Category: Frazer

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Richard and a Frazer DNA Breakthrough: Part One

Richard contacted me recently as he had seen my web page on my Frazer ancestors. He had seen some similarities between my Frazers and the names and places of Ontario Frazer ancestors he was researching and wondered if his Frazer ancestors matched with mine.

Here are some of the people that Richard has been researching. I have quoted Richard below in part:

Eliza Frazer, b. in Ireland on December 11, 1827 per 1901 Canada Census, having immigrated to Canada in 1842.

Ann Frazer, b. in Ireland about October 1832.  No record to date of Ann’s birthplace or parents.  She married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland) in 1853, probably in Brant or Oxford counties, Ontario.

Rebecca Frazer, b. 1837 in Ireland, d. 1877 in Huron County Ontario.  Rebecca lived with Ann Frazer Johnston and Robert Johnston in 1861, as did Robert’s employee William Geddes.   Rebecca married William Geddes in 1865.  Their marriage record lists Rebecca’s parents as Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor.

George James Frazer/Fraser, b. July 6 1841 in County Sligo, Ireland.  No record yet of date of immigration.  George is listed in the 1861 Canada Census in Woodstock, Oxford County, Ontario, occupation school teacher.  George married Jane Burgess (daughter of William Burgess and Elizabeth Ann Watt) of Woodstock in 1863 in Paris, Brant County, Ontario.  The marriage record lists George’s parents as Philip Fraser and Mary Gray.

One interesting thing is that all these Frazers had children except Rebecca. Eliza, Ann and George all named their first child Philip. Richard guessed that Eliza was the one I had on my Frazer Web Page and that Ann and Rebecca were sisters. Richard descends from Ann who “…married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland)…”

My initial guess was that all these four were siblings.

A Reassessment of the Philip Frazer Line

The earliest research on the Frazer line that we know of was done in the 1950’s:

This research shows Philip Frazer born 1758 with sons Philip and George. Subsequent research by Frazer descendents have moved these brothers’ birth dates up to the 1770’s. I reasoned that the James Frazer that married Violet Frazer above was actually another son of Philip above. This was based mostly on the James’ naming of his first son Philip and where these families lived in proximity to each other.

Here is my web page version:

 

Note that I have that the younger Philip married a Jane Johnston in 1818. However, it could be that the father Philip married this Jane as a second wife. Philip would have been about 42 in 1818.

Further, this George is of interest. My 2nd great grandfather was George Frazer born around 1836. He could have been named after the late George born say around 1800. Looking above, the George that the Richard of this Blog has could also have been named for the same George. This gives circumstantial evidence that he could also have been of this same Philip Line.

Finally, note the tithe applotment. My assumption is that George, Philip and James were three brothers. My second assumption is that they are listed in order of age. That would make George the eldest and James the youngest. I have James born around 1804 based on his age at death. That would put the two brothers as born sometimes before then – Perhaps 1800 and 1802.

More Thoughts on the Philip Frazer, Jr. Line

Here is my web page which is in need of revising:

First, I am leaning toward putting Jane Johnston with the elder Philip. Second, I now have a wife for the junior Philip from Michael’s compilation of Frazer records:

MLB                 Marriage Licence Bonds (Diocese of Elphin 1709-1845)

This information is interesting in light of Richard’s research showing that Rebecca’s parents were Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor. Richard’s Rebecca was born later than the one I have on my web page above. This could mean one of two things:

  • The first Rebecca died and the family had a later Rebecca
  • Rebecca wanted to be younger than she really was

This brings up the subject of the Maxwell Discontinuity.

The Maxwell Discontinuity.

I had told Richard that this was the Minion discontinuity, but apparently I was wrong. These are Minions:

Maxwell was the Parish Priest in Klmactranny. He was supposed to be taking down records but didn’t between sometime in 1830 and sometime before early 1842. For this reason, a lot of important records are missing. My 2nd great grandfather was born about 1836. So that could explain his missing birth record. Apparently the birth of Richard’s George James Frazer is missing due to the Maxwell discontinuity. Hmm… perhaps George James Frazer was named for the deceased George mentioned above and also for my ancestor James born about 1804. Well, James is a common name. Another issue for Richard’s George James Frazer is that his mother is listed as Mary Gray rather than Mary Taylor. There could be at least two reasons for that:

  • The wrong name could have been written down for George’s mother on his marriage record
  • George’s father could have remarried a Mary Gray. I suppose if this was the case, then DNA testing of descendants would show the difference. For example, matches between Richard and George’s descendants would be half cousins, so the DNA matches would be half as much as they would be with the full cousins.

What About Ann Frazer born 1832

If Ann Frazer was a sibling of Philip, Eliza, Rebecca and George she would have been born during the Maxwell Discontinuity. It would have been likely that she would have been baptized at the same Church as her siblings.

That sums up some of the genealogical connections between the families.

Next, on to the DNA

Richard’s Ancestry DNA Matches

Richard gave me access to his DNA results. I typed in Frazer on Richard’s match list and came up with these results:

 

These were just the projected 4th cousin by DNA matches. The first match was with Michael who compiled the Frazer records I mentioned above. The second match was with Gladys who I have as descending from Philip Frazer. Both of these people are the Frazer DNA project that I run. I don’t know who Debbie is.

Under more distant cousins, my sister Lori and I are listed. Then there is Moira who I don’t know. Finally there is someone who wished to remain anonymous, but is clearly related on what I have as the Philip Frazer (Sr.) Line. Once I saw the Ancestry results, I was quite sure that Richard was on the right track and was related by DNA and genealogy to the rest of the Frazers in the Frazer DNA Group.

But Wait, There’s More: Shared Matches

AncestryDNA doesn’t have a chromosome browser, but they do have a useful utility called Shared Matches. When I check the Shared Matches between myself and Richard, I come up with Gary. Here is Gary’s paternal tree from Ancestry:

Gary has his great grandfather William Acheson as being from Rockview, Lough Arrow, County Sligo. My Frazer ancestors lived on Lough Arrow and some of my relatives are still there. The ones I have been most in touch with live on the NE shore of Lough Arrow Here is a map of the Rock View Hotel, which I assume could be the same place:

Another tie-in is that Arthur, someone that helped with my genealogy years ago, was researching Achesons. Arthur was the one that coined the phrase Maxwell Discontinuity and discovered the gap of missing records.

It turns out that Gary’s father’s best man at his wedding was one of my Frazer relatives from near Lough Arrow. I had asked Gary to upload his results to Gedmatch. I didn’t see his message that he did that until I looked again at his results at AncestryDNA just recently. Right now Gary’s results don’t give me any easy answers, but there seem to be some interesting connections there – somewhere that we haven’t figured out yet. Ah, the mystery of genetic genealogy.

By the way, a Shared Match means just that. It means I match Richard by DNA. Richard matches Gary and I match both of them. It is not the same as triangulation by DNA but it could be the same. In a way it means, where there is smoke, there may be fire.

A Summary of Part One

  • Some Ontario Frazers that Richard has been researching (including his own ancestor Ann Frazer) appear to be siblings. They also all descend from Philip Frazer. This appears to be the same Philip who I have as the son of another Philip from North Roscommon, Ireland and the brother of my ancestor James Frazer. I have not proven that my ancestor James is the brother of Philip, but the research from Richard adds circumstantial evidence to the work that I have done.
  • In addition to matching by genealogy to my Frazer relatives, Richard matches me, my sister and two other Frazers in the Frazer DNA Project: Gladys and Michael. The match to Gladys can be explained if we are all descended from Philip Frazer born around 1776.
  • Richard also matches Michael at AncestryDNA. I have that Michael does not descend from Philip born around 1776, but from two of his brothers: Richard and Archibald. That means that the common ancestor between Michael, myself, Gladys and Richard could be the father of Philip or another collateral line. Actually Gladys does match Michael on another Frazer Line. Both Gladys and Michael descend from Archibald Frazer born about 1778 who is a brother of the Philip born about 1776.
  • Richard and I have another shared match Gary. The connection between this Gary, Richard and me may be even more difficult to figure out than the one between Michael, Richard and myself. This is because Gary is not aware of any Frazers in his ancestry.
  • So far, my research on the Frazer family has been a great collaboration with other Frazer researchers around the world. I am glad to have Richard contributing his research to the work that others have done.

