Richard contacted me recently as he had seen my web page on my Frazer ancestors. He had seen some similarities between my Frazers and the names and places of Ontario Frazer ancestors he was researching and wondered if his Frazer ancestors matched with mine.
Here are some of the people that Richard has been researching. I have quoted Richard below in part:
Eliza Frazer, b. in Ireland on December 11, 1827 per 1901 Canada Census, having immigrated to Canada in 1842.
Ann Frazer, b. in Ireland about October 1832. No record to date of Ann’s birthplace or parents. She married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland) in 1853, probably in Brant or Oxford counties, Ontario.
Rebecca Frazer, b. 1837 in Ireland, d. 1877 in Huron County Ontario. Rebecca lived with Ann Frazer Johnston and Robert Johnston in 1861, as did Robert’s employee William Geddes. Rebecca married William Geddes in 1865. Their marriage record lists Rebecca’s parents as Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor.
George James Frazer/Fraser, b. July 6 1841 in County Sligo, Ireland. No record yet of date of immigration. George is listed in the 1861 Canada Census in Woodstock, Oxford County, Ontario, occupation school teacher. George married Jane Burgess (daughter of William Burgess and Elizabeth Ann Watt) of Woodstock in 1863 in Paris, Brant County, Ontario. The marriage record lists George’s parents as Philip Fraser and Mary Gray.
One interesting thing is that all these Frazers had children except Rebecca. Eliza, Ann and George all named their first child Philip. Richard guessed that Eliza was the one I had on my Frazer Web Page and that Ann and Rebecca were sisters. Richard descends from Ann who “…married Robert Johnston (b. Roscommon or Sligo, Ireland)…”
My initial guess was that all these four were siblings.
A Reassessment of the Philip Frazer Line
The earliest research on the Frazer line that we know of was done in the 1950’s:
This research shows Philip Frazer born 1758 with sons Philip and George. Subsequent research by Frazer descendents have moved these brothers’ birth dates up to the 1770’s. I reasoned that the James Frazer that married Violet Frazer above was actually another son of Philip above. This was based mostly on the James’ naming of his first son Philip and where these families lived in proximity to each other.
Here is my web page version:
Note that I have that the younger Philip married a Jane Johnston in 1818. However, it could be that the father Philip married this Jane as a second wife. Philip would have been about 42 in 1818.
Further, this George is of interest. My 2nd great grandfather was George Frazer born around 1836. He could have been named after the late George born say around 1800. Looking above, the George that the Richard of this Blog has could also have been named for the same George. This gives circumstantial evidence that he could also have been of this same Philip Line.
Finally, note the tithe applotment. My assumption is that George, Philip and James were three brothers. My second assumption is that they are listed in order of age. That would make George the eldest and James the youngest. I have James born around 1804 based on his age at death. That would put the two brothers as born sometimes before then – Perhaps 1800 and 1802.
More Thoughts on the Philip Frazer, Jr. Line
Here is my web page which is in need of revising:
First, I am leaning toward putting Jane Johnston with the elder Philip. Second, I now have a wife for the junior Philip from Michael’s compilation of Frazer records:
MLB Marriage Licence Bonds (Diocese of Elphin 1709-1845)
This information is interesting in light of Richard’s research showing that Rebecca’s parents were Philip Frazer and Mary Taylor. Richard’s Rebecca was born later than the one I have on my web page above. This could mean one of two things:
- The first Rebecca died and the family had a later Rebecca
- Rebecca wanted to be younger than she really was
This brings up the subject of the Maxwell Discontinuity.
The Maxwell Discontinuity.
I had told Richard that this was the Minion discontinuity, but apparently I was wrong. These are Minions:
Maxwell was the Parish Priest in Klmactranny. He was supposed to be taking down records but didn’t between sometime in 1830 and sometime before early 1842. For this reason, a lot of important records are missing. My 2nd great grandfather was born about 1836. So that could explain his missing birth record. Apparently the birth of Richard’s George James Frazer is missing due to the Maxwell discontinuity. Hmm… perhaps George James Frazer was named for the deceased George mentioned above and also for my ancestor James born about 1804. Well, James is a common name. Another issue for Richard’s George James Frazer is that his mother is listed as Mary Gray rather than Mary Taylor. There could be at least two reasons for that:
- The wrong name could have been written down for George’s mother on his marriage record
- George’s father could have remarried a Mary Gray. I suppose if this was the case, then DNA testing of descendants would show the difference. For example, matches between Richard and George’s descendants would be half cousins, so the DNA matches would be half as much as they would be with the full cousins.
