The John Line of the Frazers and Marilee’s DNA

This is a follow-up on a previous Blog I wrote on the John Line. At that time, I found Marilee as a Frazer match at MyHeritage. Marilee has kindly agreed to upload her DNA to Gedmatch where I can compare her results to others in the Frazer DNA Project.

The John Frazer Line

If I have my genealogy right, John was the eldest known son of Archibald Frazer. I have John born around 1755 or 1757. Some researchers have him born as late as 1775. However, that would cause a problem with John’s son who Marilee has as being born in 1779.

 

Marilee’s Line is on the left. She is the lone known DNA tested person in the line. I have that John had four children. One of them was Archibald who Marilee has as her second great grandfather. Archibald had another John who emigrated. This John would be a pivotal person in the research of the John Frazer Line. The previous research that I have done did not go down from John.

More on John Frazer, Immigrant

Here is what Marilee has to say:

I know my Frazer ancestor emigrated from Ireland in 1850 and settled first in Niagara Falls, Ontario Canada, and then Lockport, New York, which is in Niagara County, New York. 

As I don’t have information on this line, I created a Frazer Tree at Ancestry. Here is Marilee’s grandfather and great-grandfather in the 1870 Census living in Lockport, NY:

Here the name is listed as Fraser.

In 1860, John was a Hotel Keeper:

It looks like John managed a staff of six. It appears from the birth of the children, that the family moved to New York about 1850.

I also found this monument at Ancestry:

The 1855 New York Census shows that the family had been in Lockport for four years:

That means that they would not be in the 1850 US Census and may not be in the Canadian 1851 Census. If Marilee is right and this family emigrated to Ireland in 1850, they wouldn’t have had much time in Canada. However, If John and Sarah had John in 1849 in Canada, they could have emmigrated in 1848 or 1849. Then there is the question of where did John and Sarah marry? I did find one tree that had the couple marrying in Ireland which probably makes sense.

Marilee’s DNA

One of the hopes of DNA testing is that it might shore up our genealogical research or point us in new directions for research. Let’s look at Marilee’s DNA.

Mystery Match With Bob

One of the first things I noticed on Marilee’s match list was a match with Bob. He looked familiar. Here is the match they have:

By DNA, it would look like Bob and Marilee are 2nd cousins once removed. Bob’s great-grandmother was Jane or Jennie McPartland. I have written many blogs on the McPartlands. I’m not sure if they have included Bob. Here is a portion of Bob’s tree at Ancestry:

Here is how Bob is related to other McPartlands:

It is no mystery that Bob is a 2nd cousin to Charlene and 3rd cousin to Karen and Chris. The mystery is why he shows as a pretty close DNA match to Marilee. Perhaps Bob and Marilee are related on a non-Frazer Line? Perhaps the Ann above is a daughter of Marilee’s 2nd great-grandfather Archibald Frazer?

Marilee also matches with Karen here:

For Bob, Karen and Marilee to triangulate, Bon would have to match Karen on Chromosome 7 in th same area. He does:

The closest place that Karen and Bob match are at Owen McPartland and Ann Frazer. As far as I know, Marilee has no McPartland ancestors, so that would point to the Frazer side.

In addition Brian, who I believe is Chris’ brother matches Marilee on Chromosome 7:

Marilee and Bonnie

The next person I notice going down Marilee’s match list is Bonnie. Bonnie is in the James Line of the Frazer DNA Project.

On the Frazer Chart, Bonny and Marilee would be 6th cousins. Here is their DNA match:

This is another mystery. By DNA this connection could indicate a 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin once removed.

A More Rational DNA Approach

So far, I have checked a few random matches for Marilee. These seem to indicate that she matches a McPartland that marred a Frazer and someone on the James Line of the Frazers even though Marilee’s genealogy shows she is on the Archibald Line of the Frazers.

Here is how Marilee matches others on the Archibald Line of the Frazers:

Marilee is on the top row. She matches me and some of my siblings over 15 cM. This could be a Frazer match or possibly a McMaster match. Marilee matches Michael at over 15 cM. She also matches Jamie who has a Frazer/Johnston background.

Here is how Marilee matches Frazer descendants from the James Frazer Line:

As noted above, Marilee has a good match with Bonnie. I notice that there appears to be a Stewart on the Michael Line. Marilee mentioned the Stewart name. Marilee has a pretty good match with Beverly also but a bit more with Charlotte. I note that both Charlotte and Marilee have a Jane White in their ancestry. Apparently two different Jane Whites. Charlotte’s great-grandmother is Ismena Jane White. Marilee has her third great-grandmother as Jane White.

Marilee and Triangulation

If Marilee triangulates with two people that are in the Frazer DNA Project. That means that those three people should have a common ancestor.  Above, I showed that Marilee triangulates with at least two people in the McPartland Group. That means that they have a common ancestor. I checked to see if the two Triangulation Groups (TGs) that Marilee is in has already beenidentified by my previous research. It appears that these are new TGs.

Next, I’ll look at Marilee compared to all the Archibald Line DNA-tested descendants. As I looked through the results, I found one TG:

The TG involves Marilee, Bob, me and my two younger sisters. That means that we have a common ancestor. It would take some fancy guesswork to figure out who that common ancestor is.