Next Blog

In the next Blog, I’ll take a look at Richard’s results at Gedmatch. AncestryDNA gives some general matching information, but does not give specific matches. With specific matches, on specific parts of specific chromosomes, it is possible to infer or give pretty good indication of common ancestors. This DNA may give further evidence for or against having my James Frazer in the Philip Line.

Also, I know how I am related to Michael. My ancestor Violet Frazer was the daughter of Richard Frazer born about 1777. Violet was the sister of Isabella Frazer who was the ancestor of Michael. However, I am not sure how Richard matches Michael. He would have a common ancestor in the father of Philip Sr who was Archicbald Frazer born about 1743, but that is going quite a way back.

 

 

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Frazer-Johnston DNA and Genealogy

I recently had some good news. John contacted me. He has Johnston and Frazer ancestry and wants to know if I could look at his DNA. I like it when I am not chasing down people and someone gets in touch with me without me first asking them. In his initial contact with me, John brought a smile to my face when he noted that I was “working the DNA hard”. This brought to my mind the comedy mocumentary “Walk Hard”.

Frazer-Johnston Genealogy

I have had an interest in the Johnstons for some time. I noticed that they were living in vicinity of Frazers  in North Roscommon and had married into the family – though not into my specific line as far as I know.

Here is the important Frazer-Stinson marriage.

This was compiled by Michael of our Frazer DNA group and researched by Ros of our group. Good team effort.

I also find this entry interesting:

My research leads me to believe that I am descended from the elder Philip [Frazer] mentioned above. That theory could be supported if I were to find a descendant from this line to test their DNA.

That brings up a point. It is an excellent genealogical method to research collateral lines when researching your own line. Johnston would be considered a collateral line for me and for those in the Frazer DNA Project. Research in these lines can shed light on your own line.

A Bloated Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line

This line is bloated but in a good way.

I added John on the left as he descends from Mary Frazer. Mary appears to be an elder daughter of the Frazer/Stinson union. By this chart, John is 4th cousin to those in his generation from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. John is 4th cousin once removed to those that one generation down from him (bottom row).

I should note that there are two types of DNA testers in the tree above. The first group from the viewpoint of the Frazers are only in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line and no other Frazer Line. The second group are in more than one Frazer Line. Those that are in more than one line are:

  • Jane
  • Michael
  • Those in the yellow group to the right

I put a red box around the lines that descend from more than one Frazer from the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Tree. This is important when trying to separate out the DNA.

Derrycastle During the Tithe Applotment (1834)

The Tithe Applotment was an assessment to support the Church of Ireland from what I understand. Here is a list of the families in Derrycastle in 1834:

Here is the original handwritten list:

My sense is that the most important person was listed first in these assessments. Now I get to quote myself as a self-appointed leading authority on Derrycastle. From my Frazer webpage:

The Tithe Applotment is considered to be a census substitute. We may tell where many of the heads of households lived at this time. There were 19 Frazers listed in this ‘census’ in Roscommon. That is more than any other Republic of Ireland County at the time. John is difficult to determine due to the number of Johns in the area. My guess is that he is the John b. c. 1805 who married Isabella. Archy may be John’s brother. William may be yet another brother. I don’t know who Ann is – perhaps his mother Ann Stinson Frazer(?) Philip and James are likely the sons of Philip. Archy of Shanvoley apparently was from or lived in Shanvoley. I don’t know if people were listed more than once in the Tithe Applotment. There is also an Archy and Alexander listed in Shanvoley in 1834. Actually they are listed as being in Bothoriagh Shanvallew Derrynamontrue. I don’t know who the widow McGrath was. Lastly John Johnston was probably Jane Frazer’s husband below.

To answer my question above, I believe that people were listed more than once in these Applotments. For example Alexander of Shanvoley lived in Shanvoley, but had some land in Derrycastle. This would be quite common as these Townlands were quite small.

Another question is: who was George Frazer? I didn’t address that above. However, Michael’s compilation of records has:

So if my theory is right, then my ancestor James Frazer was the son of Philip and the brother of George. That would explain where my 2nd great grandfather George Frazer (son of James) got his name:

My great great grandfather (seated to the right in the photo above) was born about 1838 and was apparently named after his Uncle George who died late in 1831 – probably in his memory. I was recently wondering where George got his name. This would be a good explanation. While I’m off the subject, I’ve slept in the house pictured above which I think is pretty cool. The house is still in the family. My great grandfather who was the eldest child had already left for Boston, Massachusetts by the time this photo was taken. He was seeking his fortune in the new world.

Getting back on subject, I find it interesting that Ann Stinson Frazer is probably the Ann Frazer listed in the 1834 Tithe Applotment above. Information supplied to me by the John of this Blog indicates that Ann Stinson died in 1840 – 6 years after the taking of the Tithe Applotment.

John’s Frazer DNA

I don’t know much about Johnston DNA, so I will be looking at John’s Frazer DNA. By the way, what is the question we are trying to answer with John’s DNA? One is, does the genealogy look right? Does John belong in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line? According to this table, John should have a better than even chance of matching a 4th cousin:

However, for 4th cousin, once removed, it looks like he has less than an even chance of matching by DNA.

The Archibald Line Matrix

The matrix is getting too big for the whole Frazer DNA project, so I will just show it for the Archibald Line:

I am at the top left. I don’t descend from Archy and Ann. David is someone who is unsure of his relationship to our group but does match by DNA. I suspect he descends from Richard Frazer born in the 1770’s. John is below David in the first column. Notice that John doesn’t match anyone in my family – the family that does not descend from Archy and Ann Stinson. So that would make sense. David should also be in the ‘not descending from Stinson’ category. John has nine matches with 15 Frazer/Stinson descendants. That sounds like more than half. Albeit, two of those matches are below 7 cM.

John had asked me about his lack of match with Michael at AncestryDNA. At Gedmatch, John clearly matches Michael. My guess is that Ancestry uses a method to filter out some of the matches that it thinks might not be real or accurate. It is that method that likely filtered out this match between John and Michael. Some people don’t like Ancestry’s filtering. To me, the match between John and Michael looks good.

More DNA Details and Triangulation

John had a question to me about AncestryDNA circles. I told him that they are OK, but that triangulation is much more precise. To find Triangulation Groups (TGs), I use the Multi Kit Analysis utility at Gedmatch. If three not very closely people match each other on the same segment of DNA, then that is considered a TG. It means that those three share a common ancestor. In this study, we are looking for common Frazer ancestors.

Based on the Multi Kit Analysis, John matches 7 people on the Archibald Frazer Line:

That makes sense as I mentioned that two matches were under the 7 cM threshold. Here John matches brother and sister Susan and Ken as well as their 1st cousin Patricia. That would be John’s TG. Then he matches Gladys, Michael, Doug and Vivien of the Frazer/Stinson Line.

This shows that John matches Frazer/Stinson descendants on four different lines. That is quite convincing. These international matches represent Australia, two DNA testers from England and Canadian relatives.

The triangulation is with the yellow line of Frazer descendants on the right. This is likely because they have more people tested to triangulate with. John mentioned a common area that his family lived in with the yellow line. That was Martinsburg, NY. So John should also check that there was no common ancestor from that connection. My guess is that the small DNA match they have represents Frazer as a New York connection would likely represent a larger DNA match.

Actually, my next project is to determine what parts of DNA Doreen, Ken and Susan got from their grandparents – especially their Frazer grandfather. I’ll be using a procedure called Visual Phasing. So this Chromosome 3 match they have with John would very likely be from their Frazer grandfather.

For fun, I checked to see if John matched anyone in the James Line of Frazers. He matched Charlotte from that Line, but only at 6.0 cM.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Going over John’s Frazer-Johnston background was interesting and it shed some new possibilities for my own genealogy.
  • Like Michael, John represents for now, a single line branch coming down from a child of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.
  • Unlike Michael, John only descends from one Frazer Line.
  • Although technically, the DNA could indicate that John descends only from Archibald Frazer or Ann Stinson, there is no reason to believe that John does not descend from both.
  • It can be comforting to know that your genealogical research is backed up by DNA evidence.
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Ken’s Frazer Autosomal DNA

Ken’s DNA test came in recently to Family Tree DNA. Then it was uploaded to Gedmatch. One important thing about Ken’s test results is that he is the third of three siblings to have taken the DNA test. That means that it is possible for Ken and his two sisters to figure out what DNA they got from their four grandparents. This is important in figuring out how you match other people by DNA.

Ken’s Genealogy

Ken descends from three different Frazer Lines. I am in this line.

