I recently had an some emails from two people who are on the Philip Frazer Line. This first email was from Jeanette:
Hello dear you both. I and my sister are matched with Kay from Australia. She and ourcommon matches show DNA on our third and seventh chromosomes. Estimated fourth or fifth Cousin.
There is also a Donald Hartley match.
Another match is with Janet Susan Fitzgerald (born Frazer). Her tree has Archibald Frazer born 1751 to 1835 whose father is James Frazer of Clerragh 1720 to 1835.
His father was Archibald 1690 to 1749.
I hope this is helpful in our quest to link Mary Taylor to the Frazer family.
I have written to Kay.
Sincerely Jeannette
The second email was from Richard:
Hi Joel,
In light of Jeannette’s message advising of DNA linkages between her Taylor family and people in the Frazer line, I am forwarding my Frazer/Taylor conclusions for your consideration. My conclusions are supported by immigration, settlement and naming information. I was launched on this path by a letter sent 50 years ago from my second cousin 3x removed, Muriel Lewis: “My grandmother, on my Mother’s side, Rebecca (Reba) Taylor married John Elliott. This is why Myrtle [Muriel’s sister] was named Myrtle ‘Taylor’ Lewis. My grandmother’s sister, a Taylor, married a Fraser, or Frazer [Mary Taylor m. Philip Frazer c. 1822??]”
Based on that information, I looked into Rebecca Taylor and her relatives who immigrated in 1830 to North Elmsley Twp, Lanark County in what is now Ontario.
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- Edward Taylor (b. Sligo in 1764, d. 1845 in Lanark County ON) was the father of John Taylor (b. 1821 in Sligo) and William Taylor (b. 1829 in Sligo) and all of them immigrated in 1830 and settled near one another in Elmsley Twp, Lanark – includes Perth Ontario). Edward’s wife was Catharine** (b. 1786 in Sligo, d. 1860 in Lanark ON, maiden name unknown). I haven’t located their marriage record from Ireland. In the 1851 Canada Census, Catharine, a widow, lived with John Taylor and his wife Elizabeth and their children Sarah and James. William Taylor and his wife Margaret lived either in the same log house or next door. John and William are both listed as farmers. ** NOTE: most of the census records spell it as Catherine (the normal spelling) but her tombstone reads ‘Catharine.’ Jeannette advises that the Taylor descendants have spelled their Catharines with an ‘a’ in recognition of Edward Taylor’s wife Catharine
- Rebecca Taylor (b. Sligo c 1814-1816, also immigrated to North Elmsley in 1830) married John Elliott in 1831. Among their children in the 1851 Canada Census were Catherine Elliott (named after Rebecca’s mother?) and Edward Eilliott (named after Rebecca’s father?). My conclusion is that Edward Taylor and Catharine _) were Rebecca’s parents – with John Taylor and William Taylor as her brothers.
- Mary Taylor (b. Sligo in 1805) married Philip Frazer in 1822. By 1830 they had at least three children and presumably were not interested in emigrating to Canada then. They had at least two other children after 1830. Since Mary Taylor is the only Taylor woman who married a Frazer in this family, I conclude that Mary Taylor and Rebecca Taylor were sisters, and that Edward Taylor and Catharine _ were Mary Taylor’s parents.
- One of the daughters of Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor, Eliza Frazer (b. 1826 at Kilmactranny, Sligo) emigrated to Canada in 1842 (aged 16) but I don’t have any information on who she came with (no immigration records to Canada at that time). In 1845, she married Courtney Colter in Smith’s Falls (Bathurst District, later Ontario) which is near North Elmsley. Quite possibly Eliza Frazer stayed with her aunt Rebecca until she was married. One of the witnesses to her marriage was John Taylor, presumably her uncle. Eliza and Courtney’s children included Philip (b. 1848), John (b. 1850), William (b. 1852), Mary (b. 1856) and Rebecca (b. 1858), which reinforces the apparent connections to the Taylors. The family relocated to Brant County, SW Ontario before the 1851 Canada Census – by the way, George Frasier, age 12, was living with Courtney and Eliza in 1851 – potentially our George James Fraser (?) who identified his parents as Philip Frazer and Mary Gray [either a later wife of Philip Frazer or a deliberate ‘error’ as George’s name is stated on the marriage register as John G. Frazer. His bride, who was pregnant, misstated her parents’ names and they married in another town].
