From my previous Blog, here is my Hartley DNA/Genealogy Tree:
These are people that match either me by DNA or my father’s 1st cousin Joyce. Except for Paul. I can’t remember where he came from. All these people also have a possible connection to John Hartley and Anne Bracewell who are my possible 5th great-grandparents.
In this Blog, I will look a little more into the Line of Robert Hartley born 1758. I have mentioned Elaine in a few of my previous Blogs on Hartley ThruLines. She helped me with some local geography in the area around Colne. I connected with one of her genealogy trees which helped me on the Mary Lee born 1801 Line above. She is a friend also. And she also appears on my father’s cousin Joyce’s ThruLines:
Karen also shows up there. I have a Paul on my DNA/Genealogy tree also, but don’ t recall who matched him.
Elaine and Joyce
Unfortunately, Elaine’s tree does not show the same connection as the ThruLine:
At the point where ThruLines goes Thomas > Robert > John, Elaine’s tree goes from Thomas > James > Thomas. I’ll take a look to see how these two trees differ.
Here are Albert and family in 1891:
Here is Robert with his family in 1871:
Here is my simple reconstructed tree so far:
In 1861, Thomas Hartley was living at Laneshaw Bridge in Colne:
Here is some more information on Thomas Hartley:
Here is some more information:
This is interesting as the 1841 Census took place before this time. Elaine shows this as the 1841 Census for the family:
Here father Thomas is shown as a weaver rather than a farmer. Back to a weaver at son Thomas’ birth:
Who was the Father of Thomas Hartley?
I have a feeling that Elaine’s answer will be better than Ancestry on this one. Both the ThruLines and Elaine’s tree have a Thomas Hartley born 1788. When I check for the evidence of Thomas Hartley in the ThruLines, I get this:
There is one member tree, but when I look at clive’s tree, it is the same as Elaine’s. Here are some baptisms for Thomas in 1788:
Is this the same person?
At any rate, none of these Thomases are the son of a Robert Hartley. Here are the only Thomases, sons of Roberts I could find:
If there was a connection, it would have to be with the second entry, as I have that Robert married Peggy, a nickname for Margaret. Having said that, I see that the Mary I have on my tree is here:
This was the match with Paul that I cannot remember entering:
For now I’ll leave Elaine off my DNA/Genealogy Chart. I have only showed that she could fit into that chart. It occurs to me that there are many other ways in which we may be related. However, I have shown, at least in a quick overview, that it is possible that her genealogy could connect with John Hartley and Anne Bracewell. As I review this line further, more information may come to light.
Joyce and Karen
On Karen’s tree, she has traced her ancestry back to a Robert Hartley:
Assuming that Karen’s tree is correct, it appears that the Robert in her tree could be the one from the ThruLines. That is, based on the date of hte birth of John Hartley in 1796. However, on closer inspection, I see that Hannah Hartley was from Rawtenstall:
Rawtenstall is several miles from Colne and closer to my Emmet ancestors who lived in Bacup:
Time to check out Karen’s tree. Here is a young Charles Harvey and his family:
Charles’ father Richard was a quarry man. Here is my specific tree in progress:
However, it is Betsy that we are intrerested in. According to the 1911 Census above, the whole family was born in Rossendale. This appears to be a general area including Rawtenstall:
This appears to be the marriage registration index for Betsy Terry:
Here are Betsy’s family in the 1871 Census for Rawtenstarll. Betsy is on the next page:
Hannah Hartley Terry
It appears that Hannah Terry was born in Rutt Lee? The 1881 Census shows that Hannah has passed away:
So Hannah should be born around 1826. According to the 1861 Census, Thomas either had a different wife, or Hannah also went by Nancy:
Here is an interesting entry for a Hannah Hartley:
I should note that I have Howorth in my ancestry. However, Ancestry has this hint:
I see that as a good choice due to this bapstismal entry:
The problem (or good news) is that this brings the family back to Colne. The reason that I like Rough Lee is that it sounds like Rutt Lee from the 1871 Census. It looks like this was a large family. Here they are in Mill Gate, Lower Booths, Rawtenstall:
Actually, this looks like two families. I can’t make out the name of the second family. Lower Booths is to the North of Rawtenstall:
These two additional baptsims from Colne further tie this Rossendale family back to Colne:
I was despairing of finding a connection to Colne, but this appears to be the connection. From the 1841 Census, my guess is that the 28 year old Mary Hartley could be the child of Jane as she is older than John.
