Author: joel@jmhartley.com

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Looking for the Father of Blake Through DNA

I recently received a message from Stephanie at AncestryDNA. She is interested in finding out who her father’s father is. Stephanie was able to trace her paternal grandfather’s ancestry to Newfoundland through DNA matches. Stephanie also uploaded her dad’s DNA to Gedmatch, which should help. Both Stephanie and I understand that Newfoundland ancestry is complicated. I’m also a bit handicapped working on my laptop.

Blake and Esther

Esther is my wife’s half great Aunt. Here are Esther’s grandparents’ surnames:

  • Upshall
  • Dicks
  • Shave
  • Kirby

These four grandparents go back to when genealogical records were scarce. My understanding is that they were all from Harbour Buffet in Newfoundland and that the Church burned down there which resulted in the loss of early vital records. Stephanie thought that her father could be associated with the names of Brown, Hodder, Faith, Reid and Worrell. However, I see none of those names in Esther’s ancestry.

Looking at Blake’s DNA

I asked Stephanie if her father’s DNA was at Gedmatch and she surprised me by saying yes. She had been in touch with Marilyn who had suggested that she upload her father’s DNA to that web site. This should help in analyzing the DNA. Esther is Blake’s first match at Gedmatch, so I can see why Stephanie would be interested in this match.

The X Chromosome

I’ll get this out of the way. Blake is believed to be related to Esther on his paternal side. The father does not pass down the X Chromosome to his son. Therefore, I would not expect Blake to match Esther on the X Chromosome. Looking at Gedmatch, I see that to be the case. This is not a proof, but supporting evidence that Blake matches Esther on his paternal side.

Diving Into Gedmatch

Let’s look at how Blake and Esther match at Gedmatch:

This looks impressive. Gedmatch thinks that Blake and Esther could have a common ancestor 3 generations ago. That would be at Esther’s great-grandparent level. The good news is that I have all the surnames for Esther filled in at this level, except for Elizabeth and I believe that she should be a Crann. The bad news is that if Blake and Esther are related on several lines, the relationships could be further back in time.

Gedmatch and Triangulation

The classic way to find unknown ancestry is through triangulation. The theory is that if A matches B by DNA, B matches C and A matches C, then the DNA from that match if it is from the same segment of the same Chromosome should point to a common ancestor. That means that if Blake is C and we have A and B with known ancestry, then their ancestry can be applied to C – or Blake in this case. However, the problem is finding out how far back in time this common ancestry is.

Common Matches at Gedmatch

First I’ll look at Blake and Esther’s common matches at Gedmatch. To do that I use a utility called “People who match both, or one of two kits”.

I’ve never watched the video mentioned above. I’ll put in Blake’s Gedmatch number first as I want to see his closest shared matches with Esther. I took the top 15 matches on that list and then chose the triangulation option at Gedmatch.

The checklist above lists Blake’s 15 top shared matches with Esther. By the way, Esther may not be the best person to do this shared analysis with. I chose her because she was Blake’s closest match and because I already know something about her genealogy. Esther is a special case as her father was born in 1879. That means that Esther will have closer than normal DNA matches to most people.

Let’s Triangulate

I am able to do this at Gedmatch because I am on Tier 1 at least for a few more days. I assume that this saves me a huge amount of time. Here were my options for Blake’s 15 matches:

I chose Triangulation.

Blake’s first triangulation is on his Chromosome 1 between Blake, M.W. and djm. Here I am a bit out of my element as I don’t know much about the genealogy of M.W. and djm. However, I like this triangulation as it is a large one of 47 cM:

This triangulation features two people who Esther is not closely matched to by DNA, so I would suspect that this match represents a set of common ancestors for Blake outside of Esther’s known ancestry. I was able to find M.W. at Ancestry, but M.W. had no tree. I believe that djm would have tested originally at FTDNA.

Another large triangulation is on Chromosome 20:

Anne appears in many of these triangulations. Each green segment represents a triangulation between Blake and two others. The largest segment represents triangulation between Blake, Anne and Joan, my mother-in-law. Let’s see if we can now triangulate the genealogy.

Fortunately, I found Anne in one of my charts that mixes DNA matches and genealogy:

This shows that Joan and Anne have the common ancestors of Christopher Dicks and Elizabeth. I have guessed based on DNA matches that she could be a Crann. This could mean a few things. It could mean that Blake’s ancestors are Christopher Dicks and Elizabeth Crann. Or it could mean that Blake’s ancestors are one generation back from Christopher Dicks and his wife Elizabeth.

Adding Brenda to the Mix

These two triangulated segments on Chromosome 20 represent matches with Brenda:

The first highlighted segmented is the triangulation between Blake, Anne and Brenda. The second is the triangulation between Blake, Joan and Brenda. Here is Brenda in my DNA tree:

Here is an analogous Crann tree. However, this one is more speculative especially on the part where my mother-in-law Joan is:

From this exercise, I gather that Blake descends from the Dicks family and probably the Crann family, though the genealogy is shaky with the Crann family.

I note that Stephanie has these potential ancestors at Ancestry on a speculative tree:

I am not tracking Sarah Ann Dicks on my Dicks tree. However, I may not have run across her yet as the descendant of a DNA match. Here is a Dicks/Reid connection I have on my tree:

Blake probably does not descend from this couple as that would make Anne and Blake first cousins once removed and this would be obvious from the DNA matches.

