaret was born 1866.

Here is a photo of my great-grandfather James Frazer with William McMaster’s wife Catherine Clarke. This was apparently after the death of James’ wife Margaret Clarke and Catherine’s husband William McMaster.

It would appear that Celia, Catherine and Margaret were sisters. If this is the case then I would be third cousin to Ron and third cousin once removed to Steve on the Clarke Line. The best way to identify by DNA whether the match is on the Clarke Line or McMaster line is to find someone with only Clarke or McMaster DNA. Ron, Steve, and I have both. Paul has McMaster DNA but not Clarke. If Paul had matched Ron and/or Steve by DNA, then that would indicate the match was on the McMaster Line. However, I know of no one that has only Clarke and not McMaster DNA due to all the double-related marriages mentioned above.

If Celia’s marriage record had her dad as Thomas and not James, I would be more convinced that she was a sister to the other two Clarkes mentioned above. If Celia’s marriage record gave her mother’s maiden name (Spratt), that would have convinced me also. Steve should be taking a trip to the Department of Public Health to check for Celia’s death record. Perhaps this will straighten things out.

Running is Good for DNA Analysis

I came up with this idea on my run today. My idea is to compare Emily to my family and Ron at MyHeritage. I recently found another relative that I matched there. Actually two: Melanie and her mom Emily. Emily, like Paul, has McMaster DNA, but no known Clarke DNA.

Now the McMaster DNA tree is getting wider which is good for DNA comparisons. I did quite a few comparisons until I found this one:

This is how my sister Lori matches Paul. in red, Ron in brown and Emily in yellow. The interesting match is here:

This segment where Lori matches Ron and Emily appears to form a Triangulation Group (TG). TGs are good as they show that those in the Group have a common ancestor. Lori matches Ron from about 41-51M on the Chromosome. Above, Lori matched Steve at the same spot:

My guess is that Steve and Ron match each other at this spot also. That would form a triangulation group with Emily, Lori, Steve and Ron. As Emily is not known to be related on the Clarke side, we have identified McMaster DNA on Chromosome 13:

This shows how the DNA would have come down from Abraham and Margery to their sons Robert and James in the early 1800’s. How do you like that? I just found out about Emily last week and already she is helping out on the McMaster Line. This also points to the importance of DNA testing. Lori was the 5th sibling I had tested for DNA. You might have thought that 4 siblings were enough, but they weren’t.

Where Does This Leave Celia?

I think that there is still room for Celia to fit in with the large DNA matches that we have between my family, Steve, and Ron.  We match each other at a minimum on Chromosomes 4, 6, 10. 11. 13, 14, 15, 16 and 18. Today we have figured out Chromosome 13.

Another DNA Trick: Commom Matches

There is a utility at Gedmatch and Genesis that looks at your common matches. It is a sort of where there’s smoke there’s fire type of approach. When I plug myself and John in i get some matches. Here is someone with the Clark name that probably triangulates with Steve and me:

I’ve sent out an email to see if there is any known relation.

Here is someone with the Crawford name on Chromosome 18 that likely triangulates:

However, this is a smaller match. The common ancestor may be quite far back in time. I associate the Crawford name with the part of Ireland my ancestors were from. I sent an email to the Crawford match just in case.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I’ve done quite a bit with the DNA considering the fact that Steve and Ron tested at different places.
  • A new match with cousin Emily came in handy in identifying one segment of McMaster DNA on Chromosome 13
  • The fact that I have 5 siblings in my family DNA tested was helpful
  • Lack of other matches with known McMaster ancestry point to a likely Clarke match but don’t prove it
  • I’ve shown that the McMasters were from Sligo Ireland rather than directly from Scotland.
  • Working on this Blog got me digging more into the Clarke genealogy and I did find I had a little more on Celia daughter of Thomas Clarke and Jane Spratt. This makes me much more confident that this Celia married Edward McMaster
  • Based on that, I feel as though most of the matches between my family and Rona and Steve are on the Clarke side. That is despite the fact that I have positively identified a McMaster segment that we share.
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More on Emily and Melanie’s Frazer DNA

In my last Frazer DNA Blog, I wrote about Melanie and Emily’s DNA match at MyHeritage. I was really hoping that Melanie would upload their DNA to gedmatch for a proper comparison and she did. I hope that I wasn’t too annoying in my asking.

A Frazer Photo Identified

How often is it that you have a photo that is over 100 years old and someone is able to identify it? That is what Emily was able to do with this photo:

I had always assumed that these were all Frazers in front of their house in Ballindoon. Here is Emily’s comment:

 The photograph of the group outside Ballindoon is obviously my grandmothers wedding. I have never seen it before and love it. I never saw a photo of my grandfather James Fairbanks. He died when my mother Susan was three years old.

That’s great collaboration. Emily’s grandmother was Violet Frances Frazer in the white. Her husband is between my 2nd great grandmother Margaret McMaster Frazer and Violet. This is a good example of collaboration. Even though it is sad that James Faribanks died young, I am glad to know who he is in the photo. And Emily is very glad. I can only guess that this photo was mailed to my great-grandfather James Archibald Frazer who was Violet’s older brother in the US. Now, over 100 years later, the photo has gone back from the US to Ireland over the internet to be identified by Violet’s granddaughter.

Frazer Trees and DNA

In my last Blog on Emily and Melanie, I showed this tree of DNA-tested descendants of the older couple in the photo above. The addition of this branch is a big help in the Frazer DNA Project.

That group in turn are part of a James Frazer/Violet Frazer tree which is part of a Philip Frazer tree:

Philip is part of the Archibald Branch of the Frazer Tree. He is one of two brothers (the other being James) that we first have a record of in Aghrafinigan, North County Roscommon in 1749.

The above represents the Archibald line on the left in color and the James Line on the right uncolored. The Archibald side is a bit out of date and is difficult to portray as some DNA testers descend from more than one line due to Frazer cousin marriages. For example, the single blue line on the left above is meant to represent the Philip Line. This also has other branches. However, the yellow group in the Philip Line are also in two other Frazer Lines. This makes for interesting genealogy and more interesting DNA results.

Emily and Melanie’s DNA at Gedmatch

Emily, as Melanie’s mom, gave half of her DNA in general to Melanie. That means that Emily has about twice as much Frazer DNA compared to her daughter. For that reason, I will be looking at Emily’s results rather than Melanie’s.

Before, I start with the DNA, I need to mention that Emily and Melanie are part of the Richard Frazer Line also:

That is because Violet, the daughter of Richard Frazer at the top of the chart married James Frazer who I believe to be a son of Philip Frazer. That would mean that they would be first cousins. David on the left of the chart was added due to DNA matches. Jane was also. Assuming that David is placed correctly, he is important to this line being the only one that is not also known to be in another Frazer Line. In the Philip Line above, Richard is the one not in another line.

Emily and the All Archibald Line Comparison

I like to compare people to all others in a project and then see how the DNA sorts out. I’ll do that first with the Archibald Line of Frazers as there are too many in the whole project.

The Archibald Frazer Autosomal Matrix

I like this matrix, because it is fairly easy to interpret. The higher the number, the closer the relationship.

I have highlighted Emily in blue. Looking across from Emily, her highest match is with Paul. Paul and Emily are 2nd cousins. That means that they share the same great-grandparents: George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Here are some autosomal statistics from the ISOGG Web Page:

An average amount of DNA that two 2nd cousins might share would be 233 cM. Paul and Emily share 289 cM which is well within reported ranges. My siblings and I match Emily as 2nd cousins once removed. All of our matches are below the average of 123. They range from a low of 47 to a high of 107. By the way, the autosomal matrix uses a smaller cutoff for DNA matches so these matches will be a bit higher than if you do a one to one match at Gedmatch.

