Frazer Relative Richard at MyHeritage

A match recently showed up for me with Richard. I have been in touch with Richard before who is a match to me at AncestryDNA also:

Here is my match with Richard at MyHeritage:

I have written other Blogs about Richard. Here is one where I mention two other Blogs. Richard’s genealogy and  DNA match give evidence of our common descent from Phillip Frazer as shown in the image above.

 Richard and DNAPainter

I have not added Richard to my DNAPainter profile. Here is Richard added to my Chromosome 7:

The match is small and does not show up at Gedmatch where Richard also has his DNA results. However, the matches are those that I have as being from the Philip Frazer Line.

Here is my match with Richard on Chromosome 17:

Here Rihard overlaps with his brother Barry and also with Michael whose ancestry goes back to Richard Frazer. It is possible that the connection could be from the father of Richard and Philip who was Archibald Frazer.

My Philip Line DNA/Genealogy Tree

Here is part of the tree as I have it:

Richard and Barry are in the green area. I cut off much of my own line. Due to intermarriage and some missing wives’ names, it can be difficult to trace the DNA. For example, my ancestor James Frazer married his cousin Violet Frazer who was the daughter of Richard Frazer, the brother of Philip Frazer. Also I have no wives’ names for Philip or Richard.

My Sister Lori and Barry

My sister Lori has a good match with Richard’s brother Barry:

Here are Lori and Barry’s shared matches at AncestryDNA:

A blue dot means I probably have not looked at these matches.

This is how Lori and Barry match at Gedmatch:

Here is Barry added to Lori’s DNAPainter Profile:

 

Some Philip Frazer Genealogy

The genealogy goes back to the 1700’s and is a bit unclear. I have this 1950’s genealogy:

I clearly descend from James and Violet Frazer. Violet was a daughter of Richard Frazer. The above genealogy has Philip and George as the sons of Philip. My best guess is that James was a third son of Philip.

Here is the Tithe Applotment for Derrycastle (or Derrycashel):

Here we have listed George, Philip and James Frazer. My theory is that these three were sons of Philip Frazer. They may or may not be listed in their birth order. Ancestry gives the date of this record as 1833, but I am not sure of the actual date of the record.

Here is what I have at my web page:

Philip was a farmer probably in Derrycashel. He had three sons. The birth order is probably backwards above. He was born probably between 1751 and 1776. By the Tithe Applotment around 1833, he had probably passed away but his three children were still living in the area. As we have no further information about George other than a death date, he may have not married or if he did may not have had children.

I know that my 3rd great-grandfather James Frazer lived in this house in Derrycashel:

Perhaps his father Philip also lived there. George died in 1831. That means that the Tithe Applotment was before that time or that the Applotment listed the land as being still under George’s name. My 2nd great-grandfather George Wiliiam Frazer may have been named after this George.

Philip. Son of Philip and the 1830 Freeholder’s List

Joanna, a Frazer researcher living in Scotland has this document on her Frazer Tree at Ancestry:

This is an extract from the Roscommon Leitrim Gazette from September 1830 listing a Philip Frazer as a freeholder in Smutterna and Aughrefinnegan. This is interesting as it was unusual for people to own land during this time.

Here is Smutternaugh:

Smutternaugh is a few townlands away from Derrycashel.

Here is what I have on my old web page on the Frazers:

I believe that Anne was another daughter born to Philip in 1833.  These children appear to have been baptized in Kilmactranny Parish. This is in Sligo County. The Kilmactranny records have missiong information which would account for why there is no record for Anne Frazer.

I am trying to think of a scenario that would have Philip being a freeholder in Smutternaugh and also being a farmer in Derrycashel. One possibility would be that it was Philip the father who owned the land in Smutternaugh and the children lived in Derrycashel. The question would be: why did the land not go to the children?

More on Freeholders

I wrote to Frazer researcher Joanna and she was able to give additional insight to the Freeholder’s List. I think that Joanna was quoting here from an article:

“If your ancestor was a substantial small farmer or merchant, he was likely to have been a freeholder, especially if your ancestral farm or property holding (albeit rented) dates back to pre-famine times.

If your ancestor was a tenant he may have been a freeholder depending on the type of lease he had with his landlord.  

• • A freehold lease could be for one or more “lives” – his own life or for the lives of other people named in the lease. A lease of “3 lives” was a common type of lease, especially in the 1700s. It lasted for as long as the 3 people named in it remained alive. Generally, the others named on the lease were sons, sons-in-law, or “partners” (in-laws) sharing the land collectively. 

If your ancestor was part of a collective or shared interest in a farm of

land that was a freehold worth a mere 40 shillings (£2) per annum above the rent, he could appear on freeholders lists for the period from 1796 to 1829 (when both Catholic and Protestant “40 shilling freeholders” qualified to vote).”