Notice that James Frazer married a Violet Frazer. Yes, they were cousins. It seems weird today, but this apparently was not as weird in the early 1800’s. I am not completely sure of this line. I know that Violet married James, but I am not completely sure that James was the son of Philip. It would make sense as James first son was named Philip which may have been in honor of James’ father. This would have been a common naming practice but not a hard and fast rule.

Here is another line I’m in:

This line descends from Richard who was Philip’s brother. Here Violet’s father at least is quite certain. I don’t know who Richard’s wife was. This is a bigger branch of the family. These branches shown are only those that have taken the DNA test. David on the left matches, but he hasn’t been connected for certain by genealogy. Jane was added to line by DNA also (in conjunction with some probably genealogy) but she was already in another Frazer Line.

Here is the third line Ken is in.

One good thing about this line is that we have a wife for Archibald at the top. Archibald is another brother of Philip and Richard. Archibald’s wife was Ann Stinson, so I think of this as the Stinson Line. Another thing about this Frazer line is that some of the people that are in it are only in the Stinson Line. That is, except for the yellow line, Michael, and Jane.

Ken’s DNA Compared to Other Frazer DNA

Here is how Ken compares to other Frazers descending from North Roscommon County, Ireland.

I put all the matches in a matrix:

I put the matches into categories. David is in the wrong area. He should be with the Richard Frazer descendants – at least this was our guess. I lumped all the James Frazer Line together as the Archibald line does not, in general have large matches with them. They are in the bottom right of the matrix.

Ken is my 4th cousin. He matches my brother Jonathan at 18.5 cM and my sister Lori at 74.2 cM. Ken is a 3rd cousin once removed to Paul and matches him even less at 11.7 cM. This just shows the randomness of DNA inheritance. Ken’s DNA match with Lori is above average and his match with Paul is below average. However, they are both within range for either 3rd cousin once removed or fourth cousin.

Ken’s Frazer DNA More Specifically

The above chart shows where Ken, highlighted in blue, matches other Frazers. To get where he matches them on each specific chromosome, I go to Gedmatch’s ‘Multi Kit Analysis’. I choose all the DNA testers in the Frazer project. Then I download the individual matches. This gives me over 3200 matches. I also change the names of the people to make them more private. I usually take out the last name. Unfortunately, I didn’t distinguish between my brother Jonathan and the Jonathan on the James Line. Hopefully, I’ll be able to figure that out.

Here is a summary of Ken’s matches that are at the level of James and Violet Frazer or above. I took out his closer matches as the closer you get to a relative, the more lines you may match on.

  • Vivien and Cathy are from the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line
  • Lori, Jonathan, Joel, Heidi and Sharon represent the James/Violet Frazer Line
  • Prudence is from the far-away James Line
  • Jane may match Ken in either the Richard Frazer or Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line
  • David is not certain by genealogy, but I have placed him for the time being in the Richard Frazer Line

Ken and Triangulation

What I am looking for are Triangulation Groups or TGs. These are threesomes of matches all on the same part of the chromosome. These matches indicate a common ancestor. This could be important to figure out whether a specific DNA match with Ken is the in the Richard group, the Archibald group or perhaps the Philip group.

Ken and Lori – Chromosome 3

Ken matches my sister Lori on Chromosome 3.

I have added some of the other matches for comparison. Madeline, Mary, Gary and Judith are on the James Line, so they can be ignored for this Archibald Line match.

Here we have a new Triangulation Group (TG). Lori matches Ken and Patricia and Ken and Patricia match each other.

This shows that the Chromosome 3 TG represents DNA from James Frazer or Violet Frazer. Lori was the 5th and my most recent sibling DNA tester. She is the only one of my siblings that matched Pat and Ken. This is why:

The top part is a map of the DNA for me and my sisters Heidi and Sharon. This was done by Martin Macneill from our ‘raw’ DNA. The lighter red is Frazer DNA. Heidi got Frazer DNA up to about 26M. Sharon got Frazer DNA up to 27M. The match Ken has with Lori is at 60-74M. So Lori is my only sibling out of 5 that could match Ken.

This TG on Chromosome 3 gives strong evidence to support the Frazer tree up to James and Violet Frazer. We can’t tell from this TG whether the DNA represents James or Violet Frazer. It would have to be one or the other. We do know that it is Frazer DNA.

Here I have added Ken to the TG Matrix:

This is just the part of the Matrix that has people descending from James and Violet Frazer. The yellow boxes indicateTGs that probably represent James and Violet Frazer.

Chromosome 12 in the Age of Discovery

I feel like I’m in the Age of Discovery for DNA. Here are some Chromosome 12 discoveries. Actually, a TG12B above has already been discovered. However, there are a few interesting points about this TG.

First, there are quite a few people in this TG. There are eight people shown above in TG12B. Secondly, David, who I mentioned above, is in this TG. David is the ninth person in TG12B. Thirdly, Jane is in this TG. Jane does not descend from James and Violet, but she does descend from Violet’s father Richard. This TG is not likely an Archibald/Stinson TG as Heidi, Joel and Sharon do not descend from that Line. This seems to confirm that David should be in this Richard Line.

Here are David’s Chromosome 12 matches:

I had actually pointed out David’s TG in previous Blogs, so perhaps this is more like the age of re-discovery.

 

This tends to solidify the TG and relationship that David has to the Frazer DNA Project. If the tree I drew is correct, then David would be 4th cousin to Jan and Gladys and 4th cousin, once removed to Ken, Bill, Sharon, Heidi, Joel and Lori. In support of my theory for David, I note that his level of DNA matches with the group and Jane’s level of DNA matches are very consistent with each other. Here are Jane’s match levels for comparison:

Next Up

I would like to get started with the Visual Phasing for Ken, Susan and Doreen. This should at least separate out what DNA they got from their Frazer grandfather and what DNA they got from their Gray grandmother. If I find out more about their maternal side, I will be able to map to those two grandparents also – depending on how many known matches they know on that side.

Summary and Conclusions

  • At one point, I was tentative about joining the genealogies of my family with those of the Richard Patterson Frazer Branch. Now, with all the DNA matches, the relationship is very clear.
  • I am reminded of the connection between David and our Frazer branch. He has a Frazer ancestor that he has not linked to our Frazers by genealogy. However, David is certainly linked to our Frazer project by DNA. That link appears to be on a Frazer line. However, it is possible that the link may be on a collateral line.
  • I’m looking forward to starting the visual phasing of Ken and his two sisters

 

 

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Mapping James Frazer born 1804 and Violet Frazer born 1803

In my last Blog, I wrote about Doreen’s results. Doreen and I have the common ancestors of likely first cousins, James Frazer b. 1804 and Violet Frazer born 1803. For some reason, I don’t believe that I have ever mapped this couple out using Kitty Munson’s Chromosome Mapper.

Descendants of James and Violet Frazer

The people in bold have all taken autosomal DNA tests. That is, except for Rick who took the YDNA test. If I compare myself to Susan, Doreen, Pat, Gladys and Bill, the DNA that we share would represent either James or Violet Frazer.

Kitty Munson’s Utility requires the information be put into a CSV File like this:

I share the first and last segments with Doreen. The second I share with Pat. I share rows 3, 5, and 9 with Susan. I share rows 4 and 8 with Gladys. I share rows 6 and 7 with Bill. However, they are the same segment. One is as reported at FTDNA and one is as reported at Gedmatch.

Here is my map of just these two ancestors:

This is just my map. The map for each of my siblings and my cousin Paul would look different. Also The map for each of the people in the yellow part of the James/Violet Tree would also look different.

Here is the blue James/Violet segments  (now showing as navy blue or black) with other segments I have identified:

Next, I would like to put the ancestors in a better order. They appear randomly, but I am guessing that the first chromosome gets the first color, etc. as I have my table sorted by chromosome. My four grandparents are Hartley, Frazer, Rathfelder and Lentz. So I would like to sort them by these four grandparents. Then I would like the older ancestors in each line first. That is, except for Annie Snell. I have her listed separately as I must have figured out some of my DNA was from her. However, her dark green is overshadowed by the blue Hartley/Snell segments.

