Category: DNA General

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More Frazer Clusters from Gladys

Gladys is a Frazer relative here:

Gladys’ great-grandfather Richard was the brother of my 2nd great-grandfather George Frazer. In my previous Blog, my thinking was that if I used Gladys for clusters, I would get better or older matches. Also these clusters would likely eliminate some of the McMaster Matches as my 2nd great-grandfather married a McMaster.

I chose as a person of interest Mabel for Gladys’ clusters:

Here is Cluster 3. This discovered my family even though they were not explixitly included in the inputs to the cluster:

Jonathan is my brother and the rest are my siblings, my niece, my nephew, my two children and myself. This suggests that of my siblings who have tested at Ancestry, Jonathan should have the most Frazer DNA and I should have the least.

Cluster 4 for Gladys

This cluster has just one more match than the pink cluster above, but my family are now out of the cluster:

I noticed that Zara was a new match. She is also the daughter of Susan:

I’ll assume that Susan knew who her mother and grandmother were. This is Susan’s maternal line from her Ancestry Tree:

It turns out I already had Susan:

I got a little confused. This is an older Richard Frazer Line. The 1830 Richard and the 1852 Richard must have been named for the 1700’s Richard.

I looked at the lower right cluster but could not see an easy connection to any of my identifiable ancestors.

Cluster 5 for Gladys

This looks like two major clusters with perhaps some clusters within the clusters.

I recognize Jane in the major 2nd cluster. Jane and Siddon descend from Richard Frazer born perhaps 1777. I also descend from that line but from Violet Frazer who married James Frazer. So that should be the two major clusters above. First Violet and then Archibald born 1804 – both children of Richard.

 

The last cluster had 60 matches. This expanded things far out:

This one gives me a bit of a headache.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Using Gladys and Mabel to cluster gives some more detail on the different Frazer Lines
  • However, because Gladys is a bit removed from me at 3rd cousin once removed, the results are more obscure than ideal.
  • Ancestry suggests using someone in the 2nd cousin range. I think that makes sense.

 

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Ancestry’s Expanded Clusters and Frazers

I would like to see what there is of the new expanded Clusters at Ancestry on my Frazer Line. Here are some choices to cluster with:

Mabel is not my closest match by DNA, but she is my closest Frazer relative. George Frazer married a McMaster, so some of them should show up.

Creating a Custom Cluster with Mabel

First, I chose Mabel as a person of interest. The I added a few more Frazer relatives good matches. This gave me 6 custom clusters:

Here is the first 7 match cluster:

Matthew, Mabel and Faye are on my ThruLines.

I see that John’s DNA is managed by Dawn. She has a tree and her father appears to be John:

John is already on my Frazer DNA Tree:

Rebecca is on my tree. She descends from the branch that returned to Ireland from Massachusetts.

Whitney is on my tree already. She descends from my great-grandfather’s brother Richard Frazer.

That leaves Stephen. According to my shared matches, Whitney is his niece. Here, I added in Stephen next to Lisa on my Frazer DNA Tree:

I also added Stephen to my Ancestry Tree.

I was able to place each person in that cluster, so that is good.

The next 8 person cluster adds one more Matthew:

Strangely, Matthew is in the cluster and not his mother Karen. That must be because he shares more DNA with me than his mother. That makes me want to add in Matthew on my Frazer DNA tree:

This was the branch that went back to Ireland.

Frazer Cluster 3

The previous cluster is on the bottom but a few people dropped out of it. The new people are on the top.

Gladys is easily identifiable:

Gladys brings us back a generation on the Frazer tree. Richard Frazer was one of my earliest finds by DNA. In other words, he was discovered first through a DNA match from one of his descendants and then connected by genealogy. It is clear that it will be more difficult to get all the relatives at this level of relationship.

Kathryn and Others in the Cluster

Kathryn has no tree, but it is clear from shared matches that she is also from the Richard Frazer Branch. I sent an email to see if she has any information on her tree.

I looked at all others and they were in the same group – descending from Richard Frazer. However, I could not figure out easily how they fit in easily. Here is what I have now on my Frazer DNA Tree from the Richard Branch:

Cluster 4 and 5

Cluster 4 is very similar to Cluster 3, so I’ll skip to Cluster 5:

The top three are on the McMaster side.

mtrent is on my McMaster DNA Tree already as son of Robert Trent:

Here is BV:

As far as the bottom right group in Cluster 5, I am not sure. Clif is related to Gladys, who descends from Richard Frazer, but there is another connection that I cannot identify.

Cluster 6

Cluster 6 just adds some more matches to the groups:

The DNA is likely messed up as Frazers married Frazers, McMasters married McMasters and Frazers married McMasters. Also, some of my Frazer ancestors do not have the spouses identified. That makes for some genealogial uncertainty.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It was interesting to see how my Frazer ancestors grouped together in clusters
  • Matches were either easy or difficult to identify
  • The easy matches were already in my Frazer or McMaster DNA trees
  • I feel like some of my other siblings or matches have better DNA connections to the Frazer family, so it may be best to use them in the future. For example, Gladys would be a good choice as she is a generation older than me on the chart and I can access her DNA results.

 

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Hartley Genealogy and Playing with Ancestry’s Custom Clusters

Quite a while back, I took a sample from my father’s cousin to get a better representative sample of Hartley DNA. I will look at Joyce’s custom clusters. In the past, I have built a Hartley/Bracewell Tree on the assumption that that could be the correct genealogy:

The tree looks promising in that it is large, but I have trouble proving the genealogy. The part that is proved is on the Burrows > Rasmussin Line:

This gets the common ancestors back to Hartley and Emmet. The common matches also filter out the large number of Snell relatives. Kristen has a good match to Joyce, so would be a good pick for custom clusters:

A Custom Cluster between Joyce and Kristen

There are 4 small clusters. The first cluster:

This has Kristen and Emily who have been identified, but also Jennifer who I have been unable to place. The next cluster:

Zachary and Rachael are related to Jennifer. They are niece and nephew. I do see from previous correspondence that Jennifer’s father was John Williams:

Jennifer’s father or grandfather could be the John B Williams born in 1906. Here is the family in 1906 in Fall River:

But perhaps that is the wrong family. This is John A. Here is John B. Williams in 1940:

This could be the same family if John Williams remarried. This is John Burroughs Williams in October, 1940:

Here is 291 Maple Street:

Earlier in the year, the family lived here:

I won’t clear up where Jennifer fits in, but it is clear it is part of the Williams’ family.

