More On My Butler Brother-In-Law’s BigY 700 17 Private Mutations

My brother-in-law’s BigY 700 test results came in on February 14th this year. One thing that seems strange to me is that he has 17 private variants. This leads me to believe that FTDNA has not yet finished it’s manual review. In my previous Blog, I didn’t have access to my brother-in-law’s results. Now I do.

Private Variants

Normally there should not be any private variants or perhaps one at the most between a father and son. So where did these come from? My guess is that they could be from earlier YDNA branching. Private variants show as position numbers on the Y Chromosome. Here are the first 10 belonging to my brother-in-law:

I’ll check the first position at YBrowse, to see if there is any more information there:

This is interesting, because this appears to be a new, unnamed SNP. Here are my brother-in-law’s test results:

They look like good results. I’m starting to guess now, but perhaps my brother-in-law picked up a new SNP that no one has ever tested for before.

Let’s try the next position:

This looks new also.

12,227,342

This position at least gave me a SNP number:

Here are some more details:

This tells me that this is a named SNP, but it is a new one as of 2020. This SNP was probably named as a result of my brother-in-law’s BigY test.

I’m beginning to see a trend here. Here is Richard’s csv file for that position:

Richard’s test didn’t cover as many YDNA locations as it was an older test. So the position that his son tested for is new.

Here is a spreadsheet for looking at my brother-in-law’s new private variants:

I’m going down the list. The private SNP at 26M was discovered earlier by a different company:

Summary of My Brother-In-Law’s New 17 Private Variants

Notice the last column. That is the one that says that Richard’s test never covered the position or new SNP that his son has. That explains the 17 new private variants.

Spreading the Net Wider to England

The next logical step is to check my brother-in-law’s private variants against the other BigY Butler tester in England.

Now I’m getting somewhere. The question mark means that EB was tested for the position number but that the results were inconclusive. EB was not tested for the first two position numbers, so they remain without a SNP name. I assume this is where my brother-in-law could match his father or theoretically have a new private variant. That means that my brother-in-law could end up with two private variants down from 17.

In a previous Blog, I had predicted that these new SNPs may go in the Block above Batt under I-Y128591 or even above that. This is still a good place for these 15 SNPs.

Going Up a Level To Batt

I can go one level further. This sheds some further light:

The question marks mean that there was not enough information to say that the tester was positive or negative for a mutation at the location. However, the fact that Batt had a possible mutation at every position of my brother-in-law’s private variants suggests that my brother-in-law will end up with zero private mutations. Mystery solved.

Summary and Conclusions

  • A comparison between my brother-in-law and his father showed that my brother-in-law had 17 private variants. However, that was because those 17 locations were not covered in my father-in-law Richard’s BigY test.
  • A comparison between my brother-in-law and his next closest Butler match showed that match had been tested at 15 of those locations, but the results were inconclusive.
  • I then went out another level and found that Batt had been tested at every location of my brother-in-law’s private variants, but the results were inconclusive at all of those locations.
  • It is likely that my brother-in-law’s test results will confirm each questionable test and that he will end up with no private variants.
  • I guessed where the extra 17 SNPs will end up, but I don’t have enough information to be sure that they will be in the I-Y128591 Block or above that.

 

Update on the New Butler Haplogroup

In my previous Blog, I looked at the new Butler Haplogroup. It turned out that these were actually two new haplogroups.

The two new SNPs are both in the I2 Haplogroup. They are I-Y129564 and I-FT241564. Here is what the genealogy looks like on the Richard Butler side.

I’m not sure I did the tree right, as technically, Richard’s son should be below Richard. I just meant to show that they both had the two SNPs shown above.

These two SNPs formed between the time of birth of the common ancestor between Richard and the Butler from England. I don’t know when that common ancestor was born. I’ll say it was 1700 to be conservative. Richard was born in 1932. The means that these two SNPs formed in about 200 to 232 years. As SNPs form on average between 83 and 144 years, this time period makes sense.

English Butler Private SNPs

The English Butler who is I-Y128364 has 2 private variants:

Here they are:

If the English Butler has a close relative who does the BigY test, these two Private Variants would form their YDNA Branch.