Anything Else?

There are more analyses that could be done. I like to do an autosomal DNA matrix match at Gedmatch, but I couldn’t get that to work today. That could give a hint as to which Dicks line Blake is most affiliated with. Another helpful tool is clustering. There are two programs for this. One is Auto Clusters which has a small fee. The other is Shared Clustering which is free. These tools could also give hints as to Blake’s Newfoundland ancestry.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Stephanie’s dad Blake has a large DNA match with my wife’s half great Aunt Esther. This places Blake’s unknown paternal ancestry solidly in Newfoundland and Esther’s parents were both from Harbour Buffet, Newfoundland.
  • Unfortunately, Newfoundland genetics is confusing due to the amount of intermarriage.
  • In addition, early vital records from Harbour Buffet are missing.
  • Blake’s DNA results have been uploaded to Gedmatch. This makes DNA triangulation possible. Using triangulation, it seems clear that Blake has Dicks and possibly Crann ancestry. This fits well with the direction that Stephanie has been heading in finding paternal ancestors for her father.
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Will’s Newfoundland DNA and Matches to My Wife’s Family

I recently had an email from Will’s 1/2 niece Marilyn. She had uploaded her Uncle’s DNA results to DNA. In the past, I have looked at DNA matches for the Dicks family of Newfoundland and Marilyn is in that project. I am interested in Newfoundland as my wife has some of her ancestry from Harbour Buffet in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland.

Will’s Genealogy

In the tree, Will looks like he must be Marilyn’s 1/2 Great Uncle.

That is interesting, because Will should be a third cousin to Esther who is my wife’s 1/2 Great Aunt. However, Esther and Will have a large DNA match:

Gedmatch guesses that Will and Esther have a common ancestor that is 2.7 generation away. That would be closer to a 1st cousin once removed or a 2nd cousin. Also note that Will and Esther have a lot of matches on different chromosomes that are on the smaller side. My guess is that means that these two are related on several different lines further in the past. Here is how the DNA match looks at FTDNA:

This version includes the X Chromosome. Marilyn had a question about that that I can look at later.

Going Back Further in Will and Esther’s Genealogy

Here is Esther’s genealogy, such as I have it:

I have circled Esther and Will’s known connection. My guess is that there are other connections at the level of Christopher Dicks and Margaret. The problem is that I have eight missing 2nd grandparents for Esther in that row.

It would be good to take a look at Will’s other ancestors also. Will doesn’t have a tree at FTDNA. Apparently, Marilyn’s grandmother remarried and had Will. That means that I know half of Will’s ancestry through Marilyn. Here is the portion of Marilyn’s tree that relates to Will:

I forgot to mention above that Esther is doubly (at least) related to Will as a third cousin:

Will descends from a Joyce line and a Dicks line. I left out Will’s Dick’s connection on the right to save space. As I don’t have a tree for Will, I will try to make a private one at Ancestry. I am also tempted to ‘borrow’ from this tree I found at Ancestry:

Here Uncle Will is listed as Willis Clarke. That same tree has this record:

This shows Zacharias Clarke of Baine Harbour marrying Bertha Slade nee Joyce in 1906. However, the math is a bit off for Bertha’s age if she was born 1871.

This leaves me with a lop-sided tree for Willis:

Willis and Esther and the Crann Connection

Based on some guessing and some DNA matches, I have this Crann connection for Willis and Esther:

Under this scenario, Esther’s great grandfather Christopher Dicks married Elizabeth Crann. Based on the above, Esther and Willis would be 3rd cousins three different ways – two on the Dicks line and one on the Crann Line. If I have this tree right, it may account for all the DNA matches between Esther and Willis.

Crann DNA

One way to isolate the Crann DNA is to go outside of Newfoundland.

This tree shows Henry Crann from Netherbury, Dorset, England. One son, John Crann, ends up in Newfoundland. Another son, Samuel, ends up in New Zealand. That means that if Willis matches Heather, Wayne or Marjorie from New Zealand, it is more than likely that that DNA match will represent Crann ancestry (or Collins).

Here is Willis’ match to Marjorie:

Willis matches Wayne here:

I couldn’t find Heather at Gedmatch, so she may no longer be listed there.

Uncle Will’s X Chromosome

Marilyn wrote to me concerning her Uncle:

He shares DNA with my brother on X Chromosome so that is a mystery to me. 

X DNA inheritance follows a specific pattern. This pattern is more restricted for men as they only inherit an X Chromosome from their parents. By comparing Marilyn’s brother’s tree with Marilyn’s Uncle tree, we will be able to see where recent shared X Chromosome inheritance comes from.

I had started a tree for Uncle Willis, but didnt’ get too far:

After looking at Marilyn’s brother’s tree, I see where Marilyn’s question comes from:

The obvious match between Marilyn’s brother Howie and Uncle Willis is on the paternal side. However, Howie got no X Chromosome from his father. Here is Howie’s X inheritance taken out one more generation:

X Chromosome matches are tricky as they can travel further back in time than other autosomal DNA matches.

