More on Mayflower White YDNA

In my previous Blog on Mayflower White YDNA, I was surprised to find out that my friend’s YDNA test supported his direct descent from William White of the Mayflower. My friend always believed that he was descended from William White, but most recent genealogical scholarship seemed to put that into doubt due to an illegitimacy in his White line in early Plymouth Colony hisory. In this Blog I would like to see if I could find out any more about my friend’s Mayflower YDNA. He took the 37 STR test which is what I recommended. I had recommended that as it would have been enough to show that he didn’t match other Mayflower Whites. As it turned out, his test showed that he matched almost all Whites and one White who had a proven ancestry back to William White of the Mayflower.

Predicting the Mayflower White YDNA Haplogroup

The easiest way to predict the Mayflower White YDNA Haplogroup would be to join the R1b – All Subclades FTDNA YDNA Project and have them figure it out. I joined my friend to this group, but it is a large group, so difficult to figure out on my own where he would belong based on his limited test. My friend is R-M269 which is one of the most popular Haplogroups for Northwestern Europeans – sometimes referred to as Northern Atlantic Europeans. I joined my friend to the R1b – All Subclades Group, but it could be a while before his is put in a more specific Haplogroup. Here is the tip of the iceburg view for R1b:

M269 is near the top of this tree in the pink or red area. My own Hartley YDNA is somewhere on the bottom left in the green area under L21. I am also under L513 which has its own group and two page tree. When I say this is a large group, there are over 26,000 members. That means that to download the results takes a long time. The results go out to 111 STRs, so that means about 3 million bits of information.

One cut is whether my friend is L21 or U106, or actually P312 or U106. According to ISOGG:

Here is what my friend has for DYS390:

That looks like R-P312 so far.

Hmm, split decision.

CDYa is 37, so that favors U106. The difference between P312 and U106 is that P312 is believed to be an older YDNA from Great Britain and U102 would be from the Anglo Saxons who were originally from Germany. The name England comes from Anglo. While Britain refects the earlier P312 people. Here is a map showing where the Britons and Saxons were around the year 600:

Here is some more information:

Of the three markers, it appears that DYS390 is the most important and that would more likely put my White friend in R-P312.

YSEQ Predictor

I tried this predictor:

I downloaded the White YDN37 STRs and put them here and got these results:

This seems to be getting somewhere. My Mayflower White desendant friend is pretty sure to be R1b-DF49. The YSEQ site also has this map:

The good news is that there are fewer than 1,000 members in the DF49 FTDNA Haplogroup Project:

I was able to find DF49 on the ‘iceburg’ tree above. Here is a closeup of the L21 section of that tree:

My Hartley YDNA is under L513 in the bottom left. That is a pretty big group which has two pages of trees now. My White friend appears to be under DF49 which is under Z3+589. If this is right, that puts White under the older British people (vs the newer Anglo Saxons).

Dating Mayflower STRs

Dating these STRs is not a precise science. In the YSEQ map above DF49 is shown at 2500 BC. in the green tree above, its predecessor L21 is shown at 2300 BC, but that is in the ball park. The point is that the M269 which is what my Mayflower friend and his proven match show are actually DF49. That brings them from about 4500 BC to around 2500 BC:

That’s an improvement of about 2,000 years.

Here is some further branching for DF49:

Mayflower White is DF49 > M222?

Based on the YSEQ Haplogroup Predictor, Mayflower White is DF49. I found this at mayflowerdna.org:

From this aricle, a different predictor was used (the Nevgen.org R1b clade predictor). This Predictor came up with the M222 which is five SNPs under DF49. I don’t necessarily agree with the stated view above that the White family came from Ireland and Scotland. I don’t think that conclusion is supported by the YDNA testing. That article had this footnote which I could not find:

This article probably refers to the person at the Mayflower YDNA FTDNA Project who is listed as a proven Mayflower descendant.

M222

FTDNA also has an M222 Haplogroup Project:

This group is larger than its parent DF49. I like trees and the one they have at the M222 Project Page:

This brings us into Roman times (100 BC). However, there is some confusion on the dating. This branching is determined by BigY testing which has not been done yet for the Mayflower White families. Not all branches are created equal. There are six branches. The most popular is S658 on the right. This is good news as it brings the Mayflower Whites from 4500 BC to 100 BC, an improvement of about 4500 years. The tree above is also called a tip of the iceburg chart as not all the branches are shown.

M222 and STRs

The “About Us” Page for the FTDNA M222 Project says this:

THE MODAL STR VALUES THAT COLLECTIVELY INDICATE R-M222 STATUS

DYS390 = 25
DYS385b = 13
DYS392 = 14
DYS448 = 18
DYS449 = 30
DYS464 = 15-16-16-17
DYS456 = 17
DYS607 = 16
DYS413 = 21-23
DYS534 = 16
DYS481 = 25
DYS714 = 24

In some to most cases the first three STRs in the list above are adequate to establish possible membership in this group. If you have at least two of those three values and differ by only one at the mismatching marker, you may (though not certainly) a member of the R-M222 Haplogroup. A SNP test for the R-M222 marker could establish firmly.  If you are uncertain about whether you belong to Haplogroup R-M222, please contact a project administrator for advice.

My friend Gary has:

  • DYS390 = 24
  • DYS385b = 13
  • DYS392 = 15

This is interesting because Gary has only one out of three of the STRs that are supposed to define M222. Further:

  • DYS448 = 18
  • DYS449 = 30
  • DYS464 = 16-16-16-17
    DYS456 = 17
    DYS607 = 15

I bolded the values where Gary matches what would be expected of someone with M222. The additional STRs must be in the 67 STR test.

I added this kit to the M222 FTDNA Project:

The administroators think that my friend is M222 but would like him to take the BigY test to be sure and place him in the appropriate subgroup.

The White Family FTDNA YDNA Project

I added Gary to this group:

Gary is on the bottom line. He has no colored results which means he has no variations from the mode. This was discussed also in my previous Blog. The other confirmed Mayflower descendant has not joined the White Family FTDNA Project, so his results do not show there. Here is the caption for this small group of Whites:

It appears that these two other White testers with roots in Vermont may also go back to William White of the Mayflower.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Based on the YSEQ Haplogroup Predictor, my Mayflower White descendant is in the Haplogroup of DF49
  • This group is about 4500 years old and represents the older Britannic inhabitants of the present-day United Kingdom
  • I found one web site which linked the William White Line to M222 which is the largest group under DF49.
  • Based on my friend’s close STR match with a proven William White Mayflower descendant, that proven descendant must also be M222.
  • If these two were to do additional YDNA testing – especially the BigY 700 test, they would likely get their YDNA Haplogroup into the genealogical timeframe.

Checking the New Online Mayflower Descendants Database for My Mayflower Ancestors

In at least one of my previous Blogs, I have looked at the Mayflower Database that Familysearch has. These previous Blogs mostly have to do with my Mayflower Descendants Application through William White.

William White

My previous look at William White in the Mayflower database brought me down to my father’s Aunt Annie Louisa Hartley:

That lead me to believe that one of their offspring had applied for the Mayflower Descendants. It also lead me to believe that they had applied under William White, because the Mayflower database lead down to them from William White. I don’t know if I assumed correctly. My thought today was to check on my other Mayflower ancestors and to see where their descencants lead.

Governor William Bradford

This ancestor is one of great interest to me. He was an ancestor of Hannah Thomas Bradford and Harvey Bradfor above. The reason I didn’t apply for membership under Bradford was that the trail back from Harvey Bradford and records were not as available. Here are Harvey’s Bradford ancestors based on my Ancestry Tree:

Governor Bradford was Harvey’s 4th great-grandfather. Here is the Mayflower database:

I don’t have all the children of the William Bradford in the arrow showing below:

However, I follow down from Josiah to Samuel Bradford. From there I get back to Hartley and Snell:

James Hartley and Annie Louisa Snell were my great-grandparents. That gets back to the same couple I had descending from William White:

I don’t know if that means that someone in the Gurney family applied under Bradford as well as White or that the Mayflower Society makes their own connections. I assume that it is the former. Apparently my more distant Snell relative applied for the Mayflower Society under William Bradford:

Actually, when I take the family down from William White through Harvey Bradford, I get the same image as above, so the database is likely showing all those who applied and who descend from Harvey Bradford.

Elder William Brewster

I descend from Brewster two different ways. The first way gets me back to Bradford fairly quickly.  The second takes a longer route:

Here I started with Love Brewster, the son of William Brewster on the right side of the image above. That route only goes through one Bradford – Sarah.

Interestingly, the Mayflower database has a dead end at Rebecca Bartlett:

It also has her born a different date and married to a different person than I have in my tree. So perhaps my tree is wrong.

Checking My Tree

I’ll start with Churchill and Barnes and go back:

Page 182 of the silver Mayflower Families on Bradford has Hannah Barns born 1717 married to Stephen Churchill born also 1717. So far so good. Page 50 of the same book has Sarah Bradford born about 1686 married to Jonathan Barnes born 1684. At this Point it would make sense to switch to the silver Mayflower Book on Brewster. Page 354 has Sarah Bradford born before 18 December 1686 and married to Jonathan Barnes.

Reading up more on Rebecca Barlett on Page 348 of the silver Mayflower Brewster Book, I see that Rebecaa Bartlett married first William Bradford, second Robert Stanford and third Caleb Samson.

When I click on Rebecca Bartlett in the Mayflower database, I get this:

This shows her three marriages, but the database tree shows a dead end at Rebecca Bartlett. I am not sure how to interpret this. I assume that no one has applied for membership to the Mayflower Society based on Brewster through descendants of Rebecca Bartlett. However, I am glad to know that my tree is correct. Or, this may be a glitch in the Mayflower database.

When I click on the hyperlink for Husband William Bradford above, I get this:

This shows a disconnect from my tree. I have that in the first column, there should be a Lucy Chuchill born 1767. She should be at the top of the list in the first column. Again, I don’t know how to interpret the database. When I choose Harvey Bradford in the Mayflower database, I draw another blank at the point of Lucy Churchill:

This again makes me think that no one has applied to the Mayflower Society by this route of Brewster to Lucy Churchill. That being the case, the Society had no reason to check into the parentage of Lucy Churchill.

Francis Cooke

As far as I know, I only descend from Francis Cooke in one way. My Hathaway ancestors have a Cooke as their ancestor. Like my Mayflower White ancestry, my Cooke ancestry is through Harvey Bradford’s wife, Wealthy Hathaway:

Francis is the father of John Cooke. I’ll show this in two parts;

Here is the early part of the Mayflower Database version:

I descend from the John Hathaway at the top left. I have an early dead end on the Cooke Line also. The Mayflower Database appears to stop at my ancestor John Hathaway born 1653:

The Mayflower Database shows 11 of John Hathaway’s children by his first wife (not all shown above). The silver Cooke Mayflower book shows that John had 16 children including Arthur Hathaway born in 1690.