13619832

I’ll use YBrowse to find out more about the English Butler’s private variants:

Thiss position number shows up as BY122010

This SNP was discovered when the English Butler did his BigY test in 2018:

15906031

For some reason, this SNP was discovered a year earlier:

I retyped the tree for what is a likely outcome for the English Branch of Butlers:

At the top is the Butler/Whitson ancestor. The Butler tree is on the left. Now I have Richard’s son below Richard. This shows four BigY testers. Notice, sometimes I put an I before the SNP name and sometimes not. Either way is OK. All these are within the I2 Haplogroup. There is a 30,000 year difference between I1 and I2:

The above depiction is from the Eupedia website.

Batt

The Batt Line from I-Y128591 has 5 Private Variants:

I could do the same exercise that I did for the English Butler, but I won’t. If a close relative of Batt were to take a BigY test, that would likely name the 5 SNPs that have formed in the previous 700 years.

My Brother-In-Law’s Private Variants

My Brother-in-law still has apparently about 16 private variants. I haven’t seen them yet, but his father Richard has 0 private variants and the average private variants between father and son is 8.  From Richard’s Non-Matching Variants:

These are Richard’s non-matching variants compared to his son, the Butler living in England and Batt. The fact that both my brother-in-law and EB (English Butler) have BY28891 and BY29432 seems significant. The fact that Richard doesn’t share these SNPs with his son or EB suggests that his son and EB share these SNPs with each other.

Here is Richard’s results for this SNP:

This shows Richard had only one positive read out of about 10 for this SNP. EB, on the other hand, had about 13 good reads:

Let’s take this SNP up a step to Batt:

Batt actually had 9 good reads, but because Richard had a lousy test, it was not originally included. That means that this SNP should be added to the Butler/Whitson Block:

The SNP could even be further upstream, but it is likely where I show. Putting a new SNP in this Block would not increase the distance between Butler and Batt, but would increase the number of years between Butler, Batt/Whitson and the next closest YDNA relative on the tree. These next matches are quite distantly related and have ancestors from Scotland and the Russian Federation:

BY29432

I’ll check this SNP, to see if it follows the same pattern. In this case, Richard has a much better read:

There is a little arrow at the location of the read.

EB has a bit of a wild read:

I say wild because the Genotype is C and the mutation shows as changing first to A and then to G, but mostly to G like Richard’s results.

Next, I’ll check Batt:

This shows some confusion in the test:

Batt’s faded reads were low quality and the mutation apparently also called the genotype came out as T. There were more than 10 reads of C > G. There is also tow more pages of results for Batt:

Above is the last page. The second page had some more faded T’s. This last page has a good read for a C > A which appears to correspond to EB’s C > A reads, though I think EB’s reads were lower quality. Bottom line is that I think that FTDNA should also add this SNP to the Butler/Whitson Block, but I don’t know all of FTDNA’s standards. If they do, my brother-in-law’s results would be the tippng point.

This is the kind of manual review that FTDNA will be doing with my brother-in-law’s new BigY 700 results. This, in addition to looking at his Private Variants.

Looking At the Butler YDNA Project and Ancestry

There are 599 members of the Butler YDNA Project. There are 5 members who mention Wexford in their ancestry:

  • Two Butlers are I1,
  • two are I2 and
  • one is R1b. R1b is traditionally Irish, though more detail would be needed as this could include England or other parts of Europe also.

Richard is not included in the Wexford Butlers, even though his ancestry probably goes back there. I have him in the YDNA Butler Project as having Kilkenny ancestry as that is as far back as I’ve gotten in the genealogy.

Butlers with Kilkenny Ancestry

I also see five Butlers who show Kilkenny Ancestry:

  • One I2 – This is Richard, but he probably will end up being listed as from Wexford.
  • One R1a – R1a could indicate Scandinatvian origin.
  • Three R1b’s – However, two of these have the Fitzpatrick name

That means that, in this unscientific survey, Wexford Butlers are more likely to be I2 or I1 but less likely R1b. Due to the results including Fitzpatricks, the results for KIlkenny seem inconclusive.

