Category: Hartley

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Visual Phasing Six Siblings with the Fox Spreadsheet: Part 16: Chromosome 16

The last two Chromosomes (13 and 14) went well. We will see what is in store for Chromosome 15. Actually, I see that I have been working on Chromosome 16, so I’ll go with that.

Chromosome 16

After a break with the two easy Chromosomes, it looks like I am back to a bit of a challenge:

I have two difficult areas, signified by lack of siblings’ initials.

Cousin Matches – the Easy Way Out

It is my hope that cousin matches will define some of the confusing crossover areas. I’ll start with Hartley cousin Maury:

Maury shows that Jim has a crossover at 72.3 in the second problem area.

 

Once I saw that crossover, it appeared that there was only one other crossover (for S). This is what I get:

Back to Maury

That is what I get out of Maury’s match. I note that the end of Maury’s first match with Lori is at 20.1M and the end of the other matches is at 21.1, so there is a possible crossover for Lori there. I’ll hold off on that for now until I find other information.

Matches with Rathfelder cousin Anita fill in some maternal DNA:

Matches with Lentz cousin Joan give the other side of the maternal coin:

Figuring Out the Two Missing Crossovers with a Detailed Analysis

The first step is to look at the V & H comparison at Gedmatch full resolution:

This gives the positions of the crossovers at 20.4 and 21.6.

The V & L comparison has two very close changes:

This is because Jim (V) and Lori go from NIR and quickly to an FIR with a small FIR in the middle.

Here are the results:

The FD and DL are for the crossover for Joel (D) that I already have. I interpret the other matches to mean that there is a close double crossover for Jim (V). One is at 20.3 and the other is at about 21M.

Expanding Around the Double V Crossover

My next strategy is to work around Jim (V). This is because I’m not totally sure of the two crossovers.

I’ll use the gedmatch sibling comparisons to expand the DNA more:

At this point, I see that Jim (V) and Heidi are NIR in the larger missing segment above. That means that Jim needs to be Hartley /Rathfelder there which agrees with the proposed double crossover for Jim (V).

I don’t know how to fill in the little V-V segment. This would have to be either Frazer/Rathfelder or Hartley/Lentz. If it was Hartley/Lentz, then Jim would be FIR with Jon, Joel and Sharon in that little segment.

Here is Jim and Jon:

Here’s Jim and Joel:

Here’s JIma and Sharon:

The question is: Is there a FIR between about 20.8 and 21.2M? I can’t tell, but I’ll say there is:

 

Basically, it is not a big deal either way, so it’s a judgement call.

Here’s my crossover list:

After working the DNA a bit, I get this:

This comparison between the Segment Map and the Gedmatch sibling chart confirms Chromosome 16

Summary and Conclusions

  • Once the crossovers are accurately identified, it is fairly easy to solve the Chromosome.
  • Lori and Joel got a full dose of Hartley. Heidi got a full dose of Frazer.
  • There is a small segment of Rathfelder DNA missing.

 

 

 

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A Large MyHeritage DNA Match That is Small at AncestryDNA

I recently had a match at MyHeritage that was of pretty good size.

My DNA Match with Kathleen

Kathleen is from Australia. That is good news for me. My father has Hartley and Frazer ancestors. Hartley’s have ancestors from Colonial Massachusetts and more recently from Lancashire, England. If I match on the Hartley side with someone from Australia, that most likely will filter out the Colonial Massachusetts ancestors on my Hartley side and focus on the Lancashire side.

Here is what my DNA match with Kathleen looks like at MyHeritage:

Kathleen at AncestryDNA

This is how Kathleen and I match at AncestryDNA:

This is quite a difference. Kathleen has gone from 57.2 cM at MyHeritage to 8.2 cM at AncestryDNA. Which one is right?

I tend to like the AncestryDNA estimates. They use a process that strips away some of the DNA matches that they consider less than significant.

Kathleen at Gedmatch

Gedmatch has a DNA matching number in the middle of AncestryDNA and MyHeritage:

However, a common ancestor of 4.6 generations would be an estimated third cousin once removed, similar to the MyHeritage estimate. I think that AncestryDNA’s estimate of 5th to 8th cousin is more accurate.

Where is the Common Ancestor for Kathleen and Me?

Here is one of Kathleen’s ancestors,  Emma Walker born 1806 from Haslingdon in orange:

I have an ancestor from Goodshaw to the NE of Haslingdon who was Edmund Emmet, born in 1759. These places were fairly close. If Edmund Emmet was our common ancestor, that would be on the order of 5th cousins. I am thinking that the common ancestor would likely be at least another generation out – on the order of 6th cousins. Of course, we don’t know all our ancestors, so there are other possibilities. This is just one of the more likely possibilities.

Other Considerations

Kathleen and I have these common matches according to Gedmatch:

Numbers 4-6 include my father’s cousin and his two daughters. Some others have UK or NZ emails. #1 is Kathleen matching with me. The fact that I have my father’s cousin in this comparison insures that my match with Kathleen is along my Hartley grandparent line.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I have found from experience that the AncestryDNA estimates as to relationships based on DNA matching is fairly accurate.
  • MyHeritage uses some matches under Gedmatch’s threshold of 7 cM making their overall DNA match quite high.
  • When there is what looks to be a significant DNA match, but a difficult genealogical connection, I like to keep in mind that the relationship could be further out than it seems. This is the lesson in this case where we can compare AncestryDNA, MyHeritage and Gedmatch. However, we don’t always have the luxury of having these three comparisons.

 

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My WWI Relatives

I recently had a question from my sister about any of our relatives who may have served in World War I. There are possibilities from 3 out of 4 of our lines. My mother’s father came to the US by jumping ship i 1916, so it appears that he was under the radar as far as the military.

Frazer

My grandmother’s only brother George William Frazer served in WWI:

This is an application for a headstone marker. This gives an idea of the type of work George did, but not a lot of details other than he received a Victory medal.

Hartley

I would think that with all the Hartley’s born in Rochester, that one or more must have served in WWI.

Daniel Emmet Hartley

Daniel was 32 when he registered for the Draft:

In 1918, Daniel had three children.

James Hartley Born 1891

My understanding is that James did not serve as he was married.

My father was born the following February.

Greenwood Hartley Born 1897

Here is a photo submitted by cousin Beth:

Here is some basic information on his service:

Greenwood sailed out of Hoboken on November 1917:

Greenwood returned on the Ship Patricia from Brest, France back to Hoboken:

It looks like he was in a “colored” battalion.

I assume that Greenwood saw some fighting in Europe.

Henry Bradford Hartley Born 1900

The second page of this Registration says “No certificate given”. I’m not sure what that means. I didn’t see any record of his service. The other Hartley brothers would have been too young in WWI to serve.

Lentz

My mother’s mother’s family was Lentz.

William Nicholson Lentz Born 1892

William was married with two children at the time of his 1917 Draft Registration.

 

Stanley Lentz Born 1894

Stanley was single on June 15, 1917 and had no claim on a draft exemption. However,

On January 1920, Stanley had a daughter who was 2 years, three months old. That would mean that she was born about October of 1917. Interesting, if I have this right. Here is a marriage record for Stanley in New York City.

I don’t think that Stanley served in WWI, but I am a little mixed up as to where he was in 1920. I think he was the one in the 1920 Census as he was also at 1346 East Eyre St, Philadelphia. Interesting.

Summary

It looks like I have two relatives who served in WWI. One was my grandmother’s brother and the other was my grandfather’s brother. It would be interesting to learn more about what they did in WWI.

 

 

 

 

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Visual Phasing Six Siblings with the Fox Spreadsheet: Part 4 – Chromosome 3

I’m ready to start visual phasing of Chromosome 3.

I’ll start with some rough crossover lines:

I try to look at the crossovers and names at the same time to make sure I have enough crossovers. One unusual thing is that on the right hand side, I have five crossovers for Jon (F) in relatively close proximity.

Putting Cousins on the Map

Next I look at the All Cousins function on the Fox Spreadsheet. The first best candidate is James, my father’s cousin. I’ll put some Hartley paternal grandfather DNA in the slots where James matches my family.

Here’s something I want to keep on top of. The right hand side of the matches (in blue) is wandering on each side of a crossover line. I need to start my crossover spreadsheet to keep track of where these crossovers are.