- My gggrandmother, Ann Frazer (b. 1822 at Kilmactranny, Sligo) was the fourth child of Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor. I don’t know when she immigrated to Canada but by 1851 her sister Eliza and family were living in Brant County, Ontario. Ann Frazer married Robert Johnston in Oxford County, Ontario (next door to Brant County) in 1853 (according to a Family Bible – no marriage record located yet). Among the children of Ann Frazer and Robert Johnston were Philip Frazer Johnston, Mary Jane Johnston, Rebecca Annie Johnston and Edward Taylor Johnston, providing additional reinforcement of the family relationships with the Taylors.
- Another Frazer sister, Rebecca2 (b. c 1837 in Ireland and perhaps named after her aunt Rebecca Taylor), later immigrated to Canada. In the 1861 Ontario Census, Rebecca (daughter of Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor) was living with her sister Ann Frazer, brother in law, Robert Johnston and family. Rebecca Frazer married William Geddes in 1865, listing her parents as Philip and Mary (Taylor). Rebecca Frazer died in 1877 without children.
So that’s the plot line. The more I think about it, the more likely it sounds. If there is any documentation, it might be in Irish records but we know how scarce those are.
Jeannette and I would welcome your thoughts.
Richard
Here is Richard in my Philip Frazer DNA Tree:
Now, I have that Philip above born about 1800 was the son of another Philip. He had two known sons who were Philip and James Frazer. I have that James Frazer married his first cousin Violet Frazer and that was the line I come from.
Confusingly the Jeanette in the tree above is a different Jeanette. The Jeanette that wrote has Taylor ancestry. I have that at least one Taylor married a Frazer.
The confusing part about this record is that there could be different interpretations. It could be that Philip born around 1800 or likely before married first Jane Johnston. She may have passed away and then Philip married secondly Mary Taylor.
I do have this transcribed record:
This is from a chronological compilation of Frazer records that were available several years ago. JDH is me and MFA is Michael, a Frazer descendant and researcher living in England.
The interpretation from that time appears to be that Jane Johnston married Philip, son of Philip in 1818, had one daughter with that wife named Jane in 1819.
I should note that Richard and Jeannette are looking at the Taylor family. I do not have any known relation to the Taylor family. However, the way the people intermarried, it would not be surprising if I was related in some way. That also means, that as I have no known connection to the Taylor line, it would not be surprising if my family had no matches with Taylor descendants who were not also Frazer desendants or related in some other way.
Also David
I also wrote a Blog about David recently as he shows at Ancestry as being related through the Philip Frazer Line:
David matches my sister Sharon at Ancestry. I notice that David also matches my brother Jim at Gedmatch. Jim tested at FTDNA but not at Ancestry. David is quite sure of his ancestry up through George James Frazer born 1841 in Sligo, but is not convinced that George James was the son of Philip. I had written a Blog about David recently here.
So What Is My Goal?
As I see it now, I have two goals. One goal is to see if Jeanette is related to the Frazers. The other is to see how David is related to the Frazer Line. Both of these goals seem to hinge on whether Philip Frazer who married Mary Taylor at the Kilmactranny Parish was the father of Ann Frazer and George James Frazer who moved to Ontario. I suppose a third goal is to improve my confort in the theory that Philip Frazer born some time between 1758 and 1776 was the father of Philip, George and James. James was my ancestor and Philip Junior the ancestor of the green tree above.
The Genealogy
It is well documented that Philip married first Jane Johnston and secondly Mary Taylor. These are recorded in lists of marriage license bonds and also Philip’s first marriage is recorded in the Kilmactranny Parish records. Here is Kilmactranny:
The dotted line is the border between County Sligo and County Roscommon.
That was Philip Junior and his marriages. Secondly, I have this genealogy from about 75 years ago:
Unfortunately for me, this does not show that James was a son of Philip. However, I believe that he was and the person doing the research was not aware that he was a son of Philip or did not want to empasize that as it would have shown that James married his 1st cousin Violet Frazer.
Third, I have the Tithe Applotment. These were taken probably in 1933 in Derrycashel. I have this from my Frazer Website:
My belief is that Georg, Philip and James Frazer were all the sons of Philip Frazer. In fact, the order may even indicate the birth order. I have these two Frazer burial records from 1831:
My guess is that the William and George could be the same two listed in the Tithe Applotments above. One problem with that is that I have that the Tithe Applotment was in 1833 and these two deaths were two years earlier. This could be explained if:
- The Tithe Applotment was taken earlier (say 1831) not published in 1833.
- The Tithe Applotment knew these two were dead but still named William and George as the properties were still in the family.