Looking at Hathaway in the Mayflower Database from the Bottom Up

Here I am drawing a blank with Joseph Hathaway. Again, my assumption is that no one below the Wealthy Hathawy level has applied to the Mayflower Descendants on the Cooke Line. This view also shows the missing parents of Lucy Churchill that I mentioned above.

Richard Warren

Unlike Francis Cooke, I descend from Richard Warren on about 5 different lines in three different generations. That means that means that depending on the Line, Richard Warren could be 11, 12 or 13 generations away from me.

My most unique Warren Line (that is, with the least other Mayflower ancestors) would be through Joseph Warren. That is the Line where I am only 11 generations from Richard Warren. On my Ancestry tree:

Here is the early part of my tree:

From the Mayflower Database:

Here are two more generations:

 

Then from Josiah Bradford, we get down to Harvey Bradford:

One interesting thing here is that there are three Bradford lines that carry down: Stephen Churchill, Ellen and Harvey Bradford. I assume these three lines have members in the Mayflower Society. However, when there are mulitple lines of descent, I’m not sure on which lines the descendants got their approval to join the Mayflower Descendants.

My Wife’s Cousin Pat and the Richard Warren Line

I found out that my wife’s 1st cousin is applying to the Mayflower Society under the Richard Warren Line. This is on her paternal side where she is not related to my wife. I came up with this chart to see how I was related to Pat:

I am a 12th cousin, three times an 11th cousin once removed and a 10th cousin twice removed to Pat. Let’s see where Pat’s line is on the Mayflower Database:

For some reason, the database has John Churchill which is not correct. The silver Mayflower Book has John Church. Apparently, this family moved to Little Compton, Rhode Island. After that, Pat’s line goes to Edward and Hannah Church:

Apparently a descendant of Esther Church is in the Mayflower Society, but not other descendants of Hannah as the line appears to stop here for Pat.

One More of My Richard Warren Lines

Now that I have charted my Warren Lines, I want to also check my first one:

This line does not appear to have other obvious Mayflower descendants in it. Actually, just Sarah Bradford.

Here the Database deviates from my tree. This is for the same reason as above where Rebecca Bartlett has multiple husbands. I can choose Rebecca Bartlett and get more information:

The is the same place I got stuck under Brewster above, and the results are the same. Interesting.

Summary and Conclusions

  • It was fun playing around with the Mayflower Database at FamilySearch
  • Where I ran into dead ends, it made me think that there has been no one from that line who has applied for acceptance to the Mayflower Descendants
  • One exception is where a person has more than one spouse. Then clicking on the correct spouse may continue that line
  • Many Mayflower descendants married other Mayflower descendants, so there are a lot of crossovers in the genealogies. That means if the database shows your line descends from a particular Mayflower passenger, that doesn’t necessarily mean that some applied for membership based on that passenger, it may be from a different passenger in the line.
  • It helped for me to chart out my five Richard Warren Lines. My wife’s cousin was curious as to how we are related.

New YDNA Results Seem to Conflict with Mayflower White Genealogy

In my previous Blog on the subject, I wrote about my application to the Mayflower Descendants and problems my friend Gary was having with his application. The problem that Gary was having was that the latest genealogical research showed that his ancestor Martha Doty had a child before the couple married. This was assumed to be John White (junior). That brought into question Gary’s unbroken line to William White of the Mayflower.

Gary’s YDNA

As a result, I suggested that Gary take a YDNA test. He took the 37 STR test, because that would have been enough to confirm the latest genealogical research on the Mayflower White Line. It is much easier for YDNA to confirm that you are not related to someone than it is to tell that you are related. I was surprised by Gary’s results:

Of Gary’s 6 matches, 5 of them had the White surname and one showed proven descent from Wiliam White, Mayflower Passenger. I asked Gary to get in touch with the match with the proven Mayflower descent. Gary did and this is the connection:

This shows that Gary is an 8th cousin twice removed to his YDNA match with proven descent from William White. This also shows that Gary must descend from Wiliam White. That is because Gary’s weak connection was the second John after Samuel White. If Gary’s YDNA match descended from this second John, then it could be that they were both from an illegitimate John. However, this suggests that John Sr fathered John Jr and perhaps later married Martha Doty.

Gary’s TIP Report with Mayflower White Descendant YDNA Match

This TIP Report at FTDNA takes into account the various results of the STR testing. These STRs can mutate on a relative basis very slowly or quickly. The differences can be off by a factor of about 1,000, so it is very important to take this information into consideration:

Here are the results. On the proven Mayflower Line, there are 9 generations to Resolved White. Gary has 11 generations going back to Resolved, his YDNA match’s common ancestor with Gary. From the above chart, that should be between about 92% and 96% accurate.

Looking at the Individual STRs

Here are the STR results at the Mayflower FTDNA YDNA Project page:

Gary’s results are not yet posted there. The reader will have to click on the image to be able to see the numbers. What are we looking at? There are four testers. The most important one is the first who is Gary’s YDNA match with proven connection to William White. The first two testers did a 67 STR test. The second two took at 37 STR test, so I did not continue further than the 37 STR results. The first three rows after the yellow row give the minimum, maximum and mode of the STR values. The Mode is most important as that is generally assumed to be the oldest result. The thinkng is that the mutations are newer and those shared by the most testers are the ancestral results.

The last line is a bit confusing as this is for a Donovan and the results do not match well at all. The colored numbers on the chart are variations from the Mode. I would have left Donovan off the list.

Here is more of a close-up:

Again, the third row is the Mode and I’d like to ignore the last row for Donovan. The proven William White descendant differs from the mode with his first blue 29. He differs also in the compound result of 38-38. This is a fast moving STR. This is sometimes even not used as it is a bit errratic. I’m not sure how the Mode was determined in this case either. What is missing is the heading for these columns:

The reddish STRs are the faster moving STRs. That is taken into account by the TIP Report discussed above. If Gary was part of this Project, it would be easy to compare his results.

Comparing Gary’s YDNA to the Mayflower YDNA Results

Here are Gary’s YDNA 37 STR Results:

We know that Gary differs from Mayflower Descendant by two STRs, but how does he differ from the White Mode? The White Mode can be thought of as the STR signature that William or Resolved White may have had.

Here is the close-up view again:

Gary had 30 in the first column for the STR named DYS449. Here Gary has the same ancestral STR where the other Resolved White descendant had a mutation to 29. That would account for one of Gary’s differences to the proven Mayflower descendant. At the CDY STR, Gary had a value of 37-38. This likely was the second difference to his Mayflower descendant YDNA match. I would have chosen 37-38 for the mode in this case. That would make Gary ancestral for this STR also.

Comparing Gary’s YDNA Results to the Mayflower White Mode

Here is an interesting and fun fact:

Gary matches the mode at every point. Here are the other STRs:

The only place Gary doesn’t match, which is at CDY. I don’t agree with the Mode. In addition, if Gary’s results were added, 37-38 would become the Mode as Gary would tip the scales. The Mode is the value occuring most and Gary would make the 37-38 the only repeat value for the Mayflower match testers for CDY.

Anything Else? A STR Tree

There are three Whites in the Mayflower Project. We can call them White1 (proven), White2 and White3. White3 has the same 37 STR signature as Gary. He is also the other White who only did the 37 STR test. You would think that could mean that White3 is more closely related to Gary than the others. However, STRs are a bit fickle, so it is difficult to know for sure. It would be interesting to know all these White genealogies with YDNA matches to Gary.

If I put the STR results for the four Whites, this is what I get:

The tree is accurate as far as the STR values go, but as we don’t know the genealogy for White2 and White3, it is a bit confusing. This shows that Gary and White3 probably have the ancestral STR signature for William White (and/or Resolved White). White2 has one STR difference from Gary and White3. The proven William White descendant White1 has a 2 STR difference (also called a GD of 2) from what appears to be the Mayflower White signature.

Further Analysis

Gary’s YDNA match brings up an interesting point. There is DNA and there is genealogy. They should be working together, but what happens when they disagree or appear to disagree? Some sort of reconciliation is needed. In Gary’s case, the YDNA match to a known William White Mayflower descendant appears to make Gary a William White descendant also. The reconcilliation could be that John White Senior had child John White Junior with Martha Doty prior to their marriage and that John Senior was the unnamed father. However, that does not explain the fact that John White Jr was left out of his father’s will.

The saying is that DNA does not lie. This is true, but there are different levels of DNA testing and differing interpretations. The best test is the BigY 700 test. If enough people take this test who are related, an accurate YDNA tree can be made. This tree reflects the testers’ genealogy. This test looks for SNPs which are more predictable than STRs. If the proven White descendant and Gary were to take this test, there would be better proof of the common William White descent. However, at the level of testing that has been done, it seems like there is a very good indication that Gary and the proven William White descendant have the common ancestor of Resolved White as shown above.

Gary has submitted his initial application in to the Mayflower Society. Hopefully that will tell him if his genealogy is OK for an application. If they say the genealogy is not good based on more recent research, I would say that we have a case to overturn or modify the recent research with the DNA results.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Gary’s proposed application to the Mayflower Society was fraught with peril due to the Mayflower Silver Book and other sources claiming that his ancestor John White was illegitimate.
  • I proposed a YDNA test for Gary at the 37 STR level to give evidence as to whether or not he really did descend from William White of the Mayflower.
  • The test came back showing that Gary matched 5 out of 6 people with White surnames. The 6th match which was the most distant one was not a match.
  • Gary contacted his YDNA match who had proven ancestry to William White of the Mayflower. The common ancestor between Gary and his match was with William’s son Resolved born in 1615.
  • Gary and I ran TIP Reports which showed that a common ancestor between Gary and his proven William White ancestor was over 90% likely.
  • It is unclear whether or not the Mayflower Society would entertain an application from Gary based on the genealogy alone. Gary has a Mayflower Lineage Match request submitted that hopefully will answer that question.
  • Based on Gary’s YDNA testing, he has an excellent case to show that John White Jr was indeed the son of John White Sr.

A Tale of Two Mayflower Descendant Applications

For quite some time I have been of two minds as far as applying to the Mayflower Society. On the one hand, I already know I descend from several travelers on the Mayflower, so why should I pay someone to affirm what I already know is true. On the other hand, my friend Gary was thinking of joining, so that sort of tipped the scale for me. I wrote about Gary’s descent from the Mayflower last about a year ago. As you may guess, Gary is the second application referred to in the title of this Blog.

