I see that the last Blog I wrote on the YDNA of the Frazers of Roscommon was in 2023.
Why Is YDNA Important?
Autosomal DNA tests your matches to all lines going back in your family, but after a few generations the chances of matching dwindle:
YDNA testing is more laser specific. It will test the father to father to father line all the way down to what is called genetic Adam. When tested with other relatives, this will result in a YDNA Tree. In the case of Frazers, many have tested and there is already a tree at MyFTDNA:
Some things to note from the above Match Time Tree:
- The above tree came out as expected in 2023. However, I was interested in 2023 to look at the time estimates
- In the Match Time Tree above, I am represented by Paul, my 2nd cousin once removed who I had tested.
- All these 7 BigY testers are believed to descend from Frazers. From Warren on down (Haplogroup R-FT421618), these Frazers have Irish ancestry.
- Richard at the top of the list has American roots, so his Frazer ancestors probably came directly from Scotland perhaps around the time our ancestors moved from Scotland to Ireland:
- If FTDNA is correct, and the common ancestor between Richard and the Irish (County Roscommon) Frazers is from 1455, then Richard’s ancestors could have come directly from Scotland to America.
Further:
Our believed Irish Frazer Common Ancestor was Archibald Frazer born possibly around 1690. An earlier date of 1625 could mean that the genealogy is off or that the YDNA estimate is off. This could be due to the fact that the previous common ancestor was estimated to be born in 1455.
This date of 1799 is very close to the birth date for my ancestor James Frazer of 1804 based on his age at death. James Frazer is the common ancestor between Paul and Rick (see tree below).
Assuming the tree below is accurate, this suggests that Barker could descend from Archibald Frazer born 1792.
The estimated date for the common ancestor based on the BigY testing is 1869 compared to the genealogical date of 1836.
Here is a Tree I made for my last 2023 Frazer YDNA Blog:
However, this is subject to interpretation. As the Dingman Haplogroup goes all the way back to Archibald Frazer born about 1690, he could be theoretically from the James Line. Barker’s Haplogroup of R-Y151390 is the parent of R-FT521607. R-FT421607 represents Rodney and Jonathan who are known to be from the James Line of Frazers. However, notice that I do not have a genealogy for Barker as there were some questions on his genealogy. This is a case where the DNA testing is more clear than the genealogy.
DNA Relative David
I recently wrote a Blog based on autosomal DNA matching with David. Here is where I placed him on my Philip Frazer DNA Chart:
I believe that Philip Frazer at the top of tree was the son of another Philip Frazer who also had James Frazer born about 1804. This James was my ancestor. After talking to David, I suggested that taking a YDNA test would be helpful. David is important as he is the only known direct male Frazer/Fraser descendant on this Philip Line. Martha comes down from the Kennedys, Richard and Barry are from the Johnstons, Jeanette is also from the Johnstons, LSW is from the Watts and David is from the direct male Fraser/Frazer side. As a direct male Frazer descendant, he is the only known male eligible at this time for YDNA testing. None of the other people from the green tree above carry the Frazer YDNA.
David’s expected line is here:
I believe that David descends from Philip born 1800. David is a cautious genealogist which is commendable and is skeptical of his ancestry before George James Frazer born 1841 in Sligo.
It is difficult to predict the results, but here are some possibilities if David were to take the BigY test:
- If David comes out as Y85652, that would mean that Philip was the first person to have that Haplogroup and that there were no changes between Philip and son James. I think that this could be a likely scenario
- If David comes out with a new Haplogroup, that would mean that my ancestor James Frazer would have been the first to have Y85652.
- David’s results may also be helpful to Dingman and clarify his Haplogroup which is now the same as our first Irish Frazer Common ancestor, Archibald Frazer born about 1690.
Also note that now the Achibald Frazer Line (born about 1715) only has one new Haplogroup since the common ancestor of the whole Irish Frazer group. This is despite having three BigY tested peole on the Archibald Line. The James Line (born about 1720) has also three BigY tested people and has two new Haplogroups. This means that if David takes the BigY test, it is possible that we will find a new Haplogroup on the Archibald side.
Frazer STRs
I hesitate to mention Frazer STRs, but they are also a measure of YDNA. Some people like to ignore them as they can be difficult to interpret compared to the SNP part of YDNA. The reason for this is that values could go up or down over time and as we don’t know what happened with these STRs in past generations, they could lead to ambiguous conclusions. However, I think that STRs are important. MyFTDNA has a Fraser project with a small group (our group) of Frazers in a section called R1a1. Out of the over two thousand Frazers tested in the group, there are only 11 in the Frazer project in the R1a1 group:
My cousin Paul is 444958 and his third cousin once removed, Rick, is above Paul:
If David tests his YDNA, his STR profile should be similar to Paul and Rick’s. I believe that David is a fourth cousin to Paul.
Here are some of the 111 STR markers typically tested:
The third row is the median value. So the fourth marker has a median value of 10. Paul and Rick have a mutation to 11. It is possible that David could also have a value of 11 at this marker – highlighted in pink. The same for the last marker shown. The median value is 35-39. Paule and Rick have a value of 35-40 or an extra mutation at that marker.
Summary and Conclusions
- I was able to update a previous Blog from almost three years ago on YDNA from the Frazers of North Roscommon, Ireland
- The Time Tree at FTDNA came out as expected.
- I noted the dates for the common ancestors of the Haplogroups. These were generally fairly close to the actual common ancestors where those common ancestors were known.
- I focused some of David who is believed to be a Frazer descendant of the line from Philip Frazer born around 1775 down to his son Philip born about 1800.
- David is an excellent candidate for YDNA testing. His testing would show how he fits in to the Frazer family from North Roscommon, Ireland.
- I should note that David’s and my ancestors came from Sligo. That is because the area in Sligo that they came from was adjacent to North Roscommon.