Author: joel@jmhartley.com

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Another Frazer Heard from

I guess that is an awkward title. I heard recently from a Frazer with Irish roots who is certainly related to a large group of Frazers that I have been looking at. He sent me an interesting tree which his family had worked on.

A Frazer Tree

Here is the tree that I got from John:

I blurred out some information at the bottom left. John is the last John bottom left. John was a bit confused as to how the tree fit together. I told him that the right of side of his chart should go up to James brother of Archibald. John has his line coming from the John Frazer Line at the top of the chart. I think that he should be coming from the Archibald Line. I have that Archibald married Ann Stinson and John has a 2nd great grandfather Alexander Stenson Frazer.

I sent John a copy of my Frazer Genealogy/DNA tree. That tree has Frazers who have had their DNA tested.

John thought that he might fit in on the left hand side of my chart, but I think that he should be in the Stinson section. That would be the bright green line.

Here is where John fits in on my Frazer Web Page:

John’s ancestor is Edward Lillie born 1854 at the bottom of the image above.

More on John’s Tree

Here is Edward Lillie in 1891:

He is now in North Leeds married to Adelaide Cooper. Edgar H. Frazer is in this Census. He is next in line in John’s genealogy. Here is how I make the connection:

The good news is that John has sent me photos. These always liven up a dry Blog on genealogy. Here is Edgar Hamilton:

 

John says this is :

Edgar Hamilton Frazer leaving Buckingham Palace with his wife Margaret Frazer (née Dale) dated 1932 having been awarded an OBE

I have that Edgar was born about 1885, so that would make im about 47 in the photo.  Here is Edgar’s wedding record from 1912:

The woman in the photo above must be Margaret Dale.

Edgar’s Father Edward Lillie Frazer

 

He was the younger brother of Frazer researcher’s Doug’s ancestor Archibald of Shanvoley:

Looking at these photos, I would have a hard time saying that these two were not brothers. As older brother, Archibald would have stayed on the ancestral lands in Ireland and the younger brother Edward sought his fortune in England. Here is Shanvoley in North Roscommon where Archibald and Edward were born:

My ancestors would have known them as they lived in Derrycaster to the Northeast of Shanvoley. This map shows the boundaries between the two Townlands:

 

I believe that my ancestor James Frazer lived on parcel 12 and leased other lands nearby.

Here is how some of these Frazer lines fit together:

I am a 6th cousin to Doug. John is one generation up so we are 5th cousins once removed. However, John’s ancestor Alexander Stinson Frazer and my ancestor James Frazer were first cousins.

Frazer DNA

The above chart is based on Frazer descendants who have taken an autosomal DNA test. Five Frazer men have also taken the BigY DNA test. This test is a male only test and test the DNA that was passed only from father to son. That makes it a good test for a surname studay such as Frazer. Here is how the Frazer YDNA tree looks like so far:

There are currently about 59,000 branches of the male line identified and Frazer have three of those 59,000 branches. These branches form better in pairs. The general Frazer haplogroup is FT421618. I had a cousin Paul test and R-Y85652 defines the James Line of the Archibald side of the tree. Rodney and Jonathan tested on the James Line side and found out that at least the Thomas Henry Branch of the Frazer Line was named R-Y151390. If John were to test or someone else on the Archibald side, they may end up naming another Frazer Branch. This testing is important as it can clarify confusing genealogy at times. For example, I don’t have proof that my James Frazer ancestor had Philip as a father. In the Dingman side, we couldn’t be sure if Archibald’s father was John or Richard Frazer.

Alexander Stinson/Stenson Frazer

Here is the third photo that John sent me:

This is Alexander Stinson Frazer born in 1806. My understanding is that Alexander Stinson Frazer made his way to England before his death. I believe that this is Alexander’s burial record:

Here is the Census for Edgbaston in 1881:

Here we see Mary who was Alexander’s wife and some of her family – mostly born in Ireland. It is likely that one of Alexander’s children in England had his painting done.

This Alexander is important as he would be a brother or first cousin to many other Frazers who have many more descendants today. In my family he was first cousin to my ancestors James Frazer and Violet Frazer.

The John Frazer Will

One Frazer researcher has posted a most interesting will at Ancestry. I will copy it below:

The transcript which follows is one of those documents most beloved by family historians. In it John Frazer, younger brother of Archibald Frazer one of my GG Grandfathers, gives details of most of his family and his extended family. Read on.