My Application

From what I read, approval of you being in the Mayflower Society is through the State Association. In my case, that is Massachusetts. The State Society is in Hingham and the National Mayflower Society is in Plymouth. I’ve been to the Plymouth Mayflower Library and bought books there, but I’ve never been to the Hingham Office. I called Hingham and the woman there wanted to know if I was sure of my Mayflower ancestry. I said I was. My White ancestor came to Rochester MA in the late 1600’s and my ancestors have lived there since. Plus, Rochester has tended to have pretty good records.

The woman emailed me an application and reminded me that I needed to send in a check with my application. Here is the relevant part of the application with some blurring of the living people:

I would have cost me $75 more for a Mayflower Lineage Match, so I skipped that step. I didn’t hire a genealogist, but I have my genealogical information at Ancestry and I have my own web site.

What Happens Next?

Here is what I found at the Massachusetts Society of Mayflower Descendants web page:

Application Process

This page describes the procedure for adult members. For Junior Members click here.

If you have identified a lineage from a Mayflower passenger to you, and have some evidence that it is correct, we invite you to proceed with a Preliminary Application Form. To make your application process as efficient as possible, and reduce the potential of unnecessary expense we recommend waiting until you receive your personalized worksheet and instruction guide before obtaining additional documentation.

Your application goes through a process on the journey for you to become a member. The average time for candidates is eleven months, but it can be as short as six from this office’s receipt of your application to your being mailed the acceptance of your membership.

First you obtain your preliminary application form. It can be mailed to you, emailed to you, or downloaded from this website. Fill it out completely and return it with a check for the appropriate amount for the options you have chosen for membership. Don’t forget to sign the application. Please do not submit documentation at this stage.

During the application process, the Historian will return a worksheet that details what is known about your lineage after researching in our library and membership files in the Massachusetts Society, and the General Society. If further primary documentation is needed, there will be bolded comment in the references section of the worksheet. This indicates that you will need to provide more documents to support that claim (of birth, marriage, or death).

This says that to become a member, it takes an average of 11 months. I assume that means that review of my Preliminary Application will be within a month or so. The last paragraph above is interesting. The Historian will send me what is known about my line already. I do have probably over 100 2nd cousins. Maybe one of them has already applied. I like the idea of finding out what research has been done on my line so I don’t have to duplicate the effort.

Once I hear from the Historian:

This is the time when you will personally research any gaps remaining on your application. When you are ready to return your documentation to support the items in bold, you do not need to send in a copy of the worksheet as we will have one here. Legible, unmarked copies of the requested documentation should be submitted via postal mail at this stage of the process. You also have the option of scanning your documents, and sending the digital images as attachments. Please remember to include your name in either a mailing or an email.

The Historian will review all the documents you have supplied. If further documentation is needed, the Historian will email a revised worksheet with the remaining issues highlighted. There may be an explanation of the different steps you can take to solve the problem areas. Please feel free to call or email with any questions you might have (anytime during this process). Just remember that the Historian is only in the office two days a week.

Once all the documentation has been received to the satisfaction of the Historian, you will be mailed a copy of your “final” application form on acid-free paper. At this point you are allowed to jump up and down for a few minutes of course keeping your fingers crossed. Please sign the form in black ink on the first page. Do review the document one last time to make sure there are no typographical errors. If you find one, on a separate piece of paper, (do not write on these final forms other than your signature), write out the correction you feel needs to be made and the Historian will deal with it when your final papers are returned. Include any fees outstanding as noted on the letter accompanying your final application.

When your signed final application is returned, it will be forwarded to the Historian General in Plymouth, Massachusetts, where the application will be reviewed one last time. The Historian General has the final say over what is approved. This review process takes about thirteen to fifteen weeks.

When it is approved and returned to the office, our Historian will mail you a certificate, a membership card, and a copy of your final application as approved by the Historian General. Congratulations! 

I suppose that this is what takes the six to eleven months. Fortunately, I do not live far from the Rochester Town Hall. Also, hopefully the person in charge of the records there will be understanding.

Why I Chose White for My Mayflower Application

I am descended from many of the original Mayflower travelers. My more recent line is Bradford. My great-grandmother’s mother was a Bradford. However, the records are not so good for that line. Many of these early Bradfords lived in Plymouth up to Harvey Bradford. He moved to Wareham, and then apparently to Rochester. My connection is through land records rather than vital records. It is possible that should I join the Mayflower Society, I could submit a Supplemental Application for my Bradford Line for a mere one-time fee of $200.

The records down from White on my line are pretty complete. I even know about where many of these ancestors lived within the Town of Rochester, Massachusetts where I grew up.

Mayflower Database

Here is something I didn’t realize. A lot of the Mayflower Descendant Applications are supposed to be online.

This is a FamilySearch article. I looked up Penelope White and found a tree:

I put a box around Francis Crapo, my ancestor. I don’t know what all the letters and numbers are for. I suppose they are numbers from the Mayflower Society. From there I can get out to Harvey Bradford:

Let’s take this all the way out:

This ends at Ralph Gurney and Annie Hartley. These are people I remember, so that is interesting. Their children were/are my father’s 1st cousins. So I assume that there is someone in the Gurney family who is/was in the Mayflower Society. I called my Gurney 2nd cousin who used to work at Plimouth Plantation, but she did not know of any of her relatives who were members of the Mayflower Society.

Update from the Massachusetts Society of Mayflower Descendants (MSMD)

I received this email today as I was writing this Blog:

We have received your check and application for the William White line, and have entered both in our process. Due to the back-log caused by the quarantine, it is taking a little longer, but you will receive a worksheet from our  State Historian with instructions for the submission of your documentation.

In the meantime, you could gather two COPIES of your birth certificate- long form showing parentage; 2 copies of your marriage certificate [if applicable] and two copies of your spouse’s birth. The General Society also requires these same documents for your parents, and death certificates [if applicable].

We look forward to working with you.

That is something to think about. My mother was born in Philadelphia and married in Pennsylvania. This could be more work than I thought. I suppose my marriage certiicate has to do with if I want to include my children.

Gary’s Application

Gary’s application hit a snag. Even though he is descended from William White, the research since about 1996 has brought this into question. Here are our two White lines:

The John on the left who is on Gary’s line is now thought to be illegitimate. John’s mother was likely Martha Doty. Here is a record from 1690:

Usually someone confronted with fornication had given birth. In this case, as the father was not named, it is assumed that Martha Doty/Doten did not offer that information. Further, it appears that Martha herself was born outside of marriage. According to the April, 1996 edition of The American Genealogist,

That makes me wonder if there were those who were admitted to the Mayflower Descendant Society before 1996 on the John White Line who were later found to not be from the William White Line.

That means that this appears to be Gary’s Mayflower LIne:

Mayflower Records at FamilySearch

Above, I traced a line that was close to mine. Are there Mayflower Lines that are close to Gary’s? First, I’ll check through Gary’s ancestor John White:

This does show that John White born in 1689 was the son of John White and Martha Doty. However, if this was right, John White Sr would have been 20 and Martha 17. Plus, the arguments against this being the case are pretty good. I assume that this was from an old tree before it was discredited. I’ll take this down Gary’s line:

This brings us from right to left over to Phineas born 1785.

Gary’s line goes through Augustus White to Walter White. Walter must be the brother of Edward Nelson White where the tree ends. These trees end at 1910, so it makes sense that the tree ends with Edward White born in 1891.

I could try Martha Doty, but that line would end at the same place.

Gary’s Doty Line

The Mayflower Database has some blanks when I do a search for Thomas Doty:

I’m not sure what a blank box means. It appears that there are three parts to the Edward Doty Mayflower Families. Thomas would be in Part 2:

It would be interesting to see what this book says. This book came out in 1996 – the same year The American Genealogist article came out that I mention above. The online book at American Ancestors does not show all pages. It starts with page 72 at the fifth generation. Page 73 has one of Gary’s ancestors:

It could be that these books are available at libraries that are not too far away.

Gary’s YDNA

If Gary has an unbroken line to William White from the Mayflower, then a YDNA test should show that. YDNA tests changes on the male line only. That is, father to father to father all the way back.

The Mayflower Society Project is one of Family Tree DNA’s (FTDNA’s) projects:

The White portion of the project is small:

However, the first tester has proven lineage to William White, Mayflower Passenger. It would have been better if this person had taken the BigY test, but they did take the STR test. The STR test is less definitive than the BigY test, but comparison to the combination of the tester’s STRs should be able to prove or disprove relationship to William White. It is easier to prove than to disprove with the STRs. The R-M269 is a very broad Haplogroup. It’s age is from 4,000 to 10,000 years old according to Wikipedia.

Apparently, whoever runs the project felt that the other two Whites beneath the proven White had a close enough match to the proven White to also descend from William White of the Mayflower.

Here are some of the comparisons of White markers:

The third row is the mode of the three testers. Changes from the mode are highlighted in pink or blue.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I don’t foresee any issues with my line to Mayflower William White. I’ll keep plugging away with my birth, marriage and death certificates until I hear further from the Massachusetts Mayflower Historian
  • Gary had a bump in the road with his direct line to William White. He could apply to the Mayflower Society under Doty, but he would rather apply under White
  • Gary has ordered a YDNA test which could prove or disprove that his ancestor John White was the illegitimate son of Martha Doty.

 

Pilgrim 400th Anniversary: My Brewster Ancestors

I have quite a few Pilgrim Ancestors. They tended to marry other Pilgrims. I descend from Elder William Brewster in two different ways. All my Pilgrim ancestors come from my third great grandfather, Harvey Bradford. Harvey was born almost 250 years after Elder William Brewster.

Harvey descends from William Brewster on his father and mother’s side.

Harvey’s Paternal Brewster Connection

Harvery was the youngest son of Samuel Bradford. Unfortunately, I have that Samuel died in 1812, when Harvey was about three years old.

In the above image, we finally see a Brewster. Here is Sarah Brewster who married Benjamin Bartlett. Here is an expansion of her tree:

Sarah must be my 8th great grandmother and Elder William Brewster is my 10th great-grandfather.

Elder William Brewster Born About 1566/67

I’ll start will William to keep the Blog in chronological order. Doncaster looks to be about 12 miles NorthEast of Sheffield. Some of my mother’s ancestors lived in Sheffield in the 1700’s and 1800’s.