Emily matches Gladys at 127 cM. This is quite high considering the two are third cousins. After that, Emily matches Doreen, 3rd cousin once removed at 73 cM. The average, above is 48. (When I run a ‘one to one’ match between the two, the result is a bit smaller at 68 cM.) Overall, Emily’s autosomal matrix results are not surprising. She matches Richard who I believe is a litmus test for the Philip Line. They would be 4th cousins once removed. Emily does not match David, believed to be a litmus test for the Richard Line.

In the Stinson Line, Emily matched her 5th cousin Cathy at 24 cM and her 5th cousin, once removed Ros from Australia at 17 cM.

Triangulating Emily’s DNA

Triangulating means finding three people that match each other on the same segment of DNA. When this happens there is almost always a common ancestor involved. I already have a list of Frazer Triangulation Groups or TGs. Emily will be in some that have already been found and may form a new TG or TGs.

The first TG that Emily is in, is in Chromosome 1. This is a popular TG:

Note that Michael and Jane are in this TG (TG01C). Michael and Jane do not descend from Philip, so this must be a Richard TG. This further means that the DNA that Heidi, Jon, Lori, Emily, Paul, Gladys, and Bill share came down to them through Violet Frazer and not her cousin James as Violet was Richard’s son.

That is one huge TG. Another possibility for this TG would be through the Frazer/Stinson Line. However, Heidi, Jon, Lori, Emily and Paul do not descend from that line, so that possibility is unlikely.

A New TG On Chromosome 2

I’m still modifying my TG Summary Chart:

This TG02B includes Emily, Paul and Gladys. They all descend from James and Violet Frazer.

Note that these three are third cousins to each other. This means that because Gladys is in this TG, the DNA that Emily and Paul Share in this TG is not McMaster DNA (from Margaret McMaster) but Frazer DNA. Also, the TGs that are just in yellow descend from James and Violet Frazer as shown. However, as there are no matches with those in the Richard line where Violet comes from, there is more of a chance that these would be James Frazer TGs.

New TG – Chromosome 6

This TG06A is squeezed in at the beginning of Chromosome 6 before the existing TG. These TGs can be difficult to interpret. Note that Doreen is in both TGs. If Jane is in a TG, that represents the Richard Line or Violet Frazer. If she is not in the TG it implies that the TG could represent the Philip Line or James Frazer.

TG Chromosome 8

Emily seems to be joining an existing TG.

This looks to be a sliding TG. That means, that it could be a longer TG, but not all the people in the TG are in all parts of it. Emily’s TG is actually a little further along on this Chromosome and only with Emily, Paul and Vivien. Either that or Gladys and Bill are still in it, but matching at lower cMs. I know, confusing.

Unless there is a connection on other than a Frazer Line, then this TG goes back to about 1743 when we believe Archibald was born. Gladys should be on this tree also in the yellow section, but I haven’t built it out all the way yet.

Chromosome 9 – An Old and a New TG

I had TG09B in green and changed it to yellow. I added a TG09C which has the same people except for Doreen and Bill. These yellow TGs seem to come from James or Violet Frazer based on the genealogy of the people in the TGs.

Chromosome 18

Emily joins an existing TG:

A lot of people seem to have made room on this Chromosome for James or Violet Frazer. Here is a map of Chromosome 18 with 4 of my 5 mapped siblings:

Heidi (H), Joel (J) and Sharon (S) are in the TG from 35-52. Those are the positions on the map above where Sharon, Heidi and I got Frazer DNA. My brother Jonathan (F) got Hartley DNA on his paternal side in that segment. That is why he isn’t in the TG. The same is true for Lori.

A similar positioning of DNA would explain why others from the group are in or not in this TG and other TGs.

The Mystery of My Chromosome 20 Further Revealed

In my previous Blog on Emily and Melanie, I noted that they helped reveal a mystery I have had with my Chromosome 20 ever since I have been looking at my DNA. Emily and Melanie matched on Chromosome 20 where I have hundreds of other unidentified matches. Emily and Melanie were the first good matches I was able to link to a related Frazer. Now, it appears I also have a TG there.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to find TGs:

In this TG, I see Emily in blue, then Jonathan, Lori, Heidi and Joel are me and my siblings. Then there is John. John recently contacted me and I wrote a Blog about him here. I had lost John in my TG spreadsheet when Excel crashed. Now he is back in.

Here is John over in the Frazer/Stinson Line.

Mystery solved. Apparently. These results are a bit controversial. Some believe in areas where you have too many matches, it is not possible to determine a common ancestor. Others believe that it is possible. I have found at least three out of the hundreds that have a common ancestor.

Here is some more mapping of my Chromosome 20:

The green segments show large areas available for Frazer matches.

Emily and the James Line DNA

I know the Blog is a bit long, but one last topic. How does Emily match the more distantly related James Line?

Emily matches CJ (Charlotte) and Jonathan from the James Line on Chromosome 5:

This is interesting, because it looks like a TG, but it isn’t. CJ would have to match Jonathan for this to be a TG and they don’t match each other. This could mean one of two things:

  • One or both of the matches is a false match or
  • Emily may match one person on her maternal side and one on her paternal side. It happens. This is a big reason why TGs are used.

Emily matches Beverly on Chromosome 19:

Summary and Conclusions

  • There was one thing that I did not find. I hoped to find some triangulation with Richard, my family, Emily and Paul. That would have indicated a common Philip line ancestor. The matches between Richard, Paul, my family and Emily seemed pretty well spread out which made triangulation not possible.
  • One of my favorite photos from Ballindoon has been identified making it much more meaningful.
  • Emily added a third DNA branch to the George Frazer/Margaret McMaster Line. This branch has been pretty lonely for the last 4-1/2 years.
  • Emily’s matches with others in the Archibald Line of the Frazer Project did add evidence to past work on the Frazer DNA Project. For example, her matches with the Philip and Richard Frazer branches confirm the people that are in those branches.
  • Emily’s triangulation with my family and John, who recently joined the Frazer DNA group,  verified a common ancestor on Chromosome 20. That is an area in my family where we have hundreds of matches.
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Aunt Esther’s Top DNA Match at MyHeritage: Wallace

Lately, I have been uploading DNA kits that I manage to MyHeritage. One of those kits was for my wife’s great Aunt Esther. Esther’s parents were both from Harbour Buffett, Newfoundland. I was surprised to see that her match, Wallace, had a grandparent with the Upshall surname.

Here is one of my favorites photos of Harbour Buffett. It looks quite tranquil.

A Little Upshall Genealogy

As genetic genealogy looks at how the DNA and the genealogy match up, I tend to draw simple trees with just the descendants in them that have tested their DNA. This is what I have before adding Wallace:

This tree is based on genealogy, conjecture and DNA. Karen and Ruby were added based on the DNA. Based on their DNA testing, we supposed that Frederick Nelson had a younger daughter named Jessie Kate. This still needs to be proved by genealogy. Also the Peter at the top has not been proven.

Here is Wallace’s paternal tree at MyHeritage:

Wallace’s paternal grandmother is listed as Elizabeth Upshall. That name sounded familiar. I had researched her before. Wallace had the marriage date and place for Elizabeth. The Cambridge, MA marriage record showed that Elizabeth’s parents were Henry and Kate. The marriage record’s stated birthplace for Elizabeth was a bit inaccurate –  St. John’s, Newfoundland. But close enough.

