In my last Blog, I looked at ThruLines as they related to Frazer descendants and I Frazer DNA Project I have been working on. I looked specifically at Joanna’s ThruLines. I am so fortunate that she caught an error in one of her ThruLines (and subsequently passed on when I wrote my last Blog).
Fixing Joanna’s Thruline Error From My Last Blog
Here is the error:
Joanna points out that she cannot match these descendants of Edward Frazer. That is because the Edward Wynn Frazer born 1842 shown above died as a bachelor:
Here is the correct Edward Wynn Frazer – also shown as one of Joanna’s ThruLines, but a generation later:
That means that Joanna’s 2nd great-grandfather and her great-grandfather both had brothers named Edward Wynn Frazer. I had this right in my Frazer Chart (the part I cut off in my previous Blog).
I’ll add in WG to my chart to make it clear:
I have WG in blue as I don’t believe this person has uploaded to Gedmatch. That also changes these numbers:
I had to change everything but the match initials:
This brings CK and DK into line with WG’s results. Now what is confusing is why WG at 18 cM and DK at 7 cM both had a 12% chance of being a 3C, 1R. Perhaps it is based on a curve that goes down and then up again (or the other way around).
Back to Beverly and Frazer ThruLines
Beverly shows up in the Michael Branch of the James Main Line of Frazer’s:
Beverly’s ThruLines shows a lot of potential ancestors. That is because Beverly’s tree is missing ancestors at her grandparent level. Beverly has her paternal grandmother as a Fraser:
However, the line I am following is Beverly’s maternal grandfather (Shown at ThruLines as a Potential Ancestor):
As a potential ancestor, Beverly’s grandfather Fitzgerald is outlined in dotted lines.
Fortunately Beverly’s grandfather is from Kathy’s tree:
Kathy is someone I recognize from the Frazer DNA Project. That gives me confidence in her tree. I don’t see any DNA matches at this level, so I’ll go up a level.
Still, no DNA matches are kicking in. Another tree has joined the group. However, the Fitzgerald in the ThruLines Tree seems to be the same Fitzgerald that I have on my DNA chart.
Beverly’s 2nd Great-Grandfather Archibald Born 1801
Here is the next level up:
Now we see Ancestry’s computers are working hard. They have three trees and two DNA matches to add proof that Archibald is Beverly’s 2nd great-grandfather. I pull down the arrow on the right next to Beverly’s ‘2 DNA Matches’ to get this:
Now I want to see if Ancestry likes the match numbers Beverly has with Bonnie and Judith:
So far, like Joanna, Beverly’s percentages are on the low side. In addition, I know that Gary should be on this Branch also and doesn’t show as a match to Beverly.
This Archibald married Catherine Knott who also shows as Beverly’s 2nd great-grandparent in Thrulines. I checked and Beverly has the same DNA matches at the same levels using the Catherine Knott connection.
Next Up: Beverly’s 3rd Great-Grandfather Michael Frazer
ThruLines show that Archibald had two siblings: Henry P and Margaret Frazer. This siblings had descedants with DNA matches to Beverly. Ancestry is still working hard on this one. I count seven different Ancestry Trees in this visual above. The tree at the top is from Frank. I have Blogged about him previously. However, I don’t have the Henry P Frazer Line on my DNA list. I have been tracking Margaret Frazer as one of my own ancestors, but I haven’t been able to place with certainty where she belongs yet. Ancestry seems to want to put her under Michael Frazer. Another interesting thing is that I have Frank’s line under Michael, but Ancestry doesn’t show that – perhaps because Beverly does not match Frank by DNA. Frank’s tree has him descending from a son of Michael named Fitzgerald Frazer. As an aside, Frank has a DNA match with Joanna who was the topic of my previous Blog. As another aside, Joanna had Margaret Frazer as possibly being a daughter of Michael Frazer in her tree. I asked her to change that to her Archibald Line to see how that effected ThruLines. Her change didn’t make any difference in this ThruLine – at least not yet.
Henry P Frazer
Under the Henry P Frazer Line there are four DNA matches:
These four all have fairly good matches to Beverly. Ancestry uses at 20 cM cutoff for fourth cousin.