This is the last will and testament of me John Frazer of Stockfield Hall Tyseley in the parish of Yardley County of Worcester Manufacturer I direct payment of all my just debts funeral and testamentary expences as soon as convient after my desease I appoint James Frazer of Stackfield hall aforesaid William Frazer of Westley Brook Warwick Road Acocks Green in the County of Worcester manufacturer and Edward Lilly Frazer of 16 Spencer Place Roundhay Road Leeds (hereinfter called my trustees) to be the Executors and Trustees of this my will. I give to John Wesley Johnstone of Hay Mills in the parish of Yardley aforesaid a clerk in the employ of Frazer Bros Hay Mills aforesaid if he shall be in their empoly at the time of my decease the sum of twenty five pounds and I direct my trustees in case the said John Wesley Johnstone is not in the employ of the said Frazer Bros at the time of my decease to pay or withold the said legacy as they may think fit. I give all that residence known as Stockfield Hall in which I now reside to my brother James Frazer together with my share in the furnishing of same and my private and personal bellongins. I devise and bequeath all my real and personal Estate not otherwise disposed of unto my trustees upon trust that my trustees shall sell (or value) call in and convert unto money the same or such part thereof as shall not consist of money and shall invest the same in the business of Frazer Bros or such other investment as my trustees shall think desirable upon the following trusts viz 1. As to six hundred pounds in trust to pay same to Maria Anne Donohoe of Buffalo New York in the United States of America Daughter of my sister Eliza. 2. As to six hundred pounds in trust to pay same to Samuel Dowlex of Canada son of my sister Eliza. 3. As to six hundred pounds in trust to pay same to Mary Martha Hassard of Toronto Canada daughter of my sister Anne. 4. As to six hundred pounds in trust to pay same to Florence Hassard Toronto Canada daughter of my sister Anne by installments of Two hundred pounds each but without interest at the expiration of five ten and fifteen years after the date of my decease. My trustees shall set aside yearly such part of the income as would be equal to interest at 2 1/2 per cent per annum upon the whole ammount invested In trust to pay divide and distribute yearly out of such income 1. the sum of £10 per annum to my sister Mary Ward of Worcester during her life 2. £15 per annum for the first five years after my decease to Maria Annie Donohoe aforesaid, £10 per annum for a further period of five years and £5 per annum for a further period of five years 3. £15 per annum for five years to Samuel Dowlex aforesaid £10 per annum for a further period of five years and £5 per annum for a third period of five years 4. £15 per annum for five years to Mary Martha Hassard aforesaid £10 per annum for a further period five years and £5 per annum for a further period of five years 5.£15 per annum for five years to Florence Hassard aforsaid £10 per annum for a further period of five years and £5 per annum for a third period of five years 6. £10 per annum for five years to the Trustees of the British and Foreign Bible Society, 146 Queen Victoria Street london. 7. £10 per annum for five years to the Church of England Missionary Society, Salisbury Square, Fleet Street London. 8. £10 per annum for five years to the Church Association of 14 Buckingham Street, Strand, London. And I give my trustees the power with reference to the shares of income and principal heretofore given to Maria Annie Donohoe and Samuel Dowlex to withhold the share of income and principal payable to Maria Annie Donohoe and to pay the same to Samuel Dowlex or vice versa at the discrection of any two of my said Trustees if circumstances seem to them to call for such a course to be adopted and as to the remainder of the interest at 2 1/2 per cent per annum to pay devide and distribute same every year between and amonst the following persons in equal shares 1. John William Frazer of hay Mills aforesaid son of my Brother Archibald 2. Edgar Hamilton Frazer of Leeds son of my brother Edward. 3. Alexander Stenson Frazer of Leeds son of my brother Edward. 4. Douglas Villiers  Frazer of Leeds, son of my brother Edward. 5. Hector Mc Kenzie  Frazer of leeds, son of my brother Edward. 6. Vera Adeliade Lilian  Frazer of leeds Daughter of my brother Edward. And upon the death of any person entitled under this my will to a share of income as aforesaid leaving issue such issue shall be entitled to their deceased parents share of income. And in case their is no issue the share of such deceased person shall be divided equally amonst the remaining persons participating in the division of income as aforesaid. And I direct & empower my trustees (should they so desire) notwithstanding anything hereinbefore contained limiting the interests of any person participating under this my will to income only to pay to any one or all of the said participants any sum or sums from the said principal money invested as aforesaid and from the date of such payments to reduce the payment of income proportionately and as to the remainder of income in excess of the 2 1/2% per annum arising out of the principal moneys invested as aforesaid upon trust to pay the same to James Frazer, William Frazer, Edward Lily Frazer and John William Frazer in proportion to the amount of capital which each of them shall then have invested in the said business of Frazer Bros. And should any member of the firm of Frazer Bros (or after his death his Executors or trustees) withdraw in any one year from the business of the said firm any part of his capitol (besides his profits) in excess of 5% of the amount standing to his credit in the books of the said firm I direct my trustees at their discretion to withdraw from the amount invested by them as aforesaid with the said Frazer Bros an equal sum or at the discretion the whole amount they have invested with the said firm. In trust to reinvest the same and apply the income as aforesaid or in their discretion to distribute the principal money in discharge of their trust and I expressly declare that any member of Frazer Bros who may withdraw such amount as aforesaid without the consent of a majority of the other partners of the firm they and their descendants shall be excluded from any benifit whatever under this my will and I further declare that in case any person interested under this my will shall take precedings to set aside this will or shall commence any action against the trustees (except to recover any ammount due to him under the terms of this my will) or shall instruct any procedings whatever for the purpose of having the intention and construction of this will defined by a court of law they and their descendants shall be excluded from any benifit whatever hereunto in witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand to this my will contained in this and the two proceeding sheets of paper this 13th day of November One thousand nine hundred and two.

Signed by the said John Frazer the testator as and for his last will and testament in the presence of us both being present at the same time who at his request in his presence and in the presence of each other have hereunto set and subscribed our names as witnesses. John Frazer
Arthur G Tanfield Solicitor, Birmingham
Frank Albert his clerk
On the twenty first day of october 1904 probate of this will was granted at Worcester to James Frazer,  William Hamilton Frazer and Edward Lilly Frazer the executors

This document is important for the relationships which it sets out. I will try to sort out the relationships:

  • The will is of John Frazer who is the son of Archibald Stinson Frazer.
  • After looking up trees including John Frazer at Ancestry, the three trees I found have him dying in Ontario which seems odd as he is here from “Stockfield Hall Tyseley in the parish of Yardley County of Worcester”
  •  James Frazer is listed as John’s brother
  • John has another brother named Archibald who has a son John William Frazer
  • John has a brother Edward who has a son named Edgar Hamliton Frazer. That Edward must be Edward Lillie. Their two photos are earlier in the Blog.
  • Other children of brother Edward listed are: Alexander Stenson Frazer, Douglas Villiers Frazer, Hector McKenzie Frazer, and Vera Adelaide Lilian Frazer
  • John had a sister named Eliza
  • Eliza has daughter Maria Annie Donohoe of Buffalo, NY and son Samuel Dowlex of Canada
  • John had a sister named Anne
  • Had had two sisters named Mary Martha Hassard and Florence Hassard
  • John had a brother named Archibald. This must be the Archibald of Shanvoley, Ireland
  • Archibald has a son named John William Frazer

I’ll go over some of these names in more detail. I’m curious to see how all lthese people fit together.

John Frazer

This record has his death in Ontario:

The year of death makes sense based on the will above, but I question that he died in Ontario. Here is a directory from 1883 in Birmingham:

James Frazer

John’s brother James ends up getting his house. This James is listed in the 1881 Census above. He was 34 then, so born around 1847.

Fellow Frazer researcher Joanna has this photo of Stockfield Hall:

This is the house James inherited from his brother John Frazer. Her note says:

photo taken in 1941 when it was used as a boarding house. Now demolished.

Archibald and Son John William Frazer

Archibald is Archibald of Shanvoley (photo above given from Doug’s web site). Ancestry gives me this hint for John William:

Someone else posted this photo of John William with credit to Frazer researcher Doug:

Edward Lillie and Children

Here is Edward and family in 1891:

These are the first three children listed in the will out of five. This is the general area the family was living:

Here is the family in the same place in 1901:

This shows the five children of Edward L. Frazer. It appears that two sisters are living next door: Ann Robinson and Mary Robinson, but this may not be reported correctly.

Eliza and Children in North America

I have this record for Eliza (or Elizabeth:

I thought that Dowlex was a funny name. It should be Dowler. Here is the marriage record for Eliza’s daughter:

Hassard Daughters of Sister Anne

I have come across the Hassard name before, so I find this interesting. This appears to be Anne’s marriage information:

Here is the family in 1891:

The children are Minnie, Albert and Florence. Is Minnie a nickname for Mary? I don’t see Albert listed in the will above. Here is the 1881 Census:

Here is the transcription:

Sister Mary Ward

It is easy to miss people in a will and I initially misssed Mary Ward. First, I do not show on my tree that John Frazer had a sister named Mary:

This may be Mary in Worcester in 1901:

I found one tree with a Minnie Emma Frazer married to Berrow Ward:

I guess I didn’t know that Minnie was a nickname for Mary.