Uncle Willis has an X match with Marilyn:

Also with Marilyn’s Aunt DIddie:

Here is Uncle Willis and Howie:

 

Here I can see what happened. Howie only has a small X match with Uncle Willis. As such, I would not bother following this. Assuming that this is a valid match, I would say that this could be a very ancient match. This tells me that Marilyn and Aunt DIddie match Uncle Willis on their paternal side. Howie matches his Uncle Willis on his maternal side, but it is too small of a match to be of much consequence.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was interested in following Marilyn’s Uncle Will’s Crann connections based on my previous research into this line.
  • Some Crann DNA matches can be traced to lines that have never lived in Newfoundland. That makes it easier to identify the DNA from these matches as being from Crann descendants.
  • I stayed away from the Dicks connections in this Blog. It would be helpful to find more DIcks matches that are outside of Newfoundland, so that the DNA for those matches could be determined with more certainty.
  • I looked at Uncle Willis’ X Chromosome matches. The one he had with Howie was confusing at first. That was because Uncle Willis is related to Howie on Howie’s paternal line and Howie got no X DNA from his father. However, as the match was small compared to his sister Marilyn, it was clear that the X DNA match  between Howie and Willis was either a false match or one that goes back many, many generations.
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Hartley’s Pork Pies of Fall River

I have been asked occasionally if there is any connection between my Hartleys and the Hartleys of Hartley’s Pork Pies of Fall River, Massachusetts. Most recently my son asked me the same question. As far as I know there isn’t, but I am curious if these Pork Pie Hartleys came from the same area of England that my Hartleys came from.

Hartley Pork Pies

There have been many articles written about Hartley’s Pork Pies. Boston.com has an article from 2006 that is informative:

The three establishments are descended from a store established by Thomas Hartley, an Englishman who came to the United States in the late 1800s to work in Fall River’s textile mills. Finding factory work not to his liking, he opened a pork pie shop on South Main Street around 1900.

The business was a huge success, as factory workers — mainly immigrants, including many from the British Isles — would pay a nickel and grab a pie for lunch or a snack when their shifts ended. Their popularity gave rise to a Fall River slogan: “The city of mills, hills, and pork pies.”

The business later would fracture.

After his first wife died, Hartley remarried. He had children by both wives, and after his death, the child of one wife took over the Fall River store. The child of the other wife set up three of his children with stores in Somerset, Lincoln, and New Bedford.

Eventually, the New Bedford store closed, while the other three were sold to non family members.

The surviving establishments say they use authentic recipes from Hartley’s kitchen. The Fall River store has one exclusive claim to history, in that it is in the same building where Hartley ran his business.

The historic Hartley’s Pork Pie location is listed at 1729 South Main Street in Fall River.

Thomas Hartley

I was able to find this Thomas Hartley in the 1910 Fall River Census:

In 1910Thomas is living close to South Main Street and is Elizabeth is his second wife. Thomas is listed as a 51 year old restaurant keeper who immigrated in 1890:

This is likely Thomas’ arrival in Philadelphia in 1891:

Here is Thomas in 1900 when he was still a loom fixer:

Here we also have Albert as per the above Philadelphia shipping record and Mary Thornley who was likely Elizabeth’s daughter from her first marriage.

Where Did Thomas Live in England?

These questions are sometimes difficult to determine. Perhaps there is a clue in Thomas’ son Albert. Here is a World War II Draft Card for an Albert Hartley:

If this is the right Albert, then Thomas would have been from Burnley, England. I think that this is a good guess. I also see an Albert Hartley marrying Amy Deakin in 1908 in New Bedford:

This Albert was the son of Thomas Hartley and Nellie Brown. I assume that Nellie died and Thomas remarried before coming to Fall River.

Thomas’ son Clement’s World War I draft card has him born in Burnley also:

Burnley is not too far from where my ancestors lived in Trawden:

Thomas Hartley’s Parents

Above, I had assumed that Thomas married Elizabeth before coming to the Fall River. Based on the marriage record below from 1897, I was wrong:

This is a good record as it gives Elizabeth’s maiden name and former married name which I assume to be Flint and Thornley. Also we have Thomas’ parents who were John Hartley and Martha Hardacre. These could be good clues. I see what happened. It was Ellen on the ship with Thomas from Liverpool to Philadelphia. Ellen died in Fall River in 1896.

Thomas Alvin Hartley

Thomas had a son by his second wife in 1900. Here is Thomas Alvin’s World War I draft card:

From this, it appears that father and son were both Thomas Alvin Hartley.

Thomas Hartley’s First Marriage

This places Thomas and Ellen in Blackburn:

This may be Thomas in 1861 in Blackburn:

He was born in Blackburn, but his older sister Sarah was born in Colne. Here is the rest of the family on the previous page – all born in Colne:

That is not unusual. Many roads lead back to Colne for Hartleys.

Here is the family in 1851 in Colne:

John was born in Trawden, but the rest of the family was born in Colne. At this point, I better quit, knowing that there are hundreds of Hartley families in the area at this time.