Margaret Frazer Born 1794
I notice that this Margaret Branch is listed at the half 4th cousin range. The explanation that comes to mind is that Ancestry thinks that Michael had more than one wife. In the image above, there are three trees represented. Those trees are from Al, Joanna and Keith. Al shows Margaret as the daughter of Michael Frazer and Margaret Stewart:
This could explain the half relationship issue. I thought that I saw a tree that had Michael married to a Mary Stewart. Now I can’t find that. I’ll leave it up to the James Line experts to figure this out. The bottom line is that I think that the half relationships shown for the matches in the Margaret Frazer Branch are wrong. I’ll look at this more in a subsequent Blog.
Here are Beverly’s matches with those descending from the Henry and Margaret Branches:
After the slow start with Bonnie and Judith, these percentages are actually quite high. For example, Mollie’s small 6 cM match is one that would be expected 27% of the time. This particular 6 cM scale tops out at 33%:
I am finding the percentage tables to be very helpful. In the above example, it may not have seemed that 6cM was a good match, but according to Ancestry, it is in this case.
That is of great interest to me as I descend from Margaret also. So, to the extent that we have confidence in Beverly descending from Michael, it would seem that Margaret and her descendants also descend from Michael. That is, assuming also that there are no other connections that we missed. One of the main connections could be through McMaster. However, if Beverly has no McMaster connections, then it would seem more likely that Margaret descends from Michael Frazer.
I’m sure I’ll be returning to the Margaret Frazer topic. Members of my family match Beverly’s match Keith and I wrote a Blog about that here. However, our families’ primary match with Keith appears to be through a closer McMaster Line.
Up To James Frazer of Clerragh
Ah yes, good old Clerragh. Here is Cleragh:
My Frazer’s from the Archibald Line lived in Derrycashel. The next Townland to the North.
Beverly has four DNA matches with descendants believed to be from the Archibald Frazer Branch:
This connection goes quite far out:
Beverly’s 5th cousin once removed connection with Brittney goes beyond Ancestry’s probability chart.
Beverly’s Match Probability Chart
The numbers I am most interested in are the percentages. Beverly started out with low percentages with her third cousins Bonnie and Judith. Those percentages went up going one generation back to descendants of Henry P and Margaret who are believed to be children of Michael. Beverly then gets top scores with other matching at James Frazer born about 1720. This is a sort of inverse relationship. One would think that the closer relatives would be more certain, but this seems to show the further away the relationships go with Beverly, the more certain they are.
Of course, this is all based on the genealogy. If we had decided that Henry P and Margaret had a different father, say Archibald born 1751, then this chart would support that conclusion also.
Michael Line Genealogy
It appears that if I can show a genealogical connection to Michael for Henry Patrick’s descendants or between Michael and Beverly through Archibald born 1801, then that should give a lot of weight for Margaret Frazer being in the Michael Branch.
Is Henry P Frazer the Same as Patrick Frazer?
WE shows he descends from Henry P Frazer. Other trees show a Patrick Frazer. Are these two the same? ThruLines makes the connection.
Here is the tree for WE and RB:
Wejum’s tree stops at Henry P:
Perhaps there is some circumstantial evidence in Henry P’s daughter Margaret Stewart Frazer. Michael’s wife was Margaret Stewart.
Judith’s tree picks up where Wejum’s left off:
It looks like Judith made the connection. Judith probably is using this record:
Michael from our Frazer DNA group (Archibald Line) provided a Parish Register Record from Eastersnow which showed a Michael and Margaret Frazer giving birth to a Patrick late in 1803. There are some more records for Patrick:
If this was the same Patrick, then he would have been a young father of 17. Boyle is about 3-1/2 miles from Eastersnow.
Again, if this is the same Patrick, he would now be 19.
Now the question is whether Jane Lacy and Jane Leary are the same person, or are these two separate couples? Did Jane Leary die and Patrick married Jane Lacy? These births are all in the same Parish.
This Pat and Jane are now in Aghrafinigan if my records are lined up correctly – in the Parish of Ardcarne. Compare this with Joanna’s Tree:
Joanna’s tree references Find a Grave:
In addition, Joanna has this Patrick:
Joanna’s older Patrick probably accounts for the first three births above as an older dad.