This shows that the Jim (V) crossover is at 39.8 and the Hartley cousin match goes up to 38.6, so we are OK to put Hartley up to the Jim crossover.

The three paternal crossovers on the left fell right into the spots that I had predicted, so I’m off to a good start.

Maternal Cousin Carolyn

Carolyn matches our family on our Lentz grandparent side. Here is my grandmother, speaking of Lentz:

She was born in 1900.

I started mapping Lentz DNA, but ran into a question on the right hand side of Chromosome 3:

Actually I may all right, as I show a crossover for Joel and Sharon on the very right and that is consistent with our match with Carolyn. Here is what Gedmatch -shows for Carolyn:

The right-hand crossovers for Sharon and Joel are really close. Sharon is at 195.80 and Joel’s crossover is at 195.82. I can go with these numbers, but I’ll have to change the crossover order. It also look like, from Gedmatch, that Jon has a crossover at 186M. I’ll write this into my spreadsheet:

Here is how the right hand side of Chromosome 3 mapped out:

Checking out the position numbers at Gedmatch helped me find the crossover for Jon (F).

This is what I get from looking at the first two cousin matches:

Rathfelder Line Cousin Inese

Inese is from Latvia. Here are her matches with my family:

Inese is picking up maternal crossovers for Joel and Lori:

Inese’s matches do not span the crossovers but the two crossovers are implied by the crossover lines above.

Joyce – Another Hartley Match

Here I add in some more orange Hartley based on Joyce’s matches:

Emily – A Frazer Side Match

Here the paternal Frazer match goes through a Lori crossover. That means Lori’s first crossover must be maternal.

I checked a few more cousins and came up with this:

What’s Next? Gedmatch Comparisons

Next, it would make sense to look at the FIRs at Gedmatch and the no-match sibling comparisons, to fill in some blanks above. I did that plus I extended the DNA to the easy looking crossovers. That means the crossovers I wasn’t expecting problems with.

I filled in all but this area on the right hand side of Chromosome 3:

This looks right for Jon as he has two crossovers in this area. However, I have none. I need to add one in there. At the top of the image above, it shows that the comparison between Heidi and Joel (D) shows no match on either side of the Chromosome in that little segment. That means that I would be Frazer (blue) and Lentz (green). That means that my crossover should be near Jon’s first F.

I need to look around 160.9 for my crossover.

This could be it at 156.7:

Here’s some more information from Gedmatch:

The first circled match is my match with Heidi and the next two circled matches are between me and Lori and Jim. I’ll call my crossover 156.2.

Here, I’ve added my paternal crossover:

Placing Jon’s Two Sequential Crossovers in the Right Order

Next, I’m curious as to Jon’s (F) two crossovers. Which is maternal and which is paternal? I ran Jon against 5 siblings and two maternal first cousins and got this:

#6 is Cousin Cindy. My guess is that her match is the maternal crossover for Jon (F). This is at 165.7M which is where I had Jon’s second crossover:

Of course, that makes Jon’s preceding crossover at 160.9M paternal:

Comparing My Work to Gedmatch with the Segment Map

I don’t see any obvious errors. The places on the right that are small and yellow indicate small HIR matches that didn’t show as blue matches on the left because the resolution was not low enough. Here is one example:

That was relatively painless. I tried to be careful with my work, so I wouldn’t have to fix a lot of things later.

The Final Result

I forgot to show my results:

 

This is the first time my brother Jim’s Chromosome 3 has been phased. I don’t think that I had phased Lori before on the Chromosome either. This time, Jim and Lori have full paternal side Frazer Chromosomes. That’s good for the Frazer DNA Project I am working on. Between the six siblings, there is full coverage for all the grandparents. Without Jim and Lori in the mix, I would be missing a lot of Frazer DNA on Chromosome 3.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I tried to be more methodical with my work this time and plan ahead for areas that could cause problems
  • One problem area is nailing down crossovers that are near other crossovers. A spreadsheet giving the position number of the crossovers helps.
  • I used a first cousin maternal match to find a maternal crossover for Jon. This was necessary because Jon had two crossovers in a row.
  • As in all Chromosome Maps, this information should be helpful in finding matches along one of four grandparent lines.
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Visual Phasing Six Siblings with the Fox Spreadsheet: Part 3 – Chromosome 2

In Part 1, I downloaded the Steven Fox Spreadsheet and built up the information for six siblings and 17 cousins. Then I did the visual phasing on the X Chromosome. In Part 2, I finished Chromosome 1 for 6 siblings, with a heavy dependence on cousin matches.

Visual Phasing Chromosome 2

Here are the 15 comparisons for my six siblings. There are 5, 4, 3, 2, then 1 comparison. I think that is where the 15 comes from.

I don’t see too many odd things here.

Here I added a bunch of crossovers. I don’t know if it is better to put in too few and add later or too many and erase later. I’m not too worried if I have them perfect as I will be checking them against cousin matches.

I’ll start with cousin Maury. I think that’s how his name is spelled. Where we match represents the DNA I got from my paternal Hartley grandfather:

I need to stick the blue matches above for Jim, Joel, Heidi and Lori. I see one crossover for Heidi where her Hartley DNA stops and above and below her, Jim and Lori’s Hartley DNA continues on to the right. To the right of Heidi’s crossover, the only other choice on the paternal side is Frazer, so I’ll add that in.

I have the first crossover identified. It is for Heidi, it is paternal and it is at position 53.5M. I’ll put this into a spreadsheet as it is helpful information to have if you ever do raw data phasing or if you want to add your grandparents to Gedmatch:

[The M for Heidi is wrong. It should be a P.]

I could also infer that the segments above and below the Hartley matches would be Frazer matches. I’ll add those now. If I’m wrong, I can correct them later. However, again, on the paternal side, there are two choices from where the DNA came from.

Adding a Maternal Cousin Match to Chromosome 2

Cousin Anita is a Rathfelder cousin.

It looks like there are few crossovers here. However, the representations of where the relative positions of the matches are can be misleading. I think that I will try assign as many crossovers as I can. Here is what I get from Anita’s matches:

Here is a summary of the crossovers from the first two cousin matches:

I didn’t get a position number for Jim’s crossover as they are not displaying correctly on the spreadsheet.

Next, Check the Gedmatch Comparisons

Here is one issue I see right away:

In the Gedmatch comparison between Heidi and Lori, there is a no match area between Segment H and F in red. The answer appears to be that Heidi has an additional crossover in the area of the L and F maternal crossovers at 103 and 105M. The Heidi crossover should be at about 104, based on the Heidi and Jim (V) comparison:

In Lori’s crossover, she went from Rathfelder to Lentz. In order for Heidi and Lori to continue not matching, Heidi needs to change from Lentz to Rathfelder.

The above gedmatch comparison is Lori compared to Heidi. Between crossovers L and H there is a very short segment where Lori and Heidi are HIR. They don’t match H to L. Then L to H they match on Lentz (green) only. Then Heidi and Lori go back quickly to not matching again.

Cousin Joyce on the Hartley Side

Cousin Joyce has some Hartley segments for the left side of my family’s Chromosome 2:

These matches start at about zero and go to 9M. That is at about the third vertical line above (crossover) belonging to D who is me (Joel). This causes a problem as it goes through Sharon’s crossover. When I look more closely, I see that Sharon’s crossover is at 9M and mine is at 12M:

That means I have to bring back the orange one small segment:

 

While I was working on this, I made a guess that I (D) had a paternal crossover right after Sharon. I put this into my spreadsheet:

At 7M, I have a crossover for Lori, but I don’t know if it is maternal or paternal yet. I also looked up the last crossover position for Jim at gedmatch.

It looks like Joyce could help clean up the right side of Chromosome 2:

The bottom blue bar is for Heidi and it shows her crossover. Heidi’s crossover is at 226M. Note that I show three crossovers in a row above, but only have two initials. I’ll say that the extra crossover is for Heidi:

The circled areas are in the comparison of Jim (V) to Heidi and Jon (F) to Heidi. Heidi is common in both. I had mentioned in a previous Blog that a change from no match to FIR or from FIR to no match could indicate a crossover for a person on a paternal and maternal side in close succession. That appears to be the case here.