What About Ann Frazer born 1832
If Ann Frazer was a sibling of Philip, Eliza, Rebecca and George she would have been born during the Maxwell Discontinuity. It would have been likely that she would have been baptized at the same Church as her siblings.
That sums up some of the genealogical connections between the families.
Next, on to the DNA
Richard’s Ancestry DNA Matches
Richard gave me access to his DNA results. I typed in Frazer on Richard’s match list and came up with these results:
These were just the projected 4th cousin by DNA matches. The first match was with Michael who compiled the Frazer records I mentioned above. The second match was with Gladys who I have as descending from Philip Frazer. Both of these people are the Frazer DNA project that I run. I don’t know who Debbie is.
Under more distant cousins, my sister Lori and I are listed. Then there is Moira who I don’t know. Finally there is someone who wished to remain anonymous, but is clearly related on what I have as the Philip Frazer (Sr.) Line. Once I saw the Ancestry results, I was quite sure that Richard was on the right track and was related by DNA and genealogy to the rest of the Frazers in the Frazer DNA Group.
But Wait, There’s More: Shared Matches
AncestryDNA doesn’t have a chromosome browser, but they do have a useful utility called Shared Matches. When I check the Shared Matches between myself and Richard, I come up with Gary. Here is Gary’s paternal tree from Ancestry:
Gary has his great grandfather William Acheson as being from Rockview, Lough Arrow, County Sligo. My Frazer ancestors lived on Lough Arrow and some of my relatives are still there. The ones I have been most in touch with live on the NE shore of Lough Arrow Here is a map of the Rock View Hotel, which I assume could be the same place:
Another tie-in is that Arthur, someone that helped with my genealogy years ago, was researching Achesons. Arthur was the one that coined the phrase Maxwell Discontinuity and discovered the gap of missing records.
It turns out that Gary’s father’s best man at his wedding was one of my Frazer relatives from near Lough Arrow. I had asked Gary to upload his results to Gedmatch. I didn’t see his message that he did that until I looked again at his results at AncestryDNA just recently. Right now Gary’s results don’t give me any easy answers, but there seem to be some interesting connections there – somewhere that we haven’t figured out yet. Ah, the mystery of genetic genealogy.
By the way, a Shared Match means just that. It means I match Richard by DNA. Richard matches Gary and I match both of them. It is not the same as triangulation by DNA but it could be the same. In a way it means, where there is smoke, there may be fire.
A Summary of Part One
- Some Ontario Frazers that Richard has been researching (including his own ancestor Ann Frazer) appear to be siblings. They also all descend from Philip Frazer. This appears to be the same Philip who I have as the son of another Philip from North Roscommon, Ireland and the brother of my ancestor James Frazer. I have not proven that my ancestor James is the brother of Philip, but the research from Richard adds circumstantial evidence to the work that I have done.
- In addition to matching by genealogy to my Frazer relatives, Richard matches me, my sister and two other Frazers in the Frazer DNA Project: Gladys and Michael. The match to Gladys can be explained if we are all descended from Philip Frazer born around 1776.
- Richard also matches Michael at AncestryDNA. I have that Michael does not descend from Philip born around 1776, but from two of his brothers: Richard and Archibald. That means that the common ancestor between Michael, myself, Gladys and Richard could be the father of Philip or another collateral line. Actually Gladys does match Michael on another Frazer Line. Both Gladys and Michael descend from Archibald Frazer born about 1778 who is a brother of the Philip born about 1776.
- Richard and I have another shared match Gary. The connection between this Gary, Richard and me may be even more difficult to figure out than the one between Michael, Richard and myself. This is because Gary is not aware of any Frazers in his ancestry.
- So far, my research on the Frazer family has been a great collaboration with other Frazer researchers around the world. I am glad to have Richard contributing his research to the work that others have done.
Next Blog
In the next Blog, I’ll take a look at Richard’s results at Gedmatch. AncestryDNA gives some general matching information, but does not give specific matches. With specific matches, on specific parts of specific chromosomes, it is possible to infer or give pretty good indication of common ancestors. This DNA may give further evidence for or against having my James Frazer in the Philip Line.
Also, I know how I am related to Michael. My ancestor Violet Frazer was the daughter of Richard Frazer born about 1777. Violet was the sister of Isabella Frazer who was the ancestor of Michael. However, I am not sure how Richard matches Michael. He would have a common ancestor in the father of Philip Sr who was Archicbald Frazer born about 1743, but that is going quite a way back.
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