All-Ireland YDNA

When I expand the list to Ireland, I get this:

This seems to indicate that the further away from Wexford you get, the more likely it is that your Butler ancestor will be from the R1b group. There is only one R1a which I would associate more with the I1 and I2 Groups. The R1a ancestor is from Glenmore which is interesting as it seems to be in the area where my wife’s Butlers were from:

Glenmore is in the area of Kilkenny that is near Counties Waterford and Wexford.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I looked at the Private Variants for a BigY Butler tester from England. He is the closest BigY match to the two American Butler testers.
  • It is believed that the common Butler ancestor for these three BigY testers is in Wexford. I drew a BigY tree for what would likely happen if the a close relative of the English Butler BigY tester was to also do the BigY test.
  • The next closest BigY tester has the Batt surname, but can trace his ancestry back to England under the Whitson surname.
  • I looked at some non-matching Variants between my brother-in-law, father-in-law, the other Butler Tester and a Batt BigY tester and showed where they may fit in.
  • I looked at the YDNA data for the FTDNA Butler Project. This suggests that the Wexford Butlers are more likely to the I1, I2, or R1a as compared to R1b. R1b is considered a more native Irish YDNA type. I1, I2, and R1b came later in Irish history – perhaps as part of a Norman conquest.
  • I’m still waiting for FTDNA to finish their manual review of my brother-in-law’s Private Variants.

 

 

 

A New Terminal YDNA Subclade for My Wife’s Butler Family

I have been testing my late father-in-law’s YDNA since 2015, so this has been a long journey. Recently my brother-in-law also had his YDNA tested. He went all out and got the BigY-700 test. This was good because once two people who are closely related both have this test done, then it defines the terminal subclade for that specific family.

So, What is the New Subclade?

The new Subclade is:

Here is how it looks in FTDNA’s Block Tree:

Previously my father-in-law, Richard was I-128364. The odd part about this is that the figure still shows 8 Private Variants between Richard and his son. I don’t see any private variants for Richard. That must mean that his son has about 16 private variants as this is an average of the two. My guess is that FTDNA has not updated the Private Variants yet.

SNP Tracker

The SNP Tracker has not yet tracked I-FT241245. However, this is what it now shows for I-Y128364:

This tracks the migration that the Butler family took since the dawn of time. Note that the Roman period is skipped over and this just brings us up to Medieval times. The Roman period must be bound up in the block of 23 SNPs that are listed here under I-Y128591:

I-FT241245 Is Not the Terminal SNP I Was Expecting

David Vance from the Big Y Facebook Page points out that:

By the way this also says that the father and son both share two variants that are unique to their line, FT241245 and Y129564. Those are two separate SNPs that apparently occurred on the father’s line after his most recent common ancestor with the Butler in England. FT241245 is at position 4195963 and Y129564 is at position 20968182.

This surprised me a bit as previously, I thought that Richard would have one SNP. This is based on the fact that Richard previously had one private variant. My guess is that either the manual review is not finished yet, or Richard’s son had a SNP at position 4195963 resulting in and that Richard had that also, though perhaps they weren’t sure before that Richard had it

I have found that YDNA can be full of surprises.

FT241245

I looked at Richard’s CSV file and found this:

This shows that Richard already tested for this SNP but that there was a question. this is shown as a known SNP because this is a new CSV file. I assume that the original file only showed this as a position number.

The FTDNA Y Chromosome Browsing Tool shows this for Richard:

Richard had only two reads for this SNP and several more reads are needed before they are accepted.

This was accepted based on his son being positive for this SNP:

The other question I can’t answer is why they chose this SNP to name the branch and not Y129564.  I might have chosen Y129564 due to the testing problems for Richard of FT241245.

Y129564

Here is how Richard tested for Y129564:

 

Why Do Richard and His Son Have Two Terminal Subclades?

Here is the tree I had before Richard’s son tested:

I-Y128364 appears to represent the Wexford Butlers. At least that is the opinion of the Butler researcher from England. That makes sense because my wife’s ancestor, though he was probably born in Kilkenny, was born near the Wexford border. The George Butler family from Cincinnati who my wife’s family is related to by autosomal DNA was originally from Wexford. Also the English researcher’s family was from Wexford.

Above, the 225 years before present date is important. Here is the new tree:

The English Butler and the American Butlers shared a common ancestor around 225 years ago. This date could be earlier based on known research. However, since that time, the American branch of Butlers has had 225 years or so for new SNPs to form. New SNPs form at about the rate of every 83 to 144 years depending on the coverage of the BigY test taken. So in those 225 years or more, there was time for two SNPs to develop in the American Butler Line. Unfortunately, without further testing, we don’t know which SNP formed first.