Although I have that William was born in Doncaster, I see that the Mayflower Families Book on Brewster has him born in or near Scrooby, Nottinghamshire – to the South of Doncaster:

Scrooby is quite small with a current population of about 329. According to the Mayflower families book, William’s father who was also William Brewster was appointed to the office of Baliff-receiver of Scrooby manor by Archbiship Grindal on 4 january 1575/6. So when William, Jr. was about 9 years old.

Here is a photo of Scrooby Manor:

This home was later occupied by William Brewster (Jr.) who served as did his father as Master of the Royal Post. This house played an important part in formation of Separatists later to be called the Pilgrims. Brewster and Bradford would meet in this house to pursue their religious freedom while in England.

In addition, William was unique in some ways compared to the other Pilgrims:

  • The only Pilgrim known to have had a college education
  • The first Pilgrim to visit Holland
  • The only Pilgrim with Government experience
  • William also held the highest non-pastoral Church position as Elder and very often filled in as preacher to the Pilgrims.

William was a much respected part of the Pilgrims. He nursed the sick to health in the first winter the Pilgrims were in Plymouth – even including William Bradford. At the time of his death, he had over 400 books in collection.

William Brewster Places

I have already mentioned Scrooby where William came from. While at Cambridge University, William was at Peterhouse Hall built in 1290, so already old when William attended.

Here is Peterhouse Hall:

In Leiden, William lived in the “stinksteeg” or stink alley in the Pieterskerk section.

The alley William lived on is now named William Brewstersteeg.

Here is Mr. Brewster’s location in Plymouth:

Isaac Allerton was William’s son-in-law. From Plymouth, William moved to Duxbury where he lived with his son Love. This is the likely location of his house:

The location of the house is known as Elder Brewster Lilacs:

Wililam died on 10 April 1644.

Love Brewster Born about 1614

Love was born in Holland and would have lived near or with his father William most of his life. Love and his brother Wrasling (or Wrestling) were on board the Mayflower accompanying their father. Love’s older brother Jonathan and his two sisters Patience and Fear arrived not too long after.  Jonathan, Patience and Fear were likely born in Scrooby. Love married Sarah Collier in Plymouth on 15 May 1634.

Love had four children probably all born in present-day Duxbury:

  • Sarah born about 1635 – probably named for her mother
  • Nathaniel born about 1637
  • William born about 1645
  • Wrestling

Love died late in 1650. His brother Jonathan wrote a letter to Love’s wife Sarah after the death of Love and gave her some land in Duxbury. Jonathan desired to return to England but never made it back. Based on the number of books in Love’s inventory at the time of his death, he appears to have been educated. This education was likely from his father Elder William Brewster.

Sarah Brewster Born about 1635

Sarah was last in my line of Brewster ancestors and still born in the early 1600’s. She was actually twice my ancestor. Here she is as my 8th great-grandmother on my 3rd great-grandfather Harvey’s paternal side:

Here she is as my 9th great-grandmother on Harvey’s maternal side:

It makes more sense that Sarah would be further back on Harvey’s maternal side as women tended to marry at an earlier age. Sarah grew up in her father Love’s house in Duxbury as noted above. In 1654 or 1655, Sarah married Benjamin Bartlett. He had been married previously to Susannah Jenny. In 1656, Sarah received a gift of land from her Uncle Jonathan Brewster. The birth record and marriage record for Sarah are missing. So wills and land records are used to patch the information together. Benjamin’s mother was Mary Warren also of Mayflower lineage.

Sarah’s husband Benjamin Bartlett was a cooper. Here is an excerpt from werelate.org:

The matchmakers were soon at work again, and in 1655, Benjamin married Sarah Brewster, daughter of Love Brewster and Sarah (Collier) Brewster, and grand-daughter of the spiritual leader of the Plymouth Colony, Elder William Brewster. They moved to Waiting Hill in Duxbury, near the Collier home on North Hill, where the North Hill Country Club now stands. Sarah’s maternal grandfather, William Collier, had been one of the original merchant adventurers who financed the Colony and an assistant governor. Benjamin was soon active in politics and was elected Constable in 1662. He was elected a Selectman in 1666 and was reelected for 14 terms, until 1686. In 1685 he was representative from Duxbury to the General Court of the Colony.

Here is a three mile walk near Waiting Hill that also shows North Hill:

Put this walk on my bucket list. Here is the actual Waitin Hill shown between Routes 3 and 3A:

Before there were so many trees in the area, the story goes that people would wait for ships returning from England on this Hill where they could see the Ocean.


Sarah died before 21 January 1678.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I have three Brewster ancestors who lived in early Plymouth and what is now Duxbury.
  • I have always been interested in Elder William Brewster due to his education and spiritual role and other roles he played in the life of the early colony.
  • These three people are fairly well documented as to where they lived and the lives they lived. I have a special interest in where my ancestors lived.

My Pilgrim Connection to Kim

I have known Kim for quite a while. We both lived in Lexington, Massachusetts at the same time for a while and we both attended the same Church in Acushnet years ago. I recently posted a photo of the Mayflower leaving New Bedford Harbor and she told me that she descended from two of the Pilgrims, so I thought that I would look at that connection in this Blog.

My Cooke Connection with Kim

Kim says she has a connection to Pilgrim Francis Cooke through two of his daughters. Kim also gave me access to her Ancestry tree:

If I count correctly, Francis Cooke is Kim’s 10th great-grandparent. When I check my tree, Francis is also my 10th great-grandparent. I think that means that Kim and I are 11th cousins on this line. Here is my top-down look:

I can tell already that things may get complicated. I descend from John Cooke who married Sarah Warren. Kim tells me she descends from the Warren Pilgrim line also. Kim descends from Mary Cooke who was born about 20 years after John. John was probably born in Leyden and Mary saw her first light in Plymouth. I see in my Mayflower Families Book on the Cooke family that John had a falling out with the Pilgrims on theological issues and ended up in Dartmouth, Massachusetts. This seemed to be an area of Massachusetts where dissenters ended up. Mary appears to have lived in Barnstable for a while where her husband John Thompson served in public office and she died in Middleborough.

The Next Cooke Generation

I’m going about this backwards as genealogy should properly go from the present to the past:

 

My ancestor Sarah Cooke married Arthur Hathaway and probably died in Dartmouth. Kim’s ancestor married Thomas Swift in Weymouth.

Speeding Up the Process

I had some problems getting all the ancestors onto an Excel Spreadsheet, but here is Kim’s side:

Kim’s line went west from New York to Ohio to Oregon. Here is my side:

My ancestors all stayed in the same general area. Plus I’m off a generation from Kim. That means we must be 11th cousins once removed.

Kim’s Richard Warren Connection

Kim’s connection to Richard Warren is through the wife of Thomas Swift above. Her name was Rachel Stockbridge:

On my side, I descend from Joseph Warren in my most direct path, but I also descend from Mary Warren his sister more than once. Then I already mentioned Sarah Warren above:

Here I color coded Kim’s line in orange. Here is the next generation:

My ancestors were all born in Plymouth. Kim’s ancestor Hannah was born in nearby Marshfield. Here is the next generation:

This is taking more work than our Cooke Tree. In the next generation, I add another branch:

 

Actually, I added two branches because I missed Joseph Bartlett back in 1639. Now I can say I’m related 6 ways to Richard Warren. I’ve got to get all of these ancestors down to Hannah Bradford. She is my second great grandmother who has all the Pilgrim ancestors. Next I’ll add what we had from the Cooke analysis above:

On the Warren side, Kim and I are 12th cousins. So we are 1/2 generation further out than on the Cooke line.

Here is the Warren Tree filled out:

This shows I have these relationships to Kim on the Warren line:

  • Once a 10th cousin twice removed
  • Three times an 11th cousin once removed
  • Two times a 12th cousin

Looking for Kim’s Other Cooke Ancestor

Kim told me she descended from two daughters of Francis Cooke. Kim’s other Cooke ancestor was Jane Cooke:

These two were born 22 years apart. I take it that her mom, Hester Mahieu was a robust woman and made it through many difficulties.

A Question of Genealogy

So far, I haven’t looked into any of the genealogy. The Mayflower Families Book on Francis Cooke brings Kim’s Jane Cooke line into question. Kim’s tree has Jacob Mitchell as the daughter of Jane Cooke. The Mayflower Book shows that Jane had Elizabeth, Thomas and Mary with Experience Mitchell. However, at some point, Jane dies and Experience Mitchell marries Mary. Mary’s last name is unknown as is her marriage date and Jane’s death date. So things are quite uncertain. The reason for assigning the last five children to Experience and Mary Mitchell is that there is a gap between Experience’s first three children and the last five.

Here is where Francis Cooke lived:

This is in the center of current day Plymouth. Here is what it looks like today:

The Cooke property was probably near the present-day Court House Museum which is the white building in the photo above.

Here is a map of where Richard Warren lived closer to the Harbor:

Summary

  • I’m related to Kim 6 ways on the Richard Warren Line
  • I’m related to Kim 1 way on the Francis Cooke Pilgrim Line. Kim had another potential Cooke ancestor, but that ancestor has not been verified.
  • I showed where Francis Cooke and Richard Warren lived on Leydon Street
  • Francis Cooke and Richard Warren must have known each other. Also their children who Kim and I descended from must have known each other and probably down to the next generation. At some point I’m sure they lost touch.
  • I’m sure I have these Pilgrim connections going back 400 years with other people that I know who live in the area. Kim was more of a surprise as she did not grow up in Plymouth County.

 

 

 

 

Where Did My Pilgrim White Ancestors Live?

I have already looked at some of the places where my Pilgrim Bradford ancestors lived. The last in my line of Bradfords was Hannah T Bradford who lived in Rochester, Massachusetts where I grew up.

My White Ancestors

I only have half as many White ancestors as my Bradford ancestors:

William White

William White had a bit of a sad start in Plymouth Colony. According to the Mayflower Families:

In 1651 Gov Bradford wrote: “mr. White and his two servants died soon after their landing. His wife married with Mr. Winslow. His 2 sons are married and Resolved hath 5 children; Peregrine 2, all living.”

I can only assume that William died in the harsh New England Winter. I descend from Resolved. Peregrine was the one who was born on the Mayflower. William’s wife Susanna married Edward Winslow in May of 1621, not long after William’s death in February. That means that Edward Winslow would have raised Susanna’s young boys.

Edward Winslow (1595-1655)

After Susanna married Edward Winslow, she had a child who died young, then three boys and a girl. Here is the Winslow Property:

I didn’t realize that there was an early burial place by the water. My understanding was that the Pilgrims lived on board the ship when they first arrived. I assume that William never lived in a dwelling in Plymouth. At any rate, Resolved and his brother Peregrine must have lived at the highest location in early Plymouth.