I don’t know if Jane was the first daughter. She may have been named for Mary Hamiltons mother. Then Ann would have been named for Alexander’s mother Ann Stinson. Next Minnie or Mary was probably named for her mother.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was glad John Frazer got in touch with me
  • His family tree was a little off. He had Alexander Stinson in the John Frazer Branch. His Alexander should be moved up to the Alexander in the Archibald/Stinson Branch
  • His photo of his painting of Alexander Stinson Frazer is likely one of the earliest representations of one of the Frazers from North Roscommon
  • The transcription of a will of a John Frazer (brother of John’s great-grandfather) shed some light on family relationships in this branch of Frazers
  • I was able to update my Ancestry Tree on this branch of Frazers
  • John is interested in taking a DNA test which will further solidify this branch of Frazers
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New Discoveries for the McMasters of Ireland and Canada

I was pleasantly surprised to get back in touch with a McMaster descendant recently named Jean. Jean had asked for help in trying to figure out how Effie McMaster fit into the family tree. Jean is an avid genealogist and a pleasure to work with. At that time, I had come up with this possible tree for how I may be related to Jean:

Here, Effie is on the pinkish line. It appears that Effie could have been the daughter of Isabel McMaster and that she was raised at least for some time by Isabel’s married sister Susan McMaster Beckett. I wrote two blogs on Effie in September 2019. Here is the link to the second blog.

Susan McMaster Beckett

I don’t currently have Susan McMaster in my tree, but need to add her. This is what I have:

I am also missing Isabel McMaster born about 1827. A document that Jean sent me makes it clear that Susan McMaster was a daughter of Margaret McMaster:

I’ll quote Jean on the document:

After sifting through the family letters and photos I found several clues. In an old, small and deteriorated New Testament, I found a dedication to Susana McMaster from her mother Margaret McMaster, dated 7 April 1850, Ancaster (Ontario, Canada). There are two other signatures: James McMaster and Fanny McMaster. The bible was apparently passed onto Effie’s daughter, Grace Swayze, and then to my mother Etta Velma Swayze.

Here is an isolation of the left part of the flyleaf of the New Testament:

A Margaret McMaster is presenting a New Testament to her daughter Susan or Susanna McMaster.

Here is the second page:

My first reaction that this was the James McMaster who was the husband of Fanny (my ancestor). However, Jean thought that this could be the James, son of Margaret McMaster. I’m not sure which makes more sense. Jean also says:

The Methodist ticket is interesting as it was given at the weekly meetings to participants.

I found Fanny’s signature in a subsequent email from Jean:

This leads me to my original thinking that these two signatures could have been Fanny McMaster and her husband James Mcmaster born in 1806. Either way, I am happy to be able to see a signature of my 3rd great-grandmother. There is no way to know exactly what happened with this New Testament. We just know that it was passed down to Jean through her ancestor Effie McMaster.

Susan McMaster’s Marriage Document

I just discovered also that Jean had sent me Susan Mcmaster’s Marriage Document. It appeared as an attachment at the bottom of her email:

This document appears to be in good shape considering the age with minimal yellowing. This continues in the Wesleyan theme. According to Jean:

  • The dedication to Susan McMaster and the marriage license are interesting. The family came to Canada in about 1850, I think it may have been earlier. She is about 18. Margaret gave birth to Susan in her early 40’s, four years after the birth of Frances. The older daughters probably cared for Susan, Frances and younger children. 
  • Susan arrives in Canada, meets John Beckett, who was from a good Methodist/Quaker family who were millers and lumbermen. He is 15 years older than her, they fall in love, but there is no preacher to formally marry them. In the Quaker tradition you stood before the meeting and announced your wishes to marry, say vows to each other and you are married. Quakers do not have formal ordained leaders. This is where the date 7 Sept 1850 may come in. If they announced their intent to marry Margaret may have given the bible as a gift. It would have been appropriate for Susan to hold it during the ceremony. It may or may not be recorded in Quaker meeting notes because I’ve looked. But, in Canada at this time, their marriage would not have been recognized.
  • If Susan’s family were Methodists, to formalize the marriage they would have to wait for the Methodist preacher, who rode a circuit through towns and villages and may only appear several times a year. In the Methodist traditions of that period, only an ordained preacher could marry, bury, baptize and serve communion. 
  • The clues are in Susan and John’s marriage license. “Said marriage is legalized; by special license and solemnized in the presence of Mr. J. Hamilton and Mr. H. Bennett.” The operative words here are “legalize and solemnize”, both secular and religious are needed to recognize the marriage. Their formal marriage date is then: December 28, 1850. This may, or may not, explain how the bible came into Susan McMaster’s possession.

This document is a genealogist’s dream. How many times is it that I document like this is missing?

Here I have added Susan and Isabella to my Ancestry Tree:

More Photos from Cousin Jean

Here is one from Uncle William Mcmaster:

He looks like a friendly man with light colored eyes. Jean writes:

This is signed on the back, “From Uncle William McMaster to James and Effie”. No date. It was taken in California. I have no idea who this “Uncle William McMaster” is or how he is related. Another mystery. 

My other observation, or question, is whether the beard may have indicated that he was part of the Friends or Quaker religion. Here is a long-shot guess as to who he is:

This was from a tree I found at Ancestry, but I’m not sure how accurate it is.

More recently, Jean sent me this photo from another Uncle William:

Both these men were from California and both had white beards. Perhaps both were Quakers? Cousin Jean included the inscription on the back of this photo:

From the inscription, I take it that this man kind and religious. My geography of California is not the greatest, so here is Santa Ana and Los Angeles:

A Photo of Elizabeth Shannon and Effie McMaster

Until not too many years ago, I didn’t know of this Canadian Mcmaster family. I knew I had a third great-grandmother named Fanny McMaster, but I hadn’t realized that the rest of her family had traveled to Canada. Here is a photo that Jean sent me:

Jean says:

I found a tintype of Effie and another woman who I immediately recognized as Mary Ann McMaster Shannon’s daughter, Elizabeth. (Attached) Which led me to search for the Mary Ann Shannon connection. Quite by accident I found Isabella McMaster’s grave. She is buried with Willie J. Shannon, Mary Ann’s son. (Photo attached) They died several months apart. Thomas, Mary Ann, Elizabeth, and Willie Shannon, Isabella and Jane McMaster are all buried in the same cemetery. 

From a portion of my McMaster DNA/genealogy Tree:

That would mean that these two would be first cousins born abour 3 years apart with Effie on the right being slightly older. I’m not sure of the significance of what they are wearing on their left hands.

A Photo of Girls

This picture could possibly use some touching up:

Jean writes:

The last photo is a tintype that was in the Susan McMaster Beckett memorabilia. It’s early but no date or info. The 4 girls look about the same age. I wonder if the girl second from the right is Effie because of her facial structure but, otherwise, I have no clues about these children.

If I had to guess, I would say these are all cousins. Margaret Frazer McMaster had enough granddaughters to fill up this photo. I have Effie born in 1861. I’ll say that Effie is about 7 in the photo. That would place the photo around 1868 or so. Margaret passed away in 1872, so the photo could have been for her. However, I can’t back that up with names and dates. I suppose that another choice could be Beckett cousins, assuming that Effie was raised by Susan McMaster Becket.