The spreadsheet is important, because the visual part of visual phasing can throw you off. That means that the visuals don’t always line up well, so it is important to depend on the position numbers. This is especially important where the crossovers are close together.

Here are Heidi’s crossovers on the right:

 

This creates another problem as Heidi’s Lent in Green has to get back to purple Rathfelder on the left, and I don’t have any crossovers for Heidi between the two. This means that either Heidi doesn’t have a crossover on the left or she needs another in the middle. Confused? You bet I am. I’ll worry about this later.

Deciphering the Right End of Chromosome 2 – Paternal Side

Hartley cousin Beth helps figure out the right hand side of the Chromosome. Ends of Chromosomes can be difficult to interpret.

Lori’s match is off by about one half million positions from the other three matches. I don’t know if that is significant. It may indicate a crossover that I don’t have.

Here is how I started to fill in the right hand side of Chromosome 2:

  • JIm’s crossover was on the maternal side, so I filled in the rest of his Hartley DNA.
  • I show Sharon with a crossover. If she has one, it needs to be on the paternal side.
  • This leaves Lori. If her match with Beth is right, then Lori needs another crossover – probably at 239M.

Here is Lori’s crossover:

This shows that Lori’s crossover is right before Jim’s.

Tiny Segments at the Chromosome Ends Are Not That Important

First, thanks Beth. The tiny segments at the end for Sharon and Jim are not that important in practice. However, if you want to fill out your Chromosome Maps it is fun to figure them out. Note Sharon’s small Hartley segment at the right end. This does not show up on the cousin match. It is just too small. If I lowered the thresholds at Gedmatch, it should show.

As my mom would say, “So there”.

Paul’s Frazer DNA

Here I just show the right side of Chromosome 2, where Paul matches my brother and three sisters:

These segments don’t align well, but the numbers show that they are pretty close to each other vertically.

 

I filled in the Frazer segments and Hartley segments where Paul didn’t match:

Jim likely has a paternal crossover at V. He needs one to match the paternal Frazer at the left.

Cousin Linda’s Maternal Lentz Matches

Linda points out two crossovers on the maternal side:

These are at 222M for me and 228M for Heidi:

I already had Heidi’s crossover listed, but here is mine added.

Gedmatch Sibling Pair Comparisons and Reconciliations

Next, I want to compare my Sibling Chromosome Map with what Gedmatch shows:

For example the comparison between Sharon and Lori shows that they have an FIR that means that Sharon should have Lentz DNA on her maternal side. Lori has two crossovers in a row, so the second should be Frazer to Hartley. Because I am looking for a crossover for Heidi, somewhere in the middle, I’ll fill in the other siblings, but not Heidi:

As I fill in the blanks, I see that I have more problems:

 

  • Looks like Jim (V) needs another crossover. I believe that should be near the third V above.
  • Jon has two crossovers, but if I put in Rathfelder in the blank area on Jon’s maternal side, that would solve that.
  • Sharon needs to go from Rathfelder (purple) to Lentz (green) but has no crossover.
  • Heidi has the same issue.
  • Lori has a crossover but no apparent need for one. By looking at the Gedmatch comparisons, the L should be an H and S. This should solve the above two problems.

Jim’s Double V

Here Jim has crossovers on the maternal and paternal side:

These don’t line up that great visually. These two Jim Crossovers are at 191 and 192. I don’t know which crossover is maternal and which is paternal at this point.

Replacing One Lori Crossover with One Sharon and One Heidi Crossover (Or How to Solve Two Problems by Correcting One Crossover)

The problem in doing this is, which Crossover goes first? Here is the Lori Crossover I want to replace:

This shows where they both match with me (D). The Sharon crossover is at 173M and the Heidi crossover is at 172M, so Heidi goes first.

My list of crossovers is getting quite long:

These two crossovers need to be on the maternal side to make the map work. I don’t know if this is right, but it seemed to work:

Some Eye Excercise

This is a side by view of what it is from Gedmatch versus what I came up using the Fox Spreadsheet. I think they agree. All I have to do now is fill in Jim’s double crossover and some small segments on the left hand side of the Chromosome.

Jim’s Double Crossover

This should be easy.

In the little gap between 191 and 192M, Jim has no match with Jon (F), Sharon and Lori.

Jon, Sharon and Lori have a blue/purple combination, so I’ll give Jim a no-matching orange/green combo:

If everything else is right, this just falls into place.

The Left Side of Chromosome 2

This looks really confusing. I have five crossovers in short succession and one not assigned. I could give up now, but I would like to finish this Chromosome and move on to 3-22. First, I took out the unassigned crossover.

I’ve circled all the cases where there is a no match going to an FIR or FIR going to a no match. They include three V’s, three F’s, three H’s and three L’s. I think that means that I need to add an F and H crossover to what I already have. That includes all six siblings. The other question is whether these are all double crossovers. If that is the case, then I could need to add up to five crossovers.

I can start by filling in some paternal side in the first segment:

Next, I need to make use of my spreadsheet.

These are the crossovers I have already. Next, I’ll look for some more position numbers.

Here Jon has a 10.4 crossover. It seems to line up well with his other matches.

Jim and Heidi match here:

That looks to be about the place of Heidi’s crossover.

I’ll start filling out the map based on the above, but I feel like there is at least one double crossover somewhere:

I did a quick segment map check:

The resolution is off, but it looks to be not too bad a comparison.

Could This Be the Map?

I think it looks good for a wrap.

Comparing Chromosome 2 with Previous Analysis

Here is what M MacNeill did for me previously:

This was for three siblings. The interesting par is that this shows DNA that was missing on my father’s side. My mom has been tested, so is missing no DNA. DNA is missing for my paternal grandmother on both ends. DNA is missing for my paternal grandfather in the middle of Chromosome 2.

Now no Hartley DNA is missing (paternal grandfather). Also no paternal grandmother is missing thanks to Jon. He has a full Chromosome 2 of paternal grandmother. This is interesting because Jon also has a full Chromosome 1 of Frazer (paternal grandmother). That’s a lot of Frazer. Let’s say Jon was trying to prove he was related to a Hartley who had huge segments of Hartley DNA on Chromosomes 1 and 2 but nowhere else. Jon would show that he would not be related to this Hartley by DNA.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I continued on with the same method I used for Chromosome 1. That was to use cousin matches and to  identify crossovers by cousin matches. I map those matches and crossovers and what I can infer from the gedmatch comparisons. I then check the Segment Map to see if it agrees with the gedmatch comparisons.
  • I still like using the cousin matches first as it sets the maternal and paternal side right away. The crossovers from the cousin matches seem quite certain and give me a good start on visual phasing.
  • I make sure I keep at least the close crossovers in a spreadsheet, so I can know which crossover goes where. Special attention is given to the position numbers as they can give clues to how many crossovers there are.
  • At the end of my visual phasing, I was looking for double crossovers, but they were not there.
  • For Chromosome 1, I consulted with some of my previous work. For Chromosome 2, I did not look at any previous work I had done or had done for me.
  • Finally, I looked at my results compared with previous results.

 

 

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Sorting Hartley DNA from Snell DNA with the Leeds Color Method

I use the Leeds Color Method to sort AncestryDNA matches into four categories. Those four should be the same  as a person’s four grandparents. I have tested my father’s cousin at AncsestryDNA. Joyce shares two of her grandparents as my two great-grandparents. Those are Hartley and Snell. I would like to be able to separate her Hartley matches from the Snell matches. This is because I am stuck with my genealogy on the Hartley side around the year 1800 in Trawden, Lancashire, England.

Joyce’s Family Tree

In order to separate out Joyce’s matches into four bins, I need to know her ancestry.

Joyce’s four grandparents are Gurney, Rounseville, Hartley and Snell.

Sorting Joyce’s Matches Using Shared Matches

I will be able to sort Joyce’s matches using AncestryDNA’s Shared Matches. First, I need to find Joyce’s closest 2nd cousin match or further out for each grandparent. At the 2nd cousin level, Joyce should match a person on only one of her grandparents.

Joyce has a good match with Chuck on the Snell side:

Joyce and Chuck are 2nd cousins. Their common ancestors are Snell and Bradford. However, on Joyce’s side, the match through Joyce’s Snell grandmother. That means that other Shared matches between Joyce and Chuck would be through Joyce’s Snell line or further back on the Snell ancestors.

