This blog is not about all Butler YDNA, but about my father in law Richard’s YDNA. His results came in this week, so I thought I’d write a little about them. As he had 10 children, I thought that they might be interested.
Butler Genealogy
The Butlers are Irish. They are believed to come from the Kilkenny area. However, the documentation for that is not the best. Michael Butler was b. in Ireland around 1810. His son, Edward was b. in the 1830’s and made his way to the New World. He likely arrived in St. John, New Brunswick where he married Mary Crowley in 1855. I mention more details in my Blog on the Butler Brick Wall.
Deep Roots of the Butlers and Family Lore
My wife says that Butler is a Norman French name. She says the Butler name came from the fact that they were wine tasters. According to Ancestry.com:
Butler Name Meaning
English and Irish: from a word that originally denoted a wine steward, usually the chief servant of a medieval household, from Norman French butuiller (Old French bouteillier, Latin buticularius, from buticula ‘bottle’). In the large households of royalty and the most powerful nobility, the title came to denote an officer of high rank and responsibility, only nominally concerned with the supply of wine, if at all.
I had been a little skeptical about the family lore and figured that the Butler YDNA would be typically Irish which is R1b. According to Family Tree DNA:
R1b, which originated in western Europe, is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among Irish men, at a frequency of about 81.5%. I1 is the second most common with 6%, followed by I2b at 5%, R1a at 2.5%, and E1b1b at 2%. G2a is found in only about 1%. Also rare are I2a (1%) and J2 (1%).
So What Did the Results Show?
I was wrong. According to FTDNA my father in law is I-M223. According to FTDNA:
I-M223 was known as I2b1 and is now known as I2a2a by ISOGG
ISOGG is the International Society of Genetic Genealogists. I’m not sure if that means that our Butler is in the 5% or 1% group in Ireland. However, they are either quite rare or very rare there. So I signed up my father in law for the Butler YDNA project and also the I-M223 Project at FTDNA. At the I-M223 project, they put him in the group with others that are fairly close matches. Three have the name Butler and one has the name Whitson. That makes me feel like we are on the right track. It is not unusual to have other surnames match on the YDNA line. However, it is better to not be in the minority. The FTDNA group further put my father in law Richard into this curious category:
1.2.1.2.1.1.1.1- M223>…>L701>P78>S25733>A427: test I-M223 SNP Pack or I-M223 SNP Pack or S23612
This is a group with a lot of numbers. These first numbers probably went back to when someone could tell there was a certain signature in the YDNA results, but all the SNP tests weren’t developed yet. The second numbers are the SNP tests that the administrator thinks Richard would pass if he were to take them all. That is good, because it puts him several steps down the SNP tree. The last part is what the administrator wants the tester to do. One is to take a test that will test several SNPs. The other is to test for a specific SNP. In this case, the SNP is S23612.
Origins of the I-M223 Haplogroup
The I-M223 Haplogroup came into existence about around 17,600 years before present (ybp). Give or take a few thousand. The A427 branch is much more recent at 5,200 ybp. According to one YDNA Butler match to Richard, he feels that the origin of this branch of Butler that didn’t test positive for S23612 was in England and before that Germany. Some information from the Eupedia website also mentions that the L701 branch may have arisen from the Goths. I can imagine a stimulating dinner conversation with the Butler family: “So, I hear that the Butlers are descended from the Goths.” “What…???? I thought that we were descended from the Normans”. Who knows, maybe the Goths moved into France at some point and mixed with the Normans. Or they could’ve moved from Germany to England where the Normans were and then made their way to Ireland. I’m sure that there are many possible scenarios.
More Recent Connections
Two of the more recent Butler YDNA matches to Richard had roots in Ireland, so that makes sense. One had his earliest known Butler ancestor from the border of Laois and Kilkenny County. That is shown by a blue balloon below. That match had a GD or Genetic Distance of 4. The other was from Wexford and had a GD of 2 with Richard.
This shows some likelihood of having a common ancestor within a certain number of generations when your match has a GD of 4:
Here is a match with a GD of 2. Note the differences in Percentages.
Kilkenny or Wexford?
The 2 GD match who had a mariner Butler ancestor in Wexford is interesting for 2 reasons. When Edward H Butler, the son of Edward Butler, the immigrant ancestor died in 1925, he listed his father as being born in County Wexford, Ireland. The second reason is that the photo we have of the immigrant Edward Butler shows him in a sailor outfit.
Compare the above with the image of sailors our helpful YDNA Butler relative sent:
Perhaps Edward Butler had mariner background in Ireland or perhaps he was in the Navy in the American Civil War.
Two Death Certificates
Here is Edward Butler’s Death Certificate from 1915 showing that he and his two parents were born in Kilkenny
Ten years later in 1925, his son, Edward H Butler died and recorded that his father was born in County Wexford, Ireland. Why had his birthplace changed in 10 years?