The Bradford property is where the brick building is now on the left. That means that the Winslow property was probably near or to the right of the white building in the current photo above. The white building in the photo above is now the 1749 Courthouse Museum.

Here is Edward Winslow:

Resolved White

Here is some information from Wikipedia:

This gives a good summary of some of the places that Resolved lived including Plymouth, Scituate, Marshfield, Salem and Barbados for a short time. I haven’t found anything easy about where Resolved lived specifically other than in his early Plymouth days.

Here is where his brother Peregrine lived in Marshfield:

Here is the Winslow Cemetery where Resolved may be buried:

I also highlighted the Winslow House. This is actually the Isaac Winslow House built around 1700. So this is where Resolved perhaps ended up.

Resolved also visited Barbados:

I wonder how long it took to sail to Barbados. Resolved was there in 1657 for the sale of 1/5 of a plantation there that was in the Vassal family. Resolved was married to Judith Vassal. This is interesting due to the fact that a plantation probably involved slaves and Resolved observed this. Perhaps he had a chance to remain in Barbados but did not. At the time Resolved visited Barbados, his children were between the age of about 1 and 15.

Here is the Parish of St Michael in Barbados where the Plantation was:

Here is where Resolved lived in Massachusetts:

Resolved must have had some prior connections with Salem as he married his second wife Abigail Lord there in 1674. I would assume that his wife was a Puritan rather than a Pilgrim (who were called Separatists). This brings up the point that the White family may have not been part of the Pilgrims from Leyden but may have joined the Mayflower in London.

Samuel White Born 1646

Samuel is someone I am interested in. From what I understand he was influential in the beginnings of the Town I grew up in which is Rochester, MA. Samuel was born in Scituate. According to the Scituate Historical Society:

William Vassall of Stepney, Middlesex, England, merchant, age 42, was a passenger on the ship Blessing which arrived in New England by July, 1635. A few of the other passengers were Thomas King, age 21, Jo: Stockbridge, age 27, Ann Stockbridge, age 21 and Sara Tynkler, age 15. Vassall was granted 150 acres on Belle House Neck by the Plymouth Colony Court in 1638 and was one of the founders of the second church (South Scituate); he died at Barbados in 1655. The Lothrop records note that he was the first person to join the Scituate church “in our new meeting house, Nov 28, 1636.” Vassall’s daughter Judith Vassall, age 16, was also a passenger on the Blessing. She married Resolved White and was one of the original members of the second church (South Scituate).

Second Church Scituate is in current day Norwell. Here is a map of the Second Church Cemetery in relation to Norwell, Scituate, Marshfield and the North River:

Here is an excerpt from History of Scituate, Massachusetts: From Its First Settlement to 1831:

If this is accurate, then the places mentioned are in proximity to the Stockbridge Mill Dam shown in red below:

Here is an older map from the 1850’s:

The reddish outline is current-day Norwell. The Yellow is Marshfield. My guess is that Resolved lived in this general area. That means of course, that Samuel, his son, also lived with him here at this time.

Samuel White: From Scituate to Sandwich

According to the Mayflower Families Book,

Samuel White was in Sandwich as early as 20 May 1667 when Maj. Josiah Winslow of Marshfield, half brother of Samuel’s father, deeded “for love and good will to my kinsman Samuel White now of Sandwich.”

There must be a transcription of this deed somewhere:

Here is my attempt at figuring out the first part:

Winslow Gov

Winslow Gov

To all Christian [people?] to whom these ? ? shall come Major Josiah Winslow of that Towne? Of Marshfield in the Collonne of New Plymouth in New England ? ? And know yee that the said Major Josiah Winslow out of his ? Good Affection Love and Good Will unto his Kinsman Samuel White Now of the Towne of Sandwich in the Jurisdiction of New Plymouth in New England aforesaid and for? ? good considerations, him hereunto? Moving? Hath given granted conveyed…. Enfeoffed and confirmed; and by these? ? ? doth? Give grant convaye in feoff and confirmed? Unto the said Samuel White and his heirs for ever all that ? and ? of Land by the hounored Court of Plymouth unto him Granted ?  by Rewards? Of the said Cout  ? ? June? the ninth 1664 and June the Seventh 1665 ?; and is ? of those lands; lying upon the Easterly syde of Narrawakett? River in the Township of Middleberry; between the old and New path that goeth from the wading lake? On the said River towards Lakenham; and is commonly called the Wagons ? ; the said land given as aforesaid is four or five acres? of Meaddow lying upon the said River and West adjoining unto the Said upland, so? ? found, not ? Granted to any other ?; and the ? is an hundred and fifty acres? Most on ? bounded by said River all the northerly ?, buy the old path on the Mortherly syde; by the New Path on the Southerly Syhde; and all the easterly side? By a Marsh? ? oak ? Marsh? ? the old path; and against the Land of George Vaughan being? The Nrothward Bounds; and all the ? ? ? ; by a Marshed? Walnutt? ? standing ? unto the New Path and all the ? and the above mentioned Lands, both upland and meddow; ? with the…

Well, at least I tried. I take it the land was near a river, a new path, and old path and George Vaughan’s land. The Mill River would be a wild guess for the River mentioned:

Josiah Winslow, put another way, was Samuel’s half Uncle and a nice guy to give his nephew land in Sandwich. Here is Josiah:

Any family resemblance? Josiah was about 18 years older than Samuel.

I’m not sure why, but it appears that Resolved and Peregrine signed the deed that gave Samuel White the land in Sandwich. Perhaps this was because Samuel was in Sandwich and the deed could have been signed in Plymouth or Marshfield?

I read something like Signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of Resolved White; Peregrine White. I find it fascinating to see a record of these two. One brother took the trip across the Atlantic as a 5 year old boy. The other boy was the first born of the Pilgrims in the New World.

It is not clear when Resolved moved to Marshfield. Resolved sold land in Scituate in 1662 and was elected surveyor of highways in Marshfield in 1668.

So we see that wherever Samuel White came from, he was living in Sandwich as of 1667 when he had just turned 21 years of age. Back to the Mayflower Silver Book:

He was still in Sandwich 8 June 1671 when he and his wife Rebecca deeded land to Benjamin Church, acknowledged 8 June 1677. In 1679 he was listed as one of the proprietors of Rochester.

This shows the importance of land records. There is no record of Samuel’s marriage to Rebecca, but this shows that Samuel likely married between 1662 and 1671. I assume that Samuel sold the land to become a proprietor of Rochester.

Here is an excerpt from the History ol Mattapoisett and Old Rochester:

That means that Samuel White was one of the first inhabitants and first Selectmen of the Town of Rochester.

In 1684, Samuel would have been about 38 years old.

Where Did Samuel White Live in Rochester?

Samuel drew a home lot at Mattapoisett as opposed to Sippican. However, some of those people never occupied their lots and people were allowed to swap or take other land. According to Mattapoisett and Old Rochester:

That may be as close as I get for now:

That turns out to be less than a mile from where I live.

Penelope White 1687-1738

According to the Mayflower Families, Penelope was born in Rochester. She married Peter Crapo in 1704. The Crapo family lived on the West side of Snipatuit Road. This is perhaps the same house that Peter lived in:

Penelope would have been about 17 years old when she married Peter. Tradition says that as a boy Peter was shipwrecked on the coast of Cape Cod in 1680. If that is true he could have been born about 1670 and been about 17 years older than Penelope – say twice her age at 34 when they married.

Here is a map from the 1850’s showing where some of the Crapo’s lived at that time:

Unfortunately, most of the Crapo properties are miss-spelled. After he was shipwrecked Peter or Pierre lived with a Francis Coombs of Middleborough. At the top of the map above there is a Coombs listed. I believe that this location was an inn or tavern. Perhaps Peter’s son, my ancestor, Francis was named for Francis Coombs. I have read that Peter Crapo got together with other land owners to create a connection between the Mattapoisett River and Snipatuit Pond so the alewives (herring) could spawn in Snipatuit pond. That would have been in the area shown as Randall above. I believe that the Randall house was once a Crapo property also.

My ancestor, Greenwood Hartley bought the Philip Crapo house at the bottom right of the map. Philip was the great-grandson of Penelope White.

Summary

  • My last White ancestor Penelope died about 282 years ago. That is a long time. However, she lived in the same Town that I grew up with. That speaks of a great amount of continuity. She probably lived on the West side of Snipatuit Road on the West side of Snipatuit Pond.
  • Penelope’s father Samuel White was one of the founders of Rochester. He moved to Rochester sometime around 1675. 345 years ago!
  • I descend from Governor Bradford on another line. I hadn’t thought as much about my connection to Governor Josiah Winslow. I don’t descend from Josiah, but he was the half brother of my ancestor Resolved White and was generous to his son Samuel White.  Part of the interest in descending from Josiah is that there is a painting of him and could give some indication of what Resolved looked like. Josiah was Governor of the Plymouth Colony during King Philip’s War. I’m sure that made life difficult for Josiah.
  • I perhaps feel less connected with Resolved White. He was born into some amount of privilege and also married into a wealthy family. He sold his holdings in Barbados. Whether this was from moral or personal reasons is not certain. He lived a long a prosperous life. I suppose I hadn’t thought of Resolved living in Salem which adds some interest to life. That, and his trip or trips to Barbados.
  • Unfortunately, little is known about William White. It is even uncertain as to whether he was born in England or Holland. Many trees have him from Holland, but things I have read lately lead me to believe that he may have been born in England.

 

My Distant Pilgrim Relative Gary

I was surprised to find out while pursuing my genealogy hobby that I was related to my friend Gary. We both descend from William White of the Mayflower. Gary goes all the way with the Whites. My White line drops off at Penelope White who was born in 1687:

Tracing Gary Back to William White

Here is Gary’s dad Donald who passed away in 2015:

A quick search for Donald gave me this tree:

That gets me quickly back to 1873.

However, I’ll make my own tree also.

Donald W White 1930-2015

Donald was born in Acushnet, but lived with his family nearby in New Bedford in 1940:

Donald’s father was listed on the previous page of the Census:

Raymond and family were at 2135 Acushnet Ave:

This is the address of Kentucky Fried Chicken today. Raymond had only completed 3rd grade. His occupation was dairyman.

Raymond White 1906-1978

Apologies to Donald, but I have a long way to get back to William White of the Mayflower. Here is Raymond’s birth record from 1906:

Raymond’s father was Walter and was listed as a farmer.

Here is Raymond’s stone at the Long Plain Cemetery in Acushnet:

Only 300 more years to go.