Summary and Conclusions

I was curious as to where the Hartley’s Pork Pies Hartleys came from. I looked at Thomas Hartley who was the founder of Hartley’s Pork Pies. I found him in the 1910-1930 Census records in Fall River. I also found his departure shipping records from Liverpool and arrival records in Philadelphia. Thomas had children said to be born in Burnley by his first wife. However, it appears that Thomas was born in Blackburn, Lancashire. Thomas’ other siblings and mother were born in Colne from what I can tell and Thomas’ father was born in Trawden. So based on what appears to be the case, this Hartley family had its roots in the same small Town of Trawden that my Hartley family did. Research in Trawden is difficult as that is where the mother-lode of Hartleys were in the 1800’s.  I could do more research, but it would probably result in diminishing returns. Plus I set out what I wanted to do.

Now I will have to try a Hartley Pork Pie.

 

 

 

 

 

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Trying to Connect One of My Distant Cousins Beverly To a Close DNA Match

I run a DNA project on a certain group of Frazers. As a result, I administer the DNA for a few of the people in the project. One of them is Beverly. Another is Gladys. From time to time I get inquiries about people who match these two by DNA. My most recent email was from someone who matched Beverly at Gedmatch.

Beverly’s Tree

I’m still working on Beverly’s tree:

I blurred Beverly’s parents for privacy. Notice Beverly has Fraser and Frazer ancestors. Isn’t that a bit confusing. The Frazer ancestors go back to Ireland and are the ones I’m interested in.

Beverly’s Cousin’s Tree

I didn’t get Beverly’s cousin’s name. I did get some information. I got a little traction on the Beverly’s cousin’s maternal side:

I thought that the Magloughlen spelling was wrong, but then I found this:

This marker even has a marriage date.

I’ll cheat a little and accept Dorothy’s parents:

There we go, these two must be related on the Post side. Beverly said her father had a Norrie Nephew, so that makes sense. Here is part of the marriage record for Vernon and Gertrude:

Gertrude’s parents were Geo Post and Edith B Fraser. They are Beverly’s paternal grandparents. This is the Fraser that I am not related to.

That means that instead of 2nd cousins as I thought, these two are first cousins twice removed.

The DNA

Here are the matches between Beverly and her cousin:

The estimated number of generations to their common ancestors is 3.2. However, it is two generations for Beverly and four for her cousin, so that averages out to three. This looks to be George and Edith:

Mystery solved.

 

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Angelina: A Close Match on My Mother’s German Latvian Side

When I was out in the State of Washington visiting with my daughter and granddaughter, I came upon a close DNA match for my family. Her name is Angelina and I found her results at MyHeritage.

Here is the summary of the match between my Mom, Gladys and Angelina:

MyHeritage made a guess that these two could be 1st cousin once removed or 2nd cousin. Angelina’s DNA is managed by Georges in Switzerland.

Here is my mom’s tree on her paternal side where she must match Angelina by DNA:

If Angelina and Gladys are 2nd cousins, that would mean that their common ancestors would have to be Rathfelder/Schwechheimer or Gangnus/Lutke. That narrows it down to two choices. Seems simple.

If My Mom and Angelina Are 1st Cousins Once Removed

It is possible that Angelina could descend from this family:

Further, if this was the case, Angelina may descend from one of the daughters of Johann Heinrich Rathfelder. That would be Erna Auguste, Caroline Antonie or Marie Otilie. My reasoning is that if she had descended from a male Rathfelder, then the child would also be a Rathfelder and that Angelina probably would have known that. Unfortunately, I don’t have the information for any of the marriages above except for the last two children: Alexander and Leo.

Comparing the DNA

Here is how my mother’s DNA and Angelina’s DNA match up:

Using DNA Painter, I have painted in Angelina’s DNA matches on my mother’s chromosome map:

The above map just shows my mother’s paternal matches. I called the medium green “Unknown Latvian Ancestor” until we figure out who that ancestor is.

Here is a partial Rathfelder tree with DNA matches that I have identified:

I see that I forgot to add Inese to my Mother’s DNA Painter Map. I’ll add her now:

Between adding Angelina and Inese, that brings my mom from 32% paternally mapped to 40% paternally mapped.

Adding in Assunta

My mother also matches Assunta by DNA. Assunta appears to be the niece of Angelina. I wrote to Assunta previously, but she didn’t know anything about her ancestry. She wrote that she lives in Germany, but her family is from Italy. Assunta expands the DNA matches that Angelina has with my mother on Chromosomes 2 and 11:

Limited Genealogy Options

I am not able to see Angelina’s family tree, but these surnames are listed for her tree:

However, I can’t tell if they are ancestor surnames or descendant or collateral surnames.

Sometimes I do research on a Latvian Genealogy web site: http://www.lvva-raduraksti.lv/

However, that web site is not working now.

Summary and Conclusions

  • My first guess is that Angelina and Assunta descend from one of the daughters of Johann Heinrich Rathfelder and Marie Elisabeth Laura Gangnus.
  • The second guess is that they descend from one of set of the two sets of parents of Heinrich and Marie.
  • It’s frustrating having such a close match as Angelina and Assunta and not knowing exactly where they fit in. However, the connection has been narrowed down.

 

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My Relative Eva and Our DNA Match at MyHeritage

I was checking DNA matches at MyHeritage recently and came across Eva. Here is how Eva matches my mother at MyHeritage:

Eva also has a tree at MyHeritage which is a big help:

As Eva has a Rathfelder ancestor, is from Latvia and matches by DNA, that leads me to believe that we have a common Rathfelder ancestor.