A Theory about Effie’s Father

Now this is just a theory, but an interesting one. And it involves a bit of scandal. Jean gives a possibility that George A Mcmaster may have been Effie’s father. I find the theory possible as does Jean. Exhibit A would be the 1861 Census where Isabel and George A. McMaster are living in the Becket household:

This would be a situation where Effie’s father would have been her mother’s nephew, if I have it right. The fact that they were living in the same household at the time gives the opportunity for this scenario.  I hesitate to mention the scenario.

Further, George A McMaster appears to have joined the Civil War in the US based on this record:

Lewiston is to the North of Niagara Falls and just to the East of the Ontario border. The argument could be that George fled the situation of fatherhood in Ontario by joining the Civil War. Unfortunately, George died young of ‘disease’ in Washington, D.C. Of course, this could be just coincidence.

Further McMaster Tragedy

Isabella, who was perhaps Effie’s mother suffered a fall and an injury. Jean writes:

While going through the family material I had run across a letter that was very fragile and difficult to read and had set it aside. After finding Isabella’s grave I revisited it and have attached the transcription. One of the family stories about Effie’s mother is that she had died from a fall from a wagon. This letter, I believe, was written by Mary Ann to her sister Susan describing their sister “Bella’s” fall from a wagon. The letter is heartbreaking in its description of the fall and the “loss of her mind”. It also mentions Lizzie, Willie and Effie. In the US 1880 census for Contra Costa, California, Thomas, Mary Ann, Elizabeth and Willie Shannon (misspelled as Sharmon) and Isabella McMaster are listed in the same household. Isabella is described as “sister-in-law” to Thomas. I strongly believe Isabella and Susan are the daughters of William and Margaret McMaster expanding that tree. 

I’ll include the transcription here as it all adds to the McMaster story:

Summary and Conclusions

  • Jean has done some excellent research concerning McMaster Family History
  • Jean has some great documents concerning that history. Perhaps like many of us, some of that evidence is mysterious while other evidence fairly clear. Other evidence is inbetween.
  • The clear evidence includes a dedication of a Bible from mother Margaret McMaster to daughter Susan. This makes it clear that Susan was Margaret’s daughter.
  • This Bible had a signature from Fanny McMaster. I believe this to be my third great-grandmother in Ireland. The time that the family left can be estimated to be before the inscription of 1850 but after the publication of the Bible in 1845.
  • I found Jean’s theory that George Arthur McMaster was Effie’s father to be interesting and apparently circumstantial evidence would support the theory.
  • The McMaster family hid the details of what really happened. However, they also pulled together and were a strong family that supported each other in difficult times.

 

 

 

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New DNA Match Derek at Ancestry with Possible Ellis Ancestry

I checked recently for unviewed DNA matches at Ancestry with a common ancestor and came up with Derek. He matches me at 15 cM:

Derek has a tree with 49 people, but shows no Ellis ancestry:

However, Derek’s tree shows that his parents were from Sheffield which is where my Ellis ancestors lived. Here is the connection that Ancestry shows:

Derek shows as a 4th cousin once removed to me.

My Shared Matches with Derek

If we have an Ellis shared ancestor, then we should have shared DNA matches with others who descend from the Ellis family. When I check that, there are about 4 people that I know descend from the Ellis family:

Checking Derek’s Genealogy

Derek’s tree does not show a link to the Ellis family. However, I would be interested in checking out Ancestry’s ThruLines:

Derek is the only one showing descending from James Ellis on my ThruLines.

I’ll check out Derek’s genealogy by creating my own tree for him:

This gets me out to about the level that Derek had. Here is William H Pullen in the 1871 Census for Sheffield:

They are living in Nether Hallam and William’s father is listed as a saw grinder. Unfortunately, Ancestry has the surname transcribed as “Gullen’. William’s mother is listed as Emma. She is born about 1839 in Sheffield.

It would be nice to have a marriage record for father William Pullen. Here is a record but it is to a Tattershall:

One Ancestry tree I have shows Emma’s mother as a Tattershall:

That is confusing. Here is another tree:

This tree has the wedding date for Emma and William. I might assume that Emma was previously married. However, this Emma appears to have been a spinster:

Here is where I believe that St Philips Church was based on a current map:

The 1881 Census

The 1881 Census appears to be the key for Emma being an Ellis:

Here we have William Pullings which I take to be the same as Pullen. He is married to Emma. Living with them is father-in-law James Ellis and brother-in-law Harry Ellis.  That should connect Emma to her father James Ellis and Emma to her brother Harry Ellis. That means that this is likely Emma in the 1851 Census:

Here is the 1861 Census showing Emma still single:

The census was taken on 7 April 1861. So, if Emma Ellis is the same as Emma Tattershall, then she could have married later in the year at the end of July.

Conflicting Evidence?

It appears that there is some conflicting evidence. One possibility is that there were two William Pullens. Although, it does not seem that Pullen is a common name, that is possible:

Here are two different people by the name of William Pullen. One is in Sheffield and one is in Ecclesfield. Ecclesfield is 4 miles to the North of Sheffield:

However, for this to work out, I suppose that the two Williams would have had to have married two Emmas. Also possible, but less likely. [Note: Based on conclusions below, the correct William was from Sheffield son of William based on the marriage record between William and Emma Tattershall.]

Are Emma Ellis and Emma Tattershall the Same Person?

Here is a record for the wedding of James Ellis and Caroline Tattershall. Here is an entry from a Sheffield area Newspaper published on 21 May 1842:

This gives a wedding record for James and Caroline. Also we see that James’ wife was a Tattershall. It appears that Emma could have taken on her mother’s maiden name. Here is a timeline for Caroline Tattershall:

If I have things right, this is showing that Emma was born about three years before James Ellis and Caroline Tattershall were married. This brings up the possibility that James Ellis may not have been the father of Emma. That brings up the question of why there would be a DNA match then.

Here is an interesting record:

This baptismal record gives Emma’s full name as Emma Ellis Tattershall. Could this suggest that James Ellis was the father of Emma? I think that this is about all that the records will reveal to me at this time. The rest must be based on speculation. I would guess that connection that Ancestry has would be correct, but it would be nice to see connections through some of the other siblings of Emma. The fact that Emma’s middle name was Ellis in addition to the DNA match suggest that James Ellis was likely her father.

Here is my best guess for the connection between Derek and myself:

Summary and Conclusions

  • Derek and I match by DNA. Ancestry traces that DNA match to possible common ancestors of Charles Ellis and Ann Roebuck
  • Derek and I have shared DNA matches with other Ellis descendants
  • Derek’s genealogy was confusing as his ancestor married an Emma Tattershall not Emma Ellis
  • The record shows that Emma was baptized Emma Ellis Tattershall about three years before her mother Caroline Tattershall and James Ellis married
  • My guess is that James and Caroline had Emma before they were married and married later and had more children. This guess is based on DNA matches and Emma’s middle name of Ellis.
  • I created a tree showing how the two lines got to be about a generation apart over the years.