Here is the next Cluster:

Kristen is the match in common with the others.  Ruth fits in on the Pilling family:

Mary was a single mother, so that means I do not know who the father of John Pilling was. Perhaps that adds some uncertainty to the Cluster. [Actually, it would not, as I do not desend from the unknown father of John Pilling.]

Here is the last cluster:

I guess that Emily down and to the right is a Pilling Cluster. That means that Sheryl up and to the left could be a Hartley Cluster. Interestingly, Sheryl’s match shows this:

In this Blog, I questioned the connetion shown above. That leaves me with confusing DNA and confusing genealogy.

Maurey and Kristen

Another of my father’s cousins has tested his DNA at Ancestry. I can try the same shared clusters with Kristen as I did for Joyce. This resulted in three clusters. I’ll skip to the third:

Derek and Ruth are on the Pilling Line. Jane and Catherine are related on the more recent Hartley/Snell Lines.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Questions on Jennifer’s ancestry lead me to previous enquiries which revealed that Jennifer is the daughter of John Williams. However, is this the John born in 1906? There is some confusion on the genealogy in that line.
  • I have questions on Hartley genealogy and DNA. How do the Pilling and Emmet Lines fit in as well as Hartleys?
  • There are other lines in there that should fit in but cannot be placed.
  • Overall, it is helpful to observe the arrangement of families in the clusters. This may result in some fresh thinking on the problems in the genealogy.

 

 

 

 

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Updating My Children’s Maternal DNA and Genealogy: Part 2

In my previous Blog, I updated my daughter’s DNA profile using DNA Painter. I can do the same for my son using Gedmatch. I have a maternal profile for JJ at Gedmatch. JJ’s match with his second cousin Robert at Gedmatch looks like this:

This match goes back to their maternal great-grandparents:

These grandparents are Jarek and Wozniak and represent JJ’s Polish side.

Mapping this to JJ’s maternal side gives him a huge increase from 16% to 22% mapped or painted as per above. However, most of the matches are on the Polish side. Only one is on the Cavanaugh (really Warren) and Morrow side.

JJ at MyFTDNA

In order to look at JJ’s results, I need to update his password. JJ has 130 matches in common with Martha who is the Warren/Morrow match. I can check some of the Autosomal Transfer matches to see if any of those are on Ancestry. Here are some top transfer matches to JJ:

Unfortunately, Ancestry is not working right now.

JJ at Gedmatch

I went through many of the matches with trees. I found this match:

Louis has a wiki tree:

Here I see the Tacy/Tessier Line which is in my children’s ancestry. I would like to see if I can find a genealogical connection. If there is a connection, it must be quite old. According to WikiTree:

Here is the tree I have:

There is a connection on Jean Baptiste Tessier. Here is some information from WikiTree:

Louis’ tree has Jacques Tessier as his ancestor. My tree has JJ’s ancestor as Jean-Baptiste Tessier. Louis also has Richard Tacy as an ancestor. He gives his birthplace as Helena, New York in 1859:

Here is Helena:

Here is JJ’s family in nearby Fort Covington in 1860:

Here is JJ’s tree:

I can draw a tree to see how it looks. This is the tree I have now:

It seems odd to add three generations to an already long tree. There appear to be possibilities:

  • The connection to the 1600’s is correct
  • The connection is on another line
  • The genealogy may be wrong on one of the lines.

The other odd thing seems to be that Tessier would change to Tacy in two lines that are about 6 generations apart. Perhaps this was just the standard name change at the time. As I look at it, it is possible there is a Boudria connection also, so I will keep Louis off my Tessier DNA Tree for now.

Updating Maternal Trees by JJ

It appears that the Walter Line of my Jarek Tree has many missing matches. Here are JJ’s ThruLines for Walter:

Here is what I have:

Here is the update under Walter:

Kristina

Kristina does not show a common ancestor at Ancestry as she does not have a linked tree. I don’t see her on my Jarek DNA tree, but she shows a Jarek in her tree on her maternal side:

As this is her maternal side, that must mean that Kristina must be either a cousin or sister to Seth. I should be able to figure that out by shared matches. I’ll sort Kristina and JJ’s matches by those closest to Kristina. Seth shows up as Kristina’s 1st cousin or half uncle.

Seth must be a first cousin to Kristina.

JJ and Susan

JJ and Susan are 2nd cousins. And a lot of Kristina’s children have tested at Ancestry:

Here we see Kristina is a daughter, so I will go with that:

Next, I see that cat is a sister to Isabelle:

I have to pay to see these shared matches, so I may as well use them.

Charlotte and JJ

Charlotte and JJ are in the 2nd cousin range:

Using Shared matches again, I see that she is the daughter of Laurie:

So far, pretty easy for these 2nd cousin level relatives.

Richard and JJ

Richard has Polish ancestry:

Ancestry thinks the connection should be in the 2nd couisn range, but that does not seem possible. It seems like the connection should be here:

This tree in my hints has Joesf Jarek :

I believe that these two places are the same place. Ordrzykon is in SE Poland:

Here is Zarnowiec:

Lea maintains Richard’s tree. Here is another tree by Lea:

Here is JJ’s tree:

My conclusion is that Weronica Dziuria born 1861 is the sister of Anna Dziuria born 1869.

A Dziuria DNA Tree

I gave this tree a different look. JJ and Richard are third cousins once removed. According to Ancestry, Richard and JJ could be as close as 2nd cousins once removed. But the chance that they are 3rd cousins once removed is 13%:

This could also mean that Richard and JJ connect on other Polish lines. I would like to note that I do not have evidence currently that Anna Dziuria was the sister of Weronika, but the DNA strongly suggests that.

Now that I have made this change, it seems that Ancestry has changed.