Walter Augustus White 1873-1956

Augustus was a popular family name. Walter died the year I was born. Walter was also born in Acushnet, but his father who was also a farmer was born in Fairhaven and his mother born in Freetown based on this birth record:

Here is Walter in the 1880 Census with the rest of his family:

Augustus White 1832-1917

Findagrave.com has a lot of information on Augustus:

Augustus White, son of Phineas and Betsey (Walker) White of Livermore Maine was born September 26, 1832, in the house where he has since resided on the Mill Road at the head of White’s Factory Road in this town.

Mr. White comes from Mayflower stock, his ancestor William being one of the passengers of that good ship. The line down is as follows: William WhiteResolved WhiteSamuel White, John, John, William WhiteWilliam WhitePhineas White and Augustus.

The only education Augustus received in his boyhood days was in the district school near his home, but he has been a diligent student all his life and has acquired useful knowledge from much reading and careful observation.

His chief occupation has been the tilling of the farm on which he was born and he now has one of the largest, most productive dairy farms in this country. Assisted by his sons, he makes milk for the New Bedford market, all of which they deliver. Mr. White has served the town 12 years as school committee and been several years surveyor of highways. He was one of the leading men in the erection of the Advent chapel in the Whelden neighborhood, 44 years ago and has been a deacon of the society and superintendent of the Sabbath school during those years. Mr. White has always been a man of industry and push and now at 75 years of age, is remarkably vigorous in body and mind.

He married June 7, 1869, Angeline M. White the daughter of Merchant and Melora A. White.

Now I’m getting somewhere with this excerpt from the History of Acushnet. Gary and I have the common ancestors of Samuel White which I would have suspected. That is where Gary’s family and my family went their separate ways:

My quick version, if I got it right, is that Gary and I are 9th cousins once removed:

Another Look at My Hartley Tree

The first time I didn’t notice Gary in my tree. Now I see that he is there:

Ancestry shows as 9th cousins:

Apparently we are more closely related than I realized through John Jenkins. Who knew?

That means that John Jenkins’ granddaughter Mercy married John White and had Thomas White who had Merchant White. Then there was another Merchant white who had Angeline White who married Augustus White. It gets confusing when White marries White. The interesting thing is the Jenkins family was from Barnstable on Cape Cod originally. Who know? Perhaps Gary and I are related other ways also.

Who Was John Jenkins 1609-1685?

John Jenkins bought land in Plymouth in 1640:

Here is some more I found out about John in the Great Migration Project:

 

Above are Mary Jenkins who I descend from and Thomas Jenkins who Gary descends from.

That’s quite a bit about John Jenkins.

Back to the White Tree

Here is where Mary Jenkins came in on Gary’s line:

Also Augustus White married his third cousin Angeline White.

John White Born About 1689

Here is an interesting item that surprised me about John White the son of John White. According to the Mayflower Families Book:

Son John is apparently an illegitimate child by Martha Doty (See Plymouth Co Ct Recs 1:205). This may explain why he is not named in John’s will even though he was alive and living in Rochester when the will was written.

However, there is a much more complicated lengthy discussion on Rootsweb not all of which I can easily follow:

I think the upshot of the above discussion is that the author believes that Martha Doty had a child John White out of wedlock but that the father was John White.

DNA Testing

Some Mayflower White descendants have been tested, so it may be possible to settle the issue through YDNA testing. YDNA tests the DNA from father to son to son. There is a Mayflower YDNA Project that has three Whites in the group. They have tested markers called STRs:

I didn’t show all the results. The first two testers have tested 67 STRs and the last person tested 37 STRs. One study reported that for the 67 STR test, one STR should change, on average, every 3.5 generations. So that means that for a common ancestor such as William White of the Mayflower, some changes would be expected. So if Gary were to have his YDNA tested and the STR results were consistent with other William White descendants, it should prove that John White of 1689 was the son of John White of 1669. It would be even easier to tell if Gary did not match the haplotype of Mayflower passenger William White.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I ran into a few surprises while looking at Gary’s Mayflower lineage and how he matches with my lineage
  • The first was that Gary and I are more closely related on the Jenkins Line. I looked into some information about John Jenkins who was born about 1609.
  • The second surprise was that there was some question about Gary’s Mayflower lineage on the White Line. That is because Gary’s ancestor Martha Dotey was brought up on charges of fornication. Martha confessed to the charge though apparently no father was named. This brings into question whether her first son John was the son of her later husband John White.
  • This issue could be cleared up if Gary took a YDNA test.

 

 

Where Did My William Bradford Ancestors Live?

As I have mentioned in a previous Blog, the 400th anniversary of the Pilgrims landing in Plymouth will soon be upon us. As I update this Blog it is now upon us. As a result, I’m struck that I’ve had ancestors living in Plymouth County where I live for the last 400 years. I have written a few Blogs on where my Bradford ancestors lived. My previous one was on Hannah T Bradford born 1838.

William Bradford Born Before December 1686

This William Bradford was the last William Bradford in my line leading down from Governor Bradford. His line of descent is from his great-grandfather Governor William Bradford to his grandfather Major William Bradford to his father William who married Rebecca Bartlett.

 

Here is William going back from Hannah Bradford:

Hannah was my 2nd great-grandmother. That makes William my 6th great-grandfather. I assume that William owned land and it is possible that I may be able to trace that land to a current location. According to my Mayflower Families book, William was probably born in Plymouth. He married in Plymouth and he died in Kingston. As William had three more William’s in a row to get back to Governor Bradford, the genealogy can be a little confusing.

One other way to identify these William’s is by their spouses. Unfortunately, I cut off the last wife who was Elizabeth Finney. I also cut off the wife of the William Bradford who was born in 1654. This was Rebecca Bartlett.

William’s Father Dies When William Is Young

Here is more of the story:

William was one of three children and he was the only boy. His father William died when William was only 1 or 2. None of the dates for the children are sure. Alice’s birth is from another book. William was born before December 1686 and Sarah’s birth year is based on her death record. The elder William died in a cart accident.

William Bradford: From Plymouth to Kingston

Here is William’s wife and children:

The first five children were born in Plymouth. That is up to my ancestor Josiah born in 1724. The last three children were born in 1726 or after. That would put William’s move to Kingston at about 1725. Or did the boundaries change? I note that Kingston was incorporated in 1726.

William First Mentioned in a Deed Dated 1687

When William was still a toddler, he was mentioned in a deed by his grandfather William Bradford (born 1624). According to the Mayflower Families Book:

On 23 April 1697 William Bradford in consideration of the natural love he bore for his grandchild William Bradford, only son of his son William Bradford deceased, gives to his grandson one parcel of upland on which his son had built his house “Given unto me from my father William Bradford Esqr”

So it seems this deed mentions four generations of William Bradford’s. This also indirectly mentions where William’s father built his house.

William’s Grandfather Major William Bradford Born 1624

It is usually best to go from the more recent to the less recent in genealogical research. However, in this case, Major William Bradford and his father Governor William Bradford are so famous, that a lot is known about them. For example, Major Bradford’s house is still around, so that will give us a foothold. I have this representation on my web site:

Here is a location on a current map:

Whose house is it?

I may have been wrong. As I look at the website, it appears that the house belonged to Major John Bradford son of Major William Bradford.

Looks like I have it wrong on my web site, so I’ll have to fix that. So it pays to look into these things. Major John Bradford was the brother of the William Bradford who died in a cart accident.

Looking for Where Governor Bradford Born 1589 Lived

I’ll start at the beginning. Here is where Governor Bradford lived in Plymouth:

Hey, someone put a furniture store on Governor Bradford’s property:

I have this rendition on my web site:

I’m not sure how accurate this rendition is, but it does appear to show the church next door. Records say that Bradford held Town meetings at his house. Here is another angle:

Burial hill is to the left in this photo. Governor Bradford lived where the brick building is. However, he also had farm land in present day Kingston. His wife was Alice (Carpenter) Southworth.

In a History of Kingston Massachusetts By Rev. Josiah Peckham, 1867:

For a time Gov. Bradford had his residence in Stoney Brook, near the dwelling of the late Francis Drew. The cellar of his house is still visible. His son, Deputy Gov. Bradford, lived, and died upon the same spot. A “High-Top Sweeting,” the last tree of the orchard, set out by the son, is still standing by the lane leading to Dea. Foster’s. Mr. Henry Colman speaks of it as “planted in 1669, and as bearing in 1838, thirty bushels of good fruit.” If this account of its age is true, it bids fair soon to enter upon its third century. Joseph Bradford, another son of the Governor, settled a little south-east of the Landing. 

Here is an old map of Kingston:

There is a Bradford shown to the North of Stony Brook. There is another S Bradford shown and highlighted to the South or SouthEast of Stony Brook. Today’s Stony Brook looks to be Halls Brook:

According to the Will of Governor Bradford dated 1657:

I have Desposed to John and Willam alreddy their  proportions of land which they are possesssed of;

Major William Bradford Born 1624

Here is an excerpt from an 1850 article on the Bradford Family:

This account appears to differ with the account above concerning where Deputy General William Bradford lived. Or perhaps he lived both places at different times. Here is a portion of the 1820-1830 map of Kingston South of the Jones River showing three Bradford locations:

Another Kingston Clue  in the Willett House

According to the Kingston Historical Commission:

Willett House update, 27 Wapping Road. Jack provided a historical overview, noting the house was likely built in the 1630s, perhaps in 1638, and describes it as having the best provenance of any house in town. Willett, who sold it to Governor William Bradford in the 1650s, came over on the second Mayflower voyage in 1629.

Based on further Commission notes, this house is in private ownership. This excerpt is from the Massachusetts Historical Commission:

The ownership history has been thoroughly researched and indicates the (house and?) land was sold to Governor William Bradford in 1653. It remained in the Bradford family when it was willed to his son, Major William Bradford, who built the “Bradford House” on Landing Road, and then to Samuel and Gershom Bradford. In 1747, the land was sold to Reverend William Rand and later to John Faunce, in whose family it remained for quite some time. From December 1936 to July 1937, a Historic American Buildings Survey team recorded the site and listed the owner as George Higgins. Shortly thereafter, a Mrs. Peabody owned the property and it was under her ownership that the house underwent a restoration by Strickland & Strickland in 1946. The current owner has not significantly altered the appearance of the house since she bought it and it appears very much as it did following the 1946 restoration.

Here is 27 Wapping Road, Kingston:

This is to the South of Jones River. I’m not sure if the previous reference to Stony Brook is accurate or not.