Back to Margaret. My point is that the Margaret Stuart born in 1834 in Aghrafinigan and baptized in Ardcarn Parish may be the same person in Wejum’s tree.
Another interesting point is that Wejum has Margaret’s mother as Jane M Frazer. Joanna has Henry Patrick’s wife as Jane Mostyn:
The date looks good. I’m not sure if the location is perfect. More about that later in the Blog.
More on Patrick and Jane Frazer
Here is the family in 1850 in Martinsburg, New York:
All children show as born in New York. I am questioning that is not correct. Later in the Blog I prefer the 1855 Census which shows Margaret born in Ireland.
While I’m In Martinsburg
There were other Irish Frazer’s in Martinsburg. I wrote a Blog mentioning Martinsburg in 2015. Also living in Martinsburg according to the 1855 Census were:
- Mary Frazer daughter of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson – married to William Johnston
- Ann Frazer, younger daughter of Mary above married John Hazard 1824 Ardcarn
- Richard Frazer married to Ellen Hassard or Hazard. Richard was baptized at Ardcarn in 1830 and was the brother of my 2nd great-grandfather George Frazer
As Patrick appears to be the first Frazer in Martinsburg, he perhaps lead the way for the other Ardcarn Parish Frazers.
Biography of George H Frazer
There is an 1895 biography of George H Frazer in a publication called Commemorative biographical record of the upper Wisconsin counties of Waupaca, Portage, Wood, Marathon, Lincoln, Oneida, Vilas, Langlade and Shawano. Here is part of that biography:
This Biography gives a lot of detailed information about the Henry P Frazer family and confirms that Jane was indeed Jane Mostyn (Moyston in this biography). This also places the Frazer family in New York City in 1844. That means that this may be the same Frazer family in Ward 15 of New York City in 1840:
A Proposed Patrick Frazer Family History
My presumption is that the Patrick Frazer of 1850 Martinsburg, NY was born in 1803 in Eastersnow Parish to Michael Frazer and Margaret Stewart. He married a Jane probably Mostyn probably in 1829 when he was about 25. This is from a marriage licence index from Killala and Achonry which survived the destruction of Irish records:
This couple had children. One that was documented was Margaret Stuart Frazer. Margaret was presumably named after her mother Margaret Stuart. Margaret’s gravestone has a birthdate of:
Seven days after Margaret’s birth, she was baptized at the Ardcarn Church in County Roscommon, Ireland. Sometime between 1834 and probably 1840, the Patrick Frazer family moved to New York City. In 1846, the Frazer family moved to Martinsburg, New York. In 1855 or soon after, Patrick moved to Saginaw, Michigan where he went by Henry:
Henry was listed as ‘At Home’ in the 1870 Census which meant that he wasn’t working. By this time, their daughter Isabella was still living with them. Now even the parents say they were born in New York.
Patrick (or Henry P on his grave stone) died in Saginaw in 1872:
I had this mostly figured out in 2015, but I hadn’t fleshed out many of the details. For example, I had mentioned the possibility of two Patricks in 2015. Now, it would seem that this would have to have been the case as Patrick apparently first married in 1829.
Three Generations of Frazers in Martinsburg
Here are three generations of Frazers in Martinsburg, New York:
However, note that Mary, Ann and Patrick were about the same age.
Here is Martinsburg:
Martinsburg is fairly remote, so I don’t think it was just coincidence that all these Frazers lived there at one time.
Pro’s and Con’s of Henry P Frazer Being Patrick Frazer of Ardcarn Parish, Roscommon
- The dates line up
- Margaret Stewart Frazer, daughter of Patrick and Jane appears to be named for Patrick’s mother Margaret Stewart.
- This Margaret seems to be well-documented in the Ardcarn Parish records and in the US.
- The birth date on Margaret’s cemetery stone is very close to the Ardcarn baptism date.
- Henry P. went by Patrick in his early US Census records.
- The Patrick Frazer family appears in Martinsburg with other Frazer families and related Frazer families who originated from Ardcarn Parish, Roscommon.
- I have not seen US records for Henry Patrick Frazer which places him in a specific place in Ireland.
- The marriage of Patrick Frazer to Jane Mostyn was in the Diocese of Killala and Achonry which would be to the Northwest of where many of the Frazer’s lived at the time. Most of the Frazer marriages took place in the Dioces of Elphin. However, this may have refected where Jane Mostyn lived.