New Dziuria ThruLines

Here are Richard and Beverly:

Lea seems to be the driving force behind the DNA and genealogy in the family:

The only issue seems to be that the DNA levels are higher than should be expected for the relationship of 3rd cousin once removed, 4th cousin and 4th cousin once removed. That means that there may be other connections. However, this is the earliest and only connection that I see right now.

Further DNA Proof for the Dziuria Tree?

I can now see special Clusters at Ancestry. Perhaps this will help. I will choose Richard as a match of interest:

Then I chose JJ’s sister, Robert who represents Jarek and Lea who represents Dziuria. Perhaps I didn’t have to choose Lea. That gave me this:

Next, I will try with just Richard. Actually, I chose Robert by mistake. He represents all the Polish relatives:

For some reason, I do not see Richard on this list. Next, I will choose Richard, but lower the upper limit to 150 cM as JJ matches Richard by 125 cM:

The 19 match cluster is interesting:

Here I see two clusters within this cluster. Richard of interest is about two thirds down the list. The first cluster has a lot of Lea’s family in it. In the second cluster, the last Richard has a good tree:

He shows that his mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was a Wozniak.

The 27 Match Cluster

This one is intersting:

Here I see two major clusters, but Richard does not seem to match the cluster in the lower right. It turns out that Liz has a great tree:

Liz has the Such family on her paternal side:

JJ’s third great-granmother was Marii Such:

This must be the connection. From another tree, I see that Joseph Jarek was born in 1841. That means that Marii Such could be a sister of Michal.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Of the major DNA companies, Ancestry is the easiest to work with
  • I was able to build a new Dziuria tree based on DNA matches mostly, but also previous genealogy I had done on my children’s Dziuria Line
  • I see that Ancestry has now made their Clusters more flexible taking the level down to 20 cM. This resulted in findin

 

 

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Updating My Children’s Maternal DNA and Genealogy

I see that the DNA profiles for my children’s DNA matches is a out of date. Here is my daughter’s maternal profile:

Heather is only 15% identified and of these there are only three common ancestor choices. The blue match is Marti:

This is the one non-Polish match mapped. I am more interested in my children’s maternal side as I already know about their paternal side.

Here is my son’s profile:

JJ has one more ancestral couple mapped compared to Heather. I changed some of the colors.

How to Get More DNA Mapped for My Children?

The places to get matches are at FTDNA, MyHeritage and Gedmatch. I don’t have my children tested at 23andMe and Ancestry does not support DNA mapping. I’ll start with FTDNA which is the only place to get information on the X Chromosome. This route was not easy, so I tried Gedmatch. There, I have Heather’s kit split into a maternal and paternal kit. Here is a match on her maternal side:

This is the ideal match, as I can easily find it at Ancestry. Ancestry even shows the common ancestors:

This match represents all Heather’s Polish matches. This is the information I give to DNA Painter to paint the match:

This brings Heather up to 19% painted on her maternal side:

The last two entries in the key represent my children’s maternal grandparents:

These are Jarek and Cavanaugh. However, going back, Cavanaugh is really Warren. On the maternal side, less is known about the Cavanaugh/Warren side.

In Common with Martha

At FTDNA, I can run an in common with Martha. Martha is on the Cavanaugh/Warren side. I found 155 matches in common between Heather and Martha, but it is difficult to see how they may be related. So the disconnect is that Martha is on FTDNA, but it is difficult to find other easily identifiable matches that are in common with Heather.

Not in Common with Robert

I had an idea. I can go to Gedmatch and look for matches that do not match Robert. Those maternal matches of Heather should be on the Cavanaugh/Warren side.

Here are some of the ones that match Heather and Robert:

Here are some of the ones that match Heather:

I take these to be the non-Polish matches, though the first match is Robert. Next, I need to track down any of these that are on Ancestry. One has a tree. Let’s start with Betty. I think this is Betty’s tree from Ancestry:

Unfortunately, I do not see the connection. However, Suzanne is a shared match between Heather and Betty at Ancestry:

Gatley is on the Cavanaugh/Warren side, so this makes sense. Here is another of Heather’s matches:

Some Gatley Genealogy

Next, I should try to evaluate the Gatley connection. I see that my son also has a Gatley connection:

I’ll start with Patrick. There is some confusion as to where his father, John Joseph was born, but his draft card gives the birth places as Yonkers, New York:

John’s grandmother’s name is from this death certificate:

Here is the birth information:

I’ll choose Ellen for Henry’s mother’s name as it is the older record.

The 1901 Census for Hamilton City seems important:

This gives a birth date and place for Ellen or Helen.

Ellen Hardman

From the 1901 Census, we see that Ellen’s first 4 children were born in England. This tells me that the couple was likely married in England not too long before 1880. Also the family must be on the 1881 Census. This must be the family in Warrington:

John was Irish and a wire drawer as in Ontario. Further, this shows that Ellen was born in Warrington:

It looks like I have gone off track. I should have been tracking Lillian Hardman.

Oops, Lilly Fee

Here is Lilly’s Naturalization Record:

It turns out that Lily was also from Warrington. She was born there in 1897 and married in 1920. I assume that marriage was in Winnipeg. The birth place of John Joseph is still a mystery.

Child Newman Henry identifies Lily as a Hardman:

According to this record, the couple married in Warrington:

The picture of Lily’s life is coming into focus. But maybe not. This marriage is in Winnipeg:

Here is Warrington in 1901:

All does not appear to be well as mother Elizabeth is listed as a widowed charwoman and there is a male boarder living in the house. I assume this is Great Sankey:

This appears to be the family in 1891:

Father Thomas is a Tanner and Eliza is a Fustian Cutter.

This appears to be the marriage:

Here is the 1871 Census. Elizabeth’s father had already passed away:

Here is James in 1861:

Next, I need to see if this James is the same as the one I have in my tree.

Two James Gatleys?

Here is the James I already have in my tree:

He is born in Salford and dies in Fall River in 1881.

The James that I am looking at above:

He is born also in 1821 but in Martin Croft.

Checking Heather’s Gatleys

Perhaps these Gatleys will link up better.