I then put this information into a spreadsheet:

My guess up front is that it will be difficult to find Hartley DNA on Joyce’s Hartley grandparent side.

Finding Gurney and Rounseville Matches

Finding Gurney and Rounseville matches will be more difficult as I am not as familiar with the genealogy. Plus many do not have trees. Plus, I need matches that are at 2nd cousin level or further out and that is difficult to determine without trees. One rough way to figure out these matches is to look for Joyce’s matches that don’t match me.

One match that doesn’t match me is Richard. However, I don’t know if he is closer to Joyce than a second cousin. Here is his tree:

I don’t see a Gurney or Rounseville, but it could be on the mother’s side. So for now, I will add Richard to Joyce’s spreadsheet and note that the match is on Joyce’s father’s side:

The next person that doesn’t match me is Susan. Susan is more difficult than Richard to interpret. She is apparently on Joyce’s Gurney side, but she doesn’t have a tree. More confusingly, she matches Beth who is a Hartley relative. But Susan and Joyce must match Beth on Beth’s non-Hartley side.

Here I didn’t put Susan into a grandparent category. I did note she is on Joyce’s father’s side and that she matches Richard.

Going Down Joyce’s DNA Matches at Ancestry

Joyce’s next match is Gary. However, he thinks he is related on the Hartley/Snell line. That means that he is closer to Joyce than a second cousin. I had these names out of order, so I rearranged them:

 

Next is Cynthia. She appears to be on the Gurney side. I note that Chuck should be on the Hartley side, so I corrected that:

I added a column to show that Cynthia has no posted family tree.

The next match is with Bird:

Bird is on the Hartley side, but I can’t tell how close the match is. P means that Bird has a private tree. I would have to message Bird to find out more.

A Second Snell Match

Charles is likely related to Chuck:

Joyce’s Last Two 2nd Cousin Matches by DNA

J has a tree, but it is incomplete. Erin’s tree is locked:

Joyce’s 3rd Cousins by DNA

AncestryDNA estimates that these next matches are 3rd cousins to Joyce by DNA. Even at this level of DNA matches, Joyce still has cousins that are in the range of 1st cousin twice removed. However, here is a match on Joyce’s Gurney side:

Fortunately, AM had a tree posted that matched with Joyce’s tree:

AM has shared matches with Cynthia and Erin, but I don’t know if Cynthia and Erin also have Rounseville ancestors.

The next match is with Jody. The interesting thing is that Jody matches Richard, Susan and Joseph. That is interesting as she doesn’t match Cynthia and Erin. That makes me think that this could be a Rounseville match.

Joyce’s Miller Double Match

Joyce matches Miller, but they have shared matches with Chuck and AM:

That means that Miller matches Joyce on their Snell and Gurney sides. One side must match more than the other, but I can’t tell which. This doesn’t really matter as I am looking for Hartley DNA.

The next match is Bessey. She matches Chuck, and many other of my 2nd cousins, so I can’t tell if the match is just on the Snell side or Snell and Hartley side. I sent a message to Bessey to see if we could figure this out. I have the same issue with Beth:

Hopefully, these will sort themselves out soon.

This is also a bit confusing. Mark shows clearly as a Gurney match, but doesn’t have a shared match with AM:

Because of this, I put Mark in a Gurney2 slot:

Next, JM was managed by the same person as AM and matches AM but not Mark. JM has a private tree for some reason. JM also matched Miller but not Mark.

Joyce and CL

CL seems to be popular on my list. Here is CL’s tree:

The tree is a bit different than the one I have as I have Lucy Chace marrying Jonathan Gurney. I also have Lucy as Franklin’s mother in my tree. At any rate, CL pulls Mark back into the fold as CL is related to AM, Mark and JM:

Joyce’s 50th Match: Jessica

Joyce has 50 matches per page and Jessica is the last on her page. Jessica’s tree connects her to Chuck’s tree and Joyce through Florence Taylor:

Florence’s grandfather was Isaiah Hatch Snell. I can draw out a tree like this:

That makes Joyce and Jessica 2nd cousins twice removed.

Out of 50 of Joyce’s top matches, we have eight people associated with one of Joyce’s grandparents. However, we don’t yet have matches for Hartley or Rounseville only grandparents.

Page 2 of Joyce’s DNA Matches

Salley is match number 51:

Salley is a 3rd cousin, once removed to Joyce on their Rounseville side. However, notice that Salley also has Chace ancestors.

Joyce’s 4th Cousins by DNA

Here I went down the matches as they are now falling into place:

Mark is matching in and out. JR matched CL but not AM and Miller, so I put JR in the Gurney side. At some point, the DNA relatives will not match all of each other. Also one may be related to a Gurney, for example and one may be related to a Gurney grandparent ancestor that is not related to Gurney. In that case, they will not match, but the match will be along the Gurney grandparent ancestral line for Joyce.

Here are some more for the chart:

I had a second match with Rounseville that didn’t match the first, so I added another color of blue. I had two that matched Joseph, and some of the other matches were common with Gurney, so I added Joseph to Gurney. This is fine as long as Joseph doesn’t match Salley or SB. Joseph does match Salley. So I’ll keep Ashley and Kingsley under Gurney and take Joseph off of Gurney. I also took Ashley off of Gurney as I saw no other obvious matches.

The First Hartley Match

The First Hartley Match along Joyce’s Hartley grandparent line is actually has a Howorth ancestor.

Unfortunately, Victoria’s ancestor is Edmund Howorth and mine is James Howorth. However, she has shared matches with someone with “Howerth” in their line and a person with a Howorth name. I have that Joyce’s third great-grandfather was James Howorth born in 1768.

Joyce’s Top 100 Matches

Here are Joyce’s top 100 matches:

I found only one identified Hartley match on Joyce’s Hartley Line. That one is in bright blue. Most of Joyce’s matches were on her Snell or Gurney Line.

What I Have Learned

  • My goal in this exercise was to separate the Snell from the Hartley DNA matches. What I found was that there were very few Hartley matches to separate. I think the reason for this is that Robert Hartley (Jocye’s 2nd great-grandfather) born 1803 had two children: Greenwood and Ann. Greenwood had two children who lived to adulthood: James and Mary Ann. As a result there were not many descendants at this level who have tested for DNA.
  • Slogging through Joyce’s matches, I got a sense of who was related to whom. The Snell and Gurney lines go back to colonial times. At a certain point there are crossovers in the lineages. That is why there some poeple who match on on the orange and green lines.
  • The Gurney and Rounseville green and blue lines were split into two. That is probably due to the Gurney and Rounseville mothers (Chace and Evans). There would be people related to those lines that would not be related to the Gurney and Rounseville Lines.
  • 13 up from the bottom, Joyce had a match with GH. This person appears to be from Australia. This match should also be on the Hartley side. GH has a cluster of ancestors from Lancashire. It may be worth trying to build out this tree to see if there is a connection with Trawden or Bacup. GH’s ancestor’s locations are in orange:
    • A lot of DNA analysis is in the sorting. Joyce has over 1,000 matches by DNA at the 4th cousin or closer level. I went through about 100. There is still some work to be done.
    • Joyce is listed at MyHeritage also. Her brother is at FTDNA. More matches may be found there also.
    • Finding Hartley DNA is not the same as finding Hartleys. The one Hartley DNA match that I looked at had a Howorth ancestor. This family is two steps back in time from the Hartley Line.
    • That means that about 2 out of 100 of Joyce’s matches are on her Hartley grandparent’s line. As Jocye has over 1,000 4th cousin or closer matches, that means that I could expect about 20 Hartley Line matches. They could take a while to find.
    • If anyone else is ambitious, they can discover how their DNA matches sort out into their four grandparents’ lines.

Project Update

I did hear back from “Bessey” who I mention in the Blog. Looks like her name is actually Katherine:

My paternal great grandmother was Hattie Parker Snell Mendall, sister of Annie Snell Hartley. 

This helps to better build out the Snell DNA tree:

 

Katherine is 2nd cousin once removed to Joyce and Chuck and my 3rd cousin. In my looking for Hartley DNA, I ended up sorting out some Snell DNA. As far as AncestryDNA matches go, any shared match between a Hartley and Katherine or a Hartley and Chuck or Jessica would be on the Snell side and not on the Hartley side.