So although the YDNA results don’t clarify the death certificates, they are consistent with where the death certificates say the Butlers were from!
Hi, I’m Michael Butler. I was born and raised in New Haven County Connecticut. My Father Henry John Butler was born in New Haven/East Haven Ct in 1915. His father, my Grandfather, who I never unfortunately met, was Henry Vincent Butler who was also born in New Haven Ct in 1886. H.V. Butlers father Richard F Butler was born in NY, (still trying to pinpoint where) in 1848-1851……
Richards wife Johanna (Casey) Butler was born in County Mayo Ireland in 1858. In an 1860 Census it say’s Richards parents were both born in Ireland, but, of course it doesn’t say WHERE in Ireland and this is where I hit my Butler Brick wall!
When I hit this wall I decided to do the Ancestry DNA test. I was aware of Butler being a name of Norman origination but being so focused on trying to make my G.G. grandfather connection I never really researched exactly what that meant. After taking the Ancestry “autosomal” DNA test and seeing that there was 20% Scandinavian in my DNA, I decided to take a break from my GG Grandfather and decided to do a “Backwards” search from Theobald le Botiller and his origin.
I got lucky and found all the information on a site called “GENI”
His ancestry going backwards ties the Butlers directly to: William the Conqueror, William Longsword (Rollo the Viking and 1st Duke of Normandys son) and obviously Rollo Ragnvaldsson, 1st Duke of Normandy and former Viking Warlord.
If there is anyway I can help you or if you think there is anyway that you can be helpful to me please feel free anytime to email me at … or if you just want to say hi feel free……. Good Luck….. Mike B.
Since one can normally not rely on hereditary surnames in the Nordic countries, matching and Y-DNA genealogy can not be based on having names in common.
George Butler the fireman from Watertown was my great grandfather. So I guess that would make your wife my cousin. My grandmother was his daughter Emily. My mother Ruth was her daughter. Mom grew up in Watertown and went to Watertown High School. I have an album my great grandmother gave my mother with pictures of her self living on Myrtle St. Pictures of George on his horse drawn fire truck and the steam wagon. He also drove an ice truck in Watertown and he was a member of the chambers of commerce. I’ll have to dig it out the pictures and see if I can match pictures with any of the relatives. My great grandmother wrote the names on the pictures. I have two tin pictures not sure who they are yet. Your blog has been very helpful. My sister and I are going to Watertown tomorrow to the library and cemeteries to fill in the blanks. My mom use to bring me to both the Calvery in Waltham and to two cemeteries in Watertown. I have a pretty good idea where the family plot is. Oh by the way I’m not far from Stoughton , Ma.
George Butler I also my great grandfather, I live in Newhaven area but grew up in Massachusetts my parents were born in Watertown and my mothers father Paul Butler was George’s son
Louie
Hi Cheryl! If you happen to get this message, I am a relative here as well trying to decipher the Butler ancestry. My great-great grandfather is the brother of your great grandfather, George. I would love to hear more about what you know about the family. We do not have a solid link past these two brothers and knowing anything additional is something my aunt and I are currently on a mission to explore. We’ve walked Calvary and one in Watertown looking for family – have found George and Mary’s – but would love to know where others are too.
Looking forward to my DNA results.
I’m a Butler living near the Kilkenny/Laois border area.
Hi James, that is great,
I would be interested in hearing about your results.
Joel Hartley
I’m early in my research however I am a rare case based on endless hours on the internet that falls under the RM269 haplo (R1b). I cannot verify anyone before my grandfather so my research is actually to find out if we are Irish Butlers or just Irish. L21-DF23 (most likely m222-). Depending on where you look this could be listed as Norman descent. There are matches from France who many were Huguenots. At this point I just don’t know and would like to link up with Butler researchers. Online a spreadsheet shows “Butlers of Ormond” as RM269 however this is always very general from my research. My Hudson line is supposed to descend from Hutchinson which is also very generic at RM269 on the Family DNA classic chart. To me this tends to mean “we are just not sure”. Appreciate all of your research!
Hi Lee,
Have you tested your YDNA at FTDNA? If you have done that and join a R1b group, the administrator of your group should be able to place what group you should be in.
Joel
Hi Lee. New to this. Trying to find if I’m descended from Irish Butlers. D n a. Rib 269, L21. Would be great if someone somewhere could give a correct answer.
Kind regards
Jimmy Butler in Scotland
I am stymied my brick wall my gg grandfather William Butler a soldier in the peninsular war born in Scotland 1793 can’t find his parents army papers do not list parents name. Wonder if us Butler’s originate in Ireland? I’m RB1 R269.
Kind regards
Jimmy Butler
Is it possible that William Butler and Judith Slattery were Michael Butlers parents (1800)?
Hi Joel I think you and I figured out that I go down the other side of your wife’s tree. Henry Stephan butler was my great grandfather. He is buried in Caldwell, Ohio. But I have found some family buried in Cincinnati Ohio that I have found that are from Ireland