I know that my 2nd great-grandfather was Greenwood Hartley. I know where he lived and where he is buried:
I know that Greenwood’s parents were Robert Hartley and Mary Pilling. Of the many Robert Hartleys born around the time of my ancestor, they seem to most or all be sons of James Hartley. I have this spreadsheet:
Naming Patterns
Robert and Mary’s children were Greenwood and Ann. Mary’s mother was Nancy. Nancy is a derivative of Ann, so Ann may have been named for Mary’s mother. Also Mary’s father was Greenwood, so that is presumably where Mary’s son name came from.
Normally the first son is named for the father’s father. In this case, Mary already had a son John prior to being married – perhaps named for her brother? Was Ann Hartley named for Nancy or did Robert also have a mother named Ann?
Here is a Robert born of an Ann:
From Robert’s age at death, I would expect he would have been born around 1804. Also, I am not aware of Baptists in the heritage, though Robert’s grandson James marries Ann Emmet in Bacup who was a baptist.
Here is an another Robert born of Ann and James:
Greenwood goes on to have two daughters and a son named James. It seems like James was a Hartley family name. This makes me think that Robert’s father was a James. If Robert’s mother was an Ann then this would be a good candidate for the parents of my Robert. Reedy Moor is to the NE of Colne, so a little way from Trawden.
My web page has Robert the son of James and Betty Baldwin:
Here is a James and a Mary having a Robert in 1804:
Here is the Betty from my web page:
The parents of Robert Hartley, my ancestor are unclear from naming patterns. Two generations later there is a James Hartley, so possibly named for his grandfather, but it appears probable that the father of Robert was a James anyway as the three candidates for the father of Robert close to when Robert should have been born were James.
Based on names alone, it would appear that James Hartley and Ann could have been the parents of my ancestor Robert Hartley. This is possibly further supported by the fact that Greenwood’s daughter was a Mary Ann. Mary could be for Mary Pilling and Ann possibly for the mother of Robert Hartley (or Nancy the mother of Mary Pilling).
If Robert’s mother was Betty the name never comes up again.
Here is Ann, daughter of Robert Hartley and Mary Pilling:
These children seem to go against conventional naming patterns. Normally, the first son is named for the father’s father which would be William. However, here the second son is named William. The first son is Joseph. Where does his name come from?
With a conventional naming pattern, Elijah would have named his first-born son after his father William. However, William is the second son. Was Joseph a Hartley family name? Ann does not name her first son for her father who was Robert. Plus, sadly, Ann was born after her father died so would have had no recollection of Robert. This is likely the baptism for Ann:
This leaves the possibility that Joseph Cockerill was named for a Joseph Hartley. Let’s assume also that Joseph was a brother of Robert. Here is a Joseph son of James and Grace:
This Joseph would have been about 14 years older than Robert. Here is a Joseph Hartley I have from an old spreadsheet of mine:
This Joseph is listed as 60, so he could have been born 1881 or before if the age is listed correctly. Here are the others living in his household:
Here we have an Antohony and John Hartley. Here is some more on Anthony:
Here is a Joseph born to a James and Ann Hartley in Waterside:
Here are two marriages with Joseph and Susan:
Folliwng the scenario that Joseph is Robert’s brother, that would mean that Robert and Ann have Joseph in Waterside in 1792, then move to Reedymore where they have Robert in 1804. Joseph possibly marries Susannah in 1810, but he is only 18. He then goes from weaver to farmer and we see him in the 1841 census at age 60.
James and Ann Hartley
Let me go with the theory that my ancestor Robert Hartley had for his parents James and Ann Hartley. Here are some marriage before the time of birth of Robert Hartley:
Note that there is a break of 29 years between the time when a James Hartley marries an Ann. The marriage to Ann Croysdale is interesting as the witness is Thomas Wilkinson. Robert Hartley’s widow Mary Pilling marries a Wilkinson. Also this James is a widower.