Interesting, my 2nd great-grandfather was named George William born about 1838. I think that he could have been named for the George and William who died in 1831.
I know that my 2nd great-grandfather lived in Derrycastle. My Irish relatives even brought me to the property and showed me the house in 2004:
This may even have been the house of James’ father Philip.
Further I have that my ancestor James named his first son Philip. It was often customary for the father to name his first son after his father:
Here is the Philip Frazer genealogy from my Ancestry Tree:
YDNA Proves One of My Theories Wrong
I had written a Blog recently of how I felt that David fit into the Frazer tree and mentioned David above. It turns out that David tested at 23andMe and that company does a rough estimate of your YDNA. I found out very recently David’s YDNA haplogroup. The YDNA is very good at telling you what branch of mankind you are not in along with telling where you fit in. According to AI, there are now over 107,000 branches of YDNA.
David’s 23andMe estimate has him at R-S845. Here is what YFull, a YDNA analysis company shows:
This starts at the top right at “Genetic Adam”. Of importance along the way is the R1b Branch. R1b formed about 22,000 years ago according to YFull. The Frazer group that I belong to is from R1a which formed around the same time. That means that on the paternal only line, David and the North Roscommon, Ireland Frazers have a common ancestors also around that time – not closely related!
Here is SNP Tracker:
This shows that David’s paternal ancestors were likely in Ireland during Roman times.
Another interesting Haplogroup that David has is L21. This Haplogroup has been roughly associated with the Celtic peoples especially of Ireland, England and Scotland. If David was to do more YDNA testing, he would find out more about his paternal line.
For comparison, here is my known Frazer 2nd cousin at 23andMe:
Stan is my 2nd cousin. I am a Hartley and I come out as L21 (a closer match on my Hartley Line to David). Here is what YFull shows for R-L664:
The important difference is that my Frazer Line is from R1a as mentioned above. This R-L664 is still a pretty old Haplogroup going back 4,000 years or more. However, based on BigY testing at Family Tree DNA, we have Haplogroups that are much more recent:
At the bottom right is my second cousin Paul who I had tested and his 3rd cousin Rick. Their common ancestor is James Frazer born about 1804. The Haplogroup of R-Y85652 shows a common ancestor at about 1799 based on the YDNA testing alone.
Correcting the Frazer DNA Tree
When I had added LSW in 2020, I had noted that LSW did not have matches with the rest of the Philip Branch:
I also note that David has a good match with LSW, so for now, I will take off the George James Frazer Line from the Philip Branch.
I am now left with just the Johnston branch of the Philip Line.
Other Corrections
I can disconnect George James Fraser from my Ancestry Tree like this:
In Edit Relationships, I can just X out his mother and father. He will still be in my tree but not connected to my Frazer Line.
It does not look like I had added David’s matches to DNA Painter, so I do not to make any changes there.
Richard’s ThruLines
When I look at Richard’s ThruLines going back to his and my common ancestor of Philip Frazer, I see this:
Richard has his brother and Jeanette that he matches on the Philip Branch. Then he matches 7 people on the James Frazer Line where I am:
Richard matches sm and Gladys on the Richard Frazer Line.
On the George William Frazer Line, Richard matches me, my daughter, my sister, Karen and Mabel.
Richard’s Genealogy
One complicating factor is that Richard and I both have more than one Frazzer Line. Here is Richard’s Ancestry Tree:
Richard’s fourth great-grandfather was Philip Frazer born around 1776. This Philip is our common ancestor making Richard and me 5th cousins.
Richard also shows that he descends from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson:
However, I do not believe that I descend from that Line, so Richard and I would go back to the common ancestors of Archibald Frazer born about 1720 and Mary Lilley making us also 6th cousins.
Summary and Conclusions
- The Blog was a bit long, so I need to break it up
- I wrote a summary of where I see myself fitting into the Philip Frazer Line.
- I was surprised to see that David is not a direct Frazer descendant. At least, not on the the line that I am looking at from North Roscommon. However, having said that, there is still some DNA connection.
- One of my goals was to find out how David fit in to the Frazer Line. I found out based on his 23andMe YDNA Haplogroup that he does not fit in with my Frazer Line. David still may be interested in testing further on his YDNA Line to find out where his paternal line does fit in.
- Even though I had thought that David should have fit into the Frazer Line, it is good to have certainty in knowing that he does not fit in rather than wondering whether he does or does not fit in.
- I still have not looked closely into the Taylor Line. That will have to be in a later Blog.