This would be a good place to look for additional BigY testers:

Richard had a Great Uncle George born about 1873. This George had 8 sons. We just need to find a surviving male Butler from that line to test. This descendant of George Butler would probably be either I-FT241245, Y129564 or less likely neither. If he was neither, that would mean that the two new SNPs happened only on the line of George’s brother Edward Henry Butler born 1875.

Private Variants

Here is the Block Tree again:

Richard

Richard’s Private Variants do not show. However, he presently has 0 private variants. Before Richard’s son tested, Richard had one private variant. However, we now know that he should have had 2 private variants. One of those private variants had ambiguous results. Those 2 private variants formed I-FT241245 and Y129564.

Richard’s Son

I can only assume that Richard’s son has about 16 Private Variants as Richard has 0 and the average private variants between the two is 8. I have asked Richard’s son for his private variants. I assume that these may be bad readings or false readings or matches with Batt or the England Butler or new SNPs from up the tree. The other issue is that Richard’s son has taken the BigY 700 which has more coverage than the other BigY testers. That means that Richard’s son may have new SNPs that were not previously discovered.

Butler (England)

This Butler has two private variants which is consistent with Richard’s two New SNPs. If this tester finds a close relative to test the BigY, he will likely have his branch named with two new SNPs. If he finds a more distant relative, he may define one out of two of his now private variants.

Batt

Batt has 5 private variants. He shows his ancestry going back to Joseph Whitson in England in 1615. If we say that the SNPs were formed every 144 years for this older BigY test, that gets us back 720 years. That is roughly the year 1300, so quite a while ago. That suggests that the common ancestor between Butler and Whitson was in England at this time. Perhaps one line stayed in England and became Whitson, while another line went to Ireland and became Butler.

Next Steps

  • FTDNA is likely looking at Ken’s private variants. These should get down to one or zero for Ken.
  • We will want to check the SNP Tracker to see if it picks up the new SNPs for Richard’s line. I don’t know if they wait until FTDNA’s manual review is over or not.
  • It would be nice to have additional BigY testers.

 

 

My Butler Brother-In-Law’s New BigY 700 Results Are In

I had been looking for my brother-in-law’s new BigY 700 results. Finally I got a note from a more distant relative Peter in England that Ken’s results were in. Here is the image that Peter shared from his perspective:

The first Richard on the list above is my father-in-law. I manage his results. The second Richard is a more distant relative in a different haplogroup (I-Y128591). I’m not sure why Ken is listed third on Peter’s match list. Peter and Ken have the most Shared Variants. It looks like the list is sorted by Non-Matching Variants. Peter and Ken have more of these because Peter, and the two Richard’s took the BigY 500 test. Ken’s BigY 700 tested for 50 percent more variants than the older BigY 500 test..

Peter’s Non-Matching Variants

From looking at Peter’s list of Non-Matching Variants, I think that I can learn a few things. Non-Matching Variants are a little confusing because they could not only be a variant that Peter has and Ken does not. It could also be a variant that Ken has and that Peter does not have.

15906031 and 13619832

I note that the variants at position numbers 15906031 and 13619832 are common to all three of Peter’s matches. That likely means that Peter has these variants and the other three do not. That means that if Peter has a close relative with the same last name tested, that relative should also have 15906031 and/or 13619832 and that probably one of these two would be Peter’s terminal haplogroup.

20968182

Both Richard and Ken have 20968182. This is likely the position for the variant that will become Richard and Ken’s terminal haplogroup. I can look up this position at YBrowse:

Here is what the position looks like:

My further guess is that Richard and Ken will have the terminal haplogroup of Y129564:

This haplogroup was ‘discovered’ by YFull in 2018. That was when I tested my father-in-law Richard and uploaded the results to YFull. Here are Richard’s results at YFull:

Richard had no Novel SNP’s in the Best quality category. But he did have one in the Acceptable category which is Y129564.

What’s Next?

FTDNA will do a manual review on the results. It could take a while for them to get to the Butler results. However, I don’t see any possible outcome than the one I outlined above. Ken’s father Richard previously had one private variant. Ken matched this variant, which has the position number 20968182. It also has the name Y129564. This should be the new branch for what I would call the American Butlers. That means that Peter should remain in the now older branch of I-Y128364:

I-Y128364 should represent the now older Kilkenny/Wexford Branch of Butlers.