Here is Suzanne’s tree:

 

Her tree matches with the one I have (assuming I have it right):

I’ll accept the hints for Suzanne’s grandparents on the Harris line to save time. Here is a birth record for one of the Harris boys:

Here is Middlesbrough:

Here is Thomas in 1921:

Here is the family in 1911 living with the in-laws:

Here is the marriage:

Frederick dies in WWI.

I am interested in Frederick’s mother. Here is young Frederick in 1881:

Mother Mary Ann is born in Manchester. I assume that this is the couple’s marriage banns in 1866:

The 1871 Census has Mary Ann born in Salford and some of her children born in Warrington.

Here is Mary Ann’s baptismal record from Manchester Cathedral:

Here is the 1861 Census:

Mary Ann’s parents are born in Salford and Waterford, Ireland. When I search for a marriage for this couple, I get this:

I tend to think that this is right, as James is listed as a Fustian Cutter. Here is Eccles, which is right near Salford:

When I turn the page of the 1861 Census, I see this:

Here is Jane Gatley – perhaps the mother of James Gatley. She is listed as being born in Warrington.

This is likely the baptism of James Gatley:

After looking at many records, I would say that the ThruLines are correct.

A First Gatley DNA Tree

This shows that my children are 5th cousins with Suzanne.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The Blog got a bit long which was unavoidable due to adequately checking out genealogies.
  • There are two second cousins on my children’s maternal side. One represents the Polish side and the other represents the non-Polish or Irish/English side.
  • The ThruLine for JJ is incorrect as shown, though there may be a Gatley connection further back in time for him.
  • Due to a correct ThruLine for Heather, I was able to draw my first Gatley DNA Tree
  • I also added some DNA to DNA Painter on the Polish side for my children.

 

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More DNA Evidence for My Childrens’ Warren Ancestry

I have that my two children descend from Jeremiah Warren:

From Ancestry ThruLines for my daughter:

 

This shows a DNA connection between children of Bridget Warren and John J  Warren.

Here is a Warren DNA Tree I built in 2020:

Mary is a new DNA match to the tree since 2020.

Adding Mary to My Tree?

Ancestry suggest that I evaluate Mary’s tree. Here is what Mary has:

I only need connect Mary back to Francis J. Sullivan. Here is the family in 1910:

Here are the children I already had for Frank J. Sullivan:

Notice this is the same family due to Blanche, Henry and Russell Sullivan. That means that Douglas Sullivan must be George Douglas Sullivan, the great-grandfather of Mary. The Roman Catholic records show Douglas’ full name:

The Massachusetts records only have him as Douglas:

Next, we need the connection from Douglas to Mary’s grandfather.

Frank passes away in 1917:

George is a single truck driver for the City of Lowell in 1930:

Here is Mary’s grandfather Jerry in 1950:

Jerold appears to have been in the Navy:

Here, I have added Mary to my Warren DNA Tree:

A Tale of Two John Cavanaughs

All the DNA connection is important as there is some confusion between two John Cavanaughs in Lowell. I previously set out the genealogy of my children in this 2019 Blog.

My Childrens’ John Cavanaugh

This John was born in 1880 to John Warren and Louisa Kavanaugh:

As stated in the Roman Catholic record, he was illegitimate. This John went by John Warren sometimes and John Cavanaugh at other times. Here is his marriage record:

Despite going by John Cavanaugh, he chooses to use his birth name at the time of his marriage in 1911.

The Mistaken John Cavanaugh

The mistaken John Cavanaugh was born about 10 years earlier than my children’s’ John.

The people in this neighborhood of Lowell worked in a bleachery.

Confusingly, the two Johns were also half brothers according to my research:

The chronology is that Louisa Gatley marries Michael Cavanaugh. They have two children, but Michael dies in 1872. Louisa then has a child with widower John Warren who already has a family. John Warren drowns two years later. Massachusetts records list John’s death as ‘accidental drowning’. However, he had two half siblings who were Cavanaughs.

More on DNA and Shared Matches

So far, Mary has supported my genealogy showing that my children’s great-grandfather was actually a Warren and not a Cavanaugh. Eileen is Heather’s closest match for the Jeremiah Warren ThruLines:

On Heather’s Shared Match list, Eileen and Mary share 72 cM. Also I see a Kevin who is Mary’s father.

Summary and Conclusions

I have not reviewed the Warren ThruLines for many years. Now there are a few more matches. Some are on the ThruLines and some are not. The matches support my assertion that my children do not technically descend from a Cavanaugh Line but from a Warren Line.

 

 

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Looking for Parents for Robert Hartley born in Colne Parish 1803-1804: Part 2

A few Blogs ago, I had shown the possible births of my ancestor Robert Hartley:

  1. Betty was my choice on my Hartley web page. I had also guessed that Betty Baldwin was the Betty. On the plus side the couple was from Trawden. However, the Betty name did not get passed down in the family. Perhaps because she died young?
  2. This Robert lived in Reedy Moor.

The faint red arrow near the word ‘Tunnel’ is where Reedy Moor Line. This is a little way from Trawden. However, the name Ann comes down in the family as the only daughter of Robert Hartley

3. Bough Gap is in an area near Trawden.

In order to give this Robert a chance, I will have to change his birth date and place in my Ancestry Tree. This is what I currently have:

I was a little unsure as to how to enter Bough Gap as it appearst to be part of Winewall which is part of Trawden.

Next, I wait to see if any ThruLines appear. My mistake in my earlier Blog, was that I did not change the birth of Robert Hartley on my family tree. I also need to remove the old birth reference that I had:

Re-Playing Out the James and Mary Scenario

Here are potential marriages for James Hartley and Mary

  • Mary Holmes would be around 44 when she had Robert if she was 20 when she married
  • The James Mary Stansfield married was a weaver. However, I suppose there were many Hartley weavers
  • The James that Mary Berry married was a widower
  • A witness for the marriage of Mary Robinson was John Shackleton. Mary Pilling’s mother was a Shackleton. Mary Pilling’s grandfather was named John Shackleton.

Based on the above, I am leaning toward Mary Robinson in this scenario. Here are some baptisms for Mary Robinson:

None of these place names sound familiar. Here is Barrowford:

I must say that ‘ye Call’ and other locations sound mysterious, but I do not know where that is.

