Richard and a Frazer DNA Breakthrough: Part Two

In my previous Blog, I introduced Richard and his connection to the Frazer DNA Project by genealogy and DNA. In this Blog, I would like to take a look at Richard’s DNA at There, I can see where the matches are specifically on which chromosome and on which part of the chromosome.

Richard and the Philip Line

I had surmised that I and some others were part of the Philip Frazer Line. Philip Frazer was probably born about 1776 in North Roscommon, Ireland in an area called Aghrafinigan – or more specifically Derrycastle.

Derrycastle (or Derrycashel) is at the top center of the map and is in the Parish of Ardcarn whcih is at the lower right of the map. County Sligo is just above the map. Kilmactranny Church, where Philip’s children were baptized is in County Sligo. Here is an early marriage of Philip Frazer from the Kilmactranny Parish Church:

Nov 22, 1818    Philip Frazer  of Ardcarne parish

Jane Johnston  of Kilmactranny

Witnesses:  Edw. Johnston,   Edw. Johnston

I am not sure if this Philip is the elder Philip or his son. However, it clearly shows that Philip was of Ardcarn Parish and his wife Jane Johnston was of Kilmactranny Parish.

I had been wondering where some of the other descendants of Philip Frazer were. Richard has come forward as one of those descendants. Here is my proposed DNA tree of Philip descendants:


Richard is in the green line. I am on the bluish line on the right. The yellow line, like Richard’s Line ended up in Ontario. That would make Richard a 4th cousin once removed to Gladys and Paul. That is, assuming that we have the tree right. If I call Philip born 1776 generation one, the green and yellow lines moved from Ireland to North America in generation three. My line moved to Boston in generation four.

Richard’s DNA Compared to the Frazer DNA Project

The Project is getting large, so first I’ll compare Richard to the Archibald Line of the Project. Archibald Frazer was born around 1743.

And What a Matrix It Is

Here is a matrix of the Archibald Line Descendants:

Part of the trick with these matrices is getting the headings right. Descendants of single line Frazer Branches are in short supply. We think that Richard descends from the Philip Line only. That is one reason his results are so important. My branch descends from Philip and Richard. The group in the middle descend from Philip, Richard, and Archibald. That gets confusing. Michael and Jane descend from Richard and Archibald. David is not sure how he fits in, but by DNA, he seems to be in the Richard Line only. The group on the right only descend from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. I could have drawn another box for the Archibald Line going to Patricia, but it would have been too confusing and David, who I think is just in the Richard Line should not be in that box.

As Philip is the eldest brother and Richard is the only one that descends from only Philip, he is listed first. Looking across Richard’s DNA match results, they look reasonable. Richard’s matches with those in the Philip Line are higher and the matches with those that are not in the Philip line are smaller. This is true except for Richard’s match with Michael. There they have a larger than average match. Michael and Richard would be 5th cousins, once removed through the father of Philip.

Here are some matching numbers from the ISOGG web page:

This shows that Richard and Michael could be within reported levels of cMs for 5C1R. I see that Richard’s 4C1R matches are a bit above average and his 5C matches are a bit below average.

Here is how Richard and Michael match each other:

Richard and Michael may want to share notes to see if there could be connections in their family trees other than through the Archibald Frazer Line.

I checked Richard and Gary against the DNA of the James line but only found some matches just below the 7 cM threshold.

Richard’s Detailed DNA Analysis and Triangulation Groups (TGs)

Triangulation Groups are a bit of a holy grail for some genetic genealogists. These are important in trying to establish common ancestors. These TGs form when three or more people match on the same segment of the same chromosome. These three should be more distantly related than siblings.

I find the TGs by looking at the detailed matches between all the DNA tested people in the Archibald Line of the Frazer DNA Project. These segments are a bit different than the ones in the Matrix above. There is a lower threshold for the Matrix, so the detailed match criteria of 7 cM is a bit more stringent.