Adjusting My Family Tree
This will be a proposed tree. Right now I have the Bough Gap Robert Hartley in my tree:
I would like to change that to the Reed Moor Robert Hartley. One problem with what I have is that Ancestry keeps wanting to have Jane Shaw as the mother of Robert Hartley. I have that Jane Shaw is the mother of Robert Hartley’s second wife’s husband. To be on the safe side, I took out James’ parents also:
In this scenario, Greenwood’s sister Ann is named for her mother Ann, the wife of James Hartley.
More on Reedy Moor
In 2023, I wrote a Blog on Hartley ThruLines. At that time, I had assumed that John Hartley and Anne Bracewell were my ancestors. Also that Nancy Hartley was a daughter of John and Anne:
In the first column, I noted that Michael Lee lived in Reedy Moor according to the 1841 Census. This may be a coincidence or a clue that I am on the right track.
Some “New” ThruLines
These are based on my choice of Ann as a possible mother of Robert Hartley and wife of James Hartley:
Here at the 5th Great-grandparent level I have Robert Halstead and Ann Nancy Edmondson.
Ancestry computers think that, based on my inclusion of an Ann, she may be the daughter of Robert Halstead and Ann Edmondson. This is interesting as the last marriage I have above of James Hartleys and Anns is to an Ann Halstead.
Here are my ThruLines for potential ancestor Robert Halstead:
Here is the marriage record for Robert and Ann:
Lee has been an interesting match because he has Hartley ancestors and Trawden ancestors. So, what if the connection between myself and Lee is not with Hartley but with Halstread?
Rechecking the Connection between Lee and Me
Here is part of Lee’s tree:
Notice that the tree shows Margaret Hartley as the daughter of Lawrence Halstead and Mary Hartley. This implies that Margaret did not take her father’s name. At the time I wrote my last Blog about Lee in 2018, Lee did not have parents for Margaret Hartley.
Here is a potential baptism for Margaret Hartley:
Here are some Margarets and Marys from the 1841 Census:
The ones that seem to match up are in the household of John Hartley. Then the John Hartley of Lanehouse seems to match.
Unfortunately, there was more than one John Hartley head of household in Lanehouse:
This John appears to be the wife of Susan and father of Margaret.
Here is another John Hartley in Lanehouse:
He looks to be the father of Mary Hartley.
Here is the ThruLine between Lee and myself:
Lee’s tree is a little different than that shown here. Lee has Robert as the father of Lawrence Halstead.
Here is where Lee has Lawrence in 1841:
This Robert was living in Worsthorn:
Worsthorne is right below Briercliffe (outlined in red dashes) where another Lawrence Halstead was living in 1841:
He was with an older Wiliam Halstead. Here is the previous page:
This Lawrence was living with the Watson family.
Here are the two Lawrences:
If Lawrence was born in 1813, then he must be the son of William Halstead and Nanny. Also Briercliffe is closer to Trawden than Worsthom – but not by much.
Summary and Conclusions
- Previously, I had assumed that James Hartley married a Betty Baldwin and had my ancestor Robert Hartley in 1803. An argument in favor of this is that this Robert was born in Trawden. An argument against is that there were no Bettys in the Hartley family
- In this Blog, I assume that James Hartley married and Ann and had Robert. The reasoning was that there were other Anns in the Hartley family. However, it is not clear whether they were named for the Hartley or Pilling side.
- When I added an Ann as the mother of Robert Hartley, an interesting ThruLine came up showing that if there was an Ann, then it could have been Ann Halstead. Ann Halstead is interesting as there was a James Hartley and Ann Halstead who married in the Colne Church in 1803.
- One ThruLine was for Lee who had a Halstead ancestor. I tried to replicate his genealogy, but there was a single mother event in the mix and I was unsure how Lee found out who the Halstead father was.
- I plan to do more reasearch on the Halstead line to see if the connection makes sense.