 

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My Sister Heidi’s Nicholson Match at MyHeritage

I noticed recently that my sister Heidi has a match with Kenneth at MyHeritage. They have a Theory of Relativity that looks like this:

This Theory put Heidi and Kenneth at 4th cousins once removed and the connection goes back to 1765. There are no shared matches between Kenneth and Heidi that I readily recognize. Also Kenneth’s tree is managed by someone else and is private.

Kenneth’s match also is not strong:

Connecting Heidi to Kenneth by Genealogy

I would usually try to connect going from the present to the past rather than the other way round. I see that the manager of Kenneth’s tree is from the UK which is probably a good thing as the Nicholson family was from Sheffield, UK.

I see that this is the Armstrong family in 1901 in Carlisle:

This tends to confirm the Theory at the bottom (more recent) level:

Of course, the Census does not give Mary A’s maiden name. All Ancestry Trees plus a probate record identify Mary Ann as a Lawrence. I’ll just accept the two hints, but the family is still in the Region of Cumberland:

At this point, the road I want to go down is the Hannah Nicholson road, but Ancestry gives me no hints. The 1881 Census has Hannah born in Renwick:

Renwick is quite a hike from Sheffield.

Here is a marriage record from Ancestry:

Here are Hannah and her parents in 1841:

The ‘y’ in the last column indicates that everyone was born in the same county – which would be Cumbria. The connection to Sheffield is not looking good.

Pulling the Plug

At this point, the connection does not seem feasible. The John Nicholson in my tree was married to Martha Jow:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I had hopes that a Theory of Relativity at MyHeritage would lead to an actual connection between my sister Heidi and Kenneth
  • I checked out Kenneth’s tree and his Nicholson ancestors were in Cumbria to the North of England while mine (and Heidi’s) were in Sheffield England
  • MyHeritage did have the confidence as low, and the DNA match was small
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My Sister Sharon’s AncestryDNA Match with a McMaster Descendant

Let’s get right to it. Sharon’s match:

I’ll call the match Gibbs. Here is the maternal side of his tree:

No Need for Me to Build a Tree for Gibbs

Very often I will build out a tree for a DNA match. However, I’m pretty sure where this match fits in to my tree:

In fact, if I have it right, William McMaster and Margaret Frazer would be our common ancestors. Here is Gibbs’ version of the same tree:

His children on the second row go for a long, long way. I don’t show them all. This photo of Lucinda was on Ancestry. It shows her with her children:

Adding Gibbs to My McMasteer DNA/Genealogy Tree

I have a large tree already:

This is only one of the McMaster trees I descend from. I need to add Lucenda or Lucinda? here:

Here I’ve added Gibbs:

Sharon and hence me and my siblings are 4th cousins once removed. Gibbs has not linked himself to his tree, so Ancestry will not pick up the connection between our families on Ancestry Trees.

Shared Matches Between Gibbs and Sharon

This has been a short Blog, so I’ll add some bonus information. B.V was the top shared match. That is one reason that I knew that I was on the right track with Gibbs. Here is the connection that Ancestry has between BV and Sharon:

Sharon has a good match with BV – perhaps due to the fact that we are related to Frazers and McMasters in at least two different ways each.

Shared Match Robert

Sharon matches Robert by 48 cM on two segments. Robert has some Irish ancestry:

In the last row, James Hadden appears to be from Ireland. He married a Stewart. According to Frazer researcher Joanna, we should have Stewarts in our ancestry. So that may be the connection. I had put Margaret Frazer as the daughter of a Margaret Stewart, so that may be the connection – though it is a bit ancient:

I could continue on with Shared Matches, but it would be a lot of work to try to make connections. Gibbs does not match my other 4 siblings who I had tested at Ancestry. Gibbs does match a few other people who are in the Frazer DNA project.

Summary and Conclusions

  • If I had not checked my sister Sharon’s DNA results, I would have missed this match to Gibbs
  • Gibbs provides another branch to the line of William McMaster/Margaret Frazer > James McMaster born 1812
  • This is an interesting line as my familiy has at least double ties with both the McMaster and Frazer families
  • Some of these families were large, so I may expect some more matches.
  • One shared match had a Stewart name which is possibly linked to a Margaret Stewart born 1764 – or more likely her parents.

 

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A New YDNA Match to the Frazers of North Roscommon

I was notified by two Frazer relatives recently of a new match to the Frazers who have had their YDNA tested. YDNA is the best test for paternal lines because it specializes in only testing the DNA that males pass down from father to son – all the way back from genetic Adam.

I am not a Frazer, but I am interested in Frazer YDNA because my grandmother was a Frazer, so I had my 2nd cousin once removed Paul tested.

Barker Match to My 2nd Cousin Paul

Here are the list of STR matches at the 111 level that my cousin Paul has:

Barker is the third match to my cousin Paul, but really is tied for second at 4 steps away. Barker took the 111 STR test but not the BigY test.

A Frazer BigY Tree

Based on BigY testing and known or supsected genealogy, I came up with a Haplogroup tree:

The overall North Roscommon Frazer Haplogroup is FT421618. Apparently Dingman knew that his grandfather was actually a Frazer. We believe that he descends from Archibald Frazer from around 1743 and that he also has the North Roscommon heritage identified by FT421618. Next is my cousin Paul and Rick. They are on the overall Archibald Branch (2nd generation from the top) and they are designated as Y85652. From the tree above, this was a new SNP that appeared in either James Frazer or his father Philip. On the right above is the James Frazer Branch identified as Y151390. Both Rodney and Jonathan are in this branch. Y151390 developed in one of the four generations between Thomas Henry Frazer and James Frazer born around 1720.

A Frazer STR Tree

A STR tree is difficult to make due to parallel mutations and back mutations of STRs. However, this is somewhat offset as the BigY test has been taken. That provides a framework for the tree.

In this tree, I brought in a Frazier. He tested, but does not know his genealogy past colonial America. That puts him in a more distant group – going back to Scotland perhaps. The way I have this drawn, Jonathan has the STR profile that is closest to the ancestral Frazer. At Ancestry, here is the Block tree:

Above, the “Your branch” refers to my cousin Paul. The Block Tree looks at the world of SNPs and Barker has tested STRs. Hopefully, Barker will take the BigY test to place him in the group also.

How Does Barker Fit In?

Barker is clearly in the Frazer lineage. Further he is most certainly from the James Frazer (born about 1720) half of the Frazer Tree. Barker matches Jonathan perfectly:

However, perfectly may not always be perfect. That is because of the parallel mutations and back mutations of STRs which I mentioned earlier.  The CDY STR which defines the James Frazer Line is a fast moving STR. That means that Barker’s CDY could have mutated independently of Jonathan’s and Rodney’s line ancestor. However, let’s assume that didn’t happen.