 

2019 Updates on Butler DNA

I recently posted an update on Butler genealogy. Here is an update on Butler DNA. I have found that DNA matches work well to get good genealogical results. For the Butler project, the two main relevant test are YDNA and the autosomal DNA tests. I have discovered new relatives through both the YDNA tests and the autosomal DNA test results.

Butler YDNA and the BigY Test – I-Y128364

The two major YDNA tests are the Big Y and the STR testing. Two Butlers have taken the Big Y test. One is my late father-in-law. The other is Peter from England. This has placed my wife’s Butler family (and Peter’s) on the YDNA tree. That Place is called I-Y128364. This is actually an I2 Group. This is further broken down to I-M223 (or I2-M223). One way to show I-Y128364 is on FTDNA’s Block Tree:

The discovery of I-Y128364 is important as it describes the specific branch of Butlers that Peter, my father-in-law Richard’s family and other related Butlers belong to.

I-M223 was formed about 15,000 years ago. There is more branching that goes on, but this just shows the direct line from I-M223 to I-A427. At that point it shows additional branching. One way to get a rough date for the common ancestor is to take their average number of private variants (shown in the green boxes above) and multiply those by 144 years. This results in a common ancestor for Peter and Richard of about 288 years. Richard was born in the 1930’s, but we’ll use 1940 as a starting date. That would give a rough date of 1650 for a common ancestor between Peter and Richard. The average man has his middle child at age 34, so 288 years turns out to be about 8.5 generations.

Here is a migration map for the I Haplogroup:

The question is how the Butler’s got to Ireland. One possibility is through the Normans. These were Norse men who lived in France and invaded England. Some of those would have ended up in Ireland also. Other routes are possible.

Here is a more detailed look from SNP Tracker:

The Butler ancestors were in Southern Germany from the later Paleolithic to the early Neolithic. The one Bronze Age SNP is shown in the water. I take this to mean that these people could have been in Scandinavia or around the North Sea where the blue dot is. Iron and Roman Ages are missing and then we end up in Ireland in the Medieval period. The Medieval period was from 476 to 1450 AD. So between the blue dot and orange dot above, a lot of time goes by. The light dot in the North Sea represents a tester by the last name of Batt. The common ancestor between Batt and Butler was about 700 years ago.

Butler YDNA and the STR Test

Here is how Peter and Richard match on their STR test:

Peter and Richard match on all but 6 STRs out of the 111 tested. Plus they match on all but 6 STRs on the 412 STRs identified by the BigY results. Here is the TIP Report for Richard and Peter:

Richard and Peter have a 60% chance of having a common ancestor within 8 generations.

Neil – the Newest STR Match

Neil, who has Butler ancestors from Wexford has taken the 37 STR test. His results came back in July 2019. He matches my father-in-law Richard exactly at the 37 STR level. Here is the TIP Report between Neil and Richard:

I put in the report that Richard and Neil did not share an ancestor within the last three generations. The 37 STR test is not as accurate as the 111 STR test, so more variation may be expected in the results. Neil, Richard and Peter are all in the Butler YDNA Project at FTDNA:

Neil’s ancestor is Richard Butler born 1817 in Wexford. Neil and my father-in-law Richard share at value of 32 for a STR called DYS389ii. None of the other Butler testers share this value, so this value likely defines the specific branch of Butlers that Neil and Richard are in. Likewise, Peter and the descendant of Laurence Butler born 1830 Wexford share a value of 23 for a STR called DYS570. That STR likely defines their Butler Branch.

Neil is very likely a closer match to my father-in-law Richard than Peter is. He may also be a family finder match by autosomal DNA. Peter suggests that the older Butler line was from Wexford and branched out from there. It appears that the limited DNA matches would support that also. Based on the closeness of Neil’s DNA test to my wife’s Butler family, renewed effort is being made to make a genealogical connection.

Butler STR Overview

There are 576 members in the FTDNA Butler YDNA Project. These represent most of the Butlers and related families who have had STRs tested. Of those 576, most of the Butlers and associated families are R1b. These are probably what are considered traditionally as the more Celtic or native people to the British Isles. Of those 576, about 49 or 8.5% are I1. According to FTDNA, I1 has a common ancestor of about 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. 25 Butlers or associated families are listed as I2 in the Butler YDNA Project. This represents 4.3% of the people in the Butler YDNA project. Of those 25 I2’s, all but three are I-M223. According to FTDNA, the I-M223 Tree is about 17,400 years old. That means that the Block tree I showed earlier in this Blog represents well over 17,000 years of “Butler” history. Of course, the Butler name was only attached to this history since some time in the last 1,000 years.

