I found out today that the Big Y results are in for Paul. He is my second cousin once removed on my Frazer side. So far, I can see that his SNP now is R-YP432. The Big Y will tell you what your lowest known FTDNA accepted SNP is. It will also tell you your SNPs that don’t even have a name yet.
R-YP432 is a branch of L664 which is part of a much larger R1a YDNA group. The chart below shows the L664 people as “Germanic”. Who knew? Wouldn’t one think that the Frazers would be Scots – not Germanic?
A more likely guess would have been that the Frazers would be with the Norsemen at Z284. The Norsemen probably made their way to Scotland. However, the YDNA seems to see it differently. The insert map above gives possible routes of migration. It shows the L664 coming out of the area of Germany and going up to England or Denmark. My history is not the best, but I do know that the Danes invaded the British Isles at some point. Could this have been related to the start of our branch of Frazers? Or perhaps some R1a ancestors joined up with the Norsemen. The Frazers could have even come in with the Anglo Saxons or William the Conqueror. Who knows?
Previous Predictions Based on STRs
Back in November 2015, I had written a Blog on Frazer YDNA. At that time, I had talked to an R1a administrator, Martin. He was quite sure, based on the STR testing, that our Frazers were L664. Further, based on values of specific STRs that Martin knew about, I had shown this Chart:
Martin had thought it unlikely that the Frazers would be in crossed out SNP areas based on their STR values. Notice that they turned out to be in YP432 on the bottom right.
How Old Is YP432?
YFull is a service that dates SNPs among other things. Here is their date for R-M198:
FTDNA previously had put Paul into the R-M198 Group. This is a very general R1a Group. Comparing Paul with other M198’s would put their most recent common ancestor at 8500 years ago. Aah, the good old days. The YFull Tree above brings us through 4,400 years of Frazer history – up to 4100 years ago. This is where I left off on the last Blog. The L664 Administrator for the R1a Project could tell that is where the Frazers should be based on their STR testing.
The YFull YP432 Tree
YFull shows a common ancestor for YP432 at 2800 years before present. I’m sure that gave the Frazers plenty of time to go from wherever they came from to Scotland and then to Ireland.
I plan to submit Paul’s Big Y results to YFull for further analysis. People that have submitted their Big Y results to YFull show up as ID’s. For example, it appears that id: YF09214 has English ancestors. Once YFull has a chance to look at the results, they may show a new branch of the YP432 Tree. One goal would be for the Frazers to have their own family SNP identified.
The YFull Tree is above and appears to be the better tree. Here is the FTDNA Haplotree which seems to be lagging in the YP432 Department:
One next step would be to compare the FTDNA “Novel Variants” to see if any of them are named SNPs on the YFull Tree. The other, as I mentioned is to submit Paul’s Big Y results to YFUll for analysis. I note that FTDNA does have YP431, but Paul is not listed under that SNP.
Where Are Our Frazers On the YP432 Tree?
I have trouble seeing the YFull Tree, so I drew my interpretation of it:
Our Frazers, according to FTDNA are at YP432*. However, as I’ve shown above, FTDNA doesn’t have as many SNPs listed as YFull does. All the ‘YP’ SNPs, in fact, are YFull identified SNPs. According to ISOGG:
YP = SNPs identified by citizen scientists from genetic tests, then submitted to the Y Full team for verification.
Who Are Some Other YP432 People?
The Frazers are part of the R1a YDNA Project. That project appears to have two small YP432 groups.
These five YP432 people appear to have ancestors from Norway or Sweden.
Other Big Y Matches
It took a little while for Paul’s matches to show up. It appears that the closest ones have a zero known SNP difference, so I chose them. Then the list is sorted by those that share the most Novel Variants. My question is, how novel could they be if they are shared? I think that what they mean is unnamed SNPs.
The numbers on the right are the SNPs that do match.
Paul’s matching Novel SNPs with Hayes
As noted above, Paul shares 30 Novel SNPs with Hayes. I looked up all the positions at ybrowse.org and many of those ‘Novel’ SNPs have names. Here are the first 26:
I was especially interested in the YP5500 series SNPs as that sounded like the YP5515 SNP which forms one of the branches of the YP432 Tree.
I did find YP5515. It was the 27th Shared Novel Variant between Paul and Hayes.
That is good news as that further defines the Frazer Branch. When I go back to the YFull Tree, I see that the one person there that is YP5515 is also YP5516, YP5517, YP5518 and YP5519. This is what is called a block of SNPs. Both Paul and Hayes are positive for these SNPs. YP5515 was probably chosen as representative of these SNPs and likely because it was the best quality SNP for testing.
What About Jonathan?
Jonathan’s test should be coming in shortly. His Big Y was ordered not too long after Paul’s. I had a bit of a scare, because I was looking at my old Blog. In that Blog, Jonathan was listed as R-M458. When I compared that to Paul’s R-L664, they were no where near each other. However, sometime since my old Blog and now, Jonathan has been stealthily changed by FTDNA to the more generic R-M198. I fully expect FTDNA to have Jonathan as R-YP432 when his Big Y results come out.
The Big Y’s strong suit isn’t in predicting the YP432. There are other tests that could have done that. The next step is to look at the private SNPs. Jonathan’s Big Y should be coming in next. That test should show some shared SNPs that should create a new branch off the YP432 tree. In fact, I’ve shown one branch already. I expect that there will be more branching off from R-YP5515.
It is interesting that the YDNA goes so far back. We wanted to find out where the Frazers were in Scotland. Instead, at this time, we’ve skipped Scotland and appear to be somewhere in Noway or Sweden! However, I feel like the Hayes match at YP4415 will reel us back into the area of Scotland and England at least.