 

 

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My Brother Jimmy’s DNA

Jimmy is the my last brother to have his DNA tested. I cornered him on his recent trip with his wife to visit my 96-year-old mom. I had an FTDNA kit, so that is the test he took.

Is Our DNA the Same?

This is a common question that Jimmy had when testing siblings. Siblings get 50% of their DNA from each parent, but it is a different 50%. I believe that we also share 50% of the same DNA with each sibling. Here is how Jimmy compares to his five siblings in a chromosome browser:

Each color represents one of Jimmy’s five siblings. From the browser, it looks like Jimmy shares more than 50% with each sibling. That is because the browser combines our maternal and paternal DNA. We actually have two copies of each chromosome. However the DNA cannot discern between the maternal and paternal side. I have had my mom tested for DNA. If my father had been alive for DNA testing, Jimmy’s DNA would not have been as important. Even with six siblings tested, it is possible that some of my father’s DNA did not get passed down. One child gets 50% of the father’s DNA. With the second child tested, that goes up to a theoretical 75%. Third child is 87.5%. A fourth is 93.75%. A fifth is about 97% and a sixth is about 98.5%. That still leaves out about 1.5%. That may not seem like a lot. I match my mother at 3,587.0 cM. 1.5% of that amount is about 54 cM. Most of my matches are less than that amount. With a math of 50 cM, the relationship should be fairly easy to figure out. Below that amount, it may be more difficult.

The fact that Jim matches half of each sibling is shown best on the X Chromosome. The X Chromosome for a man is just on the mother’s side. Here is how Jim compares to Jon and Joel:

Jim’s match with Jon is in orange. He matches at about half of the X Chromosome but in different places until the end. There, Jim, Jon and Joel match each other near the end of the  X Chromosome. This will be more fully explained later in the Blog.

Jimmy’s Ethnicity

The map seems fairly reasonable. There is 3% Middle Eastern which is difficult to explain. My mom has a lot of German, so perhaps, some Middle Easterners made their way up to Germany at some point.

Jim’s Ethnicity at Gedmatch

Depending on which testing company or which model, Jim’s results could come out differently. Here is Jim at Gedmatch’s Eurogenes K13 Admixture Proportions:

Jim noted that Heidi had no Middle Eastern at FTDNA. Here is Heidi at Gedmatch:

Here Heidi has more East_Med than Jim and has Oeanian instead of Amerindian. Heidi also has no Red_Sea which I take to be Middle Eastern.

Jim’s Unique Frazer DNA

Emily is Jim’s second cousin once removed.

This is an old tree, so I need to add Jimmy to the lower left box.

Emily’s grandparents are in the middle of the photo. The two on the left are our common ancestors: George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. I uploaded Jimmy’s DNA to Gedmatch. Then I ran checked to see how Emily matched me and my 5 siblings. Surprisingly, on Chromosome 5, Emily matches Jimmy and none of the other 5 siblings:

This shows that Jimmy and Emily have a large math on Chromosome 5 for 57 cM between positions 109M and 166M.

For comparison, here is how Emily matches Joel, Lori, Jon and Heidi on Chromosome 20:

Emily doesn’t match Jim or Sharon here as they probably got their DNA from the Hartley rather than the Frazer side at this part of their Chromosome 20.

A Map of Chromosome 5

This map will give an explanation of how out of six siblings, it was only Jim hat matched Emily on Chromosome 5.

This map has me and my two sisters. The light red is our Frazer side and the dark red is the Hartley side. The top line shows my father’s Hartley and Frazer side. Note that there is a cross-hatched section in the lighter red in the top line. That is where there was Frazer DNA missing that was not passed down to these three siblings. However, JImmy has made up for this by having Frazer DNA in this segment of his Chromosome 5.

Mapping Jim’s X Chromosome

Men only get one X Chromosome from their mother. That means it should be fairly easy to map Jim’s X Chromosome. Here is how the three brothers compare on the X Chromosome:

The green with blue underneath is where there is a match. The red where there is no blue underneath is where there is no match. Next, I added position numbers and crossovers. Crossovers are where are DNA crosses to what we got from one grandparent to what we got from another. In this case, these are maternal grandparents, so that would be either Rathfelder or Lentz.

Jim gets the first crossover. This is because at position 12, Jim is in the first two changes. He goes from non-match to match with Jon and from match to non-mathc with Joel at position 12.

In the next step, I color in the DNA Fomr Jim, Jon, and Joel. Jon and Joel match from 100 to 140, so I’ll color that one color. Jim does not match Joel or Jon in that area, so he will get a different color.

These colors will stand for Rathfelder or Lentz, but we don’t know which is which yet. However, I’m curious, so I’ll check. I notice that Jim has an X match with Anita from Latvia. She is a Rathfelder-descended cousin that I found out about recently through DNA. Here is her match with Jim:

That means that Jim’s orange is Rathfelder. These colors can be expanded to the crossovers. Jim has a crossover one segment to the left and none to the right. So I can extand the orange.

Blue has to be Lentz, and this can also be extended.

Note that Joel had crossovers on both side, so the blue could not be extended. However, on the other side of the crossover, I have to go toi Rathfelder as that is the only other choice. In this way, the map can be filled out. Here is a quick X Chromosome map for Jim:

It is possible to check the matches and non-matches above to make sure that they and the map agree. This is quick, but it is accurate? I had someone map my X Chromosome by a different method and he got this:

Based on this, my mapping is accurate on the right side of the Chromosome, but not on the left. This shows that I have a crossover at 23. Sometimes what looks like a crossover for one sibling is actually a crossover for the other two siblings. That is what appears to have happened at position 23. The crossover was probably for Jon and Joel.

So, under the above, Jim has three X segments, Jon has four and Joel has five.

Splitting JIm’s DNA

Because I had my mom’s DNA tested, I can split JIm’s DNA into two. Gedmatch has a utility called a Phased Data Generator:

I put Jim’s kit in and Mom’s and out pops two new DNA kits. One is Jim’s maternal side and the other is Jim’s paternal side. This represents most of the half of the DNA he got from mom and the half from dad. These are useful, because now we can tell when there is a DNA match whether it is on the maternal or paternal side. The matches that are on neither side are most likely not good matches. Here is an example:

Jim’s paternal matches are in blue and the maternal in red. The ones with no color are from FTDNA, so I haven’t figured those out yet. The green matches are the matches of 15 cM or more.

Next Steps

By further DNA mapping, I would be able to tell on which grandparent side each of Jim’s matches are on. I will already know that for Jim’s X Chromosome matches. Here an example. Jim matches Richard here:

We know that Jim is mapped to Lentz in this segment from the mapping above.

I’ll also see how Jim matches those in the Frazer DNA Project I have been working on. In addition, we’ll see how he matches different paternal matches. I’m currently stuck on the Hartley and Spratt side of our genealogy, so perhaps Jim’s DNA results will help there.

 

 

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The World of the Emmet Family in the 1700’s and 1800’s Around Bacup

In my last Blog, I wrote about the DNA results for my dad’s cousin Maury and some of our shared roots in the area of Bacup, Lancashire, England. That Blog focused more on the Howorth Line in Bacup. I would like to look at the Emmet Line in this Blog.

The Emmet Family

The information I have on the Emmet family goes back to the 1700’s. I have a web page on this family that I last updated in 2004. Here is a photo that a fellow researcher found. She believes this to be Ann Emmet (wife of Greenwood Hartrley) born 1829:

 

I tried to re-scan this, but it is difficult to scan it as the photo is within a leather frame. I’ll start with Ann’s parent and see where I can go from there.

Isaac Emmet born about 1798 and Esther Howorth

I’ll be bouncing around a bit. It would make more sense to start with the oldest couple and go down toward the present. However, with genealogy, there is a principal that you need to start with what you know which would be the more recent.

Here is the 1841 Census with Isaac and his family:

 

Here the writer spells Emmet as Emmett. They are in the Parish of Rochdale, the Township of Spotland, the area of Whitworth and Brandwood and the specific place they lived was called Stubby Lee.