Where Does Eva Fit In the Rathfelder Puzzle?

At first, I thought that Eva’s grandfather Henrihs might fit in here:

My thinking was that there was space between 1882 and 1888. Also that Henrihs could have been named for his father Heinrich. According to Wikipedia, there are quite a few Latvian versions of Henry:

Latvian: Henrijs, Henriks, Heinrihs, Henrihs, Indriķis, Ints, Anrijs, Anrī

Another possibility is the Harry Eduard in the list. I don’t have much information about him. However, that would make Eva and me second cousins, and MyHeritage is guessing that we are 3rd or 4th cousins, so either our DNA match is smaller than usual, or we are related further back. Here is the amount of DNA expected to be shared between 2nd cousins:

The average is 233 cM, but the lower reported range could go as low as 46 cM.

Who was Henrihs Ratfelders Born 1887?

For my research I use mostly:

http://www.lvva-raduraksti.lv/

This website has a list of all Latvians as of 1918-1940.

I don’t see anyone that looks like Henrihs:

I do see Hermanis. He was born 1918-05-14. Hermanis was the son of my grandfather’s brother Leo Rathfelder. Speaking of Leo, he appears three times in the online Latvian database:

This shows correctly that he was born in Riga, but that his ancestry was in Irsu pag. which is the area where the Colony of Hirschenhof was. Interestingly Leonhards’ father’s name is given as Heinrihs. That means that Eva and I have ancestors with both the same first name and last name.

Looking for Zelma Jancevska Born 1907

It looks like there was 20 years difference between Henrihs and Zelma. I couldn’t find Zelma either:

However, I did see  a Zelma Rathfeldere:

Deeper Into the Records of Hirschenhof

It is possible that Henrihs was born in Hirschenhof, so I’ll take a look at those records. Here are the records I need for 1887:

Unfortunately, it seems like the web site is not working properly. I guess I’ll have to try later.

Well, I figured that one out.

Eva’s DNA Matches

Because Eva seems to certainly be related on the Rathfelder side somehow, I’ll add her to DNA Painter for my Mom:

Here is the amount of DNA typically shared between third cousins:

My mother shares 74 cM of DNA with Eva. I share only 28.1 cM with Eva.

Eva’s DNA Matches Shared with My Mom at MyHeritage

These are the matches my Mom and Eva share:

Angelina is a fairly new match and will likely be the subject of my next Blog. My Mom matches her at a high amount. Inese is a descendant of my Mom’s Uncle Leo Rathfelder and lives in Latvia. Edeltraud is a more distant relative. Here is her tree:

Edeltraud has Ludwig Spatz and Emilie Schmidt as being from Hirschenhof. My mother has a Schmidt in her paternal ancestry, so that may be the connection:

Anna was born in Germany, but married and died in Hirschenhof, Latvia.

Stuck for Now

I’ll have to come back to Eva later. Here is the part of my tree that we might both descend from:

It seems like there should be more children born to Johnn Georg Rathfelder above. I only show one son, Johannes. The common Rathfelder ancestor that Eva and I have should be Johann Heinrich, Johannes or Joahnn Georg. I’ve narrowed it down to three generations!

Summary and Conclusions

  • It would seem almost certain that I share a Latvian Rathfelder ancestor with Eva. However, figuring out the genealogy for that ancestor is difficult.
  • My guess is that Eva’s grandfather Henrihs Ratfelders could have been born in the German Colony of Hirschenhof, Latvia. However, the website with those records is not working right now.
  • My ancestor Johann Heinrich is also listed as Heinrihs in the all Latvia online database.
  • Eva’s Henrihs may be the son of my great-grandfather Johann Heinrich Rathfelder, but I don’t have a record of that birth. Alternately, the Heinrich name may be a coincidence or be named after a third Heinrich that I don’t know about.
  • If Eva and I share the ancestor of Johann Heinrich, that would make us 2nd cousins. However, the DNA match levels suggest that we are 3rd or 4th cousins. That would push our common ancestry one or two generations before Johann Heinrich Rathfelder born 1846.
  • I’ll have to wait for more clues before I can figure out the puzzle of how Eva and my Rathfelder ancestry fit together. The answer is out there waiting to be discovered.

 

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The Gedmatch DNA Results of Donna: My Mom’s First Cousin Twice Removed

I previously wrote a Blog about Donna here. Here is how AncestryDNA shows that Donna is related to me:

The problem with AncestryDNA is that they don’t show the specifics of how we are related by DNA. But Gedmatch.com does show:

Donna and I have a better than usual match. We are 2nd cousins once removed, but we share as much DNA as 2nd cousins. We share 220.5 cM of DNA:

233 is about average for second cousins. However, I am within the reported range for 2nd Cousin once removed.

Donna and DNA Painter

DNA Painter is a utility that maps DNA matches. Here is my current maternal side:

Our common ancestors are JH Rathfelder and M.E.L Gangnus in orange:

The orange and grey segments represent my other second cousins. Iain is in grey and is a brother or cousin to Donna. I’ll add Donna to DNA Painter:

Donna adds new information on Chromosomes 10, 12, 14 and 16. That brings up my Maternal side DNA from 32% painted to 34% painted.