How does this compare to Ireland in general? Here is part of a Eupedia.com Chart:

From what I can tell, this represents percentages of Haplogroups. Above, I found that 4.3% of the Butlers were I2. From the above chart, it appears that about 6% of Irish are I2 (adding I2a and I2b). A review of the Butler YDNA Project results shows that the Butler’s in general were from many different Counties in Ireland and had many different Haplotypes. That means that no one Haplotype can be associated with the Butler name. However, different branches of Butlers can be associated with specific haplotypes.

Butler Autosomal DNA

In general, it could be said that the YDNA tests take over at the point that the autosomal DNA tests fade away. What that means is that autosomal DNA matches may be found with this probability:

The hope is that once these matches are found that there would be a genealogical connection or possible connection. Around the point where the autosomal results fade out, say about the 5th cousin level, the YDNA tests are helpful for establishing relationships going back hundreds and thousands of years. With the BigY tests, and closest matches for the STR tests, these results may overlap.

Finding New Butler Relatives Through DNA

I have found new Butler relatives through DNA matches in the following three categories:

  • Relatives who have common Butler ancestors that we already knew about
  • Relatives who have Butler ancestors that we hadn’t known about previously. Right now, the main Butler ancestor that we found out about is George Butler born in Wexford, Ireland and died in Cincinnati. It is clear that he was related to my wife’s ancestor Edward Henry Butler. But we don’t know exactly how. They may have been first cousins.
  • Relatives who have common ancestors with Butlers, but those ancestors perhaps go back beyond the time when there were good records kept – or the connection has not yet been discovered. Therefore, the connection to a comman ancestor may not be clear, but the connection to an area may be guessed at – such as Weford, Ireland. A good example of this category would be with Peter who is a YDNA match, but we don’t know who the exact common ancestor is.

Here are some lines that were discovered by autosomal DNA Matches:

This tree represents two branches that are real branches. Some of the descendants of the Henry Branch on the left match some of the descendants of Michael Butler Branch on the right. I have put the two together as potential brothers to explain the DNA matches.

Brian and Nathan (Butler/Whitty LIne)

Brian and Nathan descend from George Butler and his first wife Mary Whitty. This couple moved from Ireland to Cincinnati where they had Mary Ann. Mary Ann moved to St John, New Brunswick where she married and had descendants including Brian and Nathan who have had their autosomal DNA tested.

Nathan is in green because he has uploaded his DNA results to Gedmatch. Here is how Nathan matches my father-in-law, Richard:

A MRCA of 4.5 suggests a third cousin, once removed. By the tree above, Richard and Nathan would be fourth cousins, twice removed.

Brian tested at AncestryDNA and has a large match with my wife’s Aunt Lorraine:

The Problem with Brian and Lorraine

Ancestry predicts that Lorraine and Brian should be third cousins by the amount of DNA they share. By my proposed chart they would be fourth cousins, once removed. It seems like Lorraine and Brian share too much DNA to be 4th cousins, once removed. Here is part of a 2017 chart showing reported ranges of DNA matching for different relationships:

The highest reported DNA match for a 4C1R is 117 cM. That seems to rule out the chart I have above unless Brian and Lorraine match on another line such as the Crowley line. If Lorraine and Brian are actually third cousins, once removed, that leads to some strange conclusions. That would mean that Henry Butler is actually Michael Butler and that Ann Russel is actually Margaret Croke. Or that Henry/Michael Butler had two wives and that Lorraine and Brian are half third cousins once removed. I don’t know of DNA statistics for 1/2 3C1R, but 147 cM seems like it would be high for that relationship also. Another possibility is that Edward Henry Butler was the son of Henry Butler and Ann Russel but adopted by Michael Butler and Margaret Croke.

Here is how Brian matches my wife’s Aunt Virginia:

Ancestry suggests a 4th cousin match which is more in line with the proposed tree that I have showing that Lorraine and Brian could be fourth cousins, once removed.

Patty and Kim (Butler/Sinnett or Sinnott Line)

Patty matches Lorraine at 39 cM and Virginia at 30 cM which is more in line with my proposed chart. My proposed chart showed Lorraine and Virginia as 4th cousins. 35 cM is an average match for a 4th cousin.