Here is how Wallace fits in on the Henry Upshall Line:

 

Wallace is Esther’s 1st cousin once removed. I also added Catherine Dicks to the top. She is important as I run a Dicks DNA Project. There are many Dicks descendants around that have had their DNA tested. About half of the DNA that Wallace and Esther share is Upshall and about half is Dicks. In addition, I have tied in the Crann family to the Dicks family by DNA. By comparing Wallace to other DNA testers, I should be able to further confirm this relationship. For example, at MyHeritage, Richard shows as a common DNA match between Wallace and Esther. I wrote a Blog about Richard’s connection to the Crann family here.

Looking at Wallace’s DNA

Here is how Wallace matches Esther looking at the MyHeritage Chromosome Browser:

In general, the larger matches indicate more recent ancestors. The smaller matches indicate more ancient ancestors. However, there are exceptions to that rule.

Wallace and DNA Triangulation

MyHeritage has a new feature that shows when people triangulate. Triangulation happens when three or more people match each other on same part of their DNA. I can check for triangulation for Esther, her two half nieces Joan and Elaine and Wallace as they are all at MyHeritage. When triangulation occurs, it is a strong indication of a common ancestor.

This is how Esther matches Joan in Red, Elaine in Orange and Wallace in Yellow:

The boxed areas at Chromosome 1 and 13 are the areas of triangulation. This feature works better when comparing only three people as there is more of a chance of triangulating.

Here is how Esther triangulates with Joan and Wallace:

This added triangulation Groups (TGs) on Chromosomes 3 and 9. Also the TG on Chromosome 13 is larger.

When I take out Joan and add Elaine, I get these TGs:

These TGs are more helpful for people when they are unsure if they have a certain ancestor. In this case, we already know that the common ancestors are Henry Upshall and Catherine Dicks. However, if Wallace uploads his DNA results to gedmatch.com, we will be able to test others there to see if they triangulate. This will be helpful both for those with Upshall ancestry and with Dicks ancestry (and perhaps other ancestries).

Summary and Conclusions

  • I’ve gone over some of the basic matches between Wallace, Esther and Esther’s two half nieces Joan and Elaine.
  • The DNA agrees with the paper trail that shows that Wallace and Esther both descend from Henry Upshall and Catherine Dicks of Harbour Buffet, Newfoundland
  • There may be more analysis that is possible at MyHeritage, but the best DNA analysis can be done if Wallace uploads his results to gedmatch.com. There, he would find matches with many Upshall and Dicks descendants – as well as many others.

 

 

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Emily and Melanie’s Frazer DNA from Ballindoon

Emily and Melanie are important matches for me at MyHeritage. From their family tree there, they show that they descend from George William Frazer and Margaret McMaster – the same as I do. Several years ago, I tested the DNA of my 2nd cousin once removed Paul who also descends from the same couple. I have also tested my siblings. Now we have another branch from George and Margaret. From what I can tell, Emily and Melanie are here:

They descend from Violet Frances Frazer born 1872 in Ballindoon. Violet Frances is an interesting name. This name could be from her two grandparents. Her dad’s mom was Violet Frazer (yes, a cousin to her dad’s dad from what I can tell). Violet’s mother’s mom was Fanny or Frances McMaster – also a cousin to her mom’s dad. Yikes.

It looks like Melanie has this photo which I got from a visit to Ballindoon:

Here is what I have from my web page.

    •     25.  i.   JAMES ARCHIBALD6 was born on 8 Jan 1867 at Ballindoon, Parish Killadoon, Co. Sligo. He married Margaret Clark, daughter of Thomas Clarke and Jane Spratt, on 5 Oct 1892 at Boston, MA. He married Maud Alice Rayne, daughter of George Rayne and Margaret Ross, on 28 Jun 1905 at Medford, MA. He died on 2 Apr 1940 at 26 Montrose Street, Boston, at age 73. He was buried on 4 Apr 1940 at Forest Hills Cemetery.
    •     26.  ii.   WILLIAM was born on 14 Mar 1868 at Sligo, Ireland. He married Amanda Skoog, daughter of John O. Skoog and Elsa Benson, on 29 Nov 1910 at Boston, Suffolk, Massachusetts. He was buried on 13 Apr 1950 at Kilmactranny Parish, Sligo, Ireland.
    •       x.   GEORGE RUSSELL was born on 15 Apr 1870 at Sligo, Ireland. He was baptized on 26 Jun 1870 at Kilmactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland.
    •     29.  v.   VIOLET FRANCES was born on 14 Jul 1872 at Sligo, Ireland. She married James Fairbanks.
    •     28.  iv.   RICHARD was born circa 1875 at Ireland. He married Elizabeth Lenore Rice, daughter of Ivory Fogg Rice and Mary McCartee, on 12 May 1902 at Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
    •     30.  vi.   HUBERT ALEXANDER was born on 6 Jan 1878 at Ireland. He married Annie McKinnon, daughter of Daniel McKinnon and Christine McRury, on 5 Jun 1917 at Medford, Massachusetts. He died on 12 Dec 1954 at Quincy at age 76. He was buried on 14 Dec 1954 at Mount Wollaston Cemetery.
    •     27.  iii.   GEORGE was baptized on 12 Oct 1879 at Kilmactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland. He married Annie Craig. He died at Derrycashel. He was buried on 29 Jul 1960 at Kilbryan church yard, Roscommon, Ireland.
    •     32.  ix.   JOHN EDWARD was born in Mar 1882 at Ireland. He married Waitie Covell. He married Margaret Lillie McMaster, daughter of Hubert McMaster and Eliza Neary, on 13 Dec 1917 at Kilmactranny Church of Ireland, Sligo, Ireland. He died on 27 Mar 1970 at Marlboro, Massachusetts. He was buried on 30 Mar 1970 at Maplewood Cemetery, Marlboro.
    •     31.  viii.   DAVID was born on 8 May 1884 at Ireland. He married Annie E. Gray. He died on 27 May 1953 at 8 Howe St., Milton, at age 69. He was buried on 29 May 1953 at Forest Hills.
    •       vii.   SUSAN JANE was born in 1887 at Ballindoon, Sligo, Ireland. She married Edward Crawford on 4 Apr 1918 at Kilimactranny Church, Sligo, Ireland; Moved to Northern Ireland.

For some reason, my web page list of siblings was all out-of-order. George Russel must have died young. That leaves nine children. My great-grandfather James was in Boston in 1887. That leaves eight. Other than the father and the mother I am having trouble figuring out who is who.

Here is a photo from Boston:

  • My grandfather is seated on the left – James Archibald
  • That must be William seat on the right. He married in Boston and moved back to Ireland.
  • The man standing in the middle appears to be the oldest of the three in the back row. That could make him Richard b. 1875
  • The man of the right could be Hubert Alexander b 1878. He would be Paul’s grandfather.
  • I don’t think George ever came to the US

That still leaves a bit of confusion. One problem is that my web page has John Edward born March 1882. However, the Ireland Census shows him born about 1889:

 

Assuming the top photo had the youngest boys and the two girls that would make this a possibility:

I believe I have George and Hubert reversed. If I am right, that would put this photo at about 1896 or 1897. Violet married about 4 years later at Kilmactranny Parish Church:

Just to confuse things, here is another photo that I rescanned today. This was apparently taken at a later date.

Emily’s DNA

By the chart at the top of the Blog, Emily and I should be 2nd cousins once removed. MyHeritage predicts that we would be 3rd or 4th cousins, so we must share less DNA than average. Here is how my match looks with Emily.

All my matches are on Chromosomes 17-20. This represents DNA that came down to both Emily and me from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Here is what it looks like when I add these segments to my Chromosome map:

My Frazer matches are on my paternal side which is at the top of each chromosome. The matches representing George Frazer and Margaret McMaster are in a teal color.

The Mystery of Chromosome 20

When I first looked at my DNA matches, I was frustrated at the number of matches on my Chromolsome 20. There was a utility at the time that would give a graphic representation of your matches.