Painting My Mom

Painting my mom should make a bigger difference. That is because Iain tested at 23andMe. I have tested there, but not my mom, so she doesn’t show Iain’s results.

My mom has only 24% painted overall:

Rathfelder/Gangnus shows as medium blue for my mom.

Here is my mom’s paternal DNA:

I plan to add quite a bit to the blue by adding in Donna’s DNA matches to my mom. Here is how Donna matches my mom at Gedmatch:

I’ll add Donna to my mother’s paternal grandparents’ DNA in grey below:

That brings my mom from 19% painted to 27% painted on her paternal side:

Overall, that brings my mom from 24% painted to 28% painted.

Previously, my mom had no DNA mapped on Chromosome 21. Now she has each of her chromosomes at least partially mapped.

Donna’s Other Cousins with Latvian Ancestry

All of these people are listed at Gedmatch except for Iain. He tested at 23andMe. Also I don’t see Ingrid at Gedmatch. Inese and Anita were at Gedmatch but they must not have opted back in yet.

Here is a matrix of all the matches:

This shows that everyone matches everyone else. The only exception is Jon and Astrid. However, as Jon’s five siblings match Astrid, that is not a big deal.

Here is a summary chart for Donna:

I would be curious to see how Donna matches with Inese and Anita from Latvia. Donna matches lower than average with Catherine but more than average with her other matches on average. Donna’s match with my cousin Cindy even seems to break a record:

I don’t know if this chart has been updated since 2017, but the highest reported amount of shared DNA for a second cousin once removed was 316 cM. Cindy and Donna share 329.5 cM.

Here is a tool from DNA Painter:

According to this tool second cousin once removed is possible 6.30% of the time but falls outside the 99th percentile of recorded values. Confusing.

Ancestry give Cindy and Donna’s relationship a 1% chance of happening:

Otis: Shared Match with Donna and Cindy

When I look at shared matches with Donna and Cindy, I see Otis.

His tree is a bit complicated due to some intermarriage. Donna should be in this tree also. Her grandfather was born in 1919, so between Herman and Vera. Also I need to paint Otis into my mother’s DNA Painter Map.

Otis brings my mother up to 31% painted on her paternal side:

My mom and Otis share a good amount of DNA:

I assigned the DNA to the closer Schwechheimer ancestor, but the more distant one is possible also.

Here is how Donna and Otis match:

Something to Consider: DNA Vs. Genealogy

The DNA cannot prove that my mother’s Uncle Leo Rathfelder was the father of Donna’s grandfather Leo Rathfulder Barlow. However, the name of Donna’s grandfather in conjunction with the DNA evidence makes a compelling case. From the DNA even my grandfather Alexander Rathfelder could have been the father of Leo Rathfulder Barlow. In that scenario, Leo Rathfulder Barlow would be my mother’s 1/2 brother and Donna would be my mother’s 1/2 great niece. The average DNA match for a 1/2 great niece is 432:

Compare this to my mom’s match with Donna at 463.4 cM. That would then make me a 1/2 first cousin once removed to Donna:

Oddly, this scenario makes sense given the level of DNA matches.  The average DNA matches of myself, siblings and first cousins were 212.8 cM. In addition, I have a photo of my grandfather Alexander that shows he was in London. I dated it as being around 1915, but I’m not sure what I based that on – probably his arrival in New York City in January 1916..

 

The objections to this scenario are:

  • If Leo Barlow was the son of Alexander , why would he have been named for Alexander’s brother Leo?
  • As Alexander jumped ship in New York City on January 15, 1916, I would think that it would have been unlikely that he would have gone to sea again. According to his naturalization papers, Alexander was called a “deserting seaman”.
  • I have postcards addressed to Alexander in New York City dated 1916 and 1917. Alexander was in New York City in the 1920 Census.
  • According to my Rathfelder Website, I have an undated postcard from Leo to my grandfather. That postcard was sent from England and gave Leo’s address as Glasgow.
  • I have no evidence that my grandfather Alexander was in England in 1918 or that Miss Barlow was in New York at that time.

Summary and Conclusions

  • DNA results suggest that my grandfather could have been the father of Leo Rathfulder Barlow. However, circumstantial evidence suggests that Alexander’s brother Leonhard Florentine Rathelder was the father.
  • Either way, Donna descends from the Rathfelder family with roots in Hirschenhof and Riga, Latvia.
  • It is always great to find a new cousin. It seems we are spread out a bit, though, between the US, England and Latvia.
  • Next I will look at another Latvian DNA match that I have at MyHeritage.
  • I could have used DNA triangulation to show more proof of how Donna is related to her Latvian relatives. However, that would have been a lot of work, and it is already clear that she is fairly closely related.

 

 

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My Butler Brother-In-Law’s New BigY 700 Results Are In

I had been looking for my brother-in-law’s new BigY 700 results. Finally I got a note from a more distant relative Peter in England that Ken’s results were in. Here is the image that Peter shared from his perspective:

The first Richard on the list above is my father-in-law. I manage his results. The second Richard is a more distant relative in a different haplogroup (I-Y128591). I’m not sure why Ken is listed third on Peter’s match list. Peter and Ken have the most Shared Variants. It looks like the list is sorted by Non-Matching Variants. Peter and Ken have more of these because Peter, and the two Richard’s took the BigY 500 test. Ken’s BigY 700 tested for 50 percent more variants than the older BigY 500 test..

