There are many Hartleys in the world. Not all of them are related which shows up in the YDNA testing. This is my first update in over 2 years on my Hartley YDNA.
My Hartley Branch is R-A11132
This branch may be shown many different ways. This view is from the Big Tree:
My Hartley overall group is R1b and further L21. R1b is mostly European and L21 can be loosely associated what is called Celtic background. In my case this could be considered perhaps early British as opposed to the later arriving Anglo Saxons. This designation is based on SNP testing.
From the chart above, our branch of Hartleys are associated with the Z17911 Branch of Bennett, Phillips, Merrick, Thomas and Smith and more distantly associated with the Z16854 Branch of Pillsbury, Hayes and Hays.
Why Is My Hartley Branch R-A11138 at YFull?
Here I am under A11138 at YFull’s YTree:
Under R-A1138, there are two people. It is difficult to tell who they are due to only id’s being used. I had assumed that these two were me and the other Hartley BigY tester. But, based on the the A11138 designation, I think that the other person in this group must be Smith:
So now I hope that my BigY Hartley match uploads his results to YFull.
Dating Hartley YDNA
YDNA can be dated by SNPs or by STRs
I recently posted information on a Facebook page noting that I had 9 BIgY matches and only one 111 STR match. One informed responder noted that:
It’s pretty unusual to have one Y111 match and 9 Big Y matches certainly! Actually though that would normally mean the STRs have mutated faster than usual and the SNPs have mutated more slowly than usual, so that enough STRs have changed that only one match is left within the STR matching threshold (10 at Y11) while fewer than 30 SNPs have changed between yourself and the 9 matches so they show up on the Big Y matching report.
Unless there is some other reporting error at work, I highly suspect that 8 of those Big Y matches are off on their own branch where their common ancestors had a lot of STR mutations and pulled them all out of reach of your STR matching threshold!
The person above, David Vance also produced a STR Mutation History for the group I am in. Here is the Hartley/Smith portion:
This shows that the common ancestor between Smith and Hartley is around 900 AD. The common ancestor between my Hartley match is 1400 AD. David further notes:
The age estimates in green are based on the STRs, not the SNPs; but are overall pretty consistent with the Big Tree estimates although note they align with the END of each block, not the start (since they refer to when the branching underneath each node first started).
This dating is helpful as it is the only one that I have right now. However, it is possible to roughly date the FTDNA Block tree by using 144 years times the average private variants under A11132. As there are an average of three private variants, that comes out to 432 years. I could add another 63 years for my age to get roughly 500 years or about 1500 AD. So if this is right, I find it pretty amazing that my match and I have both kept the Hartley surname for between 500 and 600 years!
Summary and Conclusion
- By comparing my FTDNA Block Tree with the YFull YTree, I saw that YTree was missing some information. That missing information was my other Hartley Big Y Hartley match
- David Vance performed a STR Mutation History for me. This gave a Hartley common ancestor date of about 1400 AD.
- I did a rough estimate based on SNPs. The two Hartley’s have an average of three private variants. This would put our common ancestors at roughly 1500 AD.