Bough Gap Robert, Son of James and Mary Hartley

I think I now have what I was trying to achieve in my previous Blog:

It looks like it took a while to baptize this Robert. He was born in May and baptized in July:

I have left Robert’s mother vagues in my Tree as just Mary and the father is James Hartley.

ThruLines Compared

I can only look at ThruLines for DNA testers that I have access to. An important testers is my father’s cousin Joyce.

Joyce has only one ThruLine for Helen and that is through William who I supposed would be a son of James and Betty, so that doesn’t really count.

However another of my father’s cousins who has a tree showing Betty Baldwin as the mother of Robert fares no better:

Here the extra Robert Hartley Line should be a Pilling Line.

MM’s ThruLines do better a generation earlier where the tree has John Hartley as the father of James:

Here MM has four ThruLines. This could mean that:

  • John is right, but Betty Baldwin is wrong
  • James and Betty Baldwin had few children
  • Going back a generation gives the chance of there being more Hartleys to have ThruLines for even though they are wrong.

The other two ThruLies are Brian and Sue:

I like the chances of John Hartley being a Hartley ancestor based on the DNA matches of my father’s cousin Maury.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Due to the number of Robert Hartleys from the area of Trawden around the birth of my ancestor Robert Hartley in about 1803, it is difficult to try to find out which Robert is which.
  • My father’s cousin Maury’s DNA administered by his daughter has a genealogy which includes John Hartley and Ann or Anna Bracewell.
  • This couple appears to have a good series of DNA matches.
  • If this John Hartley is indeed my ancestor and had a large family, that could account for the number of DNA matches.
  • If this John had a son James who had a small family or a smaller number of descendants who had their DNA tested, this could account for a smaller number of descendant DNA matches.
  • It may make sense to try to start with John Hartley and Anna Bracewell as the grandparents of Robert Hartley and try to fill in the middle with a likely son James being the father of Robert Hartley.

 

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A Sketch of Ann Hartley Cockrill Born 1835

I have not looked into the life of Ann Hartley Cockrill for some time. This is what I have on my Hartley Web Page:

Sadly, Ann’s father Robert dies before she is born.

Here is the burial record for her father Robert:

Interestingly, at the time of Ann’s birth her father’s occupation is given as weaver even though he was already dead. Ann may have been named for Mary Pilling’s mother Nancy or possibly from Robert’s mother. However, Robert’s mother has not yet been nailed down.

In 1837, Mary Pilling Hartley and her son John get baptized at the Weslyan Weslyan Chapel in Trawden:

Greenwood and Ann were been baptized at the Colne Church, so no need for them to be re-baptized in 1837. I believe that the Weslyan Chapel is also known as Skipton Road Weslyan Methodist:

This photo is from Genuki:

A little less than 2 years later, Mary Pilling Hartley marries Robert Wilkinson, a widower.

This results in a large blended family as Mary had a child before marrying Robert Hartley. Here is the 1841 Census for Trawden:

As the Census was held on June 6, Ann would not have technically been 6 yet. This shows that Ann had a half sister Mary who was her same age. At this point, Mary Pilling Hartley Wilkinson has 5 children of her own and 5 step children. Here is Hollin Hall where the blended family lived from a book by Jack Greenwood:

In 1851, 10 years later, the family is living at Underbank, Bacup:

Ann and her older brother Greenwood were power loom weavers as was their step father Robert Wilkinson.

Now it is time for Ann Hartley to get married. I have that she married at Christ Church Bacup on 26 June 1858. The couple were living at Underbank, Bacup in 1861:

Ann has two sons:

Joseph is baptized at Bacup, Wesley Place Methodist Chapel:

I see his birth place as Scarbottom also known as Scar End Hey. This location appears to be in Weir:

This is just North of Underbank:

Underbank is below Broad Clough on the right side of the red road which runs North and South.

In 1873, a second son is born:

He carries the name of Ann’s brother who has left for Massachusetts with his family about 4 years prior to this time. Here is where the Church was:

Here is the family in 1881:

The Census appears to say they live at Newline. That must be this street:

Here is some specific burial information for Ann:

When I look up Bacup Cemetery:

This could be a future destination:

I assume that Ann would be in the Church of England Section D. However, the record above mentions Unconsecrated Ground, so perhaps she was in General D. According to the internet:

People paying for 1st and 2nd class areas for their burial were able to choose the specific plot they wanted. The 3rd class had no choice where they were allocated. There are usually fewer headstones in the third class area because people could not afford to pay for them.

So there may not be much to see if I were to visit there.

Life After Ann for the Cockrill Family and an Ulterior Motive

The ulterior motive is that it would be nice to find a descendant of Ann Hartley Cockrill who has tested for DNA.  In the light of this motive, I did a search for Elijah Cockrill in Ancestry trees. I found this one which was interesting:

This tree was for Roland and he shows Cockerell on his maternal side. However, I do not have a record of Elijah and Ann having a daughter born. This Alice would have been born 4 years before the couple married and does not show up on the Census. Although there are 25 trees with Elijah Cockrill, some appear wrong, for people I already know about who are related in other ways (such as Pilling only) or they have Elijah on collateral lines.

Elijah Cockrill After Ann

Here is Elijah in 1891:

Elijah has a new wife, Mary from Stockport in Chesire. The first three in the family are listed as cotton weavers and William is a woolen weaver. They are living on Westmoreland Street in Great and Little Marsden, Nelson, Lancashire. Here is what Google shows for that location if I have it right:

The door on the right is 37, so I assume that #35 is to the left of that door.

This was not far from Colne and Trawden.

This marriage record must be correct:

This appears to say that Elijah’s father was a gentleman. I do not think that is correct. Here is Elijah’s burial record:

He apparently died at the location in the Google Map Photo above and was buried at the same Section and number as his former wife Ann Hartley.

I see also his name is spelled a bit differently in the burial record.