My new order will be:

Hartley:

  • Esther Howorth
  • Otis Snell
  • Annie Louisa Snell
  • Hartley/SNell

Frazer:

  • Richard Frazer
  • James/Violet Frazer
  • George Frazer/Margaret McMaster

Rathfelder

  • Hans Jerg Rathfelder/Juliane Bietenbinder
  • Rathfelder/Gangnus
  • Rathfelder/Lentz

Lentz

  • Nicholson/Stanisforth
  • Nicholson/Ellis
  • Lentz/Nicholson

That configuration gives me this:

I like the colors better. However, Annie at the first part of Chromosome 16 is still subsumed in Hartley/Snell in dark green. Also Otis Snell is a tiny segment at about 4cM. I think I’ll take out Otis and Annie:

I like this version the best. I have a lot of Hartley/Snell as this couple had 13 surviving children. As a result, I have a lot of 2nd cousins with matches. Hartley/Snell is now light blue. James/Violet Frazer is now dark green. My goal is to split up the light blue into Hartley and Snell.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I added some important James Frazer/Violet Frazer segments to my Chromosome Map
  • This couple was born in 1803/4.
  • Mapping points out where you have cousin matches and where those matches are missing
  • I hope I haven’t missed any other important ancestor segments on my map
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Doreen’s Frazer DNA

I was glad to hear from Doreen’s cousin Pat that Doreen’s DNA results were in. Doreen can now join her DNA results with many Frazers descending from North Roscommon County, Ireland.

Doreen’s Frazer Genealogy

It’s a bit complicated, but here is one section of Doreen’s Frazer Tree:

This is a section that I’m partial to as I’m in it. Notice at the top there are two Frazers. From what I can tell, these two were first cousins. Violet descended from Richard Frazer and as far as I can tell or guess, James came from his brother Phillip Frazer.

The Bigger Picture

Here’s a somewhat outdated tree of lines of Frazers that have had their DNA tested. I cut off the bottom two generations for privacy. James from Philip is in first blue line. However, Doreen with several others also descend from a third Frazer brother named Archibald who married Ann Stinson. That means that Doreen descends from her 5th great grandfather Archibald Frazer three different ways.

Doreen’s DNA

I would like to look at Doreen’s DNA and try to figure out if her DNA supports the trees we have or not. Doreen’s sister Susan has also had her DNA tested. Doreen’s brother Rick has had his YDNA tested. This is important as a direct male Frazer descedant is needed for that. Doreen has another brother and we are waiting for his results. That is because with the results of three siblings, it is possible to map out your the DNA you got from each grandparent. That makes it a lot easier to identify your matches.

Doreen and the Archichald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line

I’ll start with this Line as it is less complicated.

The only ones that complicate this tree are Jane and Michael. They both share the Richard Frazer Line with the yellow group. However, the good news is that the other lines are only in the Frazer/Stinson group. When I compare these people in a matrix, this is what I get:

I highlighted Jane and Michael as they have other Frazer ancestors. The close relationships between the poeple in the yellow George Frazer Line show up in green in the bottom right of the matrix.

Looking for James and Philip Frazer

When I did my genealogy, I knew that a James Frazer was married to a Violet Frazer. Violet was the son of Richard Frazer born about 1777. However, I have a lot less information on James Frazer.

According to the list of references compiled by Michael of this project:

This compilation of the records say that James was the son of Philip, but my guess is that the actual records don’t say that. They likely just say that James Frazer married Violet Frazer on 23 Jan 1828 and that James and Violet had a son Philip born not too long after on 28 May 1828. It was my assumption that James was the son of Philip as he named his first son after his father as per a common tradition of the day.

Here is some research that was done many years ago by one of Doug’s relatives:

This shows Violet married to James, but doesn’t show that James was the son of Philip. This appears to indicate that Richard also had a son named James.

How To Design a DNA Plan To Find James and Philip

First, it would be helpful to have other descendants of Philip, but I am not aware of any. Here are some ancestors of Richard that have had their DNA tested:

Of these people, I am the least sure about David on the bottom left. He has an ancestor James from Enniskillen that I added in because the dates mathced up and David matches by DNA. Jane was also added in but she has a lot of matches. Michael is quite sure his ancestry goes back to Richard.

Another Look at David

I haven’t looked at David for quite a while. He is in a Triangulation Group on Chromosome 12 with these people:

All these people descend from Richard Frazer b. 1777, so that adds some weight to where I put David in the tree above.

The Philip Frazer Line

The Philip Line should be very similar to the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line, but simpler:

So a DNA plan should try to determine:

  • Were James and Violet first cousins? This may be a little difficult to determine as they are four generations back from Gladys and Paul and 5 generations back from the other testers.
  • Is there a way to separate the DNA identified as being from Violet from that DNA from James Frazer b. 1804. This would seem to be even more difficult. Michael and Jane, inasmuch as they match my family or Paul would match at the Richard level for Violet. Matches through Phillip would be at one level higher at the level of Archibald Frazer b. about 1743 married to Mary Lilley. Again, the levels of DNA matches out that far are pretty variable, but I may be able to do something with all the testers we have.

The Effect On DNA Of First Cousins Marrying

This effect can be important for certain Frazer descendants. For example, Michael in the project also descends from two first cousin Frazers. I wrote a Blog in 2016 on Frazer Cousin Marriages here. Take the James Frazer/Violet Frazer marriage for example. You would think that The purple line and the yellow lines would have higher than normal matches with each other. However, those matches should be at the same level regardless of the fact that they are 1st cousins. The effect of the cousin marriage is not that great and takes place two generations prior to James and Violet. That means that the third cousin match between Gladys and Paul will overshadow any effect of an additional common ancestor at the 5th cousin level. Where the effect makes a difference is for others that only match on that common ancestor of Archibald Frazer b. 1743 (and his wife Mary Lilley).

James Frazer/Violet Frazer Matches

There are 11 people tested that descend from James Frazer and Violet Frazer b. 1803. Here is how they look in an autosomal matrix:

The people in the top left box all descend from George Frazer b. 1838. The people in the bottom right box descend from his brother Richard Patterson Frazer b. 1830. The matches in the bottom left and top right betwen the two Lines represent James Frazer and Violet Frazer. Gladys has the most matches in that category. About half of the DNA from these matches should be from James Frazer b. 1804 and half from his 1st cousin wife Violet Frazer b. 1803.

Detailed James/Violet DNA

Here is what I see on Chromosome 1:

I have the Richard Patterson Frazer Line in yellow above and the George Frazer Line in blue. It turns out that Chromosome 1 has a lot of matches for the Archibald Line of Frazers. From above, Gladys, Doreen and Jonathan (my brother) match from about 190M to 200M. To complete the Triangulation Group (TG), Gladys and Dorreen have to match each other. They do in that same area.

Here I have added in the new TG:

However, to do these TGs justice I will need to compare Doreen to everyone in the group. However, the way it looks now is that there is a TG in yellow for James and Violet Frazer. Then from 198 to 200M there is a TG representing the Archibald Frazer/Stinson Line.  At 203-241 there is a TG which appears to represent the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line. There is quite a bit going on.

On Chromosome 6 there is another apparent James/Violet TG:

Here is a quick update for Doreen on the TG Summary Sheet:

However, recall that I didn’t look into Michael or Jane’s results or any of the other Frazer DNA tested members.

Doreen’s DNA Compared To All DNA Tested Frazers in the Project

First I filtered out Doreen’s closer Richard Patterson Frazer Line matches to see which more distant relatives Doreen matched:

Doreen matches Janet from the James Line on Chromosome 14. Doreen also matches Vivien and Rita from the Archibald/Stinson Line. Michael and Jane could be from the Archibald or Richard Frazer Line. The Jonathan she matches is my brother, not Joanna and Janet’s brother. You can see some of the DNA inheritance patterns if you look at how Doreen matches my family. She matches me and my brother and sister Jonathan and Lori on Chromosome 6. She matches Jonathan and Sharon on Chromosome 9 and she matches me and my two sisters Heidi and Sharon on Chromosome 18. Doreen matches all of us on our paternal side. However, the DNA we got on our paternal side is switching from Hartley to Frazer and back again. It would be unusual for Doreen to match all five siblings on the Frazer side at a particular segment of a chromosome. Likewise, Doreen matches my family on her paternal side, but the DNA she got on paternal chromosomes are switching back and forth between her grandparents Frazer and Gray.

Back to Chromosome One – James and Violet Identified?

[This was a late-breaking edit I added after writing this Blog.]