The light blue represented my Chromsome 20 matches. Even though Chromosome 20 is one of the smallest chromosome, I had most of my matches there. In January 2016, I wrote a Blog about this. At the time, I was learning how to do Visual Phasing. That is figuring out which grandparent you got your DNA from on each chromosome. I was surprised to find out that these matches were through my Frazer grandparent line. That didn’t mean that all the matches were Frazers, but they did in my case go through my Frazer grandmother. For example, they may be McMaster, Clarke, Spratt or other unknown matches to some of my grandmother’s ancestors.

Emily and Melanie Seem to Be the Key

One of my largest matches with Emily was on Chromosome 20. My only match with Melanie was on Chromosome 20. Finally,  after over two years, I have an actual match that I connect genealogically to my family.

Emily’s Match with Paul

I have had four of my siblings tested for DNA, but I have not uploaded their results to MyHeritage. They are all at Gedmatch where I have done a lot of work on analyzing Frazer DNA. I have, however, uploaded my cousin Paul’s DNA to MyHeritage.

Here is how MyHeritage shows the predicted relationship between Emily and Paul based on DNA:

Paul and Emily are actually 2nd cousins, so that would be right in the middle of what MyHeritage predicted. Here is how Emily and Paul match on a chromosome browser:

This is DNA that Emily and Paul share originating from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. So about half of this DNA on average would be from each great grandparent.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was glad to find two Frazer relatives that had their DNA tested.
  • These relatives descend from the younger sister of my great-grandfather. Her name was Susan Frances Frazer. I believe I have identified her in a photo.
  • Although my DNA match levels were less than average for Emily and Melanie, I was able to place them in a huge group of matches that has previously had no identified matches.
  • If Emily and Melanie upload their DNA results to Gedmatch, I will be able to add them to the Frazer DNA Project Group for further comparison with that group
  • I have uploaded more of my kits to MyHeritage in the meantime to see how they match with Emily and Melanie
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My New Match with Anita from Latvia

There has been some buzz recently on the genetic genealogy Facebook Pages about MyHeritage and how useful it is becoming. Not too long after uploading my DNA to MyHeritage, a new match, Anita, showed up as my top match. This was MyHeritage’s estimate as to our relationship:

I guessed that Anita was related on my mother’s side as my mom’s dad grew up in Latvia. I wrote to Anita and she kindly and warmly wrote back. Anita lives in Latvia, so she is my first Rathfelder relative living in Latvia that I have a DNA match with.

A Rathfelder DNA Testing Tree

I have had another Rathfelder descendant tested, Catherine. She is even more closely related to Anita. Here are some Rathfelder descendants that have tested.

The Old Rathfelder DNA Testing Tree

This is the tree I have been working with:

Astrid is related, but more distantly than my second cousin Catherine, my mom, my siblings and two 1st cousins. I’ll use a different method to add Anita to the tree:

This chart gives the relationships between each DNA-tested Rathfelder descendant. I am a 2nd cousin once removed to Anita. MyHeritage had me as first cousin twice removed to 2nd cousin once removed by the DNA. They were right.

The Leo Rathfelder’s Line

Anita’s great-grandfather was Leo Rathfelder. Here is my web page on that Line:

Anita descends from Vera. It will be interesting to hear what that part of the family has been up to in Latvia since 1944.

I had asked Anita to upload her results to Gedmatch.com and she went along with my request. Here is how we match there:

Gedmatch has an estimated number of generations to our MRCA as 3.1. The MRCA is our Most recent common ancestors, Johann Heinrich Rathfelder and Maria Gangnus. I am three generations away from this couple and Anita is four, so that is an average of 3.5 generations away. This means that Anita and I share more than the average DNA for our 2nd cousin once removed relationship. Also I note that quite a few SNPs were used in comparison which is good. The test at MyHeritage is apparently much better than the one at 23andme which does not currently meet the gedmatch.com threshold for normal sharing.

The Kitty Munson Chromosome Mapper

One fun thing to do with DNA is mapping. Kitty Munson has an on-line utility to map your DNA. All the DNA I have above will be mapped to Heinrich Rathfelder and Maria Gangnus. Right now my map looks like this:

 

Heinrich and Maria are a sort of orange color on the maternal (bottom) side of my chromosomes. Anita should make a good contribution to this map. Previously, Catherine’s matches with me contributed to this DNA from these two great grandparents. Catherine has a large match with me on Chromosome 18, so Anita will not add anything there, but she will on other chromosomes.

Here is the new map with my matches to Anita added:

Anita added a lot of DNA to my Chromosome map on Chromosomes 3, 11, 14, 15. 16, and 19.

Anita and the X Chromosome

The X Chromosome is more of a female thing than a male one. I say this because woman have two X Chromosomes and men have one. This is the X Chromosome DNA match that Anita and my mom share:

Gangnus DNA

The DNA that Anita and my mother share is from the Gangnus side. How do I know that? Here is the paternal side of my mother’s DNA inheritance chart:

The maternal side (not shown) does not apply to Anita. My mom inherits X Chromosome DNA from the blue and pink areas but none from the white areas. This shows that at the level that my mom and Anita match each other, the DNA that they share has to be on the Gangnus side. That is because my mother’s father Alexander didn’t get any DNA from his father. He only got a full dose of DNA from his mother Marie Gangnus that he sent down to my mom.

Anita’s X Chromosome DNA inheritance pathway is a bit longer:

Anita got a full dose also of her grandmother Vera Rathfelder’s  X Chromosome from her dad. However, I think that Vera’s X Chromosome would have been a combination of her father and mother’s X Chromosome.

I have mapped out the X Chromosome for myself and four of my siblings:

The Rathfelder part is in green. Lentz is my mother’s mother’s side. That was the part I didn’t show on the bottom side of her X Chromosome inheritance chart. As I mentioned above, all the Rathfelder DNA on the X Chromosome came from Maria Gagnus, so it could just as well say Gagnus instead of Rathfelder. I am on the J bar. I got Lentz DNA from 100 to 140. My mom matches Anita from 114 to 144. That means that I should match Anita from 110 to 114 as my green Rathfelder/Gangnus X Chromosome inheritance starts at 110. When I check gedmatch for an X match with Anita, at first I didn’t get a match. That is because gedmatch sets the SNP level for matching higher than  the other chromosomes. When I lower the SNP level, I get this match with Anita on the X Chromosome:

 

Anita and Catherine’s Mystery X Chromosome Match

At first, I thought that I had stumped myself with this one, but I figured it out. Anita’s largest X Chromosome match is with her 1st cousin once removed Catherine:

I confused myself by the way I drew the DNA inheritance map:

Here it looks like the X Chromosome is traveling from Leo to Catherine’s father which is impossible. After posting a question to the ISOGG Facebook Page, I figured it out. Obviously Leo had a wife, Lidia Vasiljeva. This DNA was from her. I was focused on the Rathfelder side and forgot the Vasiljeva side that I’m totally unrelated to. So if Anita and Catherine are ever sitting around pondering their X Chromosome match with each other, they will now know that their match is a Vasiljeva match. Mystery solved.

Here is Marie (Maria?) Gangnus.

Other matches with Anita are from Marie Gangnus or her Rathfelder husband and we can’t identify which. Matches with Anita and my family on the X Chromosome would be from Marie’s DNA.

Other DNA Matches

This could be a topic for further research. Gedmatch has a way to look for people that match two other people. In this case, I’ll choose my mom and Anita. When I put these two names into the Gedmatch Utility, I came up with a short list including myself and my siblings.