Joseph Cockrill Born 1870

Here is a summary of his life up to his marriage:

Here are the couple on Gordon Road, Nelson in 1901:

Perhaps coincidentally, in the previous listing is a John Wilkinson from Trawden. Josesph is on 13 Gordon Road, not far from Westmoreland Street:

This is Gordon Road in current times:

I can fill this out a bit:

The 1921 Census reveals a problem:

Ada has passed away and Joseph and Alec are living with Ada’s brother. I could not find a 41 Whitchall Street in Nelson, but there is a listing for Whitehall Street:

It looks like both Joseph and his brother were in the wood business, but also may have been out of work. Interestingly, Joseph had worked for H Hartley.

Here is Joseph in 1939:

I think this is Henley to the West of London:

Alec Llewellyn Cockrill Born 1907

I have not found any evidence that Alec had any children.

He appears to be living with one of his wife’s relatives in 1939:

William Greenwood Cockrill Born 1873

Ann perhaps missed her brother Greenwood who had been gone for 4 years at this time. William had a shorter life than Alec:

Here is where William passed away in 1929:

William has two children, so more chances of descendants. I wonder if there is any significance in the name William. Traditionally, the mother’s second son could reflect her father’s heritage. Elijah’s father was William, so that name was probably for Elijah’s father and Greenwood for Ann’s paternal side. Which makes me wonder where the first born Joseph’s name came from.

Tom Widdup Cockrill Born 1905

Here is a nice photo from Ancestry:

Here is the 1921 Census:

One tree I found shows this:

Tom has three daughters who marry and have offspring. This appears to be a good place to look for DNA matches.

Vesta Irene Cockrill Born 1909

From what little information I have, it appears that Vesta ended up in Australia:

She apparently marries Harold Howarth:

Here father has passed away but her brother Tom is a witness.

In 1939, Harold is a tobaccanist dealer in Rochdale, Lancashire:

Harold dies in 1951:

It is unclear why Vesta moves to Australia. Perhaps because of her son? Here is Vesta in 1977:

Frank is possibly a son?

Here is Rockingham near Perth in Western Australia:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I recommend researching collateral lines. It is interesting in itself, but may also lead to interesting DNA matches.
  • Ann Hartley born 1835 does not appeaer to have many descendants. I have not found any that have taken a DNA test. Those descendants would probably be 4th cousins to me.
  • I found it interesting that Ann Hartley’s husband remarries, but then is buried where Ann was buried in Bacup. It would be nice to visit the Cemetery if I ever get a chance.

 

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Looking for Parents for Robert Hartley born in Colne Parish 1803-1804

In my last Blog, I was looking at Mary Heap as a possible mother for Robert Hartley born in Colne Parish about 1803-1804. I realized that she was married too early to be a good candidate.

Here is the possible birth for my ancestor Robert Hartley:

This is the possible marriage of the couple above:

I see that I have added possiblilty to possibility, but I have not many choices here. The question is, why would James have married Mary Berry from the Parish of Kildwick?

Joyce and Kildwick

When I choose my father cousin Joyce’s maternal matches and search for ancestors from Kildwick, I get about 68 matches. This seems unusual to me. According to Wickipedia, Kildwick had a population of  194 in 2011. As a comparison, I will check to see how many matches Joyce has with ancestral connections to Trawden. Joyces has 65 matches on her maternal side. However, that includes a lot of closer relatives who know they have Robert Hartley in their ancestry from Trawden. Also Trawden had a 2011 population of 2,765 which is over 10 times that of Kildwick. Either this is a huge coincidence or I may have Kildwick ancestors. However, the actuala Parish of Kildwick was much larger. According to Wikipedia:

Ancient Kildwick Parish was unusually large for it included the townships of Kildwick, Bradley Both, Cononley, Cowling, Holden, Eastburn, Farnhill, Glusburn, Ikornshaw, Silsden, Steeton, Sutton and Stirton and Thorlby.

Here is a map, though it is quite busy:

Genuki further supplies this information:

In 1822, the following places were in
the Parish of Kildwick:

“BRUNTHWAITE, in the township of Silsden, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 5 miles N. of Keighley, 8 from Skipton.”

“CARR HEAD, (the seat of Richard Bradley Wainman, Esq.) in the township of Cowling, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 5 miles from Colne, (Lanc.) 6 from Skipton.”

“CONONLEY, in the township of Farnhill with Cononley, and parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; (Cononley Hall, the seat of John Swires, Esq.) 3 miles S. of Skipton, 6½ from Keighley, 10 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. included in Farnhill.”

“COWLING, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; 5 miles NE. of Colne, (Lancs.) 6 from Skipton, 8 from Keighley. Pop. 1,870.”

“CRINGLES, a hamlet in the township of Silsden, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 5 miles from Skipton and Keighley.”

“CROSSHILLS, in the township of Glusburn, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 5 miles from Keighley and Skipton, 8 from Colne, (Lanc.)”

“EASTBURN, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s Fee; 4 miles NW. of Keighley, 5¾ from Skipton, 10 from Colne. Pop. included in Steeton.”

“EDEN, a hamlet in the township of Sutton in Craven, and parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe; 4 miles from Keighley.”

“FARNHILL, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; 4 miles S. of Skipton, 5½ from Keighley. Pop. including Cononley, 1,350, which being united, form a township.”

“GLUSBURN, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; 5 miles S. of Skipton, 5½ from Keighley, 8 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. 787.”

“HIGH BRADLEY, a hamlet in the townships of Bradleys both, and parish of Kildwick, and liberty of Cliffords-Fee; 3 miles from Skipton. Pop. included in lower Bradley.”

“ICKORNSHAW, (or Cornshaw) in the township of Cowling, and parish of Kildwick, east-division and liberty of Staincliffe; 4 miles from Colne, (Lanc.) 7 from Skipton, 5 from Keighley.”

“KILDWICK GRANGE, a hamlet in the township and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe, 5 miles from Keighley.”

“LOW BRADLEY, in the township of Upper and Lower Bradley, and parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; 3½ miles from Skipton, 6½ from Keighley, 12 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. including Upper Bradley, 506, which being united, form the township usually denominated Bradleys both.”

“MALSIS HALL, a single house in the township of Glusburn, and parish of Kildwick, 5½ miles S. of Skipton and 5 from Keighley.