I checked also on the James Line for TGs, but didn’t see any.

One Guess on the Marilee, McPartland, Frazer Connection

In a previous Blog, I had supposed that my connection to the McPartland Family could look like this:

Under this scenario, Bob would have been connected to my family – above represented by my sister Heidi. This seems a bit convoluted. However, my second great-grandmother was Margaret McMaster. Her mother was also a McMaster named Fanny. Her mom was Margaret Frazer. I had supposed that Margaret could have been the sister of the Ann Frazer that married Owen McPartland. I further supposed that this Frazer could have been born around 1780. I notice that Marilee’s second great-grandfather was Archibald Frazer born 1779 and married to Jane White.

 

Above is a possible scenario that could fit the DNA. The clrcles and the lines represent the TG with a possible set of common ancestors. What if my Margaret Frazer was the daughter of Marilee’s Archibald and the sister of the Ann Frazer who married Owen McPartland? That would be one way to tie the families together. That would make Marilee and Bob third cousins, once removed and me and Marilee third cousins three times removed.

Let’s see if that is even possible. Bob and Marilee shared almost 111 cM. Here is part of a chart of ranges of DNA for fourth cousins:

127 is the highest expected match for a fourth cousin. That means that Bob and Marilee would be near the top of that range. My two younger sisters and I matched Marilee at 16 or 17 cM. That is a little below average for a fourth cousin, two times removed. I would be a fourth cousin twice removed to Bob under that above scenario. My two sisters match Bob at about 8 or 9.5 cM.

Perhaps someone will come forward with a more obvious explanation.

Occupants of Derrycastle 1834

Here is the Tithe Applotment for 1834 in Derrycastle:

My guess is that Archy is Marilee’s ancestor. John could have been his brother. William could have been his other brother. George, Philip and James could have been the sons of Philip. I believe that James was my ancestor.

Here is a map of the area:

 

The Tithe Applotment mentions Archy of Shan which would be Shanvoley. Dereenargan is where the McPartlands lived later. There were also at least one Frazer and McMaster living in Dereenargan at the time of Griffith’s Valuation. I discussed this previously here.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Marilee had a surprising DNA match with Bob – a McPartland/Frazer descendant.
  • Given what we knew of the genealogy, the size of the DNA match did not make a lot of sense
  • Bob, Marilee, and three in my family triangulated which means that we have a common ancestor.
  • I looked at some of my past DNA analysis of the McPartland/Frazer connection and came up with a possible scenario to explain the triangulation. This explanation would have Bob, Marilee and me descending from Marilee’s 2nd great grandfather, Archibald Frazer, born 1779 who married Jane White.
  • This explanation is further supported by the proximity the families. However, the genealogical evidence appears to be lacking.
  • This theory may have other DNA evidence added to it in the future or more genealogical evidence may come to light to disprove my guess or to add weight to it.
  • If I am right in my guess, I would have found my third Frazer line which was missing and the McPartland Frazer Line which was missing.

4 Replies to “The John Line of the Frazers and Marilee’s DNA”

  1. OK, this is what I know. John Frazer and Sarah Orr are my 2nd great grandparents. I was making assumptions on their parentage based on stuff I found o the web.

    I’n sure the border between Niagara Falls, Ontario and New York was completely permeable back then, and the distances are very short. Lockport is about an hour north of Buffalo and as the name suggests, on the Erie Canal. They had several children, as you listed, and my great grandfather was one of them – Isaac David Frazer. My father had a picture of him with his wife, my great grandmother Louisa Martin, but it is nowhere to be found.

    The cousin removes are off, because there is another layer.. There are three generations of John Stuart – my grandfather, my father and my brother.

    My great grandmother left her husband in New York where he was a lawyer and returned to her Martin father in Buffalo on a canal boat when he was four months old, along with her four year old daughter Olive. I don’t know the reason, but the assumption was that he drank.

    My grandfather never know his father, who remarried and died in Syracuse at the age of 38, per a My Heritage hit. Also, they were estranged from the Lockport Frazers. My Father referred to “Uncle Wash” but I don’t think there was a lot of contact. I know there was another John Stuart who would have been a cousin of my grandfather.

    I was born in Buffalo.. Is it possible that the McPartland connection is from the John line? Hope this helps.

    1. Thanks Marilee,

      I’ll work on fixing the mistakes. I see I skipped one generation of John Stuart Frazer. That makes more sense. Your dad was born one year after mine.

      Joel

  2. I did ask my brother to do a DNA and he said he would. That would give you the Y Chromosome.

    Our branch ran heavily to girls, and there is only one other boy I’m aware of n the
    Isaac line.

    Marilee

    1. Hi Marilee,

      There are two separate tests. One is for YDNA and one is autosomal DNA. The YDNA available at Family Tree DNA gives the male line all up through the Frazers. The autosomal test available at FTDNA, AncestryDNA, MyHeritage, etc. gives all your ancestral lines (but not going back as many generations as the YDNA) which is the same as the test that you took. There is a sale going on, that ends today, so it would be a good time to look into these tests. In general, there are not too many male Frazers around, so that could be the more important test to take if there is a choice between the two.

      Joel

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