 

Stubbylee is to the South of Bacup. Isaac was from Hey head which I assume is near Hey. Right before she married, Esther was living near Thorn on the map. It looks like the family had six children in 1841 and a 54 year old Mary Emmett was living with them. She could have been Isaac’s sister or other relative. From what I can tell Isaac and James Emmett were farm laborers. Isaac’s two oldest daughters were cotton weavers. Cotton weaving would have been a fairly new industry at the time.

Isaac and Esther in 1851

The 1851 Census was an improvement over 1841 as it gave more information:

Here Isaac and Esther were living at “Stubelee’ House. Perhaps the owners were not present. The head of the house was listed as a House Maid. Isaac was a servant at this house or hall:

Visions of Downton Abbey come to mind – perhaps on a smaller scale. Here is a photo of Stubby Lee where Isaac and Esther lived in 1851.

I would assume that Isaac would have been of good character and dependable to work at such a place. I also assume that this would have been a respectable job for Isaac – a cut above farm laborer or factory worker.

Here are the birthplaces of the people living in this house in 1851:

I assume that the first person was the head maid. She is listed as a widowed house maid. She was from Monmouthshire. This is a County in SE Wales. The next person is Julia Fraser. She is listed as the unmarried daughter of the head maid Ann Corfeld. She was born in the East Indies. Isaac was the man servant of the house again enumerated as Emmett with two tees. His birthplace is difficult to read. At first I thought is was Sou Clough, but now I’m not so sure. Esther was born at Nothill. This was discussed in my previous Blog. Esther is shown with no occupation, so apparently she was allowed to live at the house. From my understanding, this would have been an unusual arrangement. Isaac is listed as a resident and Esther as a lodger. Perhaps she payed to stay there. Below Esther is Mary Taterstall. She, like Isaac, is listed as a resident and the married wife of a Coach manufacturer. Mary was born in Greennook [hepton?]. The person in living at Lumb Hall next to Subby Lee was Jane Taterstall. She was a married dressmaker living on her own.

This picture raises a few questions. Where was Souclough and where were the Emmet children. Who took care of them? Were they considered to be old enough to be on their own?

Where is Souclough?

I Googled Souclough and got exactly one return. How often does that happen?

This is a burial record. It identifies Sou Clough as being in the area of Tunstead. That got me in the right area of Bacup. This place is actually called Sow Clough on this map:

This map represents where Isaac Emmet was in 1851 and 52 years earlier when he was born. So a Sow Clough boy married into a family from Hogshead (see previous Blog).

A look down present Sow Clough Road on Google Maps shows that it has newer residential homes on it. I did find one older looking house on Sow Clough Road reminiscent of an earlier day:

A clough is a deep ravine, so that would be a clough behind the house.

The Emmet Kids in 1851

I would like to find the children of Isaac and Esther Emmet in the 1851 Census to see what they were up to. According to Ann’s marriage record, she was living in Stubby Lee right before December 18th, 1851 when she got married. That means I need to check around the area of Stubby Lee Hall for Ann. I found her on the next page of the Census:

I have a feeling that a Hartley researcher friend found this before for me. So the children were living close to the parents. I count six households in Stubby Lee other than the Stubby Lee Hall.  Sister Mary at age 26 was holding things together for her younger siblings. The youngest Isaac was a Tea Boy. I was told by my friend that a tea boy would go around the factory giving out tea to the workers until he was old enough to do factory work. So he was a working boy at age 9.  He would have been born after the 1841 Census. This was definitely a working household with all five siblings between the ages of 9 and 26 working. Here the birthplaces were not listed as precisely as they were for Stubby Lee Hall. Only the parish name was given.

Isaac Emmet’s Baptismal Record

Here is the old St. John the Evangelist Church in Bacup where Isaac Emmet was baptized in 1798:

Isaac’s Parents: Edmund Emmet and Sarah

We know that Edmund Emmet and his wife Sarah were living at Sow Clough in 1798 when their son Isaac was born. What else do we know about this couple?

George Emmet, born 1796

The first child of Edmund and Sarah Emmet that I have a record of was George, baptized July 23rd, 1796:

The family was still clearly living at Sowclough. This baptism took place at St. Nicholas at Newchurch.

Newchurch was the next Town to the West of Sow Clough.

I took a further look at the Newchurch records and found this:

First, there were two Edmund Emmets. One was married to Sarah and one was married to Mary. Mary died in 1801. This could make it difficult to find the birth of Edmund. I assume that our Edmund was younger than the one married to Mary. It looks like our Emmet Family was larger than I knew.

When DId Edmund Die?

I found two records for the death of Edmund Emmet. They correspond to the two Edmund’s above.

The first Edmund was born about 1727. Our Edmund would have been born about 1757. So they may have been father and son. That is sad that Edmund ended up at the workhouse. My understanding was that the workhouse was intentionally made to be a pretty miserable place to make sure people didn’t want to go there.

Edmund’s Death Seems to Lead to His Birth

Sounds odd, I know.

It looks like this other Edmund could very well have been the father of our Edmund. I had said that based on Edmund’s age at death he should have been born about 1757. That is not far off from 1759 when this Edmund was born.

Here is Goodshaw where Edmund was born. I would guess on a straight line it would be about five miles from Goodshaw to Bacup.

Two Additions to the Hartley Family Tree

This couple of Edmund Emmet and Mary Omerod are now some of the furthest back ancestors of the Hartley family.

Where is Cloughbottom?

Cloughbottom is associated with the older Edmund Emmet. I found this photo online:

Clough Bottom appears to be associated with Waterfoot.

On the map, it looks like Waterroot, but I think that it is the same place. Well, that should wrap it up for now. I’m not sure I got all my names and places right, but I’m sure I got many of them right.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was able to take a little look into the life of Isaac Emmet – farm laborer turned servant.
  • I also looked at Isaac’s father and grandfather and the places that they lived.
  • Sadly, Edmund Jr. appears to have ended up in a poor house. This was usually a last chance place to go.
  • Edmund Sr. lived North of Rawtenstall near Goodshaw  where Edmund Jr was born. At a later time he moved to Clough Bottom which apparently later became a reservoir.
  • I was able to find the last name of the wife of Edmund Emmet Sr, but not the last name of the wife of Edmund Emmet Jr.
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My Father’s Cousin Maury’s DNA and Hartley Ancestors

My father’s cousin Maurey recently had a DNA test at Ancestry. Then his daughter Holly uploaded those results to Gedmatch.

A Hartley DNA Tree

Here is a tree showing those in the Hartley family that have had their DNA tested. Others have tested at AncestryDNA, but Ancestry does not provide specific information on which chromosome the matches are on.

 

Maury is in the line on the left. I had previously had Jim and Joyce tested. They are both children of Annie Hartley. Here is a photo of some of the Hartleys.

Maury’s mom Grace is circled in red on the right. Jim and Joyce’s mom Annie is circled in red on the left. From my generation, there are descendants of Jim circled in yellow and Mary also circled in yellow. That represents four out of thirteen Hartleys with DNA-tested descendants. I have other second cousins that have tested at AncestryDNA, but they have not uploaded their results to gedmatch for analysis.

My DNA Match with Maury

Here is what my match with Maury looks like at gedmatch:

That is more DNA than I share with Jim, but less than I share with Joyce, so about average for my three Hartley first cousins, once removed.

Here is a photo of me in the front of the boat and Maury’s nephew Tom steering in the Mattapoisett River Race. From memory I was in 8th grade. I believe that is Maury standing on the left.

Mapping Maury

My Paternal DNA Map before Maury:

This shows that 46% of my paternal side is filled in. On my maternal side which I don’t show above, I have only 20% filled in. When I choose just the green matches which represent my Hartley/Snell DNA that I share with cousins, the DNA Painter program says that “represents about 17% of the base pairs in this profile”.

Maury actually did not add much more Hartley DNA. I already have a lot of Hartley DNA matches. However, he did bring my mapped DNA up from 32% to 33%. That means, that overall, between my mom and dad’s side one-third of my DNA is mapped. That is a bit of a milestone.

Maury’s Huge Hunk of Pilling DNA

Here is a DNA tree of the Pilling Line:

A DNA tree is just people in a tree that have had their DNA tested. That means that the actual genealogical tree would be much larger. The people in green have had their DNA tested and have uploaded to Gedmatch. One exception is Jennifer who tested at 23andme which has a chromosome browser.