Step 2: Beverly’s Genealogy
I feel that I have created a good argument for the Patrick Frazer Branch above. It doesn’t answer all the question, but the story holds together. Next, let’s see if the good DNA matches between Beverly and the Patrick Frazer Branch are supported by Beverly’s link to Michael Frazer. The presumption has been that Beverly does descend from Michael Frazer and Margaret Stewart.
Building a Tree for Beverly
Above, Beverly’s tree has been pieced together, so I’ll create a private one to see if I come up with the same results that Ancestry came up with. The goal is to either connect Beverly to Michael Frazer or to find some evidence that shows that she should not connect with him. It looks like I had already started a tree a few years ago. I just added a bit now:
One important document is Fitzgerald’s wedding record from 1874:
This give’s Fitzgerald’s age as 30 and his parents as Archibald and Catherine. So far, this is vague evidence. Connaught is quite large and Archibald and Catherine are fairly common names. At this point, I am borrowing on other’s research. Here is the 1851 Census from Ontario:
This appears to show Fitzgerald along with his parents and siblings when he was 10. These names give a lot of circumstantial evidence:
We have a lot of clues here. We have seen what appears to be the Wynne name before. William Wynne may have been named for Archibald’s doctor cousin Wynne who died in Jamaica at a young age. I have already discussed Margaret Stewart as the wife of Michael Frazer. Then there is a Michael Frazer who could have been named for Archibald’s father.
In 1851, this family was in this area of Ontario:
I have also circled Buffalo for my own reference. The youngest, Jane, was 6 and born in Ireland if the 1851 Census is right. That would mean that the family left Ireland between 1845 and 1851.
The Archibald Frazer Family in Arthur, Ontario, 1861
The census shows that between 1851 and 1861, the Frazer families were living in log houses. The 1861 Census is a bit difficult to interpret and read:
In 10 years, the family has grown from 8 to 11. Two Fraser children were born in Canada and there is a person with the last name Reid. This child could have been a daughter (or sister) of William’s wife Rachel. Catherine is now 10 years younger, or Archibald remarried. Here is a larger view of the names:
Archibald and Catherine Back In County Roscommon
This would be the marriage record for Archibald and Catherine Knott:
Catherine was from Kilmactranny in County Sligo and Ardcarn is the Parish to the South but in County Roscommon. Just to confuse things, there was another Archibald Frazer who married a Catherine Parker around this place and time.
Here are records for children of Archibald and Catherine.
This birth is apparently to Catherine Parker:
This happens in Kilmactranny Parish before the marriage of Catherine Knott.
Here is a similar record:
Next is Catherine:
The question here is which Catherine is which. Is the mother Catherine Parker or Knott? Also does this represent two children named Catherine or the same one?
Here is William:
Just to keep things confusing:
If I ignore William, I do see that there is now James – probably born late in 1836.
My understanding is that these last two were born to sons of Catherine Parker. That means that the James born in 1836 could have been the son of Catherine Knott. That seems to be the last record I have of Catherine Knott in the Ardcarn Parish area. After that, the records refer to Catherine Parker’s family.
The Irish records I have for Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott are scanty and few. But they don’t contradict the records of the Archibald and Catherine family from Wellington County, Ontario.
Back to the Ontario Archibald and Catherine Frazer Family
Here is Michael in 1871 living in Peel:
I like how the Census clarifies that it is only for the living. Michael is a fairly unique Frazer name in Ontario at the time, so is easier than some to track. Michael is also interesting as a major branch of DNA-tested Frazers:
Some Evidence from Jane Frazer
Here is the connection back to Catherine ‘Nott’:
For me, this record seals the deal. I now have confidence that the Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott of Ardcarn and Kilmactranny Parishes are the same as the Archibald and Catherine of Wellington County, Ontario. If I can’t find the original records at Ancestry, sometimes I try FamilySearch:
This shows that Jane ‘Fraser’ was born in Ireland and that her mother was Catherine Nott. I was confused by Jane’s father until I looked down to the line below where he looks to be Arch. Frazer. Here is how FamilySearch has the transcription:
It looks like Ancestry had a different record or interpreted this one correctly somehow.