This was new information to me. I had thought that being a leaseholder and a freeholder were mutually exclusive. Now I see that is not the case.

Who Were the Three Smutternagh Frazers in the Freeholder’s List?

Joanna feels that the three Frazers listed in the Freehold list were related to each other and I agree with this.

PHILIP FRAZER

He is listed first. I do not know if this is significant. Joanna notes:

I have collected a few of these newspaper Freeholders lists and various petitions to Viscount Lorton,  and found that in 1843 Alexander and Edward L Frazer are living at Smutternagh. 

From this I take it that Philip was no longer living in Smtternagh. So if I have the genealogy right and the right Philip, this suggests that my ancestor could have been Philip of Smutternaugh. Smutternagh is an odd-sounding Townland. Here is a photo found on-line of Smutternagh:

My assumption is that the Philip in the Freeholder’s List is the son of Philip and brother of George and my ancestor James Frazer. It also appears that some time soon after 1830, Philip moved from Smutternagh to Derrycashel. This does not answer all the questions. Smutternagh would have been in Kilbryan Parish. Yet the baptisms for Philip’s children are recorded in the Kilmactranny Church in Sligo County. Perhaps Philip’s wife was from Kilmactranny.

One confusing thing about Philip is that I have two marriages for Philip:

Here I assume that the notation son of Phiip is an interpretation. However, from the above information, I assume that the elder Phiip remarried to Jane Johnston of Kilmactranny or that Philip, son of Philip married twice. The second record is a birth record, but presumes that Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor were married prior to the birth of Philip. However, at the time of the Tithe Applotment, I believe that there is only one Philip listed. This must have been Philip Junior.

ALEXANDER AND EDWARD FRAZER

Joanna writes:

Alexander could probably be Alexander Stinson Frazer, but Edward L Frazer cannot be his son Edward Lillie Frazer (not born until 1854) 

Here is my guess for Alexander and Edward:

At the top is Archibald Frazer who married Mary Lillie (or Lilly). I have Philip as son of Philip and brother of my ancestor James Frazer. I have Alexander Frazer bottom right of the image above. Then I have Edward as the brother of Alexander Frazer. That would be my best guess at this time. The freeholders in the list were probably two brothers and one cousin (Philip). It would seem to make more sense if these three Freeholders were all brothers, however, that does not seem to be the case.

I also note that these three likely Freeholders were likely around the same age. Alexander would have only been 24 in 1830, so quite young. Edward would have been 27. Philip would have been older as he had at least three children by 1830. If it was his father who married in 1818 and Philip Junior who married Mary Taylor and had a child Philip in 1825, then he could have been born around 1800. If it was Philip Junior who married Jane Johnston in 1818, he would have been born in the late 1700’s.

My notes for Edward say that he moved to the USA, but I don’t remember where I got that information. Perhaps the Edward Lillie born in 1854 was named for Alexander Stinson Frazer’s brother Edward L who moved away.

ARCHIBALD FRAZER

I left out Archibald Frazer from the 1830 Freeholder’s List. Joanna notes that Archibald is not mentioned in an 1843 Freeholder’s list for Smtternagh, but now Edward L Frazer is listed. Let’s go back to the tree:

Here there are two options. First the Archibald could be the one at the top. I note that his birth date cannot be correct as he would have been 12 at the birth of William. I’ll need to correct that. My second guess is that Archibald may have had a son born before William Frazer. This could have been another Archibald. The Father of the Archibald who married Ann Stinson was also Archibald. One tradition would be to name your first son after your father. Perhaps this first son Archibald passed away or otherwise left the scene between 1830 and 1843 and the land went to his brother Edward L.

Summary and Conclusions

• Richard’s posting of his DNA results at MyHeritage was helpful
• One match with Richard and Michael on Chromosome 17 appear to go back to Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilly from around 1743
• A helpful document from that Joanna had indicated that one of my ancestors Philip Frazer may have lived in Smutteragh near Lough Key. This pushes back the likely location of my Frazer family by one generation
• My guess is that the three Freeholders listed in an 1830 Newspaper were Alexander and Archibald sons of Archibald Frazer and Stinson and Philip Frazer, son of Philip Frazer Senior – my ancestor.
•  One technique I use in my research is to try to tell a story based on what the facts appear to be saying. If the story makes sense, perhaps I have interpreted the facts correctly.
• I could further theorize that the Archibald who married Mary Lilly had land holdings or a lease for 3 generations. These three generations could have gone down to three of his granchildren: Philip, Alexander and Archibald. Archibald could have passed away and the land went to Edward L Frazer.
• This 1830 Frazer Freeholder List could use further analysis in the future.