Maury is in the line on the left. The line on the right is from William Wilkinson. Mary Pilling married Robert Hartley. Robert Hartley died young. Then Mary married Robert Wilkinson and had another family. Richard descends from that side. That means that any Hartley descendant that matches Richard can know that they match Richard with Pilling DNA and not Hartley DNA. That is because Richard has no known Hartley DNA.

Here is how Richard matches Maury on Chromosome 19:

The orange bar is the match between Richard and Maury. The small blue match is between Richard and my brother Jonathan. The orange match is 53 cM and takes up most of Maury’s Chromosome 19. So Maury has a pretty large hunk of DNA from his 2nd great-grandmother, Mary Pilling. That DNA made its way intact through Greenwood Hartley, James Hartley, Grace Hartley and down to Maury. Mary Pilling played a big role in the history of the Pilling, Hartley and Wilkinson families. She lived in Trawden, Bacup and finally crossed the ocean as an elderly woman with the Hartley and Wilkinson families, finally dying in New Bedford.

Maury’s X Chromosome

Here is how Maury matches some of his cousins by the X Chromosome:

Here Maury matches his first cousins Joyce and Jim. Then he matches his 1st cousins once removed Beth and Pat (numbers 3 and 4).

The matches represent either James Hartley or his wife Annie Snell. Note that Maury doesn’t match me or my 4 tested siblings. That is because the X Chromosome does not travel from father to son. My grandfather had one X Chromosome but that got passed down to his daughter, not his son.

I circled the middle area of Maury’s X Chromosome matches above. It appears in that area the DNA he got on his X Chromosome switched from Hartley to Snell or the other way around. If I were to test my paternal first cousins, then they would have Snell X Chromosome and not Hartley. That is because, they descend from my grandfather’s daughter. She would have an X Chromosome that my grandfather got from his mother who was Annie Snell. Any of the Hartley relatives that matched them would then know that match was on the Snell side and not the Hartley side.

Identifying Maury’s unknown X Chromosome matches.

Here are some of Maury’s top unknown X matches. I would like to know if they are from the Hartley side or Snell side. My guess is that most of them will be from the Snell side as there would be more people matching on the Colonial Massachusetts Snell side compared to the Lancashire, England side.

When I choose these people in a Chromosome Browser, the matches look like this:

Remember I said that I thought that most of Maury’s X matches would be on his Snell side. For Maury’s group of matches in the middle, they stop at position 83M. My guess is that is where Maury’s X Chromosome goes from Snell DNA to Hartley DNA. After position 83M, Maury’s X matches disappear.

Again, this is my guess. It has not been proven by contacting each match and checking on their ancestors.

Maury and the Howorth Family

Who are the Howorths? Greenwood Hartley married Ann Emmet in Bacup, England. Ann’s mother was Esther Howorth born in 1800.

 

Maury is on th left. There is a family on the right that matches by DNA. They also descend from the Howorth family. They descend from Abraham, the brother of Esther and live in Australia. Here is Maury’s DNA match with Anne of Australia:

Other Hartleys have matches with this family, so all the matches likely represent Abraham Howorth, born in 1768 or his wife Mary.

Who Was James Howorth’s Wife Mary?

I don’t have a name for James’ wife Mary. That would be nice to know. Looking at Ancestry trees, I don’t get a clear answer. Here are the children I have for the couple:

Hopefully, these are all from the same family. Ancestry has hints for Mary. For Betty and Abram, it could be that a child died and a subsequent child was given their name in their memory.

The hints for Mary at Ancestry.com show that Mary was Mary Hargreaves. However, it shows her marrying a John Haworth. So, unless John and James were the same person, that would not be right. This is likely the John and Mary couple that Ancestry gives as a hint:

There appeared to be Hargreaves also living in Trough.

I’ll look at a website called Lancashire Online Parish Clerks where I got the information from the previous screen shot. I would think that Abraham and Mary married about 1787. When I enter a search for James Howorth marrying a Mary, I get 311 results.

Here are some of the best candidates:

I would favor the Rochdale listings as Bury and Manchester were further away. That leaves Shepherd, Holt, or Eastwood as the last name for Mary. I’ll make the assumption that Mary was the mother of all the children above. The last child was born in 1815 when James was 47.  I’ll say that Mary was three years younger than James and was 44 when her last child was born. That would mean that she would have been about 18 when she married. That would put her birth about 1771.

Here is a Mary Shepherd:

Here dad was Richard and her mom was Ellin. I would have thought that she might name some children after her mom or dad if this was the right Mary.

There are too many Mary Holt’s in the records. Here is one guess:

I like this Mary because her dad and mom were John and Betty. Mary’s first two known children were Betty and John. As I understand it, Bacup was originally not much of a place and Spotland was more of the area. So this my be a good place for an ancestor to be born.

Here is a map of historic Spotland (before 1850) from http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Spotland/ParishMap:

This is copied from the website as the areas of Spotland:

445 – Chadwick, 446 – Clay Lane, 447 – Catley Lane, 448 – Woodhouse Lane, 449 – Wolstenholme and Cheeseden, 450 – Brandwood Lower End, 451 – Brandwood Higher End, 452 – Whitworth Higher End, 453 – Whitworth Lower End, 454 – Healey, 455 – Failworth

Two areas that I will be looking at later in the Blog are 451 and 452 to the South and East of Bacup.

Here is a possible Eastwood choice:

Again, Mary Howorth did not name any of her children Richard or Alice that I know of.

As stated above, I am leaning toward Holt for a new Hartley ancestral name.

Back to Esther Howorth

Now I’ll look some more at Esther. Esther Howorth married Isaac Emmet. They had Ann Emmet who married Greenwood Hartley.

Where was Esther Born?

There is some confusion as to where Esther was born. Here is the online record:

I’ve looked at the original record and saw no note about Nun hill. There is a Nun Hills to the west of Bacup. There is also a Knothill. The Bacup Weslyan records have reference to a Knothill:

However, my understanding is that Spotland was a ways away South near Rochdale.I also see in the Weslyan records an interesting reference to, “Knothill Nook near Shayforth”

There is a Shawforth near Trough and Hogshead, so perhaps this is the place?

Finding Knot Hill

I think I found Knot Hill. I assume that Knothill Nook is even more specific than Knothill. I appreciate the meticulousness of whoever recorded that record. This map is from http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/

Also in the process, I have found Trough which I had trouble finding previously. I had assumed that Trough Gate was close and it is pretty close to Trough. The trick is finding an old enough map with enough detail. For some reason I get a lot of joy in figuring out where my ancestors lived. So, I’ll say that in 1800 at least, the Howorth family was living at Knot HIll aka Nothill. One problem is that place names have changed over the years. I would have to say that being born at Knot Hill sounds more prestigious than being born at Hogshead or Trough.

So. the next time you are in Bacup, look for Knot Hill. Take the A671 from Bacup going South toward Rochdale. Knothill should be between Trough Gate and Shawforth. If I am ever in the area again, I would like to get out of the car there and walk around.

While I’m Visiting Bacup

Esther was listed as living in a different place in 1821:

She was living in “Fair wall”. The groom was living in Hey Head. That is where I had the Howorth family living in 1806 and 1809. I’m not sure if the family moved about a bit or if the location was reported differently (that is, with different levels of precision).

It looks like Fair Wall was indeed a place, but where?

The above publication was from 1888.

 

Here is a detailed map from 1890 to the East of Bacup:

The last two Howorth children were born in Tong and Higher Tong. Due to the proximity of the Tong Farm and Fair View, I am guessing that Fair View may be the same as Fair Way. That leaves us with Heyhead or Hey Head. Two Howorth children were born there in 1806 and 1809.

One Hey Head Or Two?

I just noticed something today:

Ann Howorth is born in Hey head, parish of Rossendale. Hannah Howorth is born in Heyhead, parish of Rochdale. All other Howorth children have been born in the parish of Rochdale (except for the last Betty which also seems to be a mistake). That leaves a few possibilities:

  1. These are different families
  2. They moved from Hey head, Rossendale Parish to Hey head, Rochdale Parish
  3. The person writing down the information for the Baptist Baptism mixed up the Hey Head in Rochdale with the one in Rochdale.

At this point I would be willing to go with what is behind door number three. I also note that Isaac Emmet was from Hey Head in the Parish of Rochdale at the time of his marriage.