Peter’s Non-Matching Variants

From looking at Peter’s list of Non-Matching Variants, I think that I can learn a few things. Non-Matching Variants are a little confusing because they could not only be a variant that Peter has and Ken does not. It could also be a variant that Ken has and that Peter does not have.

15906031 and 13619832

I note that the variants at position numbers 15906031 and 13619832 are common to all three of Peter’s matches. That likely means that Peter has these variants and the other three do not. That means that if Peter has a close relative with the same last name tested, that relative should also have 15906031 and/or 13619832 and that probably one of these two would be Peter’s terminal haplogroup.

20968182

Both Richard and Ken have 20968182. This is likely the position for the variant that will become Richard and Ken’s terminal haplogroup. I can look up this position at YBrowse:

Here is what the position looks like:

My further guess is that Richard and Ken will have the terminal haplogroup of Y129564:

This haplogroup was ‘discovered’ by YFull in 2018. That was when I tested my father-in-law Richard and uploaded the results to YFull. Here are Richard’s results at YFull:

Richard had no Novel SNP’s in the Best quality category. But he did have one in the Acceptable category which is Y129564.

What’s Next?

FTDNA will do a manual review on the results. It could take a while for them to get to the Butler results. However, I don’t see any possible outcome than the one I outlined above. Ken’s father Richard previously had one private variant. Ken matched this variant, which has the position number 20968182. It also has the name Y129564. This should be the new branch for what I would call the American Butlers. That means that Peter should remain in the now older branch of I-Y128364:

I-Y128364 should represent the now older Kilkenny/Wexford Branch of Butlers.

 

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Waiting for My Hartley Big Y 700 Manual Review: Part 2

My Big Y 700 upgrade results came in on January 16, 2020. I had upgraded because another Hartley had tested for a new Big Y 700. Steve’s results came in on January 21, 2020. I wrote Part 1 while awaiting my Big Y manual review here. My thinking was that if Steve and I both had the Big Y 700 test done, then our results would be more consistent. I now see that I would have been better off testing my brother for Big Y.

Big Y and the Rule of Three

Bill Wood from the FTDNA BigY Facebook group developed what he calls the Big Y Rule of Three. Here is the short version of the Rule of Three:

The first candidate was me. So I’m all set there. These slides are from Bill Wood:

 

 

This is where I should have had my brother tested. The importance of this test is that my brother should match me on all or nearly all of my SNPs. These matches will then result in a terminal haplogroup for my branch of Hartley. So my next step will be to have my brother tested. Here is what I understand to be current pricing for Big Y:

Big Y is $449. I must have paid about $189 for my upgrade.

 

Here I have a lot of 2nd cousins, so that could have worked. One other person, Michael had already taken the Big Y (now called 500) test. Now we have Steve also. Steve and Michael are both greater than 4th cousin to me, but I don’t know exactly how we connect genealogically.

Alex Williamson and the Big Tree

I mentioned the Big Tree in my previous Blog on Hartley YDNA. On January 13, 2020, an administrator for the R L513 and Subclades FTDNA group wrote a message requesting that Big Y 700 results be posted to the Big Tree:

I posted my new results and they showed up at the Big Tree under my Unique Mutations. My new results are under the heading of BigY3:

My understanding is that the entries with a plus sign are the important ones:

That means that the SNPs numbered 26539382, 13658297 and 4317527 are newly detected for me by the Big Y 700 test. 13658297 is interesting because in the previous test, it was rejected.

** indicates “REJECTED” with just a single variant

Also 13658297 is important as it is listed as being in the combBED Region.  My understanding is that the combBED Region is a highly reliable region for SNP detection. This is indicated by a Y in the second column of Y’s.

Of the above three unique mutations, two show up in my FTDNA Big Y list of Private Variants:

What About 13658297?

I used to show 13658297 as a private variant, but it is no longer on the list:

That could mean that it is no longer a private variant, because Steve also has that variant. I suppose that means that FTDNA is working on its manual review. I previously had 10 private variants. Now I have 6.

Where Does That Leave Me and the Hartley YDNA Tree?

This is the chart that I came up with previously:

I had highlighted in gold those matches that I had with Steve. There are 6 variants that are not highlighted which is what I now show as having for Private Variants now at FTDNA. I don’t see any matches between Steve and Michael. I take that to mean that Steve and I will be named on a newer Hartley Branch and that Michael will remain on the older branch of A11132. We will have to wait to see what the new branch is named.

Summary and Conclusion

  • FTDNA’s manual review of Steve and my Big Y 700 results seems to be moving along
  • The upload of some of my Big Y 700 results to the Alex Williamson Big Tree web site was helpful in my understanding what some of the results meant.
  • I will be seriously considering getting Big Y 700 results for my brother when a new sale comes along. These results will get me a terminal haplogroup for my very specific branch of Hartley’s.
  • My prediction is that Michael will retain the A11132 designation and Steve and I will have a new downstream haplogroup. It will be interesting to see how many SNPs make up this new haplogroup.
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Finding My DNA Cousin Brenda at 23andMe

In my previous Blog, I figured out who my 23andMe cousin Kat was. I have another DNA cousin at 23andMe Brenda. I’d like to figure out where she fits in. 23andMe thinks that Brenda could be my third cousin:

Brenda and I share some DNA on 4 different chromosomes.