I mentioned Chromosome One above. It appears that Doreen is in a new James/Violet TG there from 190M to 200M. However, right before that point, Doreen matches Michael from about 178-191M:

It is possible that Doreen has a crossover right around 190M. If this is right, then this could be the crossover passed down from her great grandfather George Frazer of his grandparents James and Violet Frazer. Here is my reasoning. The match Doreen has with Michael could represent their common ancestor of Richard Frazer b. about 1777. Richard had Violet and Isabella. Doreen descends from Violet and Michael descends from Isabella. This match between Doreen and Michael ended at about 190M. Starting at 190M, Doreen begins to match with Gladys and Jonathan. That was the TG that represents either James or Violet Frazer. As Doreen appears to have a change at this location, this could be the change or crossover from Violet Frazer to James Frazer in her ancestry. I don’t know if I have proven that these two segments represent Violet and James Frazer, but I think that I have made a good case. To me, this helps explain all the DNA matchingis going on in Chromosome 1 between the different Frazer Lines.

Doreen Shows an Ancient Crossover in Vivien?

Here is an interesting match in Chromosome 2:

Doreen matches Vivien from 75M to 81M. However, Vivien matches Jane right up to 75M then goes on to match Doreen. That looks like a crossover.

This could be the match between Vivien and Jane:

This could be the match between Vivien and Doreen:

My thought was that at 75M Vivien has a crossover. That means that Vivien’s DNA crossed over from Catherine Parker to her husband Archibald Parker at 75M. Doreen does not descend from this couple, so her match must be coming from further up. That would be either Archibald Frazer b. 1778 or Ann Stinson. The three matching people pointing out this crossover are from Australia, Colorado and Canada.

Sorting Out Doreen’s Chromosome 9

Doreen has a TG in yellow which may represent James and Violet. Then Doreen has a green TG with Doug and Rita which would indicate an Archibald/Stinson TG.

However, between those TGs, Doreen has a single match with Jane:

At first, I thought that this match with Jane may indicate a crossover for Doreen. However, it may also indicate a false match between Jane and Doreen. Note that sisters Susan and Doreen match each other between 155 and 140M. Why wouldn’t Jane also match Susan if it was a true match?

Doreen’s TG on Chromosome 16

Here we see a TG between Patricia, Susan, Doreen and Vivien:

Doreen, Susan and Pat are 4th cousins, once removed with Vivien.

Here is the TG Summary Sheet:

Vivien looks far away in the chart but that is because many are in the Richard Frazer b. 1777 Line as well as the Archibald/Stinson Line.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Some of Doreen’s matches on Chromosome 1 appear to define separate segments for married first cousins James Frazer b. 1804 and Violet Frazer b. 1803
  • Doreen’s DNA results have revealed some new Triangulation Groups
  • Doreen’s TGs appear to represent James and Violet Frazer ancestors or Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Ancestors
  • Doreen’s results brought out some matches with Vivien
  • Two matches with Vivien appeared to show a crossover in Vivien’s DNA from Parker to Frazer
  • One single match with between Doreen and Jane could be false
  • A look at David’s TG appears to have him more solidly in the Richard Frazer Line (b. 1777)
  • When Doreen’s brother’s DNA results come in, it will be possible to look at visual phasing of three siblings’ DNA. This will show where they got their DNA from each of their four grandparents.
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Gary’s Frazer DNA from the James Line

The Title of this Blog probably doesn’t make much sense – except for those who are most into Frazer DNA. This is the Frazer Line from the early 1700’s or before in North Roscommon, Ireland. My previous Blog was on Penny who descends from another James Line.

The James Line of the Frazer Tree

James above had two children that we are following through the DNA of their descendants. Archibald had more descendants that have had their DNA tested. Penny comes down on the Archibald side on the left. Gary is on the Michael side on the right. Note that Gary is a 1st cousin to Judith, second cousin to Bonnie and 3rd cousin to Beverly. Also note that the Michael Line is somewhat isolated from the other James Line side.

The Michael Line

Some more on michael

As shown above, Michael Frazer was born around 1764 and was buried at Ardcarne Church 17 Mar 1837. According to a McMaster researcher friend of mine, there was a William McMaster in 1812 who was a tenant either with or of Michael Frazer in Aghrafinegan, on Lord Lorton’s estate. This is probably the same Mick Frazer in the 1834 Tithe Applotment.

This shows “Mr. Mick Frazer & Co.” as the major land holder in Cleragh. Actually he held a little over half the total area of Cleragh. My guess is that he may have had some part in the collection of land rents for Lord Lorton.

Here is a map of Cleragh:

Many Frazers lived in this area in the early 1800’s. The McPartlands who have a Frazer ancestor lived in Derreenargan. My own ancestors were from Derrycashel. Michael’s son Archibald married Catherine Knott and apparently took over the land and house. We see an Archibald living in Clerragh in the Griffith’s Valuation.

I have been educated in the past to understand that here Archibald Frazer, jun. was not necessarily the son of another Archibald Frazer. I have been told that in this area the distinction was between any two people of the same name. At any rate, this younger Archibald Frazer is the one with the house, so I assume that he is the one who took over Michael’s house.

Here is the detailed map showing Lot 9a which was where Archibald and Catherine presumably lived in the SW corner of Cleragh.

Just above 9a is a heavy red line. That is the boundary between Clerragh and Derrycashel. My ancestor James Frazer lived in lot 12 next door to Archibald. That means that Gary’s ancestors and my ancestors must have been neighbors. James to Archibald, circa 1840: “How about coming over tomorrow night with Catherine for some pheasant and gruel?”

Here is the old James Frazer homestead in Derrycashel.

All I need to do is cut down a few trees growing in the house and it should be back to move-in condition!

Gary’s DNA in the Michael Line

I would expect that Gary should have the largest DNA match with Judith, a medium match with Bonnie and smaller match with Beverly. I won’t post all the details, but here is the summary of Gary’s match with his 1st cousin Judith:

They share over 1,000 cM of DNA which is a little over average for 1st cousins. This shared DNA is either from Wilmot Merlin Frazer b. 1875 or his wife. Now as this study is about the Frazer line, I am not interested in Wilmot’s wife’s DNA. So about half of the 1,000 cM or 500 cM or so should be Frazer DNA.

Gary’s DNA match with his 2nd cousin Bonnie

An average number of generations to MRCA for 2nd cousins is 3.0, so again Gary seems to have more than the average Frazer DNA. Of this roughly 300 cM of DNA shared between Gary and Bonnie, about half would be from Michael Frazer b. 1843. The other half of the DNA would be from his wife Charlotte Davidson. Again, I’m not interested in Charlotte’s DNA. Sorry, Charlotte.

Gary’s match with his 3rd cousin Beverly

What do you think the match will look like between Gary and Beverly? So far, it has gone from 1,000 cMs to 300, cMs. That is down by about 30%. If we follow the same trend, 30% of 300 is about 90 cM.

Surprise. Only 11.4 cM. By the DNA, gedmatch would predict that these  two are 4th cousins rather than third cousins. Here are the ISOGG statistics for cousin matching:

This gives the average cMs and the ranges of DNA shared for the above relationships. So as far as the average cM amounts, Gary went high, high, low. This shows how variable DNA can be.

Comparing Gary’s DNA to All Frazer DNA

These results were a little surprising:

This shows that outside of the Michael Line in the lower right box, Gary doesn’t really match anyone at the 7 cM threshold level. He has small matches with siblings Jonathan and Janet and with Doug and his Aunt Rita from the Archibald Line. I suppose this could be due to the isolation of the Michael line from the other main branch of the James Line.

Gary provides an important piece of the puzzle in the Michael Line of the Frazers of Roscommon. His DNA results clearly show his descent from Michael Frazer and Charlotte Davidson. Gary’s match with Beverly is within the range of a 3rd cousin. Perhaps more testing of descendants of the Fitzgerald Frazer Line that Beverly is on would have clarify this Archibald Frazer/Catherine Knott Branch.

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Penny of the California James Line of the Frazers

I have had a few emails from Joanna about Penny. Joanna is interested in Penny’s DNA results as both Joanna and Penny are on the James Line of the Frazers of Northern Roscommon, Ireland. Joanna tells me that Penny “…is descended from William Fitzgerald Frazer of Sacramento – if you remember he is my great grandfather Thomas Henry Frazer’s oldest brother”.

Some James Line Frazer Genealogy

Penny is on the bottom left of the chart. Clyde and Carol were all alone on the Frazer/Grant line but now they have Penny. Joanna is about the middle of the chart in red. If all has gone according to the chart, then Penny is a 3rd cousin to Clyde and a 3rd cousin once removed to Joanna.