This was formerly the seat of a family of the name of Copley, and according to Whitaker’s Craven, was considered as the Manor house of Sutton, “for, by inquisition taken 34 Henry VIII. it was found that Alvary Copley was seized of the Manor of Sutton, or Malseyes, held of William Vavasour, Esq. as of his Manor of Addingham.” It is now the residence of Mr. William Spencer.”

“SILSDEN, (and Silsden Moor) in the parish of Kildwick, east-division and liberty of Staincliffe; 4 miles from Keighley, 7 from Skipton, 12 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. 1,904. The Church is a perpetual curacy, dedicated to St. James, in the deanry of Craven, value, p.r. !£86. Patron, the Earl of Thanet.”

“SILSDEN MOOR, a hamlet in the township of Silsden, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 4 miles from Skipton.”

“STEETON, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division and liberty of Staincliffe; (Steeton Hall, the seat of William Sugden, Esq.) 2 miles NW. of Keighley, 7 from Skipton, 11 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. including Eastburn, 753 which being united, form a township.”

“STONE GAPPE, a single house in the township of Glusburn, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 4½ miles S. of Skipton.”

“STOTT HILL, a hamlet in the township of Cowling, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 5 miles from Colne, (Lanc.)”

“SUTTON IN CRAVEN, in the parish of Kildwick, east-division of Staincliffe, liberty of Clifford’s-Fee; 5 miles NW. of Keighley and Skipton, 9 from Colne, (Lanc.) Pop. 1,092.”

“SWARTHA, (or Swarthey) a hamlet in the township of Silsden, and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 4½ miles N. of Keighley.”

“TOM’S CROSS, in the parish of Kildwick, and wapentake and liberty of Staincliffe; 4 miles NE. of Colne.”

“WOODSIDE, scattered houses in the township and parish of Kildwick, liberty of Staincliffe; 4½ miles from Keighley, 4 miles S. of Skipton.”

I copy this information as it gives the distance from Colne for some of these places.

Here are the top five matches:

Jennifer and R.M. must be related as their trees are the same length. When I check shared matches, R.M. is Jennifer’s daughter. Here is Jennifer’s tree:

Jennifer shows as a second cousin to Jenny in shared matches. Here is Jenny’s tree:

This should narrow down where to look. Further, I See from Jennifer’s tree taht CHarles Bell and Sarah Jones are from Yorkshire. Here are more names along that line from Jennifer’s tree:

Further, the Bell and Caygill lines are the ones in Yorkshire.

Goodby Mary Heap; Hello Mary Berry

I will replace Mary Heap with Mary Berry in my Ancestry Tree, to see if anything shows up on DNA matches:

I gave her a birth date of 1775. That would put her at about 26 when she married James Hartley, widower. There was a Mary Berry born in Colne and baptized in March that year:

This appears to be the best gues for Mary’s birth.

Summary and Conclusions

  • When you don’t know who your ancestors are, you have to make many guesses to see which guesses are most likely
  • I assumed that the parents of my ancestor Robert Hartley were James and Mary of Bough Gap, Colne Parish Lancashire
  • I further assumed that the Mary who married James Hartley was a Mary Berry from Kildwick Parish, Yorkshire, not far from Colne
  • A check of my father’s cousin Joyce’s matches revealsed that many of them had ancestry from Kildwick.
  • The closest match had a very large tree but no Berry names from that area in her ancestry.
  • I have put Mary Berry into my tree, to see if there are many or any DNA matches that show up.
  • Although I am skeptical that Mary Berry is the right ancestor, I think I have a fairly good procedure to check on potential ancestors. That is, whether there are many DNA matches on the ThruLines.

 

 

 

 

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More Hartley ThruLines

I need to modify my Hartley genealogical tree. My earliest verified ancestor was the widower Robert Hartley who married Mary Pilling, a single mother:

 

This marriage was in 1830. However, finding the father of Robert Hartley has proved to be difficult.

ThruLines Gone Wrong

When I took out my best guess for Robert Hartley’s father, ThruLines or Ancestry added in Moses Wilkinson as the father:

I am quite sure that this does not make sense as Mary Pilling married a Robert Wilkinson after Robert Hartley died. I have that Mary’s second husband Robert Wilkinson had Moses Wilinson and Jane Shaw as his parents.

Adding Robert’s Father Back In

My idea is to add just a father in at this point. Here is Robert Hartley’s burial record:

The best information I have is that Robert was 31 years old when he died in 1835. That means that he could have been born in 1804 or 1803 after August 6th. There were four Robert Hartleys born in Colne Parish in 1803-1804:

All fathers of these Roberts were named James Hartley. That means that I can a great degree of confidence say that Robert’s father was James Hartley. In addition, all these James Hartleys were weavers. I’ll just add in James Hartley as a father to Robert and see what sorts out with the ThruLines.

It may take a while for the ThruLines to recalculate. This is what it looks like now:

Robert Wilkinson was taken out, James Hartley has not been put back in. But because I did not pick a spouse for James Hartley, Jane Shaw is still showing up. I suppose that it would make sense that the Wilkinson family would show up, because I am related to the Wilkinson family – but only because Robert Wilkinson married my ancestor Mary Pilling.

It has now been a few days since I added in James Hartley and now have this:

James has been added but no descendants are connected. Also, ThruLines seems to preferentially chosen Jane Shaw as a potential ancestor.

My Father’s Cousin’s ThruLines

My second cousin has tested her father who is my father’s first cousin. She has a different tree than I have and has these ThruLines:

She has chosen James Hartley and Betty Baldwin as parents of Robert Hartley. It is possible that James and Mary of Bough Gap may be a better choice. Here is a map of Bough Gap and Bough Gap Mill from about 1844:

Also, from a previous Blog, I believe that Robert Hartley’s first wife was Barbara or Barbary Heaton who died in Well Head. I believe that Well Head was in Winewall.

Robert Hartley and Mary

This next step is to find a Robert Hartley who married a Mary:

Here, I have another 4 choices. Unfortunately, a location is not given for these couples other than the Chapelry of Colne. Assuming the couple married in Colne, Mary would have been 24, 30, 32 or 44 when giving birth to Robert.

Here are some children born to James and Mary Hartley:

More were born in Gilbert Clough, but I do not know where this is.