Here is another hint:

Brenda and I also have DNA matches with Kat and Stephen. The match with Kat is more important, because if it is right, then Brenda is a 2nd cousin to Kat. Here is a DNA matching Frazer tree that I have:

If I am a third cousin to Brenda and she is on the Frazer tree, then our common ancestors would be George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. If Brenda is a second cousin to Kat, then Kat and Brenda’s common ancestors should be William Frazer and Amanda Skoog. There are other possibilities, but that seems the most likely.

A Look at Stephen

Actually Stephen’s match is interesting also:

Stephen is on the lower left. If I’m right, Brenda is in the Frazer section in the middle. Steve and Brenda would be 5th cousins on the McMaster side. I am a closer match to Stephen on our Clarke side.

Painting Brenda

Using DNA Painter, an online utility, I can put Brenda’s matches next to my other matches. Here are some of Brenda’s details:

Here are a few possible surprises. I painted Brenda to George Frazer and Margaret McMaster based on Brenda’s match to Kat and me. However, DNA Painter has hints that Brenda is related further out at the level of James Frazer, Violet Frazer and Richard Frazer.

When I choose “show overlapping segments”, I get this:

When I look at my larger DNA map, I see this:

My cousin Paul and Brenda have a small overlap, but not enough to be picked up by DNA Painter as being significant.

Pro’s and Con’s of Putting Brenda on My DNA Tree Where I Did

I put Brenda as having the common ancestors with me of George Frazer and Margaret McMaster.

Pro’s:

  • At third cousin to me and 2nd cousin to Kat, it seems like Brenda should be a great-granddaughter of William Frazer.
  • William Frazer had three sons. Kat descends from James Robert Frazer. That means that Brenda could descend from Albert William Frazer or Walter Stanley Frazer. I don’t know much about Walter Stanley, so that is a possibility.

Con’s

  • I would expect Brenda to have more overlap with other descendants of George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Instead Brenda overlaps with more distant Frazer relatives.
  • With Margaret’s double McMaster parentage, I would have expected more matches with McMaster descendants – though she does match Stephen.

Walter Stanley Frazer 1924-1996

On October 10, 1937, Walter was 13 and sailing out of Galway – apparently on his own:

This stone at the National Cemetery in Culpepper, Virginia gives a very short summary of Walter’s life:

The affidavits for Walter’s Petition for US Naturalization were taken in London in 1944:

Here is some more personal information from the same document when Walter was 20:

Here is some information on Walter’s wife:

Julia was flying from Paris to New Jersey with her husband and three young children in 1959. They lived in Miami. If Brenda was part of this family, perhaps she was too young to take this trip.

I did find one of the daughters. I think that this is her school photo from Vienna Virginia, but I’m not sure. The other information would be right.

Findagrave.com mentions her two brothers but not a sister. So this may not be the family for Brenda.

One Other Possibility for Brenda

I have that my great-grandfather’s brother Hubert Alexander Frazer had a son named Calvin Coolidge Frazer and Calvin had a daughter named Brenda. I will try to get in touch with at least the most likely candidate I find on Facebook. The problem with this possibility is that Brenda should be a first cousin once removed to my second cousin once removed Paul. Brenda only shows a small overlap with Paul. That may be because I show a smaller than average match with my cousin Paul.

At some point Calvin Coolidge Frazer ended up living and dying in Sacramento. That is interesting as some Frazer’s from other branches ended up in that city also.

Summary and Conclusion

  • After figuring out one of my Frazer DNA matches at 23andMe (Kat), I tried to set out to figure out how I matched Brenda. Based on how Brenda matched Kat and me I guessed that Brenda might descend from a Great Uncle of Kat. There was one person who fit that category: Walter Stanley Frazer. I looked up some information on Walter, but I couldn’t find any record of Walter having a daughter named Brenda.
  • I painted Brenda’s match to me with DNA Painter and found that she did match me on my Frazer side. However, I was expecting some more matching on the McMaster side.
  • I looked into a Brenda Frazer who was the granddaughter of Hubert Alexander Frazer. She is a good  candidate as she has the right first name. I’ll give a shot a contacting her through Facebook. I’m pretty sure given the level of match Kat and I have with Brenda, that our common ancestors were George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. However, I am still interested in confirming that belief.
  • I thought this exercise would be easier than it was. Due to the randomness of DNA inheritance, matches do not always match up with each other at the same place.
  • Even if I don’t figure out who Brenda is, I have found out some more information about two branches of the Frazer Family.

Addendum

I did hear back from Brenda through 23andMe. She said I was right in my guess:

Brenda and I are at opposite ends of the tree. Brenda is also a first cousin to Paul. I had Paul’s DNA tested at FTDNA and uploaded his results to Gedmatch.com for analysis. Brenda got my painted chromosome up from 41% overall to 42%:

I changed my matches with Brenda to gold colored for those matches where DNA Painter showed we had an overlap with another Frazer match.