One prominent DNA match was David. He matched my mom and Anita. This chromosome browser is from the perspective of my mom:

On Chromosome 14, my mom matches #1 Anita, #2 Catherine and #3 David. David tested at Family Tree DNA, so I’ll check there. Unfortunately David has no tree posted at either FTDNA or Gedmatch, so I may write to say hi.

Anita and Astrid

I’m a bit puzzled by Astrid. I had written a few Blogs about her previously. The most recent Blog is here. It seems like the DNA is telling me that Astrid should be more closely related than she is.

This table gives different matches to Astrid. If I have the tree right, then all these people seem to be off by about one generation. At the time I wrote the previous Blog on Astrid’s ancestors, I had thought that the higher matches had something to do with her being related to the Gangnus family also.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was pleasantly surprised to find Anita through DNA matching. I would like to find out more about her family.
  • I was able to match much more of my Rathfelder/Gangnus DNA thanks to Anita
  • X Chromosome matches that Anita and my family and cousins share is really Gangnus DNA coming through the Rathfelder male line.
  • It is possible that this DNA match with Anita will make it easier to find other Rathfelder relatives.
  • The Rathfelder family has been separated for over 100 years between Latvia, England, and the United State (and perhaps other places). Now thanks to DNA matches and the internet, connections are being made again.

 

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Richard and a Frazer DNA Breakthrough: Part One

Richard contacted me recently as he had seen my web page on my Frazer ancestors. He had seen some similarities between my Frazers and the names and places of Ontario Frazer ancestors he was researching and wondered if his Frazer ancestors matched with mine.

Here are some of the people that Richard has been researching. I have quoted Richard below in part:

Eliza Frazer, b. in Ireland on December 11, 1827 per 1901 Canada Census, having immigrated to Canada in 1842.

Ann Frazer, b. in Ireland about October 1832.  No record to date of Ann’s birthplace or parents.  She married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland) in 1853, probably in Brant or Oxford counties, Ontario.

Rebecca Frazer, b. 1837 in Ireland, d. 1877 in Huron County Ontario.  Rebecca lived with Ann Frazer Johnston and Robert Johnston in 1861, as did Robert’s employee William Geddes.   Rebecca married William Geddes in 1865.  Their marriage record lists Rebecca’s parents as Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor.

George James Frazer/Fraser, b. July 6 1841 in County Sligo, Ireland.  No record yet of date of immigration.  George is listed in the 1861 Canada Census in Woodstock, Oxford County, Ontario, occupation school teacher.  George married Jane Burgess (daughter of William Burgess and Elizabeth Ann Watt) of Woodstock in 1863 in Paris, Brant County, Ontario.  The marriage record lists George’s parents as Philip Fraser and Mary Gray.

One interesting thing is that all these Frazers had children except Rebecca. Eliza, Ann and George all named their first child Philip. Richard guessed that Eliza was the one I had on my Frazer Web Page and that Ann and Rebecca were sisters. Richard descends from Ann who “…married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland)…”

My initial guess was that all these four were siblings.

A Reassessment of the Philip Frazer Line

The earliest research on the Frazer line that we know of was done in the 1950’s:

This research shows Philip Frazer born 1758 with sons Philip and George. Subsequent research by Frazer descendents have moved these brothers’ birth dates up to the 1770’s. I reasoned that the James Frazer that married Violet Frazer above was actually another son of Philip above. This was based mostly on the James’ naming of his first son Philip and where these families lived in proximity to each other.

Here is my web page version:

 

Note that I have that the younger Philip married a Jane Johnston in 1818. However, it could be that the father Philip married this Jane as a second wife. Philip would have been about 42 in 1818.

Further, this George is of interest. My 2nd great grandfather was George Frazer born around 1836. He could have been named after the late George born say around 1800. Looking above, the George that the Richard of this Blog has could also have been named for the same George. This gives circumstantial evidence that he could also have been of this same Philip Line.

Finally, note the tithe applotment. My assumption is that George, Philip and James were three brothers. My second assumption is that they are listed in order of age. That would make George the eldest and James the youngest. I have James born around 1804 based on his age at death. That would put the two brothers as born sometimes before then – Perhaps 1800 and 1802.

More Thoughts on the Philip Frazer, Jr. Line

Here is my web page which is in need of revising:

First, I am leaning toward putting Jane Johnston with the elder Philip. Second, I now have a wife for the junior Philip from Michael’s compilation of Frazer records:

MLB                 Marriage Licence Bonds (Diocese of Elphin 1709-1845)

This information is interesting in light of Richard’s research showing that Rebecca’s parents were Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor. Richard’s Rebecca was born later than the one I have on my web page above. This could mean one of two things:

  • The first Rebecca died and the family had a later Rebecca
  • Rebecca wanted to be younger than she really was

This brings up the subject of the Maxwell Discontinuity.

The Maxwell Discontinuity.

I had told Richard that this was the Minion discontinuity, but apparently I was wrong. These are Minions:

Maxwell was the Parish Priest in Klmactranny. He was supposed to be taking down records but didn’t between sometime in 1830 and sometime before early 1842. For this reason, a lot of important records are missing. My 2nd great grandfather was born about 1836. So that could explain his missing birth record. Apparently the birth of Richard’s George James Frazer is missing due to the Maxwell discontinuity. Hmm… perhaps George James Frazer was named for the deceased George mentioned above and also for my ancestor James born about 1804. Well, James is a common name. Another issue for Richard’s George James Frazer is that his mother is listed as Mary Gray rather than Mary Taylor. There could be at least two reasons for that:

  • The wrong name could have been written down for George’s mother on his marriage record
  • George’s father could have remarried a Mary Gray. I suppose if this was the case, then DNA testing of descendants would show the difference. For example, matches between Richard and George’s descendants would be half cousins, so the DNA matches would be half as much as they would be with the full cousins.

What About Ann Frazer born 1832

If Ann Frazer was a sibling of Philip, Eliza, Rebecca and George she would have been born during the Maxwell Discontinuity. It would have been likely that she would have been baptized at the same Church as her siblings.

That sums up some of the genealogical connections between the families.

Next, on to the DNA

Richard’s Ancestry DNA Matches

Richard gave me access to his DNA results. I typed in Frazer on Richard’s match list and came up with these results:

 

These were just the projected 4th cousin by DNA matches. The first match was with Michael who compiled the Frazer records I mentioned above. The second match was with Gladys who I have as descending from Philip Frazer. Both of these people are the Frazer DNA project that I run. I don’t know who Debbie is.

Under more distant cousins, my sister Lori and I are listed. Then there is Moira who I don’t know. Finally there is someone who wished to remain anonymous, but is clearly related on what I have as the Philip Frazer (Sr.) Line. Once I saw the Ancestry results, I was quite sure that Richard was on the right track and was related by DNA and genealogy to the rest of the Frazers in the Frazer DNA Group.

But Wait, There’s More: Shared Matches

AncestryDNA doesn’t have a chromosome browser, but they do have a useful utility called Shared Matches. When I check the Shared Matches between myself and Richard, I come up with Gary. Here is Gary’s paternal tree from Ancestry:

Gary has his great grandfather William Acheson as being from Rockview, Lough Arrow, County Sligo. My Frazer ancestors lived on Lough Arrow and some of my relatives are still there. The ones I have been most in touch with live on the NE shore of Lough Arrow Here is a map of the Rock View Hotel, which I assume could be the same place:

Another tie-in is that Arthur, someone that helped with my genealogy years ago, was researching Achesons. Arthur was the one that coined the phrase Maxwell Discontinuity and discovered the gap of missing records.

It turns out that Gary’s father’s best man at his wedding was one of my Frazer relatives from near Lough Arrow. I had asked Gary to upload his results to Gedmatch. I didn’t see his message that he did that until I looked again at his results at AncestryDNA just recently. Right now Gary’s results don’t give me any easy answers, but there seem to be some interesting connections there – somewhere that we haven’t figured out yet. Ah, the mystery of genetic genealogy.