Penny’s DNA and the James Line Frazers

Joanna has given me permission to look at her DNA results at AncestryDNA. This what Joanna’s match to Penny looks like:

Ancestry is sometimes conservative with their predicted relationship based on the DNA vs. the actual, so this sounds about right.

As mentioned above, Penny’s closest relative in the Frazer DNA Project is Clyde. This is what Penny’s and Clyde’s DNA match looks like at Gedmatch.com:

This represents the DNA that Penny and Clyde both got from their shared ancestors William Fitzgerald Frazer and Margaret Graham. Both segments could be from one or the other ancestor or one segment could be Frazer and another could be Graham DNA. I say this because if both segments that were passed down were Graham DNA, then Clyde and Penny would not be matching others in the Frazer DNA – at least not on the Frazer side. An MRCA of 4.5 could be a 3rd cousin once removed by DNA. This just means that Penny and Clyde share a little less than the average amount of DNA for 3rd cousins.

Penny’s DNA and All the Roscommon-Descended Frazers

Here I have sorted the matches into Archibald Line and James Line. This shows that most of Penny’s matches are on the James Line side. This makes sense given the genealogy we have.

Penny’s DNA in the James Line Group

Here is a larger view of Penny in just a portion of the James Line. Here Penny matches others by DNA  in the Archibald b. about 1792 Branch except for Charlotte, Mary and Madeline.

This does not mean that Charlotte, Madeline and Mary should be kicked off the Archibald line as Madeline has good matches with Jonathan, Janet, Betty and Clyde. I checked Penny for triangulation in the James Line group, but didn’t see any obvious triangulation groups.

Penny’s Matches with Joanna and Janet

Here is the match that Penny has with Joanna as seen in Gedmatch. Penny has the exact same match with Joanna’s sister Janet, but not with Jonathan.

I mention this because I have done some Chromosome Mapping for Joanna and her family. Here is Chromosome 15:

This shows that Joanna and Janet have a full dose of Frazer on their Paternal side. Jonathan is about 1/3 Frazer and 2/3 Seymore on the Paternal side of his Chromosome 15. Note the CY on the Map. This is for Charlotte who also matches Joanna and Janet on Chromosome 15. Charlotte descends from the McPartlands of North Roscommon. Their ancestor Owen McPartland married an Ann Frazer who could have been born around 1830.

Triangulation with Charlene, Penny, Joanne and Janet

We don’t have triangulation with known trees, but we do have triangulation with unknown trees. By unknown, I mean that we don’t know how the trees connect to our Frazer trees.  My most recent Blog on the McPartland connection is here. Based on this triangulation, one scenario could be that Ann Frazer b. about 1830, could have been the daughter of Archibald b. about 1792. Making this assumption, this could be how the Triangulation Group (TG) plays out:

Adding Speculation to Speculation – My McMaster Line

In my previous Blog on the McPartland connection, I showed this TG:

Now what if Margaret Frazer was a brother to Archibald Frazer b. around 1792? That would move the left side of my old TG on Chromosome 9 up a generation. I do that in part to fit the dates. Here is what I come up with:

Charlene is a key player in all of this. She is in a TG with Sharon, Paul, Karen and Chris in purple and in a TG with Penny, Joanna and Janet in yellow. This is the best explanation I have at this time. Hey, all these people had to come from somewhere. And all their DNA had to come from somewhere.  This is one explanation. It fits the McPartlands into the Frazer tree and some of my McMaster ancestors into the Frazer tree at the same time.

Checking the Purple TG9

When I check how Paul matches Sharon, Charlene, Karen and Chris, this is what I get:

This means that there are actually 2 TGs here. One is with Paul, Sharon and Charlene and one is with Paul, Sharon, Karen and Chris. Still, the overall effect is the same. The common ancestor as per my diagram would be the elder Archibald Frazer b. 1751. So that goes back quite  a way.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I believe that Penny’s DNA results clearly confirm that she is in the James Line of Frazers
  • Charlotte, Madeline and Mary seem to show less than average DNA matches for their relationships within the Archibald (b. about 1792) Branch.
  • I used Penny’s TG with Charlene, Joanna and Janet to come up with a proposed McPartland tree
  • I then used TGs with Paul, my sister Sharon, Charlene, Chris and Karen to come up with a Frazer/McMaster Tree.  Actually, I already had the McMaster/Frazer tree and wasn’t sure where it fit in. I had already assumed based on previous X Chromosome analysis and other factors that this tree should be on the James Line.
  • The tree I drew fits the information that I have now. Further testing may further support or disprove this theory.
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Don’s Frazer DNA

I recently had an email from Ros introducing me to her 3rd cousin Don. Don is a Frazer descendant and genealogist who had recently taken an autosomal DNA test. Both Ros and Don are from Australia. I am happy to write a Blog about Don and his DNA. Unfortunately, due to a storm here in Massachusetts, our power is out. No problem, I can use my laptop. However, I had to figure out to connect to the internet through my cell phone. Now I know how to do that.

Before the electricity went out, I checked Gedmatch and Don matches my sister Lori.

This is quite interesting as I have mapped out the DNA for myself and 4 of my siblings. Lori is the only one out of 5 tested siblings that has Frazer DNA in that area of Chromosome 13. The map shows how we got the DNA from our four grandparents. Our grandparent of interest to this group is Frazer.

The others siblings have mostly or all Hartley DNA on their paternal sides. Also Lori was the last sibling that was tested. This points out the importance of testing siblings.

Here is the line that Don is on:

As Don is a 3rd cousin to Ros, that means that he descends from John Parker Frazer and Honora White on the left purple line. My sister Lori isn’t even on this line. She descends from a Frazer one layer up making her a 6th cousin to Don. That is quite a way back for DNA to be working, so that’s pretty good. Put another way, Lori and Don’s common Frazer ancestor is 7 generations away.

Don’s Frazer/Stinson Line DNA Matches

Don’s closest relative on the Frazer/Stinson DNA chart above is Vivien. She is a second cousin once removed to Don. Vivien is also Don’s top match on his ‘One to Many’ list at Gedmatch.

Don and Vivien’s common ancestors John Parker Frazer and Honora White are actually 3.5 generations away. That is, 3 generations from Vivien and 4 from Don average out to 3.5 generations. Gedmatch shows that the common ancestor by DNA is 3.4 generations away. That means that Don and Vivien share a slightly less amount of DNA than average. I would expect that about half of the DNA they share would be Frazer DNA and half would be Frazer DNA.  One odd thing was that I didn’t see Vivien’s daughter Jean on Don’s list of DNA matches.

don and ros

The next person on Don’s ‘One to Many’ list is Ros. By that list, it looks like they share 28 cM of DNA/ However when I choose the actual match, it shows that they share much less DNA than that for some reason:

An average amount of DNA shared between 3rd cousins is 74 cM, so that raises some questions. Did Ros just get a lot less than average (which is possible) or perhaps there was a second marriage for one the ancestors in common or other explanation.

don and michael

Based on the chart above, Don and Michael are 4th cousins, once removed.

Note that Don and Michael share a segment on Chromosome 7. This is the same segment that Don and Vivien shared. That would mean that Don and Michael would have gotten this DNA from either Archibald Frazer, b. 1778 or Ann Stinson. That is pretty old DNA.

The New and Improved Frazer Autosomal Matrix

I made some changes to the Frazer Autosomal DNA Matrix

I tried to put the Matrix more in line with what I think the genealogy is.

  • Heidi through Gladys descend from Violet and James Frazer. Violet is the daughter of Richard. James father is unknown, but I have put him as a son of Philip Frazer as a likely candidate.
  • Patricia, Susan, Bill and Gladys under that scenario descend from all three sons in the Archibald Line: Philip, Richard and Archibald (who married Ann Stinson).
  • I have Michael and Jane descending from Richard and Archibald
  • Cathy through Don descend only from the Archibald that married Ann Stinson.

Don’s Triangulation Group (TG) Matrix

Here I have added Don to the existing Frazer DNA TG Matrix.

Don is in two Triangulation Groups. The first one I already had with Michael, Vivien and Janet.

I took Michael from the Richard Line as I don’t know if the match is with him there or in the Archibald/Stinson Line. I don’t know for sure that the common ancestor that the DNA is identifying is the original Frazer couple in Ireland or someone else. A good candidate for the ‘someone else’ would be anywhere there is an unnamed spouse in the direct ancestry.

The second TG is new and is with Pat and Susan.