Still the CDY mutation could have happened anywhere between James Frazer born around 1720 and Thomas Henry Frazer born in 1843:

Now the James Frazer in the Tree above was thought to be born around 1720. I believe that the Archibald Frazer with the red DYS710=34 value was of the next generation or from about 1743. If that is the case, it is theoretically possible that the match could even be on the Archibald (1715) side of the tree. However, so far based on the autosomal results so far, that does not seem to be the case.

We know that Barker does not have the same STR that defines Rodney’s branch. That STR is DYS552=24. That means that Barker, based on STRs descends from anyone between James Frazer born about 1720 and Edward Fitzgerald Frazer born 1867. As my understanding is that the father for Barker’s grandfather born in 1901 is unknown. That would make Edward Fitzgerald Frazer the latest possible ancestor of Barker. However, it appears that the autosomal results (see below) are too low for Barker to descend from Edward Fitzgerald Frazer.

Autosomal Results

Right now, we don’t have autosomal results for Barker, but we have some for his nephew. Barker’s grandfather was born in 1901, so he would be probably one generation removed from Rodney and Jonathan and Barker’s nephew would be two generations removed.

Here is a chart I have made up of those who have tested autosomal DNA from the James Frazer Line:

Not all these people have tested at the same company including Barker’s nephew. However, Barker did test at Ancestry which has the largest database, so that is good. At Ancestry, Barker’s nephew matches Madeline, Janet and Jonathan. There may be additional matches.

There are two major sides of the James Frazer Branch. They are the Archibald and Michael sides. From what we know so far from Ancestry, it appears that Barker’s nephew matches on the Archibald side.

Barker’s nephew matches:

  • Madeline at 17 cM
  • Janet and Jonathan at 14 cM

Ancestry usually considers 20 cM to be the cutoff for a 4th cousin, so this match may be a further out level than fourth cousin.

One guess that I had was that Barker may descend from the Edward Frazer Branch on the right side of the chart above. He was the one who married Mary Kirkwood. However, that branch is not well-represented by DNA testing or may just not be a prolific branch. The reason that I chose that branch is that Barker’s nephew matches people from the Archibald Frazer (born abour 1792) Branch at about the same rate. That could mean that Barker could be from a parallel branch. Edward Frazer is a parallel branch to Archibald Frazer.

Next Steps

Next, we can wait for any additional autosomal testing or BigY YDNA testing on Barker’s side.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Based on YDNA testing, It appears that Barker must descend from a North Roscommon Frazer historically
  • Futhermore, Barker appears to descend from the James Frazer (born about 1720) Line of these Frazers.
  • Based on Frazer YDNA tester Rodney, Barker does not descend from Rodney’s ancestor William Frazer
  • Based on autosomal testing of Barker’s nephew, it appears that Barker could be a third to fifth cousin once removed to Jonathan and Rodney. That would have him descending from James Frazer born around 1720, his son Archibald Frazer born 1751 or James’ grandson Archibald Frazer born abut 1792
  • More DNA testing should clarify Barker’s place in the Frazer genealogical tree.
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A Schwechheimer Match for My Mom at MyHeritage

There used to be an ad for a jam company that said, “With a name like Smuckers it has to be good”. In this case, with a DNA match with a name like Schwechheimer, it has to be a relative. This Schwechheimer match came up as a DNA match for my mom recently at MyHeritage:

The Scwechheimer Tree

The tree is a bit sketchy:

Dates are only given on the maternal side.

I can try to build out a tree at Ancestry to see if I get anywhere.

My Version of the Schwechheimer Match Tree

I like this suggestion from an Ancestry Tree for Kurt Schwechheimer:

I have written to my mom’s Schwechheimer relative in Germany to see if this is the same Kurt that is in her tree.

Meanwhile, I see that the owner of the tree for Kurt Friedrich Schwechheimer is a match to my mother at ancestry.

My Mom’s DNA Match with Karin at Ancestry

This is a modest match. Here is Karin’s tree:

This tree is unlinked, so Ancestry is not working to see where our common ancestors are. I suppose that I could try and build out the Hirschenhof (maternal) part of Karin’s tree. Hopefully, the vital records are not in Russian for that time. Interesting, I already have a Smits tree going. It must be for a relative of Karin:

This is likely for Karin’s brother.

Delving into a Latvian Genealogical Website

The go-to website is https://www.raduraksti.arhivi.lv/. I’ll give that a shot. Here are the Church records for Linden:

However, I think that this is the wrong set of records. I believe that the first Linden below is correct:

Now I am noticing some discrepancies between the two trees above. One has Friedrich born in 1894 and one in 1896. Here is a Schwechheimer record from 1894:

Unfortunately, the record is in Russian. Does Mar mean March?

Meanwhile, I heard from my mom’s Schwechheimer match and Kurt is the same as Kurt Friedrich as I expected.

Looking for Helma Lutz

Entry #32 in the Linden Church records shows an Olga Helma born in 1902:

This entry goes on to the next page:

I’m going to make a guess that this is the correct Helma. This gives us two more names: Johann Jacob Nicolai Lutz and Emilie Friederike Lutz. Here the record keeper was nice enough to put the parents’ names into more understandable (to me) German.

I think that this Johann Jacob (second entry) fits the bill:

Here is the Ancestry transription:

The father’s middle name is abbreviated. Perhaps for Michael.

Here is Emilie Friederike in 1867:

I assume that the right side of the page are sponsors or godparents. The transcription adds the day and month:

Here are Emilie’s parents:

Here the initials before Johann Gustav Lutz are unclear to me. I suppose it could mean that he had been married before?

Above there is a slight discrepancy of the spelling of Gagnus and Gangnus – which is not unusual. I have a book on the Gangnus family which I take to be the correct spelling. It is by Gustav Gangnus written in 2003.

Friederike AKA Anna Friederike Emilie Gangnus

According to Gustav Gangnus’ useful book on page 71 Friederike was born 16 Mar 1843 and Georg Michael Lutz was born 24 Oct 1841:

Looking for Johann Gustav Lutz and Anna Catherine Gangnus

I have Emilie born in 1867. I like this choice for Anna Catharina:

That would mean that Anna Catharina likely was married 1841 or before.

Here is a possibility for Michael:

However this birth was in 1849 and would have Michael at age 18 at the birth of Anna Catharina Gangnus. It seems like given enough time, I could find at least one common ancestor between my mom and this Schwechheimer match, but I will leave this to another time.