By the way, a Shared Match means just that. It means I match Richard by DNA. Richard matches Gary and I match both of them. It is not the same as triangulation by DNA but it could be the same. In a way it means, where there is smoke, there may be fire.

A Summary of Part One

  • Some Ontario Frazers that Richard has been researching (including his own ancestor Ann Frazer) appear to be siblings. They also all descend from Philip Frazer. This appears to be the same Philip who I have as the son of another Philip from North Roscommon, Ireland and the brother of my ancestor James Frazer. I have not proven that my ancestor James is the brother of Philip, but the research from Richard adds circumstantial evidence to the work that I have done.
  • In addition to matching by genealogy to my Frazer relatives, Richard matches me, my sister and two other Frazers in the Frazer DNA Project: Gladys and Michael. The match to Gladys can be explained if we are all descended from Philip Frazer born around 1776.
  • Richard also matches Michael at AncestryDNA. I have that Michael does not descend from Philip born around 1776, but from two of his brothers: Richard and Archibald. That means that the common ancestor between Michael, myself, Gladys and Richard could be the father of Philip or another collateral line. Actually Gladys does match Michael on another Frazer Line. Both Gladys and Michael descend from Archibald Frazer born about 1778 who is a brother of the Philip born about 1776.
  • Richard and I have another shared match Gary. The connection between this Gary, Richard and me may be even more difficult to figure out than the one between Michael, Richard and myself. This is because Gary is not aware of any Frazers in his ancestry.
  • So far, my research on the Frazer family has been a great collaboration with other Frazer researchers around the world. I am glad to have Richard contributing his research to the work that others have done.

Next Blog

In the next Blog, I’ll take a look at Richard’s results at Gedmatch. AncestryDNA gives some general matching information, but does not give specific matches. With specific matches, on specific parts of specific chromosomes, it is possible to infer or give pretty good indication of common ancestors. This DNA may give further evidence for or against having my James Frazer in the Philip Line.

Also, I know how I am related to Michael. My ancestor Violet Frazer was the daughter of Richard Frazer born about 1777. Violet was the sister of Isabella Frazer who was the ancestor of Michael. However, I am not sure how Richard matches Michael. He would have a common ancestor in the father of Philip Sr who was Archicbald Frazer born about 1743, but that is going quite a way back.

 

 

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Frazer-Johnston DNA and Genealogy

I recently had some good news. John contacted me. He has Johnston and Frazer ancestry and wants to know if I could look at his DNA. I like it when I am not chasing down people and someone gets in touch with me without me first asking them. In his initial contact with me, John brought a smile to my face when he noted that I was “working the DNA hard”. This brought to my mind the comedy mocumentary “Walk Hard”.

Frazer-Johnston Genealogy

I have had an interest in the Johnstons for some time. I noticed that they were living in vicinity of Frazers  in North Roscommon and had married into the family – though not into my specific line as far as I know.

Here is the important Frazer-Stinson marriage.

This was compiled by Michael of our Frazer DNA group and researched by Ros of our group. Good team effort.

I also find this entry interesting:

My research leads me to believe that I am descended from the elder Philip [Frazer] mentioned above. That theory could be supported if I were to find a descendant from this line to test their DNA.

That brings up a point. It is an excellent genealogical method to research collateral lines when researching your own line. Johnston would be considered a collateral line for me and for those in the Frazer DNA Project. Research in these lines can shed light on your own line.

A Bloated Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line

This line is bloated but in a good way.

I added John on the left as he descends from Mary Frazer. Mary appears to be an elder daughter of the Frazer/Stinson union. By this chart, John is 4th cousin to those in his generation from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. John is 4th cousin once removed to those that one generation down from him (bottom row).

I should note that there are two types of DNA testers in the tree above. The first group from the viewpoint of the Frazers are only in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line and no other Frazer Line. The second group are in more than one Frazer Line. Those that are in more than one line are:

  • Jane
  • Michael
  • Those in the yellow group to the right

I put a red box around the lines that descend from more than one Frazer from the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Tree. This is important when trying to separate out the DNA.

Derrycastle During the Tithe Applotment (1834)

The Tithe Applotment was an assessment to support the Church of Ireland from what I understand. Here is a list of the families in Derrycastle in 1834:

Here is the original handwritten list:

My sense is that the most important person was listed first in these assessments. Now I get to quote myself as a self-appointed leading authority on Derrycastle. From my Frazer webpage:

The Tithe Applotment is considered to be a census substitute. We may tell where many of the heads of households lived at this time. There were 19 Frazers listed in this ‘census’ in Roscommon. That is more than any other Republic of Ireland County at the time. John is difficult to determine due to the number of Johns in the area. My guess is that he is the John b. c. 1805 who married Isabella. Archy may be John’s brother. William may be yet another brother. I don’t know who Ann is – perhaps his mother Ann Stinson Frazer(?) Philip and James are likely the sons of Philip. Archy of Shanvoley apparently was from or lived in Shanvoley. I don’t know if people were listed more than once in the Tithe Applotment. There is also an Archy and Alexander listed in Shanvoley in 1834. Actually they are listed as being in Bothoriagh Shanvallew Derrynamontrue. I don’t know who the widow McGrath was. Lastly John Johnston was probably Jane Frazer’s husband below.

To answer my question above, I believe that people were listed more than once in these Applotments. For example Alexander of Shanvoley lived in Shanvoley, but had some land in Derrycastle. This would be quite common as these Townlands were quite small.

Another question is: who was George Frazer? I didn’t address that above. However, Michael’s compilation of records has:

So if my theory is right, then my ancestor James Frazer was the son of Philip and the brother of George. That would explain where my 2nd great grandfather George Frazer (son of James) got his name:

My great great grandfather (seated to the right in the photo above) was born about 1838 and was apparently named after his Uncle George who died late in 1831 – probably in his memory. I was recently wondering where George got his name. This would be a good explanation. While I’m off the subject, I’ve slept in the house pictured above which I think is pretty cool. The house is still in the family. My great grandfather who was the eldest child had already left for Boston, Massachusetts by the time this photo was taken. He was seeking his fortune in the new world.

Getting back on subject, I find it interesting that Ann Stinson Frazer is probably the Ann Frazer listed in the 1834 Tithe Applotment above. Information supplied to me by the John of this Blog indicates that Ann Stinson died in 1840 – 6 years after the taking of the Tithe Applotment.

John’s Frazer DNA

I don’t know much about Johnston DNA, so I will be looking at John’s Frazer DNA. By the way, what is the question we are trying to answer with John’s DNA? One is, does the genealogy look right? Does John belong in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line? According to this table, John should have a better than even chance of matching a 4th cousin:

However, for 4th cousin, once removed, it looks like he has less than an even chance of matching by DNA.

The Archibald Line Matrix

The matrix is getting too big for the whole Frazer DNA project, so I will just show it for the Archibald Line:

I am at the top left. I don’t descend from Archy and Ann. David is someone who is unsure of his relationship to our group but does match by DNA. I suspect he descends from Richard Frazer born in the 1770’s. John is below David in the first column. Notice that John doesn’t match anyone in my family – the family that does not descend from Archy and Ann Stinson. So that would make sense. David should also be in the ‘not descending from Stinson’ category. John has nine matches with 15 Frazer/Stinson descendants. That sounds like more than half. Albeit, two of those matches are below 7 cM.

John had asked me about his lack of match with Michael at AncestryDNA. At Gedmatch, John clearly matches Michael. My guess is that Ancestry uses a method to filter out some of the matches that it thinks might not be real or accurate. It is that method that likely filtered out this match between John and Michael. Some people don’t like Ancestry’s filtering. To me, the match between John and Michael looks good.