Here are Richard’s matches:

In order for Richard to be in a TG, he has to match someone more than once along the same segment. I can see that happens at Chromosome 10 with Doreen, Susan and Ken. However, these three are siblings. Then in Chromosome 17, Richard matches Michael, Joel and Lori. That is an interesting twist, as I was hoping for an all-Philip Line descendant TG.

A Chromosome 17 TG

The TG looks like this in table form:


  • Richard matches Michael from 53-72M
  • Richard matches Joel and Lori from 57-79M
  • Michael matches Joel and Lori from 57-70M

Here is how the TG may look on a tree:

This is a simplified tree as it doesn’t show the yellow line under Philip Frazer. In addition, the yellow line is missing a lot of DNA testers. Richard is on the bottom left in green. My family is in blue. Michael is in the salmon color under the Richard Line. Michael is also shown partially in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line. That is why I drew a circle in the area of the Archibald/Stinson line. This depiction shows the common ancestors of Archibald Frazer and Mary Lillie. However, we don’t know the wives of Philip or Richard. What if these two wives were sisters? Then the parents of these two sisters could also be the common ancestors of Michael, Richard, Joel and Lori.

Don’t Worry, Things Will Get Worse Before They Get Better

I had a junior high school science teacher that liked to say, ‘Don’t worry, things will get worse before they get better’. Perhaps it is that way with the DNA. This TG17 did point out one mistake that I had on my Kitty Munson Chromosome map.

Before I knew better, I had mapped position 57-70M to Richard Frazer. That was based on my match with Michael and our common ancestry of Richard Frazer. From what I know now, that is probably not correct. The Richard of this Blog probably does not descend from Richard Frazer born about 1777. A better guess at this time would be Archibald Frazer born about 1743. Now that is going back quite a way.

This is more accurate – for now:

A Surprise TG with Gary at Chromosome 7

In my last Blog, I had mentioned Gary. Gary had a pretty good Acheson tree. Some of his family were from the same area that my Frazer family was from around Lough Arrow in Southern County Sligo. Gary also showed up as a shared Match between me and Richard. Here is what the TG looks in table form:

This is perhaps easier to see from the viewpoint of Gary’s matches:

These are Gary’s matches with:

  1. Richard
  2. Paul
  3. Susan
  4. Joel
  5. Ken
  6. Lori

Remember that a TG shows common ancestry. Who do Richard, Paul, Susan, Joel, Ken and Lori have in common? That would be Philip born aboiut 1776 and his unknown wife. Here is the situation we have:

This means that it is likely that Gary has a connection with the Philip Line (or a Philip Line ancestor). As we have not come across Gary before in the Frazer project, that could mean that the common ancestor would more likely be

on Philip’s wife’s side. This is one of those cases where the DNA gets ahead of the genealogy.

We don’t want to leave Michael out of this. Michael matches Gary on a different Chromosome – Chromosome 22:

All these DNA matches are food for thought. They can be used to direct research energies.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Comparing Richard’s DNA to others in the Archibald Line shows an affinity to those who descend from Archibald’s son Philip born about 1776. I believe that Richard’s paper trail to Philip Frazer is a little better than mine. The DNA connection gives me more confidence that placing myself and the other Frazer shown in yellow on the DNA tree was the right thing to do.
  • One exception in Richard’s DNA matches was Michael. As far as we know, Michael does not descend from the Philip Line.  That would mean Richard and Michael’s DNA connection may go back to Archibald Frazer born 1743. Another possibility is that there is a connection between the family of Richard Frazer’s unknown wife and Philip Frazer’s unknown wife.
  • I was hoping to see some triangulation within the Philip Line. That did not happen, but further testing of other’s in Richard’s line may result in triangulation.
  • I find it interesting that Richard and I have been on parallel genealogical research paths. Both those paths have led back to a common ancestor – Philip Frazer – who was born in Aghrafinigan, North Roscommon around 1776.

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