Here is Patty’s tree:

Patty has a shared match with Terri. Here is Terri’s tree:

My guess is that Elmer could be a brother of George. Based on this 1920 Marriage record, that was the case:

That means that I can expand the Butler DNA match/genealogy tree:

Terri matches Virginia by 26 cM and doesn’t match Lorraine.

Kim at gedmatch

Kim’s DNA results are at Gedmatch. Here are three of her DNA matches with people on my larger chart:

Summary and Conclusions

  • In this Blog, I tried to give an overview of all the different types of applicable DNA matching results to my wife’s Butler Line
  • These DNA matches have resulted in finding new Butler relatives and a renewed effort to find genealogical connections.
  • One surprising result is that Brian and Lorraine match by too much DNA for them to be fourth cousins, once removed. If Brian and Lorraine don’t match on other family lines, then it would appear that their ancestors George and Edward Henry would have been brothers rather than 1st cousins. One scenario would have Edward Henry as the son of Henry Butler and Ann Russel and adopted by Michael Butler and Margaret Croke. This would explain why no birth record has been found for Edward H as the son of Michael Butler and Margaret Croke.Although this explanation answers some questions, it also raises other questions. If Edward was the son of Henry Butler, then why does family tradition say that he was the son of Michael Butler?

 

Updates to Butler YDNA

I see my last Blog on Butler YDNA was about a year ago.  A little or a lot can happen in a year. Turns out some things have happened.

Three Big Y Testers: 2 Butlers and a Batt

There are three Big Y testers that show that they have a common ancestor in the past 700 years. Here is the simplest way to show how these three are related:

Note that while Batt’s SNP is I-Y238315, I didn’t put Batt in that box. That is because Batt and Butler both descend from I-128315. In other words, Butler does not descend from Batt, but both names descend from a common ancestor. This shows that the three testers have a common ancestor who was born 700 years ago. This also shows that the two Butlers who have tested for the Big Y have a common (likely Butler) ancestor from about 225 years ago. Here is how the YTree shows it:

These are the dates that I didn’t have as of my previous Blog. Previously, we were just up to 700 years ago. This new information thanks to the new Big Y Butler tester brings us 475 years closer to the present date.

However, there is a catch to these dates.

SNPs Vs. STRs

The above trees are based on SNPs. FTDNA also tests for STRs. The STRs show that Batt is more closely related to my late father in law Richard Butler than to the other Butler. So which is right? Whenever there is a conflict between SNPs and STRs, SNPs are always right.

Here is how my father in law Richard matches Batt and the other Butler by STRs:

Based on STRs, it looks like Batt is a closer match than Butler. However, by SNPs my father in law matches Batt 700 years ago and Butler 225 years ago. This is due to the variability of STRs or back mutations. Also the Butler above could have had more STR mutations than usual and/or the 225 year estimate for common Butler ancestors could be on the low side

A New Butler STR Match

I was notified recently that there was a new Bulter 37 STR match. That is good news. Also this Butler has ancestors from County Wexford. Peter, who has been researching Butlers feels that Wexford is a likely origin for the Butlers. Here is my father in law’s match list at the 37 STR level:

The new Butler match at the top is a perfect match with my father in law at the 37 level. However, that could change as more STRs are tested. My guess is that the three Butlers on the list are I-Y128364 and the non-Butlers on the list are not. Also notice that the first two Butlers matching my father in law have Wexford roots.

Here is a partial map of Wexford:

I believe that my father in law’s family came from County Kilkenny just North of Waterford. However the distance from that area to Wexford is not far. At any rate, this new YDNA Butler match seems to suggest that a common Butler ancestor could be from Wexford.

What’s Next?

The new Butler match may want to take an Autosomal DNA test. This could be done at FTDNA or at AncestryDNA. The advantage of AncestryDNA is that they have more people who have taken that test. That means a bigger chance of finding matches. The DNA matches will be looking for genealogical connections. The new match could do further YDNA testing, but that is a bit more expensive than the autosomal DNA test.

 

 

A Second Butler Big Y Results Are In

I am thankful that Peter agreed to take the Big Y test, also known as the Big Y – 500. It is important when taking the Big Y test to have two people with the same surname. That is because results are achieved in tandem. That means, that to have new SNPs named there has to be someone else that matches you on that SNP. Otherwise, the SNPs that don’t match anyone else remain private.