Summary and Conclusions

  • A DNA match with a Schwechheimer name is very likely to be a match to my mother
  • Unfortunately, the match’s great-grandparents were born during a time when the birth records were in Russian
  • For Helma’s Lutz’s birth time-frame, the names of the person and the parents were also given in German in the birth records. This was helpful in going back one more generation
  • At the third great-grandparent level, two Lutz ancestors married two Gangnusses
  • Between the Schwechheimer and Gangnus names there are a lot of opportunities to find common ancestors, but those common ancestors have not yet been found.
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Dating Some of My Frazer Relatives’ YDNA Haplogroups Using a New FTDNA Tool

FTDNA has a new YDNA tool called Discover:

Here is a tree I made up of my Frazer relatives who have BigY tested:

Here Dingman’s grandfather is a Frazer. However, there is some confusion at the point of John or Richard Frazer in his line. This Branch has the umbrella Frazer Haplogroup of FT421618. It looks like Y85652 should be older than Y151390, but they are in parallel positions on the tree. What it should mean is that there has been more time to develop privant variants on the James Frazer Line of 1804 as compared to the Thomas Henry Frazer Line of 1836.

Here is what all that looks like on the FTDNA Block Tree. This is from the perspective of Jonathan (Joanna’s brother):

Here I went back one haplogroup to bring in the Frazier name. We don’t know how Frazier fits in with the Frazer tree except that the connection predates what we know about the Frazer tree. On the tree above, Paul is my second cousin once removed.

Dating R-Y85652: James Frazer c. 1804

I’ll start with my closest relatives’ Haplogroup.

I’ll zoom in on my image from above:

We know that James Frazer must have been Y85652 and if we have the tree correct above, Archibald Frazer born about 1743 was not Y85652. That means that it is possible that Philip Frazer was Y85652.

Here is the verbal part of the report:

Now I will need you to check my math on this one. It is 2022 and 350 years before that is 1672. I’m not sure how that ended up as 1700 CE. When I checked on my own Hartley dating, it seemed like the years were being subtracted from the date of 2000.

I had assigned FT421618 to Archibald Frazer who we think was born around 1690. This estimate would have him born about 50 years earlier or perhaps 1650. This estimate seems closer to the date we think that Archibald Frazer was born. However, we will have to wait until later in the Blog when I will plug FT421618 into the Discover tool.

Dating Y151390 from the James Frazer Branch

Here, the good news is that FT421618 is 400 years ago. That would have to be consistent.

Here again, I’m baffled by the math, but 150 years ago comes out to about 1900 CE. When I was young, I learned about the rules for rounding numbers and this doesn’t seem to meet those rules. Furthermore, 150 years ago with 150 years either way is a large margin. For example, it would be impossible to have a common ancestor with someone who was born zero years ago. At any rate, we are quite sure that the common ancestor for Rodney and Jonathan was born in 1836:

My guess is that the issue is that there is an average of 5 private variants between Rodney and Jonathan:

It would seem that is a large number of private variants for three generations. Usually, I believe that there should be about one private variant per every two generations or about every 84 years. That is close to one every three generations. It may be worth taking a second look at these Private Variants at some point. I looked that these private variants here in January 2021, but these were still in a state of flux at that time. For example at that time, there were only an average of 4 private variants in this Branch.

Dating FT421618 – The First Frazer in Roscommon, Ireland?

We believe that this Haplogroup represents Archibald Frazer born around 1690 and believed to be the first Frazer in North County Roscommon.

Here, the dates have normalized and they have been subtracted from the year 2000 to get the year 1600 for FT421618. I am quite sure that the large number of private variants that seemed to have occurred later in the two Frazer lines were creating havoc with the dating tool.

Note that above it says that there is 1 yet unnamed lineage. This would be the Dingman Line which still has the designation of FT421618. This report gives the next Frazer Branch going up the line as 600 years ago. That is the Branch that includes Frazier (or Frasher). If that is subtracted from the year 2000, then that date would be around 1400. As we think the 1600 date may be closer to 1690, I would feel comfortable in adding 90 years to 1400 to get 1490. Here is some information on surnames in England, some of which may apply to the Frazers who may have been in SW Scotland around this time.

According to familysearch.org:

The custom of applying a man’s by-name to all his children began in the late 12th century and spread slowly, with the manorial classes and the south of England leading the way. The first legal recognition of an hereditary surname is found in 1267; it was de Cantebrigg meaning ‘of Canterbury.’ By 1400 three-quarters of the population are reckoned to have borne hereditary family names, and the process was complete by about 1450 in England. Wales is an exception, in that although they had surnames they were patronymics (derived from the father’s first name) and thus changed each generation.

During this early period a married woman could be known either by her maiden surname or by her husband’s surname with wyf added, as in Mary Walker, wife of Henry Field, or Mary Fieldwyf. The term Mrs. for a married woman was not used until after 1500.

Dating YP6489 – Frazier

This Haplogroup goes back a ways.

As I had thought, this Haplogroup goes back to a predicted year of 1400, though as I mentioned above a somewhat later date by 90 years would not be unreasonable. The later date of 850 years ago or the year 1150 would most certainly be before surnames were commonly used.

YP6488 Includes the Stuart and Grant surnames.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It seems like FTNDA’s new Discover Tool gives Frazer Haplogroups within reasonable time frames
  • The large number of private variants on two of the newer Frazer Haplogroups seem to be giving the tool some problems.
  • I would like to take another look at Frazer Haplogroups and Private Variants in an upcoming Blog.
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My Frazer Cousin John at Ancestry

I have had a DNA match with John for a while at Ancestry, but haven’t figured out the connection until today. Here is the match:

 

John does not have a searchable tree. However, note that John’s test is managed by Dawn. She has a tree and in that tree, her husband John descends from a Frazer.

This is an easy connection, because I know who Hubert Frazer was:

Hubert was my great-grandfather’s younger brother:

My great-grandfather James Archibald Frazer is sitting down on the left. Hubert is standing on the right. James was about 11 yeaers older than Hubert.

Here, I’ll just add in John to my Frazer DNA/Genealogy Tree:

Assuming I have the right John, he is Paul’s first cousin. I had Paul’s DNA sent to FTDNA where he was tested for YDNA which is the male Frazer line. That makes John my second cousin once removed. This is a big discovery, because, as Paul was tested at FTDNA, John is a good representative of this line of Frazers at Ancestry where there are many more matches than at other testing companies.

My Shared DNA Match with John

My last Shared DNA Match with John is with Dianna. Dianna has a basic tree:

The top part of the tree is Belgian and the bottom favors Ontario. As I have traced one part of my ancestry to Ontario, that would be the place to look first.

Building Out a Tree for Dianna

Turns out that there is a marriage record for Abraham Brandon which is helpful:

This brings us back a generation:

Dianna’s ancestors got added as living, so I need to change that. The death record for Kathleen (or Catherine) gives her parents’ names:

This record mentions Ireland, so that puts us in the right part of the World. This is as far as I got with Dianna’s tree:

Many of these ancestors seemed to be from Northern Ireland. I was getting to the point of diminishing returns, so I may come back to this tree later.

Shared Matches Between John and My Siblings

Shared matches between John and my siblings may give more clues. On one sibling’s shared matches, I saw a Johnston in a tree. I don’t know if I am related, but Johnstons did marry Frazers in the area of Ireland where my Frazers came from.