Gilford/Gilbert/Guildford Clough

There appears to be a great amount of confusion as to the spelling of this place. Here is part of a helpful detailed walking tour description from Wycoller to Trawden:

After taking in my fill of comprehensive views from Lad Law I began my descent by following a good path on Bedding Hill Moor towards the Trawden Valley. I was drawn to look at Upper Coldwell Reservoir and Lower Coldwell Reservoir below to my left. Further west I could see the east of Burnley but these views disappeared as I descended further off the moor and were gone completely by the time I reached the first discoveries of Trawden Brook at Gilford Clough. The moor was now behind me as I followed upland pasture in the direction of Hollin Hall and the village of Trawden. Near Alder Hurst End the field path ended and I followed a lane past some lovely rows of cottages to the village.

Here is a map I found that appears to match that description:

This location looks promising. The question is, did James and Mary live in Bough Gap, have Robert and then move to Guildford Clough and have more children? Also notice the mention of Alder Hurst in the walking narrative. I believe that the Pilling family lived there.

1841 Census

There are a James and Mary in the 1841 Census in Winewall:

It is not clear if this is the same James that gave birth to Robert. It is definitely not the same Mary as she is born about 1801. She is possibly a second wife.

The oldest resident of Alderhirstend was John Hartley:

Bough Gap has many Hartleys:

Henry Hartley, 45, may have been a relative of Robert Hartley from Bough Gap? His parents appear to be William and Margaret Hartley.

Adding a Mother for Robert Hartley

I added back James Hartley for Robert’s father. Now I will add in Mary Heap. She is a logical choice, and my cousin already have Betty Baldwin (perhaps from my Hartley Web Page). Having two different mothers may be helpful to compare. Another interesting connection is tha there is a Heap living at Alderhist Head:

Adding Mary Heap will be better than having a Wilkinson wife in my ancestry.

Here is what my ThruLines now show:

However, there are no matches for either person. This could be because I have no birth date for either or because they are the wrong ancestors?

My Cousin’s ThruLines

I mentioned above that my second cousin posted her father’s results at Ancestry. But she used James Hartley and Betty Baldwin as Robert Hartley’s parents.

These ThruLines have 35 matches. Robert Hartley is listed twice, but it sort of makes sense as the second Robert Hartley was not the father of John Pilling Mary Pilling had a child before she married Robert Hartley. The ThruLines get more interesting with what my cousin has for James Hartley’s parents:

Even more matches appear on the Bracewell side:

Going back a generation, there are even more matches:

This seems to indicate that this tree is on the right track – either right or close enough to right that there are a lot of DNA matches.

Give Heap a Chance

Before I add birth dates to James Hartley and Mary Heap, I’ll try something else. I took DNA from another of my father’s cousins named Joyce. I’ll look at her Hartley side and then search for DNA matches with Heap in the ancestry. First I filter on Joyce’s maternal side which is her Hartley side. Then I search for:

The top match is Brian, but his Heap connection is too far back and in the wrong part of England:

He also has Shackleton ancestors, so that may be a more likely connection.

The next match is Andrew:

Accrington seems to be about the same distance as my Hartley ancestors from Colne and my Emmet ancestors from Bacup.

The next Brian has a shared match with a potential  Emmet side common ancestor.

Steve’s Heap ancestor was from Chesire, but he also has Shackleton, Hartley adn Howorth in the mix. I am not seeing a lot of good results for Heap so far.

Maria’s 13 cM match Heap is from Burnley. I do notice the Pollard name showing up in some of these trees.

Abigail’s Heap is from Haslingden.

A Baldwin Experiment

What if I try the same experiment with Baldwin? I proposed Betty Baldwin as an ancestor many years ago:

Again, using Joyce’s maternal matches.

Kristen

Kristen is a known match. She has built a different Hartley tree far out:

Kristen has James Hartley and Elizabeth Taylor as the parents of Robert Hartley. Elizabeth would have been about 39 when giving birth to Robert under this scenario. Kristen’s Baldwin is from the 1600’s.

Cathy

Cathy has a Baldwin from New Jersey in the 1700’s. Shared matches show common ancestors on my Snell side with Massachusetts colonial ancestors.

Dennis

Dennis has a Baldwin ancestor from Connecticut in the 1600’s.

Lee

Lee has been on my radar for a while. He has Baldwin ancestors, Hartley ancestors and ancestors from Trawden.

So this experiment was perhaps more hopeful, but not the best either. Perhaps the most interesting aspect was Kristen’s proposed ancestry tree for Hartley.

The Taylor Tree Scenario

If I were to look for Joyce’s maternal matches with Taylor in the ancestral tree, I fear I would get too many matches. Kristen has this for James Hartley:

This is interesting as I had Betty Baldwin and Kristen has Betty Taylor as Robert’s mother.

Kristen does not provide a marriage date for James and Betty Taylor.

This does not appear to work out well as Betty would have been 59 when she gave birth to Robert. By Kristen’s timeline, she would actually have been 58 when Robert was born:

I would rule out Betty Taylor based on her age. It is interesting, however, that Kristen chose a Betty as the wife of James Hartley. Now that I think of it, Mary Heap would have been quite old had she been the mother of Robert Hartley

Better Choices for Mary

  1. Mary Holmes – perhaps in her mid 40’s giving birth to Robert
  2. Mary Stansfield – this James was a weaver which is probably a plus
  3. Mary Berry – from Kildwick
  4. Mary Robinson – this James is also a weaver. A witness of John Shackleton is interesting.

Here is Kildwick:

At this point, I would like to end the Blog and pick it up in a subsequent Blog. An initial look at my father’s cousin Joyce’s Kilwick matches shows that there are quite a few matches from this area.

Summary and Conclusions

  • When I took away my best guess for Robert Hartley’s parents, ThruLines gave me parents that I knew were wrong.
  • I made a guess that Robert’s parents could have been James and Mary
  • Unfortunately, the Mary I chose was married too early, so I ruled out Mary Heap
  • I then started to look at other Marys that married James Hartley in the right time period to have a Robert Hartley born 1803-1804.
  • As this could take a while, I will start a new Blog.