Here is a photo of the house:

The original house from the 1600’s is the one in the back and the ‘newer’ part is on the front dating from the 1700’s. Here is some more information from the Massachusetts Historical Commission:

The main block of the Willett House, in its current configuration, is a typical early 18th century saltbox. Town records indicating a land grant to Capt. Thomas Willett in 1639, including forty acres of “upland and meadow” and seven acres “on which to build his house,” have served as the basis for dating the rear ell. In The Story of the Thomas Willett House, Gordon Massingham of the Kingston Historical Commission assumed that the ell was built around 1640 and it apparently served as a model for a precise, although somewhat larger replica built at Plymoth Plantation in 1994. HABS field notes suggested a slightly later 1653 date, apparently based on town histories published in 1884 and 1920. Abbott Lowell Cummings visited the house in 1996 and, according to the owner, stated that the rear ell did show evidence of 17th century construction (based in part on sheathing exposed at the time) and that the saltbox was probably built around 1700.

It helps to have famous ancestors who have been well-researched. On the 1820-1830 Kingston Map, the house appears to be labelled as belonging to the Widow Faunce:

Chronology for the Williett House

Governor Bradford buys the Williett house in 1653. It is not clear to me if he lives in it or not. The Massachusetts HIstorical Commission [MHC] says it was willed to his son Major William Bradford. However, Governor Bradford died in 1657. His Will says he already gave land to his two sons prior to the Will. My guess is that if the Governor ever lived in the house it was for a very brief time or only to visit his son. According to the MHC, “It remained in the Bradford family when it was willed to his son, Major William Bradford, who built the “Bradford House” on Landing Road, and then to Samuel and Gershom Bradford. In 1747, the land was sold to Reverend William Rand…” That means tha the Willett house was a Bradford house between 1653 and 1747. 

The Samuel mentioned above, born about 1667, was the son of Major Bradford. Gershom, born 1691 was Samuel’s son. This Gershom was probably the same Gershom who in 1741 was appointed guardian of my ancestor Josiah Bradford (born about 1724) after Josiah’s father William Bradford died in a carting accident. That means that Josiah possibly lived at this location also when he was young.

The Bradford House on Landing Road

Am I going in circles? Above it says that the Willett House was willed to Major William Bradford who built the Bradford House on Landing Road. Wasn’t this the house that was listed as the Major John Bradford Homestead above? Major William Bradford died in 1687. The John Bradford house was built when?

According to Wikipedia:

The Bradford House, also known as the Major John Bradford Homestead, is a historic house at 50 Landing Road in Kingston, Massachusetts. The Jones River Village Historical Society owns the house, and operates it as a historic house museum. The oldest portion of this 2-1/2 story wood frame house was built c. 1714; this was the western portion of the house, including what is now the central chimney. Documentary evidence suggests the building was expanded to its present width c. 1750.

Apparently there is some confusion. So if Major William Bradford died in 1687, he couldn’t have built a house in 1714, unless there was a different house in this area that he built. According to a Major John Bradford Biography at the Jones River Village Historical Society web site:

Maj. Bradford’s home in Kingston, built in 1675, is still standing and open to the public today. According to tradition, the Indians attempted to burn John’s house during King Philip’s War. The Major discovered the fire. He spied an Indian on Abrams Hill waving a blanket and shouting to his fellows, and shot him. But on approach, he could not find the body. After the war, the Indian met Bradford and showed him the scars of his wound.

Based on this earlier date of construction, the house would have been built when John Bradford was 22 years old.

Here is another reference from a 1920 Biography on Governor William Bradford by Albert Hale Plumb that further confuses the issue:

Based on what I have learned so far, I am a little skeptical of the above Biography.

Some History of Kingston

According to Wikipedia:

Originally part of Plymouth, Kingston was first settled by Europeans shortly after the landing of the Pilgrims at Plymouth Rock in 1620. It was settled once more in 1635.[2] During 1675, several bloody battles during King Philip’s War are believed to have occurred within Kingston’s borders and the residence of Governor Bradford, which is now part of Kingston, was raided by Wampanoag warriors.

In 1685, the area was placed within the boundaries of Plymouth County and for a brief time, between 1686 and 1689, the borders of Kingston were within the Dominion of New England.

Kingston was first established as Plymouth’s northern precinct in 1717 upon the creation of First Parish Kingston, now a Unitarian Universalist church in the town’s center.[2] Kingston was incorporated as a distinct town on June 16, 1726, following a tax dispute between the residents of north and south Plymouth, when the parish was known as the upper class portion of Plymouth.

I would question that the residence of Governor Bradford was raided in 1675 as Governor Bradford died in 1657. If this is referring to Lieutenant Governor William Bradford, this would make more sense.

William Bradford Born Before 1654

According to the Mayflower Families he was probably born in Plymouth. But recall the boundaries were different then. This was the William who married Rebecca Bartlett and died when a cart he was driving overturned and killed him. I am hoping there will be some information on him that will clear things up. Here is a representation of my four William Bradford’s who lived in Plymouth as it is easy to get these William’s mixed up:

As the result of William’s untimely death in 1687, there are some records.

John Bradford was the administrator of William’s estate. I assume that this was the Major John Bradford who had the house I showed earlier in the Blog.

John’s job was to see what assets William had and pay off outstanding debts. Then he would see if anything was left over.

If I could read the above, it might give a clue to the kind of work William did. My assumption is that William had some sort of carting business as he died in a carting accident.

Here are the people that William owed:

According to to the book, “William Bradford of the Mayflower”:

On 23 April 1687 William Bradford in consideration of the natural love he bore for his grandchild William Bradford, only son of his son William Bradford deceased, gives to his grandson one parcel of upland on which his son had built his house “Given unto me from my father William Bradford Esqr.” Before acknowledging the deed on 4 Sept 1696, William added a paragraph saying that when his grandson William reached the age of 21, he “shall enjoy the lands without Interruption.” On 29 Oct. 1709 John Bradford, Samuel Bradford, Israel Bradford, Ephraim Bradford, David Bradford, and Hezekiah Bradford all of Plymouth County gave their right in a cedar swamp to their kinsman William Bradford, son of their brother William Bradford deceased. This deed was not acknowledged until 26 Marcy 1747.

What I gather from the above is that the carting William lived in a house that he built on land of his father Major William Bradford. This land was given to the Major by Governor Bradford. My guess is that the Major intended the carting William’s son William to be able to continue to live in the house that his father built. However, it does not seem that the younger William would own the land that the house was on.

From the book, “The Descendants of Elder William Brewster”:

The children of William and Rebecca (Bartlett) Bradford were remembered in the will of [William’s uncle] John Richards of Boston dated 1 April 1694 and proved on 10 May 1694 that mentioned that “the children of William Bradford Fr. of Plymouth were to receive the share fo their grandfather Major William Bradford, which was to be equally divided between them.” The children’s names were not mentioned.

The three children of William Bradford Jr., late of Plymouth, deceased, namely, William, Alice, and Sarah, made choice of their “uncle” Mr. Joseph Bartlett and Mr. Nathaniel Warren to be their guardians on 18 December 1700. Each child would have been over 14 years of age to be allowed to choose their guardian. A bond in the amount of 100 pounds was posted by the guardians “to ye orphaned Children.”

I wonder who Joseph Bartlett and Nathaniel Warren are? Rebecca Bartlett Bradford had an Uncle Joseph Bartlett (1639-1711). This Joseph also had a son Joseph (1665-1703). Nathaniel Warren seems even more obscure. Rebecca’s great-grandfather was Richard Warren. The titles Mr. are important. At the time, Mr. would have indicated a person of status and wealth.

Here is a helpful article from Illinois.edu from the Plymouth Colony Archive Project:

D. Guardianship

Guardian agreements are another type of agreement that I will only briefly mention here. The Court Records demonstrate that by 1660 guardian agreements were more common in the records than service and apprentice agreements. No recorded laws governed these agreements. Guardian agreements were written in a contract form similar to that of a servant’s indenture. Often a child would “pick” one or two adults to serve as their guardian until they were adults. A typical guardian agreement reads as follow: “Att this Court, Hannah Hull made choise of Joseph Holley and Nathaniel Fitsrandall to be her guardians, which was approved by the Court” (PCR 5: 52). In this case it is uncertain as to whether or not this childððs parents are deceased. However, other agreements specifically mention that the child’s father or parents were dead (PCR 5: 124). In some instances guardian agreements explicitly stated what goods the chosen guardian was to provide for the child while others asked that the guardians manage the estates inherited by their new wards (PCR 4:39).

The Oxford English Dictionary defines a guardian as “one who has or is by law entitled to the custody of the person or property (or both) of an infant, idiot, or other person legally incapable of managing his own affairs” (Electronic Text Center: UVA). The Plymouth Court Records indicate that this was how Plymouth residents defined guardians. Guardian agreements thus became a type of social welfare for orphaned children or children who can from dysfunctional parents. We may never know the manner in which guardians dealt with their wards. Did the guardian treat them like their own children, or did they treat their wards like servants? Most likely, the treatment of wards was highly varied. One record from 1659 involved a complaint made against John Williams, of Scittuate, for the “hard vsage of a daughter of John Barker, deceased” (PCR 3:160). The child was removed from William’s house and given to Thomas Bird until the next Court session could look into the case further. In the meantime, Williams was required to pay a fine. The final sentence of the record was particularly intriguing as it revealed a kin relationship between Williams and the daughter of the deceased John Barker. The record stated that “the said Thomas Bird is to appeer att the next Court to giue in what testimony hee can produce to cleare vp the case betwixt the said John Williams and his kinswoman, the said gerle” (ibid.). Here we see that Williams was probably the guardian of Barker’s daughter, and yet he had mistreated her and used her like a servant.

This record concerning the treatment of a ward is on the one extreme. In other cases a ward may have been treated like the guardian’s child. A future project might entail looking at the wills of men whom we know were chosen as guardians. Are the children they were assigned to look after listed in their wills? Are they listed as servants? These are just a few questions which might help us to understand the social roles of both the guardian and the child.

Apprentice, servant, and ward all entered into a common law contract with a master or guardian. These indenture agreements were viewed as unbreakable contracts and were enforced by the Plymouth Court. Any changes in indenture agreements — from the trade of a servant and the withholding of food or clothing to the misdemeanors of a servant — were brought before the Court. The next several sections will explore the manner with which change and divergence in indenture agreements was dealt.

It appears that the children would live with the guardians and would be treated along the range between servant to child. This doesn’t surprise me, as I believe that natural children were aslo treated along the same spectrum between child and servant.