Was John Hartley the Son of Robert Hartley?
Assuming the ThruLines from Ancestry, John Hartley the son of Robert Hartley should have been born in 1779. This John Hartley was 45 or older at the time of 1841 Census. That means that he could have been born between and about 1792 and 1796. That means that he would not be a very good match if his age was reported accurately in the 1841 Census.
I do note that John named a potential eldest son Robert. That means that he could have been named for John’s father. Assuming that John’s father was a Robert, I come up with these potential parents for John:
Karen’s ThruLine Hints for John Hartley
The ThruLines hints for Karen and Joyce were more straightforward than the hint for Joyce and Elaine:
Here, I chose the Schofield Family Tree with 24 records on John Hartley:
Here we see Robert and Peggy as John’s parents. Here are some more details from the tree:
Of interest is that he shows John’s father Robert Hartley dying in Haslingden in 1845. Under this scenario, the Robert Hartley who was 80 in 1841 in the house of John Hartley in Rawtenstall must be his father Robert.
Here is more of the Schofield Tree:
Updating the Hartley/Bracewell DNA/Genealogy Tree
As I mention above, it seems possible that Elaine and Karen could be added to the Tree. I’ll put them in to see how it looks. If Elaine and Karen match each other by DNA, then that would also help to solidify the tree. Here I have added Karen:
I still hope that I can figure out who Paul is. Here is Elaine added in:
I checked at least one tree at Ancestry and it showed that Robert above born 1758 did have twins.
Finding Paul
I finally found Paul in this Blog from 2019. I built his tree out from a tree that only had five people in it (but two parents):
His parents were from New Bedford which is where my Hartley ancestors ended up. I found Paul in an interesting way. He was a shared DNA match betwen my father’s cousin Joyce and Kristin:
Because Paul was a shared match with Kritin and Joyce, that meant that his connection went back to 1861 or earlier. When I did the genealogy, it appeared that the connection went back to John Hartley from 1730. Another connection with Sheryl along the Susy Hartley Line of 1755 seemed to confirm the tree. Sheryl was another shared DNA match between Kristin and Joyce. As a result, I put John Hartley and Anne Bracwell into my Ancestry Tree. Fast forward more than four years later and now there are many more DNA connections with possible genealogical connections as shown in Ancestry ThruLines.
I just need to add in Kristin and Joyce, and I should be done with this Blog:
And the tree is not yet finished. I will continue in a later Blog.
Summary and Conclusions
- In this Blog, I looked at ThruLines between my father’s cousin Joyce and Elaine and Karen
- Both Elaine and Karen had possible links to Robert Hartley born 1758 who married Peggy Sellers. Robert appears to be the son of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.
- I hesitated adding Elaine to the tree as she has her own differing tree. Also I had trouble figuring out from the Ancestry evidence how Elaine was added to the ThruLines.
- The mounting evidence seems to be that these many DNA matches support the theory that John Hartley and Ann Bracewell are my ancestors. This is good news, because going on the genealogy alone, it was too difficult to narrow down my Hartley ancestors.
- I then reviewed match Paul who is not on the ThruLines. I had found him in 2019 and also traced his line back to Robert Hartley born 1758 and John Hartley born 1730.
- Because Paul was a shared match between Joyce and Kristen, that meant that he was more likely to have an older Hartley connection.