This seems more straightforward than the previous TG. However, this TG could represent a common ancestor a generation earlier as the yellow family above also descends from the Richard Frazer line (brother of the Archibald above). However, that would be less likely than the above scenario.

Don’s YDNA

Don hasn’t tested for YDNA, but as a direct Frazer descendant, he would be a good candidate for it. So far, three Irish Frazers from our DNA study roup have taken the YDNA STR test. Two have been from the Archibald Line and one from the James Line. These lines go back to the early 1700’s in Ireland. The most recent STR tree that I drew for the Irish Frazers is here:

That STR tree reflects this genealogical tree:

Right now the STRs 391=11 and CDYa = 45-50 define the Archibald Frazer born about 1715 Line. The STR 444 = 13 that Rick has defines the Richard Patterson Frazer b. 1830 Line. The STR 576 = 19 defines the George Frazer b. 1838 Line. If Don were to test his YDNA STRs, that would define the line of Archibald Frazer b. about 1778 who married Ann Stinson Line.

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Frazer YDNA Update and Some Early Frazer Research

A few things have been going on the Frazer DNA and genealogy front:

  • Results are still coming in from our Frazer-related Stewart/Stuart BigY test results
  • A new YFull Tree has come out
  • A Frazer researcher has shared some of his information with us on Frasers in Scotland

Stewart/Stuart Big Y Results

In my last Blog on the subject I gave more information, so this is just an update. Once our Stewart tester got his Big Y results, there was still more analysis by the R1a YDNA project administrator, Martin. I was interested to hear what Martin has to say as these administrators are talented and take their volunteer position seriously. I found this part of Martin’s analysis interesting:

Around 1000 AD this subclade YP6488 splits in 3 family lines Grant, Stuart and Frazer. The date 1000 AD is not very certain because we see a wide variation in the number of private SNP’s in these family lines. Normally we calculate with 130 years per SNP (or one SNP mutation in 4-5 generations), but this average figure is only valid for a large number of samples. The total average number of SNP’s downstream M417 is on average about 50 for Subclade R1a-L664. However Grant and you have only resp 42 and 45 (see red number at bottom of chart) and the Frazer’s have more or less the average number of 50 (excluding the extra SNP’s found in the Yfull analysis). So the best guess for the MRCA of the Grant/Stuart/Frazer families is for me still 1000 AD, but with a large margin.

Here is the new R-YP5515 portion of the tree with Stuart added:

I erased the FTDNA kit numbers for privacy. I hadn’t realized that the red numbers were important at the bottom of the tree. Now I realize that they are, so I have included them. [See the explanation above in italics.] The addition of Stuart to the group has the effect of changing the separation date of the Frazers, Grant and Stuart to the year 1,000 A.D. Before Stuart, it showed Frazer and Grant separating at the year 900 A.D. Not a big difference, but it does show the effect of the Stuart test on  Grant and Frazer.

I was also in touch with Martin and he was seemed excited about a new member to the group:

Today we have new member, which I think is interesting for the members of subclade YP5515>YP6479  It is #______ from Sweden and he has the typical STR haplotype for this subclade. Up to now all members of YP5515 had their roots in Scotland/Ireland, but we expect YP5515 came originally from Scandinavia. This new member could be a proof that YP5515 came from Scandinavia if he is willing to do a BigY test.

So we will have to wait to see how this plays out. It appears that if this person were to do the BigY test, this could give us a more exact time of when our ancestors came from Scandinavia to Scotland. Speaking of this, I thought about Martin’s comments to our Stuart tester and came up with this drawing:

I used a little bit of guessing. It seemed like the best route from Sweden to Scotland would be by water. Perhaps our ancestors made some stops in current Norway before settling in the Inverness area. Their route from Inverness to the shore SE of Glasgow is based on some Frazer traditions. I noted that it is a pretty straight shot from there to County Roscommon where they certainly were according to the 1749 Census. They could have traveled by boat again, but there have been Scots known to be in Ulster also.

A New YFull YTree v 5.06

YFull analyzes Big Y results. For those that use their service, they come up with a tree and other analyses. Here is the current version of YFull’s YTree:

Compared to the last YTree, this has added YP6488 and YP6489. The Stuart tester is not yet included in this analysis. So his analysis should come out as YP6488. Note that YFull has a TMRCA of 800 years before present for YP6488 or roughly 1200 A.D. This is an important date as it is where there is a split between the Grant, Stuart and Frazer families. I feel that Martin’s tree may be more accurate. On his tree, the analogous date appears to be 1,000 A.D. That seems to get into those red numbers that I mentioned above. Perhaps YTree saw the fewer SNPs for Grant and Stuart and figured that represented a more recent date. Martin, being a real person, was able to take ambiguities into account and give a more plausible date.

Early Frazer Research

I am grateful to Alan for bringing together and to light research on Frasers in Scotland that might link to our Frazers in County Roscommon, Ireland. Alan’s research appears to indicate the following:

  • James Fraser of Knock married Mary Ramsay in 1628.
  • That James was the son of John Fraser of Knock
  • Mary Ramsay was the daughter of “Mr Andrew Ramsay one the ministers of Edinburgh“
  • James was associated with “…Montrose during the sojourn of the royal forces in the west of Scotland. The laird of Knock [James] denied having had any concern in the protection…”
  • “James Fraser of Knock
    March 13, 1649: Presbytery of Irvine: it was reported on this day to the Presbytery that “upon the day of tendering the Covenant, the laird of Knock, because it was told him that he wald not admitted to the Covenant, absented himself from the kirk in the afternoon”. For “his scandalouslie absenting himself fra the kirk the day of swearing the covenant”, the Session of Largs were ordered not only to proceed in the process against the laird, but that this latter offence should be taken into the process. Paterson states ‘that in 1650 the process was still continued against him, though meantime he had fled to Ireland to escape the persecution to which he and others were subjected’.
    [Paterson, James: History of the County of Ayr, Vol. II, p. 309]”
  • Apparently this same James shows up in 1673 in Aberdeenshire as a “minister of word of God at the Church of Ellen“

Knock is part of Largs Parish:

Here is a modern view of the updated Knock Castle:

Alan informs us that the modern day spelling of Ellen is Ellon:

This looks like it would be an interesting place to visit.

  • There is mention of an Archibald and William Frazer in reference 11 compiled by Alan. This appears to be in a document signing over the property at Knock. However, the relationship of Archibald and William to James and his younger brother Alexander are not apparent.

So where does this leave us? Alan’s research adds some clarity to the traditions of the Frasers of Knock circulated among some of the Frazer descendants. It shows that there was a controversial figure named James Fraser of Knock who held the Knock Castle and property. He got into some trouble with the authorities in the area of Largs, fled to Ireland for a while and showed up in Aberdeenshire as a minister where he apparently died.

My assumption is that the Frazers that moved to County Roscommon were familiar with James of Knock and probably were living in the same area before moving to Ireland. What is not sure is whether our Irish Frazers were closely related, distantly related or unrelated to James Frazer of Knock. Joanna of our study group has mentioned that there are Frasers and Frazers still around in the area of Largs. It would interesting to find out if there is any DNA connection between these Fraser/Frazers and our Frazers.

Any comments are welcome in case I have misinterpreted Alan’s research.

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Stuart Added to the YDNA Group of Frazer, Grant, Hayes and Patton

I just found out about some exciting news. A Stuart that likely originates from the same area in Scotland as the Frazers has gotten his BigY results back. This is one of the best tests for YDNA. It places people in YDNA trees and shows how families originated. I’d like to look at those results to see where this Stuart fits in with Frazers and other related families.

BigY and YDNA Basics

The important thing to remember about YDNA is that it is very simple. You are only dealing with one Chromosome versus the 22 autosomal chromosomes. Then you are only dealing with one line of ancestors. That is your father’s, his father’s father’s and so on. The Big Y tests SNPs. SNPs are mutations that happen every four or so generations on average. The Big Y tests these SNP and how they have changed since our original ancestor – called genetic Adam. When you get your Big Y results you get a lot of SNP names. These are the SNP differences between you and Adam:

You will have the first SNP that differentiated you from “Adam” up to the one that got you into the R group. Our group of Frazer, Hayes, Grant, Patton and Stuart are in a still very general group called R1a. The understanding is that this group traveled a bit to the North of the R1b group. The thought is that our R1a group made their way up through the current country of Germany to Scandinavia. From there they made their way somehow to Scotland.

snps and variants

These SNPs carry down to what is called a terminal SNP. This is the last or most recent SNP that is named and is usually shared with another person. After that, the SNPs are not generally named and called Variants. These are the newest of all. Once others test and these Variants can be placed in a tree, they will extend the branches of the tree further into the present and will also be named.

what is confusing about YDNA?