Where Are We? Sum It Up
- I corrected my last Blog where one of the ThruLines was inaccurate for Joanna. Joanna is on a parallel Line to Beverly
- Next, I looked at Beverly’s ThruLines. They can be best summed up in this Chart:
- I noted that the percentages for both the Henry Patrick and Margaret Branches were good. I reasoned that if I could show by genealogy that the Henry Patrick Line and Beverly’s Line descended from Michael Frazer born 1764, then Margaret should also descend from Michael. This is using a sort of double triangulation based on both DNA and genealogy.
- I proved to my satisfaction that the Henry Patrick of Martinsburg, NY and Saginaw, Michigan was the same as the Patrick born to Michael Frazer born 1764. I then proved to myself that Beverly’s Ontario Line descended from Archibald born about 1801, also the son of Michael Frazer.
That means that I have established DNA connections as follows:
I left out some of the connections, but this is the main idea. The Margaret Branch is in gray or green. RW is from the Henry Patrick Branch. There were two other matches there but it was easiest to show RW’s descent from Patrick.
More Genealogy – Patrick Henry Line
The Patrick Henry Line is on the right in the chart above. Here is a portion of Beverly’s ThruLines:
I have established at least that George Henry Frazer descends from Michael Frazer. What about Mary Gordinier? I don’t recall seeing her name in the 1895 Biography for George H Frazer. I could start from Wejum and work my way up, or start with Mary. I looked again at the 1895 Biography and found Mary at the column split:
Here is Mary in 1855:
She appears to have been born in ‘Green’. There is a Greene, NY, but I don’t know if this is the same place. The 1855 Census shows that Margaret [Stewart] Frazer was born in Ireland. This Census also shows that the family left Ireland on the early side – between 1835 and 1837. This seems to be enough proof to connect Mary on the top side of Wejum’s Tree. Here is a photo of Mary that someone saved to their tree:
Technically, the ThruLines should show her as Mary Frazer, not Mary Gordinier. Gordinier was actually the name of Mary’s second husband. Wejum descends from Jane Isabella Mushgrove Johnson who was a daughter of Mary and her first husband John Mushgrove. That Jane would be the Jennie in the 1895 Biography.
More Genealogy – Margaret Frazer Line
I don’t believe that it is possible to show through genealogy alone that Margaret Frazer was the daughter of Michael Frazer. That is what I’m trying to show by the DNA and the genealogy for the other Michael branches. However, I’ll strart looking at the lines below Margaret.
Keith and Fanny McMaster
I am a match with Keith – presumably on his McMaster side. I have Keith’s genealogy already on my McMaster web pages:
This shows Keith’s line of descent from James McMaster, but James married Fanny McMaster the daughter of Margaret Frazer.
At this point, I’d like to shut down this Blog and continue later on the Margaret Line as that is a separate issue from Beverly’s ThruLines. I don’t want to take away from the interesting conclusions for Beverly’s genealogy and the genealogy of her other Michael Branch descendants.
Summary and Conclusions
- ThruLines is a great combination of genealogy and DNA
- Ancestry may stitch together trees for the genealogy part. These trees need to be checked for accuracy.
- ThruLines showed that Beverly descends from Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott. ThruLines show that Archibald had a younger brother Henry Patrick whose descendants match Beverly by DNA.
- I was able to convincingly show through genealogy that the Archibald and Patrick Frazer Lines were accurate as shown in ThruLines.
- A key person in Beverly’s Irish-Canadian genealogy was her 2nd great-Aunt, Jane Frazer. Jane’s Ontario marriage record shows her mother as Catherine ‘Nott’. That links Jane’s parents to the Ardcarn and Kilmactranny Parishes on the border of Counties Roscommon and Sligo in Ireland.
- A key person in the Patrick Frazer Line was his daughter Margaret Stuart Frazer. She had the name of her paternal grandmother Margaret Stuart. I have an Irish baptismal record for her as well as for her father.
- Beverly also matches the DNA of descendants of a Margaret Frazer Line. Margaret was born in the late 1700’s so the birth records do not appear to exist for her. I descend from this line as well as others and would like to continue to look at this line in a subsequent Blog. The goal is to try to show that Margaret also is the daughter of Michael Frazer born about 1764.