More DNA Details and Triangulation

John had a question to me about AncestryDNA circles. I told him that they are OK, but that triangulation is much more precise. To find Triangulation Groups (TGs), I use the Multi Kit Analysis utility at Gedmatch. If three not very closely people match each other on the same segment of DNA, then that is considered a TG. It means that those three share a common ancestor. In this study, we are looking for common Frazer ancestors.

Based on the Multi Kit Analysis, John matches 7 people on the Archibald Frazer Line:

That makes sense as I mentioned that two matches were under the 7 cM threshold. Here John matches brother and sister Susan and Ken as well as their 1st cousin Patricia. That would be John’s TG. Then he matches Gladys, Michael, Doug and Vivien of the Frazer/Stinson Line.

This shows that John matches Frazer/Stinson descendants on four different lines. That is quite convincing. These international matches represent Australia, two DNA testers from England and Canadian relatives.

The triangulation is with the yellow line of Frazer descendants on the right. This is likely because they have more people tested to triangulate with. John mentioned a common area that his family lived in with the yellow line. That was Martinsburg, NY. So John should also check that there was no common ancestor from that connection. My guess is that the small DNA match they have represents Frazer as a New York connection would likely represent a larger DNA match.

Actually, my next project is to determine what parts of DNA Doreen, Ken and Susan got from their grandparents – especially their Frazer grandfather. I’ll be using a procedure called Visual Phasing. So this Chromosome 3 match they have with John would very likely be from their Frazer grandfather.

For fun, I checked to see if John matched anyone in the James Line of Frazers. He matched Charlotte from that Line, but only at 6.0 cM.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Going over John’s Frazer-Johnston background was interesting and it shed some new possibilities for my own genealogy.
  • Like Michael, John represents for now, a single line branch coming down from a child of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.
  • Unlike Michael, John only descends from one Frazer Line.
  • Although technically, the DNA could indicate that John descends only from Archibald Frazer or Ann Stinson, there is no reason to believe that John does not descend from both.
  • It can be comforting to know that your genealogical research is backed up by DNA evidence.
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Ken’s Frazer Autosomal DNA

Ken’s DNA test came in recently to Family Tree DNA. Then it was uploaded to Gedmatch. One important thing about Ken’s test results is that he is the third of three siblings to have taken the DNA test. That means that it is possible for Ken and his two sisters to figure out what DNA they got from their four grandparents. This is important in figuring out how you match other people by DNA.

Ken’s Genealogy

Ken descends from three different Frazer Lines. I am in this line.

Notice that James Frazer married a Violet Frazer. Yes, they were cousins. It seems weird today, but this apparently was not as weird in the early 1800’s. I am not completely sure of this line. I know that Violet married James, but I am not completely sure that James was the son of Philip. It would make sense as James first son was named Philip which may have been in honor of James’ father. This would have been a common naming practice but not a hard and fast rule.

Here is another line I’m in:

This line descends from Richard who was Philip’s brother. Here Violet’s father at least is quite certain. I don’t know who Richard’s wife was. This is a bigger branch of the family. These branches shown are only those that have taken the DNA test. David on the left matches, but he hasn’t been connected for certain by genealogy. Jane was added to line by DNA also (in conjunction with some probably genealogy) but she was already in another Frazer Line.

Here is the third line Ken is in.

One good thing about this line is that we have a wife for Archibald at the top. Archibald is another brother of Philip and Richard. Archibald’s wife was Ann Stinson, so I think of this as the Stinson Line. Another thing about this Frazer line is that some of the people that are in it are only in the Stinson Line. That is, except for the yellow line, Michael, and Jane.

Ken’s DNA Compared to Other Frazer DNA

Here is how Ken compares to other Frazers descending from North Roscommon County, Ireland.

I put all the matches in a matrix:

I put the matches into categories. David is in the wrong area. He should be with the Richard Frazer descendants – at least this was our guess. I lumped all the James Frazer Line together as the Archibald line does not, in general have large matches with them. They are in the bottom right of the matrix.

Ken is my 4th cousin. He matches my brother Jonathan at 18.5 cM and my sister Lori at 74.2 cM. Ken is a 3rd cousin once removed to Paul and matches him even less at 11.7 cM. This just shows the randomness of DNA inheritance. Ken’s DNA match with Lori is above average and his match with Paul is below average. However, they are both within range for either 3rd cousin once removed or fourth cousin.

Ken’s Frazer DNA More Specifically

The above chart shows where Ken, highlighted in blue, matches other Frazers. To get where he matches them on each specific chromosome, I go to Gedmatch’s ‘Multi Kit Analysis’. I choose all the DNA testers in the Frazer project. Then I download the individual matches. This gives me over 3200 matches. I also change the names of the people to make them more private. I usually take out the last name. Unfortunately, I didn’t distinguish between my brother Jonathan and the Jonathan on the James Line. Hopefully, I’ll be able to figure that out.

Here is a summary of Ken’s matches that are at the level of James and Violet Frazer or above. I took out his closer matches as the closer you get to a relative, the more lines you may match on.

  • Vivien and Cathy are from the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line
  • Lori, Jonathan, Joel, Heidi and Sharon represent the James/Violet Frazer Line
  • Prudence is from the far-away James Line
  • Jane may match Ken in either the Richard Frazer or Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line
  • David is not certain by genealogy, but I have placed him for the time being in the Richard Frazer Line

Ken and Triangulation

What I am looking for are Triangulation Groups or TGs. These are threesomes of matches all on the same part of the chromosome. These matches indicate a common ancestor. This could be important to figure out whether a specific DNA match with Ken is the in the Richard group, the Archibald group or perhaps the Philip group.

Ken and Lori – Chromosome 3

Ken matches my sister Lori on Chromosome 3.

I have added some of the other matches for comparison. Madeline, Mary, Gary and Judith are on the James Line, so they can be ignored for this Archibald Line match.

Here we have a new Triangulation Group (TG). Lori matches Ken and Patricia and Ken and Patricia match each other.

This shows that the Chromosome 3 TG represents DNA from James Frazer or Violet Frazer. Lori was the 5th and my most recent sibling DNA tester. She is the only one of my siblings that matched Pat and Ken. This is why:

The top part is a map of the DNA for me and my sisters Heidi and Sharon. This was done by Martin Macneill from our ‘raw’ DNA. The lighter red is Frazer DNA. Heidi got Frazer DNA up to about 26M. Sharon got Frazer DNA up to 27M. The match Ken has with Lori is at 60-74M. So Lori is my only sibling out of 5 that could match Ken.

This TG on Chromosome 3 gives strong evidence to support the Frazer tree up to James and Violet Frazer. We can’t tell from this TG whether the DNA represents James or Violet Frazer. It would have to be one or the other. We do know that it is Frazer DNA.

Here I have added Ken to the TG Matrix:

This is just the part of the Matrix that has people descending from James and Violet Frazer. The yellow boxes indicateTGs that probably represent James and Violet Frazer.

Chromosome 12 in the Age of Discovery

I feel like I’m in the Age of Discovery for DNA. Here are some Chromosome 12 discoveries. Actually, a TG12B above has already been discovered. However, there are a few interesting points about this TG.

First, there are quite a few people in this TG. There are eight people shown above in TG12B. Secondly, David, who I mentioned above, is in this TG. David is the ninth person in TG12B. Thirdly, Jane is in this TG. Jane does not descend from James and Violet, but she does descend from Violet’s father Richard. This TG is not likely an Archibald/Stinson TG as Heidi, Joel and Sharon do not descend from that Line. This seems to confirm that David should be in this Richard Line.