I had already given up on Nun Hills in favor of Knot Hill as per above. Now I am giving up on Hey Head which is further to the West in favor of the Hey shown below.

Summarizing the Howorth Living Areas

That leaves all the Howorth family living as per below in the purple circled locations. I have managed to round them up into areas to the South and East of Bacup:

  1. From the lower right I have Trough where Betty was born in 1789.
  2. John was born 1793 in Hogshead.
  3. Sally was born in 1795 back in Trough
  4. Abram was born 1798 in Hogshead
  5. Esther gets her own named place of birth of Knot Hill in 1800.
  6. James is born in 1803 in Hogshead
  7. Ann is born in Hey head 1806
  8. Hannah is born in Heyhead 1809
  9. Abram is born in Tong in 1814
  10. Betty is born in Higher Tong in 1815
  11. Esther is living at Fair Wall (=Fair View?) at the time of her marriage in 1821. Fair Wall and Tong do not appear by name on the map, but they should be in the area of the small circle between Hey and Bacup. Again, Tong may have been the more general area and Fair Wall a specific house or row of houses.
  12. Esther’s husband Isaac Emmet lived at Hey Head prior to his wedding day. If I have their two places of residence right, they would have been living quite close to each other.
  13. If I have the right James Howarth, father of Esther, he is living in Underbank at the top circle prior to the time of his death in 1839.
  14. By 1851, Greenwood Hartley is living at Underbank and marries Esther’s daughter, Ann Emmet.

It is unclear to me whether the family moved around a lot or if the places where they lived were listed inconsistently. Hogshead is listed three times for Howorth births which is more than any other location. This is somewhat central to the other locations. This revised version of where the Howorth family lived holds together better than the version at my Howorth Web Page.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Maury got a large hunk of DNA from his second great-grandmother Mary Pilling.
  • Maury’s X Chromosome matches represent either the Hartley side or the Snell side. Maury’s unknown X matches will likely be mostly on the Snell side.
  • Maury matches Ann from Australia. This match appears to represent DNA that they both inherited from James Howorth born in 1868 or his wife Mary.
  • I tried to find more about Mary, but didn’t have much luck.
  • I did find more information on where the Howorth family lived by looking at vital records and an 1800’s map. There was a lot of confustion due to similar place names and apparent mis-reporting of parishes.
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Jennifer, a Top DNA Match at 23andme

I was in touch with Jennifer at 23andme recently as I wondered how we were related. Jennifer wrote back to me and said that her grandmother was a Gurney. From there, I could tell how we were related.

 

The green boxes have people in them that have had their DNA tested. Jennifer is in the bottom right. All these people descend from James Hartley and Annie Snell who had 13 children. Colleen is Joyce’s granddaughter. She also tested at 23andme and we have been in touch recently.

Jennifer’s DNA

The DNA that Jennifer and I share is from either James Hartley or Annie Snell. We can’t tell which. In order to figure that out we would need to have a match with a Hartley that isn’t related to a Snell or a Snell that isn’t related to a Hartley.

Here is what that DNA looks like on a Chromosome Browser at 23andme:

 

My Chromosome Map

I have been mapping my Chromosomes. That means that I have been keeping track of where my DNA comes from. Here is what I have so far:

The second to the lightest blue is the DNA that I know is from James Hartley or Annie Snell. This would be from all the other people in the green boxes that have had their DNA tested. This appears on the male side of my Chromosomes shown as the top side above. About half of my paternal side DNA should be from the Hartley/Snell side. The other half is Frazer from my father’s mother.

If I superimpose my match with Jennifer with my chromosome map above, there will be places that Jenneifer matches with DNA that I have already gotten from other cousins. There are also places that I haven’t had a match yet. I think that Jennifer will add new Hartley/Snell DNA to my map on Chromosomes 3 and 10.

I have circled the new parts of Hartley/Snell DNA that Jennifer and I share.

Comparing Jennifer with Others at 23andme

The view above is how my DNA compares to:

  • Jennifer in purple
  • Colleen in orange
  • Brian in yellow

I know how I am related to Jennifer and Colleen, but I don’t know how I am related to Brian. Brian is a shared match with Jennifer. That means he probably has a common ancestor somewhere in the ancestry of James Hartley and Annie Snell. I would like to know which ancestor the yellow bar on Chromosome 10 represents but Brian has no ancestry tree.

Chromosome 10 Ancestor, Where Art Thou?

Emily at 23andme also shares DNA with Jennifer and me. She has a bit of a tree at MyHeritage:

The bottom line would be Emily’s parents. The way our DNA is matching, 23andme estimates our relationship to be at 4th cousins. Emily shows all four grandparents. However, that would be the 1st cousin level. The level we may be matching at may be three generations or so beyond that level. The Lee Line appears to be in Scotland, so I would rule that out. That leaves three grandparents at the 1st cousin level:

  • 6 great grandparents – 2nd cousins
  • 12 2nd great grandparents – 3rd cousins
  • 24 3rd great grandparents – 4th cousins

That means that I would need to build out Emily’s line to 24 3rd great grandparents before I might find a common ancestor. I’m too busy, so I’ll look at another matching person.

Shamus’ Tree

I match Shamus at about the same segment that I match Jennifer, Brian, and Emily on Chromosome 10. However, Shamus has a tree at FTDNA. Shamus’ paternal side is Irish, and my Hartley side has no known Irish ancestors. So I’ll look at Shamus’ maternal side:

The first two people are Shamus’ maternal grandparents. So that would be 1st cousin level. Assuming that I am 4th cousin with Shamus, that would be the last column of 16 ancestors. Actually, there are 15 as one is missing. This means that Shamus has done a lot of the work on his tree that I would have had to have done on Emily’s tree and that I couldn’t do on Brian’s tree because I had nowhere to start. Unfortunately, I don’t recognize any of these names as being in my tree.

FTDNA does identify these surnames that are both of our trees:

These are names that go way back to colonial times.

Any Inman Connection?

I did notice that Shamus was missing a mother for Earle Inman. According to one ancestry tree, his mother was Lydia Wheelock born 1812. That same tree has her father as Avis Handy which doesn’t make sense unless Lydia was married more than once.

I did notice that Townsend should not be on my list. For some reason my ancestry tree had Townsend as the father of the Almy family. That wasn’t right, so I changed it.

The Wing Connection

There is a connection between Shamus and me, but it goes back to the 1500’s. That is a long time ago:

John Wing born in 1584 had Daniel Wing who I descend from and Stephen Wing who Shamus descends from. John Wing is my 10th great grandfather. So that would make Shamus and me approximately 11th cousins. I wouldn’t be ready to assign the DNA to the Wing family just yet. However, the DNA seems to come from a colonial Massachusetts source.

My Shared DNA Matches with Shamus

Here are some other people that share DNA at Chromosome 10 from Gedmatch:

All that shared DNA and I can’t figure out where it comes from. The match between me and Shamus is at the top. Then other matches appear to have gotten their DNA from the same place that Shamus and I have.

The other people are:

  • Randy – no tree
  • Don – no tree found
  • Valarie – no tree found
  • Kathy – She had a good tree, but I couldn’t find good matches by both place and name
  • Jessica – no tree found
  • Michelle – can’t find tree
  • Cheyenne – She has a large tree at Ancestry, but no obvious match
  • Sean – no tree

At this point, I’m ready to call it quits.

More DNA Mapping

As I went back and looked at Colleen’s DNA compared to me, I see we have some DNA that I haven’t mapped on Chromosome 9. This would have had to have come from Colleen’s grandmother Joyce. That means that I must have not mapped Joyce’s DNA to my Chromosome Map:

Here is my match with Joyce:

Here is what I had:

Here is the new map:

This filled in some more Hartley/Snell DNA on my Chromosome 9 and in some other areas – most notably Chromosomes 2 and 14.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I looked at Jennifer’s DNA. We are 2nd cousins once removed and we both tested at 23andme
  • Jennifer added new DNA from my great-grandparents that I didn’t know about before.
  • I tried to track down the common ancestors for a shared match on Chromosome 10 but had no luck.
  • I noticed from comparison with Colleen, that I had missed her grandmother Joyce when making my Chromosome map, so I added her results.