My sister Lori has a much larger DNA match with John compared to me. Lori matches John at 95 cM. Lori shares a match with John and Glen. Ancestry shows that Glen has two Frazers in his direct ancestry:

That saves me building out Glen’s tree. Glen has Maggie from Scotland and Australia:

Here is what I have in my tree:

This Richard Frazer was born in Ireland and died in Glasgow. Glen’s Maggie was from Glasgow. Glen and I share a DNA match with Jane. Here is Jane on my Frazer DNA/Genealogy Chart:

I got in touch with Jane and she has that Margaret Frazer was the daughter of Archibald Frazer and Winifred Conlon. That came out as Winifred Collins on Margaret’s death certificate. This record is from Jane’s tree:

Also from Jane, here is Margaret’s baptismal record:

I’ll add Glen to my Frazer DNA/Genealogy Tree:

That brings us out to 5th cousins through Richard Frazer and an unknown wife.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was glad to figure out a Frazer match based on the tree of his administrator.
  • That gives me a hint to try other matches I’m not aware of based on the administrator’s tree
  • Checking into shared DNA matches is always a good idea as it may bring up new connections
  • John fills in a gap in my DNA/Genealogy tree – especially with respect to AncestryDNA matches as I tested his first cousin at FTDNA.
  • Thanks to imput from Cousin Jane, I was able to add my 5th cousin Glen (and shared match with John) to my Frazer DNA/Genealogy Chart.
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A16717 Branch of Hartleys Added to the FTDNA L513 Project Tree

R-A16717 has been part of FTDNA’s YDNA Tree since March 2022. However, this branch did not make it to  the FTDNA L513 Project tree until the end of July 2022. A16717 is a fairly recent branch and is significant as all branches of the YDNA tree are, but this branch is very significant to my particular Branch of Hartleys.

The Big Picture

This is the really big picture. Göran Runström from FTDNA updates these numbers monthly. There should be a new update within a week:

A16717 is only one branch among the 26,742 branches under R and 55,842 branches altogether. R is broken down usually between the larger R1b and smaller R1a group.

Here is the big picture of the R1b group:

At the bottom left of the tree is L513 where my branch of Hartleys are. The larger branch under L513 is S5668. Here is the tip of the iceburg view of L513:

There is an image above representing ‘Celts and other folks’ who were in the British Isles. Hartleys would be under Z16357 which shows as being in England just around or before the time of the Celts.

S5668 Tree

There used to be one L513 Tree when there were fewer branches. Now there are two trees. Here is the S5668 Tree:

This chart is more useful for genealogical purposes as it includes surnames. Hartley is near the bottom left of this tree:

Here I tried to get those under the Z16343 Branch. Under Z17911, Hartley is the only surname with multiple branches. Each branch of Hartley represents two BigY testers.

How This Part of the YDNA Tree Looks Like at FTDNA

FTDNA portrays the results in the form of a ‘block tree’. Here are the results for A11138 and down from my perspective:

This is the more detailed view. I am at FT225247 where I match my brother James. Michael and Lawrence represent a US Colonial Branch of Hartleys who moved to Pennsylvania from being persecuted as Quakers in Lancashire, England. This was the A16717 that was just added to the FTDNA L513 Project Tree above. John and Steve represent an older branch of Hartleys that the other two branches descend from.

More on Dating Haplogroups

FTDNA has come out with some new tools recently. Here is one that is helpful for dating haplogroups:

I put my Haplogroup in and get this:

This is a little small to see. Here is a larger image of the left side:

This says that our common ancestor was born around 100 years ago. My father was born in 1918, so I would say that is pretty accurate. Secondly,
A11134 is said to have branched off 450 years ago. That could also be right as that would be the year 1570. That means that the common ancestor for the six BigY tested Hartleys would be around 1570.

Dating A16717 – An Early American Quaker Hartley Branch

Here we have a date of 1600, so they seem to be subtracting the 400 from the year 2000. I actually have what I think is the actual date for the common ancestor between Michael and Lawrence:

 

I have that as 1666. This is the better-documented Branch of Hartleys. Surprisingly, the date that FTDNA has for A11134 is only 50 years earlier than A16717 or 450 years ago. If I subtract that from the year 2000 to be consistent, I get the year 1550. To me, that date seems better than subtracting 50 years from 1666 which would be 1616, but who knows?

Dating A11134 – The Hartley Umbrella Branch

But wait, there’s more. I need to add in A11134:

Two Yet Unnamed Hartley Lineages

I just noticed that the explanation for A11134 says that there are 2 yet unnamed lineages. I assume that these are Hartley Lineages for Steve and John.

The Mawdsley Surname

I have already gone over the 1600 date as being representative of the Hartleys. However, this dating goes one step further to the Mawdsley surname and seems to put it at 700 years ago or around the year 1300.

According to familysearch.org:

The custom of applying a man’s by-name to all his children began in the late 12th century and spread slowly, with the manorial classes and the south of England leading the way. The first legal recognition of an hereditary surname is found in 1267; it was de Cantebrigg meaning ‘of Canterbury.’ By 1400 three-quarters of the population are reckoned to have borne hereditary family names, and the process was complete by about 1450 in England. Wales is an exception, in that although they had surnames they were patronymics (derived from the father’s first name) and thus changed each generation.

During this early period a married woman could be known either by her maiden surname or by her husband’s surname with wyf added, as in Mary Walker, wife of Henry Field, or Mary Fieldwyf. The term Mrs. for a married woman was not used until after 1500.

Dating A11132 – Mawdsley and Hartley Ancestors

If I use the new FTDNA tool for A11132, it should include Mawdsley (A11132) and Smith (A111138):

By the way, the grayed out portion will always be grayed out as it represents the female portion of the tree and YDNA represents only the male portion.

That means that I figured out how FTDNA dates from the year 2000. I assume that 1300 was before most had surnames, so perhaps Mawdsley was never Hartley – though they do share the ‘ley’ which I take to mean field. That also means that the Smith tester’s results go back to the year 800 – very old indeed. Mawdsley must have an additional lineage since 700 years ago that is separate from the Hartley group of A11134.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Hartley Branch A16717 was added recently to the FTDNA L513 Project Web Site. I had notified the creator that it was missing and he added it.
  • I look at the bigger picture of the YDNA tree to show where my Hartley Branch fits in.
  • I looked at the new FTDNA Discover Tool. This tool takes out some of the guesswork in trying to date YDNA Haplogroups
  • This tool also gives ranges of dates. This is useful when more information is known about the genealogy.
  • I checked the dates that the tool gave for the overall Hartley Branch of A11134 as well as for its two branches.
  • I also checked the dates for Mawdsley and Smith. Assuming the dating is correct using the FTDNA Discover tool, Mawdsley from the year 1300 was most probably never a Hartley name and the upstream Smith was certainly before the age of surnames as the current Smith Haplogroup goes back to the year 800.
  • Finally, I realized that the FTDNA Discover Tool predicts haplogroups that will have additional lineages.