Here are David’s Chromosome 12 matches:

I had actually pointed out David’s TG in previous Blogs, so perhaps this is more like the age of re-discovery.

 

This tends to solidify the TG and relationship that David has to the Frazer DNA Project. If the tree I drew is correct, then David would be 4th cousin to Jan and Gladys and 4th cousin, once removed to Ken, Bill, Sharon, Heidi, Joel and Lori. In support of my theory for David, I note that his level of DNA matches with the group and Jane’s level of DNA matches are very consistent with each other. Here are Jane’s match levels for comparison:

Next Up

I would like to get started with the Visual Phasing for Ken, Susan and Doreen. This should at least separate out what DNA they got from their Frazer grandfather and what DNA they got from their Gray grandmother. If I find out more about their maternal side, I will be able to map to those two grandparents also – depending on how many known matches they know on that side.

Summary and Conclusions

  • At one point, I was tentative about joining the genealogies of my family with those of the Richard Patterson Frazer Branch. Now, with all the DNA matches, the relationship is very clear.
  • I am reminded of the connection between David and our Frazer branch. He has a Frazer ancestor that he has not linked to our Frazers by genealogy. However, David is certainly linked to our Frazer project by DNA. That link appears to be on a Frazer line. However, it is possible that the link may be on a collateral line.
  • I’m looking forward to starting the visual phasing of Ken and his two sisters

 

 

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My Mother’s Best Lentz DNA Match

I’ve been in touch with Radelle for a while. First, we were in touch over Lentz genealogy without the DNA part. Some of the Lentz genealogy that I had done in the past was helpful in Radelle finding parents for her ancestor Eliza Lentz. Radelle later took the AncestryDNA test and recently uploaded those results to Gedmatch.com.

Lentz Genealogy

I have made a Lentz tree for those that have had their DNA tested and uploaded the results to Gedmatch. There would be a bigger tree of those who haven’t had their DNA tested.

I’m on the left side of the chart. Radelle is on the right side of the chart. Radelle, Al, and Stephen descend from Eliza and William Andrew Lentz. Note that Al and Stephen’s great grandfather is Phillip Miller Chappell. Phillip Miller is discussed below as the 2nd husband of Eliza who married John Lentz at the top of the chart. Phillip Miller most likely raised the young Lentz family. Judy, Joshua, my mom and her children and my 1st cousin Cindy descend from Jacob Lentz b. 1818. Because Jacob George Lentz b. 1866 married Annie Nicholson, I can’t tell for sure if the matches with Judy, Joshua and Cindy are on the Lentz side or Nicholson side. Radelle and my mom are 4th cousins. Radelle is 4th cousin once removed to everyone else except for Joshua. Radelle is 4th cousin, 3 times removed to Joshua.

I had a difficult time nailing down John Lentz years ago when I was working on Lentz genealogy. I wasn’t sure if there were one or two John Lentz’s in the area at the time. From what I could tell, John died and his wife Eliza married Phillip Miller. Here is an 1877 death notice for Eliza:

Notice that the funeral reception was at Eliza’s daughter in law’s house. Mary A Lentz was my 3rd great grandmother, the wife of Jacob Lentz b. 1818. Eliza was Jacob Lentz’s (b. 1818) mom, so Mary A Lentz his wife was Eliza’s daughter in law. Based on the above death notice, Eliza would have been born about 1796.

Who Was the Eliza Lentz Married to John Lentz and Phillip Miller?

I see that Radelle has a possible name for Eliza:

 

This record was from Trinity Church, Oxford. According to Wikipedia:

Old Trinity Church, also known as Trinity Church, Oxford, is a historic Episcopal church founded in 1698 in Oxford Township, Pennsylvania, which is now part of Philadelphia

Here is another hint that came up for me at Ancestry. This is from Kensington

This may fit in better as far as the date goes. This would mean that Eliza was married at about age 26. The first marriage, Eliza would have been married at about age 17.

However, having said that, it does appear that Radelle is right as I have that the three sons of John were born before December 1st 1822. Perhaps Elizabeth Refford died in childbirth at the birth of Wiliam Andrew Lentz who was born 13 May 1822. John would have had no one to take care of his young family. So perhaps he remarried Eliza Rihl later that same year. Something to think about. However, then John Lentz died in 1823. Eliza marries Phillip Miller in 1825. If I have my facts right, then the Lentz children were raised by a step mother and a step father.

The DNA Part

I said that Radelle was my mom’s largest Lentz DNA match. Here is how they match at gedmatch:

Their estimated common ancestors are at 4.4 generations based on the DNA match. Their actual ancestors are 5 generations back, so that is a bit more than average DNA that they share. Here are some more matches Radelle has with my family:

Heidi and Jon are my siblings. Gladys is my mom. Heidi got the same match with Radelle that my mom had. Jon and I got less. My two sisters Lori and Sharon don’t match Radelle.

Mapping My Family’s DNA onChromosome 2

I have my DNA mapped. That mapping shows where my siblings and I got our DNA based on how our four grandparents contributed. Any match with Radelle should be on the Lentz grandparent side.

This shows why Jon and I had less than a fuill dose of Lentz DNA from our mom. My mom matches Radelle between 171 and 212M. I have a crossover at 186. That means on maternal Chromosome 2, my Lentz DNA ends at 186M and the Rathfelder DNA takes over. Lori is has all Rathfelder DNA in that area (from my mom’s dad) so she doesn’t match Radellether. Jon has a Crossover at 180M, so he matches Radelle’s Lentz DNA less than I do. Here is a close-up of the area where Radelle matches me and my brother Jon:

We match Radelle only in the yellow Lentz segments. I didn’t show Heidi, but she has a longer Lentz segment than Jon or me in this area of Chromosome 2.

DNA Matches to My Mom and Radelle

At Gedmatch, there is a way to find common matches to two people. I did this for my mom and Radelle. When those matches are on the same segment, that tells me that these people should share the same ancestors. Here is how my mom matches Radelle and four others on Chromosome 2:

#3 had a tree at Gedmatch.

A Lanz/Lantz family may be a link to the Lentz family.

Another Chromosome Map

Kitty Munson has a chromosome mapping utility at her web site. Using my new match with Radelle, I get this:

The new match with Radelle translates to the DNA I got from John Lentz b. 1792 (or his wife who appears to be Elisabeth). That new piece of DNA appears in pink on my maternal side Chromosome 2. This map is different from the mapping I did with Chromosome 2 above that only has my grandparents. This map uses matches from actual people with known ancestry. The DNA match with Radelle pushed back what I had on the Lentz family over 70 years.

Other Matches?

Unfortunately, I didn’t see other matches between Radelle and other Lentz descendants. It may be that the relationships are too distant and the DNA dropped out. However, Radelle matches my mom and three out of five of her children. My mom matches others on the Jacob George Lentz branch. That implies that the DNA match between my mom and Radelle also applies to them:

Here are the chances of matching a specific level of cousin:

Summary and Conclusions

  • Radelle is my mom’s biggest identified Lentz DNA match. This helps solidify the genealogy that Radelle and I have done.
  • With previous Jacob George Lentz descendants matches, I couldn’t tell if the DNA represented Lentz or Nicholson. The match with Radelle would be the first Lentz-only identified DNA match.
  • I was able to add a late 1700’s Lentz DNA segment to my Chromosome map
  • Radelle got me thinking again about John Lentz, Elisabeth and Eliza. I came up with a possible scenario for this family which had the children being raised by two step-parents.
  • Radelle does not match other Lentz desendants by DNA. This may be due to the distance of the relationships. After fourth cousin level, the chances of matching by DNA drops off.
  • I’ll be waiting to see if we find other Lentz DNA matches. These matches seem to be a bit rare.