From “William Bradford of the Mayflower”:

John Richards of Boston, merchant, in his will dated 1 April, proved 10 May 1694, named, among others, the children of his late sister Alice the wife of Major William Bradford of Plymouth; Thomas Bradford of Connecticut; Mercy the wife of mr. Steel of Hartford, [Conn.]; Alice the wife of Major James Fritch of Norwich, [Conn.]; Hannah the wife of Joshua Ribpley of Norwich; Melatiah the wife of John Steel of Norwich; the children of Willima Bradford Fr. of Plymouth to receive the share of the grandfather Major William Bradford to be equally divided among the; John Bradford; Samuel Bradford; Mary the wife of William Hunt of Wymouth; Sarah the wife of Mr. Baker of Duxbury; and Elizabethe Adams the daughter of Alice the wife of the late Rev. William Adams of Dedham.

John Richards was Major William Bradford’s brother-in-law.

Two Generations of Bradford Guardianship

The last William Bradford in my line born before 18 December 1686 chose, along with his two sisters to be under the guardianship of “their uncle Mr. Joseph Bartlett and Mr. Nathaniel Warren”. This William died 9 March 1729/30. According to “William Bradford of the Mayflower”,  “On 29 Nov 1736 George Partridge of Duxborough was appointed guardian of Sarah and Jerusha Bradford, over 14, and of Mercy and Josiah, under 14. On 21 May 1741 Gershom Bradford was appointed guardian of Josiah”. Josiah who was my ancestor was born possibly 1724.

Who Was George Partridge?

My assumption is that Josiah went to live with George Partridge in what I assume would be today’s Duxbury between 1736 and 1741. According to a 1915 Partridge genealogy:

Perhaps Josiah didn’t care for being restrained and was able to choose Gershom Bradford as his guardian as of 1741.

Summary and Conclusions

  • For the most part, I did not get very specific with the location of various Bradford ancestors
  • A specific location is known where Governor Bradford’s first dwelling house was in Downtown Plymouth.
  • I also guessed as to where Josiah Bradford lived when he was under the guardianship of Gershom Bradford in Duxbury.
  • In general, for the time period that I looked at, my Bradford ancestors lived to the North of Plmouth mostly in what is now Kingston.
  • The study of where ancestors lived and the lands they owned goes beyond the basic birth, marriage and death records and can be complicated. On the other hand these land records are sometimes better recorded than other records. When people moved, it was often for a reason and adds interest to the family history.

 

 

 

 

 

My Father’s Cousins’ Ancestry Thru-Lines: Part 2 – Bradford

I would like to look at my father’s cousin Joyce’s Bradford Thrulines. Our most recent Bradford ancestor was Hannah T Snell:

Hannah was born in Wareham in 1838 and married Isaiah Snell. This family lived in Rochester, MA where I grew up. The DNA that Joyce shares with these people is half Snell and half Bradford.

Harvey Bradford ThruLines

Harvey was born about 1808 in Plymouth, MA:

Harvey only had two children. Patricia is my second cousin on another line. These relationships are fairly close, so no evealuation is needed.

Samuel Bradford 1755

By the third set of Bradford ThruLines, we are already back to 1755. Harvey was the youngest son of Samuel. Samuel is important as the link between him and Harvey is weak. There is no known birth record for Harvey. Harvey is linked to Samuel through land records.

Robert and Joyce have a 9 cM match. In the expanded view, Ancestry is suggesting I evaluate Robert’s mother and grandfather:

The link between Barbara and her son would be a little difficult to prove. I assume he knew who his mother was. He and his brother are mentioned in an obituary. Barbara is listed as 11 months old in the 1920 Worcester, MA Census:

That is a little at odds with her posted birth of 1917. Here is her birth record:

This also shows that her father was born in Boston:

Oscar Bradford

Someone helped me out by saving this record:

This shows Oscar’s father as Alexander O Bradford. Here is the family on Washington Street, Boston in 1900:

I like how someone did a great job researching this family:

Here is Alexander the father in 1870 in Cambridge:

Too bad all my research isn’t this easy:

Now we have a middle initial and are getting back to Stephen Bradford and Hannah as parents to Alexander.

Here is Alexander W in 1850 in Duxbury:

Stephen Bradford was a cooper. I believe that Stephen’s father Samuel took over his father-in-law Stephen Churchill’s cooper business. So then he likely passed it down to his son Stephen. Here is a record I transcribed:

So easy with all the research others have done. As I mentioned above, Stephen is very important as being the brother of my ancestor Harvey Bradford. Here is some information I already had for Stephen on my own tree:

That confirms the ThruLInes between Joyce and Robert. The genealogy holds together. The DNA adds evidence that nothing got messed up along the way.

I should note that my cousin has a competing ThruLine that traces the lineage up through Harvey Stetson Bradford. I will probably look at that at some time.

Heading Up a Level to Josiah Bradford Born 1724

This is interesting:

Joyce shows 2 DNA matches through William Bradford and 10 DNA matches through an additional Samuel Bradford. That sounds confusing. That implies to me that 10 people got their genealogy wrong or that Joyce matches 10 people that descend from a different Samuel and Ancestry connected the trees in the wrong way (or perhaps a combination of the two).

Starting with William Bradford Born 1749

This looks like the easy part:

This shows that Liz is and Michael are 2nd cousins to each other and that they both match Joyce. Liz and Michael share a common ancestor of Josiah Bradford with Joyce. Ancestry would like me to evaluate these two lines. I’ll start with Liz and create my own tree for her:

Above is the family in Colleton, South Carolina. I’ve got to get them back to Bradford in Massachusetts. Richard’s mom above is supposed to be a Bradford. Here they are in 1880:

According to this Census, both of Amanda’s parents were born in South Carolina. That’s OK, it is still a while to get back to 1724. Here Richard is transcribed as Harven. I suppose for his middle initial.

Amanda’s death certificate is important as it gets us back to Bradford and Plymouth, MA:

That means that the 1880 Census was probably not correct.

Here is the 1850 Census – still in Colleton, S.C.:

So apparently Jesse was the one making the jump from Massachusetts to South Carolina. I wonder where that put the children during the Civil War?

Here is a flowery obituary for Jesse:

Jesse Bradford Born 1790 and Maria

The tree that Liz created has Maria as a Thornton. An Ancestry suggestion has her as Lovell:

I think that I would tend to go with this record, but it doesn’t really matter as I’m trying to find out more about Jesse.

Here is where I have Jesse on my Ancestry Tree:

This is the information for William Bradford born 1749 in Plymouth. William was the brother of Samuel Bradford, my ancestor. The bad news is that there is not a lot of information out there about Jesse. The good news is that the DNA matches give supporting evidence for the trees that we do have.

Michael’s ThruLines

Michael’s tree is not as extensive as Liz’s tree:

The 1910 Census joins Frampton with the Liz’s Wichman family above:

Now, the Other Samuel Descendants on the ThruLines

It turns out that the other descendants, I already know about. They descend either from my great-grandmother Annie Snell Hartley or one generation back. The Mayflower Families, which is one of the best resources for Bradford genealogy, has no birth date for Samuel Bradford. So differences in his birth date would be expected. In either case, he is still the son of Josiah Bradford and Hannah Rider.

ThruLines to William Bradford Born 1686

Now this is going out a ways. But let’s try it:

This shows as two matches for Joyce, but really amounts to one. CH is related more closely through Hannah Bradford. It is just spelled differently in his tree. I’ll try PK’s tree. PK’s tree goes up to Mary Bradford:

I’m not sure if the DNA test goes with the daughter or granddaughter of Prescott. From the ThruLines, it looks like the daughter. This Thru-Line would also support that my line goes up through Harvey to Samuel to Josiah to William Bradford. The ThruLines shows PK as a half 6th cousin. Ancestry doesn’t always get the half relations right, so I’ll check that out also.

I get a bit stuck before 1860 with my own tree:

Here is Charles and his mother in Boston. The father is presumed dead by this time. One tree had this reference:

That same tree has reference to an Averill Family Genealogy Book:

Here is more from the same book:

Here is some more on Daniel Averill from that book:

The section on Daniel mentions no Mary Gardner and no Charles Averill born in Boston. In fact all these children of Daniel are born in New Hampshire. PK’s tree has Charles born in 1845 to a Daniel who was born 1762. That would make Daniel quite old at Charles’ birth. 83? I’ll pull the plug on this ThruLine. There may be a connection, but I don’t see it right now. Another way to look at it is from the top down. William Bradford born 1686 had a son William born 1726, but he died the same year according to the Mayflower Families Through Five Generations.

My Father’s Cousin’s Harvey Stetson Bradford ThruLines

I had mentioned above that my second cousin shows different ThruLines for the same ancestors. I would like to look at this. There are only two Harvey Bradford’s that could be our ancestors. I have one and she has the other. I think mine is right, so I would like to disprove hers.

Here Holly has her line going up through her father Maury to Harvey to Charles Bradford. In the ThruLines I looked at earlier in the Blog, I had this:

That means that they can’t both be right.

My guess in the match between Maury and David is that David’s tree may be right but Holly’s may be wrong. Here is David’s tree in more detail:

For some reason, both trees go through Harvey S Bradford. David’s actual tree stops at Anna Maria Bradford:

Ancestry put the rest together.

A Tale of Two Harvey Bradford’s

Findagrave.com has this information for Harvey Stetson Bradford:

Here is some more on Harvey Stetson Bradford:

Another cousin took this photo:

This is from the Sherman Cemetery in Rochester, MA:

It appears that both these Harvey Bradford’s were born in 1809. Hence the confusion. However, one was buried in Illinois and the other in Rochester, MA.

So I have proven that Harvey Stetson Bradford was not my ancestor. I still don’t know if David above descends from either Harvey. However, as my ancestor only had two children (Henry Clay and Hannah Thomas), I would say that David did not descend from my ancestor Harvey Bradford:

Summary and Conclusions

  • The most important ThruLine I looked at was between Joyce and Robert. They show a DNA match and a common ancestor with Samuel Bradford (born about 1755) who was the father of Stephen on Robert’s side and Harvey on Joyce’s side.
  • It was easy to show the connection from Robert up to Stephen and Samuel based on research that had already been done.
  • I tried to connect Joyce to PK who showed a potential common ancestor in William Bradford born 1686. However, I found too many problems with PK’s tree to make that connection.
  • Finally I looked at Thrulines connecting another of my father’s cousins Maury to David. This showed ancestry to Harvey Stetson Bradford. But I showed that that Harvey Stetson Bradford was not my anctestor. There were two Harvey’s born in 1809. Harvey Stetson Bradford was born in Maine and died in Illinois. My ancestor Harvey (not Stetson) Bradford was Born in Wareham, MA and buried in Rochester, MA.