STRs are a little more confusing, but I won’t be looking at them here. They can be confusing because the values for these can go up or down. SNPs however happen once and then they are set in stone. One of the major confusing things about SNPs are their names. The SNP names are based on the lab or group that discovered the SNP. That means that there is no logical progression in the name that shows the change from an older SNP to a newer SNP.

Here is an example from the R1a Project spreadsheet:

This shows two Frazers and an unnamed tester. The turquoise heading shows the progression of the SNP names. They start at M417 and end at R-YP6489. The unnamed person did not have his SNPs tested, so he has a conservative red designation for his SNP based on the values of his STRs which appear to the right. He is probably actually R-YP6489 based on his STRs, but he hasn’t taken the test, so he has a SNP value that is likely thousands of years older than R-YP6489. I’ll try to address a few more items of confusion as they come up. However, in general they have to do with the naming of SNPs.

So far:

  • YDNA SNPs are simple. According to YFull, there is a new high quality family SNP in your line every 144.41 years. They change about every four generations just on the direct male line. In my 2nd cousin once removed Paul’s case, four generations takes him back to his 2nd great grandfather. Between Paul b. 1944 and his great grandfather James Frazer b. about 1804 there are 140 years. Between those 5 people there is likely a new SNP. Or maybe none or two. But most likely one.
  • Based on these changes back to Genetic Adam we can make a YDNA tree.
  • The SNP names are complicated and don’t represent the progression of the SNP changes in the YDNA Tree.

Three Different YDNA Trees

There are three different YDNA trees for our R1a Group all trying to show the same thing. They are:

  • FTDNA Haplotree
  • FTDNA administrator Tree
  • YFull YTree
ftdna haplotree

FTDNA is the Big Y testing company. They have a tree that shows the end result of the Big Y testing. They call their tree the Haplotree. Here is the current tree for my Frazer cousin that I had tested:

There are several levels above this, but this is the current bottom of the tree. It ends in R-YP6489. This is consistent with the FTDNA R1a Project Spreadsheet above. A lot has been happening since I wrote my last Blog on the subject just two months ago. At that time our Frazer terminal SNP on this tree was YP432. Now we are four levels below that.

ftdna administrator R1a tree

This is a good tree, but it is private, so it is not published anywhere. I had referred to it in previous Blogs by taking out some of the ID’s. The other issue is that I got to see it when our Frazer Big Y test results came in, but I haven’t gotten any updates. Here is what I had before. It looks like FTDNA has since caught up with the FTDNA R1a Administrator tree:

One good thing that the Administrator does is put dates on the SNPs. So for example the date of our common Frazer ancestor is 1600. That is very close to the actual date of 1690 which is when we believe the common ancestor to have been born. Another good check is to see if the date between different surnames is before the advent of surnames. Notice that the year 900 A.D. splits off Grant (and now Stuart) from Frazer. I recently heard that the advent of surnames was around 1,000 A.D. and they came into use for several hundred years after that depending on the region and other factors. Another point is that, if the 1600 A.D. date is correct for this SNP, it would ensure that this is indeed a Frazer Family SNP. Any male Frazer that want to prove his Frazer lineage, would just have to test for this SNP. This SNP should separate the Frazers from non-Frazers – or at least our brand of Frazers.

From a recent Stuart email, I gather that his new result is R-YP6488 which is what Grant is also. That would place Stuart next to the Grant in the middle line above. Time to pull out the Clan map of the Inverness and South. This shows Fraser (Frazer), Grant, and Stewart (Stuart). For me, the geography pulls together what the DNA is showing us. That is, that at least this group of Frazer/Grant/Stewart had a common ancestor probably before the beginning of taking on of surnames in this area South of Inverness.

According to the R1a Administrator: “It looks like between 1400 BC and 400 BC some (or maybe only one) YP432 people migrated from Scandinavia to Scotland.” I am guessing they hung out there for 1,000 years or so. In 900 A.D., one of those former Scandinavians had children. Their descendants stuck around in the Inverness area for several hundred years. When people were taking on clan names, they took on the names of Fraser, Stewart or Grant probably based on where they were living at the time. We have another Chisolm/Chisum who has tested STRs but not the Big Y. He appears to fit into this pattern also.

Yfull Ytree

I wrote my last two Blogs on Frazer YDNA in mid July and the new YFull YTree v5.05 is dated 30 July 2017. It is big news when this tree comes out. Here is the latest version.

On YTree’s web site, they say they try to come out with a new YTree every month, but it seems more like two months before they come out with a new one. So it is now that YTree is lagging behind FTDNA. The Frazers are shown as being at R-YP6479. That is correct, but outdated. They actually are YP6479>YP6488>YP6489. When the new YTree comes out, this should be corrected. Note that next to YP6479, it says, +12 SNPs. When you hover over this box, the additional 12 named SNPs appear. They include the SNPs YP6488 and YP6489 which now form branches. By seeing these new SNPs, it is like we are going back 1200 years or so and seeing these new branches and families form.

What people wait for is the YTree’s dates. YFull has YP5515 as formed 3200 years ago and the TMRCA which is time to the most recent common ancestor as 2200 years ago. It will be especially interesting to see what YFull comes up with for dates on YP6489. At this time, YP6489 seems to be a Frazer family-only SNP as no other families have laid claim to it.

One of the down sides of YFull is that they don’t have all the testers. They only have people in the tree that have signed up for their service. Another issue is that YFull uses ID’s only, so in order to find out who the ID’s belong to you need to message the ID contact. In the tree above, my Frazer cousin is the ID without the ‘new’ designation after it. However, they do have advantages over FTDNA which make them a worthwhile option to use in Big Y analysis.

FTDNA SNP Matching and the Mystery SNP L1012

FTDNA’s Big Y SNP matching is one of those things that doesn’t work well. As I mentioned, my cousin Paul and (by inference) I share our terminal YP6489 with one other Frazer tester. However, when I choose to look for SNP matches at zero difference, it appears to give me 35 entries. Our new tester Stuart is not included in those 35. It appears that the SNPs have not been updated for this search. I think that FTDNA tried to correct this by putting in a subclade search option at the top of the SNP matching area:

 

This feature usually works. However, the R-Y2894 SNP seems out of place as it is several layers above R-YP5515. Here is the result when I choose R-YP6488:

The right people come up (Grant and Stuart), but it shows that there is not a match on L1012. When I look Up L1012, it appears to be an early “Adamic” SNP:

I suppose that there a few kinks in the FTDNA system, unless I am missing something.

Implications of R-YP6489

YP6489 is a fairly recent SNP. So far, this SNP has been dated at about the year 1600 by the R1a Administrator. This SNP came about because of tandem Big Y Frazer tests. As a result, we were able to get a SNP that represents the Frazer family. This SNP can be used to verify that a Frazer male is part of our Irish Frazers. There is another possible use of this SNP. Say that a Frazer with no known Irish history were to test positive for this SNP. That would forge a link between Ireland and the part of Scotland that the Frazers moved from. There may be no further paper records to be found that would link the Frazers to Scotland. There were no immigration requirements for moving from Scotland to Ireland. Many of the vital records have been lost or destroyed. However, the DNA could be the “record” that would link our Frazers to other Frazers that never moved to Ireland.

The YP6488 SNP does not show a single family origin for Grant and Stuart. YP6488 is also shared by our two Frazer testers. The Grant and Stuart families likely have a SNP at the level of YP6489 that represents each of their families. To get to this level would require an addition Grant or Stuart Big Y test. However, if another Stuart or Grant were to test positive for YP6488 by just doing a single SNP test, they would have proof that they are looking in the right area.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Our new Stuart tester is a welcome and enthusiastic addition to our part of the YDNA tree.
  • The Stuarts, Grants, Frazers and others have shared early ancestry. This has now been determined by YDNA testing
  • The area that the Stuart, Grant and Frazer families originated from was likely just South of Inverness
  • Single testing of YP6489 should indicate Frazer ancestry.
  • Single testing of YP6488 should indicate at least Grant, Frazer or Stuart.
  • The next step is to wait for updated YDNA trees from YFull and the R1a Administrator.