Deborah’s Frazer Ancestry and DNA

I first heard from Deborah two years ago. She was interested in finding out if her Frazer heritage matched up with mine and was also interested in the DNA aspects of the genealogy. Deborah had tested at AncestryDNA and I suggested that she upload her DNA to Gedmatch to compare with other Frazer descendants. In March of 2018, I looked at Deborah’s DNA at Gedmatch and only found one Frazer match.

Based on only this one match, I didn’t follow up further. My guess at the time was that, “It may be a match from way back or from some other non-Frazer line also”.

Up To 2020

I recently heard from Deborah again, so I appreciate her keeping in touch. Here is part of Deborah’s recent email:

I have had some links to research via the ancestry thrulines which overlaps again with some of your research . I am not sure how accurate this all is but hope it is of some interest , kind regards Deborah

Deborah Frazer DNA Thru lines from Ancestry.co.uk

William Frazer 2nd Great Grandfather 1812-1887 4 DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 3rd Great Grandfather 1760 3 DNA matches

Anne Stenson 3rd Great Grandmother 1759-1848 4 DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 4th Great Grandfather 1732-1800 4 DNA matches

Private ( Query Mary Lilly 1726-1775) 4th Great Grandmother 4 DNA matches

Samuel Stinson 4th Great Grandfather 1750 – 3DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 5th Great Grandfather 1690-1749 3 DNA Matches

Mary McDowell 5th Great Grandmother 1695-1786 2 DNA Matches

Thomas Lilly 5th Great Grandfather 1695 – 3 DNA matches

Mary Browne 5th Great Grandmother 1683-1731 3 DNA matches

I checked Deborah at Gedmatch, but couldn’t find her there anymore – perhaps due to the new Gedmatch owner and the policy requiring member approval to stay in the system.

Deborah’s Frazer Tree

Here is Deborah’s tree starting with her grandfather David Frazer:

Previously, Deborah had researched up to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton. However, above, Deborah now makes the connection to Archibald Frazer and Anne Stenson. This could be the same that I have in my Frazer DNA group. I sent Deborah a copy of a chart of the Frazer/Stinson Line:

Unfortunately, I’m not an expert on this line as I descend from a different Frazer Line. However, due to intermarriage and common older ancestors, I am related to people on this line. The above chart represents people who descend from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson and had DNA matches. The tree above does not show William Frazer as a son of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. That does not mean that he was not their son, necessarily. The one person who Deborah matched by DNA was Susan in the yellow group on the right. My feeling was that if Deborah was truly in this line she should have matched more than one person from the Frazer/Stinson Line.

Taking a Look at William Frazer of Armagh (1812-1887)

There are a few ways I could do this. One is to build out my own tree for Deborah on her Frazer side. The other would be to look at other Frazer trees. I’ll build out my own tree to see if I get the same results.

Deborah has this 1901 Census referenced on her tree:

This has David Frazer as a printer, married with three children. One interesting thing is that David was from the Church of Ireland. My Roscommon Frazer ancestors also belonged to the Church of Ireland.

Checking Other Sources for William Frazer

Building my own tree for Deborah was taking too long, so I decided to try other sources. I did a search for trees with Ann Stinson and Archibald Frazer. The first tree that comes up references my own web site:

My web site has a William born about 1804. The tree I looked up links this William to the 1834 Tithe Applotment in Derrycastle in the Parish of Ardcarn in Roscommon:

This William was  associated with an Anne (perhaps Anne Stinson Frazer – his mother?).

Deborah’s ThruLines

Deborah kindly gave me access to her DNA results so I could see her ThruLines. ThruLines is a utility that Ancestry has to connect DNA matches with common ancestors in family trees.

ThruLines to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton

For some reason, Deborah’s ThruLines focus on William Frazer:

Because of that, the ThruLines incorrectly show Deborah’s matches as half cousins where I believe they should be full cousins. All these DNA matches tend to confirm that Deborah is on the right track up to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton.

Deborah’s ThruLines to Archibald Frazer and Anne Stenson

This is the part I am more interested in:

Deborah has three DNA matches to Archibald and four DNA matches to Anne. However, there are no new DNA matches at this level, so there is no new information here:

The same is true for the next level up. If Deborah was from the Frazer/Stinson Line, I would have expected other DNA matches to other descendants of the other children of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson such as I have on my Chart above.

Any Conclusions?

At this point, I would go with my original thinking that William Frazer born 1812 was not the son of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson. If he was, I would have expected more matches with other lines from other children of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson. Also, I have no evidence that Archibald Frazer and Anne Frazer moved to Armagh and had a son there. It is possible, but also possible that did not happen. Here is how I picture the shared DNA matching:

There is a circle of shared matches with the Roscommon Frazer Group and a separate circle of shared DNA matches with the Armagh Frazer group. Linda matches Deborah and thus the two cirlcels with a borderline low match. This may be a false match or a match indicating an ancient Frazer or non-Frazer match.

A Sure Way To Test Frazer’s By YDNA

There is one way to show for sure if the two Frazer families are related. L.F. could take a YDNA test.

L.F. shows as a direct male descendent of William Frazer. The Frazer Line from Roscommon is well documented by YDNA as being far down on a branch of R1a type YDNA. If L.F. was to take a YDNA test, it would show if he was from the more common Frazer YDNA type of R1b or the rarer Roscommon County Frazer YDNA type of R1a.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Deborah has Frazer ancestry that goes back to County Armagh in Ireland
  • ThruLines indicated that Deborah had a connection to my Frazer ancestry in County Roscommon, Ireland
  • ThruLines show a good DNA connection with others to their common ancestors of William Frazer of Armagh and his wife Letitia Singleton.
  • Further back than that on the proposed Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson Line, no new DNA matches were added by ThruLines.
  • It appears that the shared matches for the Frazer/Stinson Line are separate from the shared DNA matches of the Frazer/Singleton Line. That means that the two lines do not appear to be related. Even though this seems like a negative result, this is a positive result as far as directing genealogical research.
  • A sure way to test if the two Frazer Lines are related would be to test LF who is a direct male descendant of William Frazer. That would tell if he was related to the County Roscommon Line of Frazers – even if that connection went back to Scotland.

 

 

 

One Reply to “Deborah’s Frazer Ancestry and DNA”

  1. Many thanks for this blog , really interesting and helpful. I will see if I can find out more about William Frazer and Letitia to help confirm their parents . Deborah

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