Previously, I was also happy that Rick tested. He is not a Butler, but previous Y DNA tested indicated that his family and the Butlers were related at some time in the past. Based on YFull calculations that time would be 700 years ago. Even though, that seems like a long time ago, the common ancestor that my father in law, Richard, had before Rick tested was 3500 years ago. I wrote about Rick’s results here.

Peter’s YDNA SNPs at FTDNA

Peter tested at FTDNA. It took a little while to get his results, but when they came in, things happened quickly. Peter’s first results looked like this:

This showed that Peter matched Rick and Richard. This was expected. Not too much later, FTDNA showed that Peter actually formed a new branch with just himself and Richard.

In my opinion, this new SNP of I-Y128364 is likely a Butler-only SNP. This is one of the goals of the Big Y: to get a family surname level SNP. Here is how I see the Butler tree with SNPs:

The age of these common ancestors are from YFull.

Peter’s YDNA SNPs at YFull

Peter uploaded his FTNDA Big Y results to YFull. One would think the results would be the same between the two companies, but not quite so. For one thing, YFull gives age estimates. One is for the formation of the SNP and the other is for the common ancestors of the matches that share that SNP.

Above, Peter is YF14375. His number is faint as the results have not yet been finalized. I am expecting that YFull’s analysis will have Peter and Richard sharing a common SNP, once their analysis is done. Rick has the USA flag and Richard is the last person in the image above.

Some Differences Between FTDNA and YFull: Y128315 Vs Y128591

Under YFull, Y128315 shows three SNPs plus 17 others. One of the 17 others is Y128591:

That means that there were a bunch of SNPs in this group. FTDNA chose one SNP to be representative of the group (Y128591) and YFull picked a different one (Y1285315).

What About I-Y136556?

YFull has an extra SNP between I-S17511 and I-Y128315. This is I-S136556. . This may be because there is an ERS sample at YFull that I believe was taken from a study. This test result would not be included in the FTDNA information. This I-S136556 fills in some information that FTDNA did not have, but the dates are still ancient history as they are in the range of 4,000 to 3,500 years ago. Note above in the YFull Tree that Y136556 is also called BY37214. FTDNA has this listed under S17511:

The bottom line is that YFull shows slightly more detailed branching than FTDNA.

What’s Next?

Next we wait for YFull to finish their analysis. The interesting thing that YFull does that FTDNA does not do are age estimates. It will be interesting to see what YFull has for a date for the common ancestor between Peter and Richard. Also YFull will likely come to the conclusion, as FTDNA did, that Richard and Peter need to share their own Butler SNP.

 

 

 

BigY Moves Whitson/Butler Project 2,850 Years Toward the Present

Rick noticed recently that his SNP had changed at FTDNA where he had his BigY tested. His most recent SNP went from Y136556 to Y128591. This SNP change was based on FTDNA’s comparison of Rick’s results with my late father-in-law Richard’s BigY results.

New SNP Y128591

Here is how Richard and Rick now match at FTDNA:

This is added a new branch to the human race. This branch includes Rick with Whitson ancestry and Richard with Butler ancestry. Previously the branch ended at I-Y136556.

YFull Dating: a 2,850 Year Improvement

Here is the new YFull Tree:

Before Rick tested, Richard matched at I-Y136556. Richard had and has a common ancestor with a person with Russian heritage. The estimated date of Richard and the Russian person was 3900 ybp (years before present). Now Richard and Rick have a common ancestor estimated at 1050 ybp.

How did this change? Ricard and Rick match on 20 SNPs. These are 20 SNPs that they do not match with the Russian person. YFull estimates that a SNP is formed about every 144 years. 144 X 20 is 2,880 years. That is the simple match. That should mean also that in the past 1050 years, Rick and Richard should have about 7 SNPs that do not match.

The FTDNA Haplotree

The FTDNA Haplotree is equivalent to YFull’s YTree:

This points out some areas of difference. FTDNA has 22 SNPs that Rick and Richard share versus YFull’s 20.

Y128315 or Y128591?

Also YFull shows a SNP of Y128315 while FTDNA shows Y128591. This is because out of the 20 or 22 SNPs that Rick and Richard match on, one had to be chosen to represent the group. FTDNA chose Y128591 and YFull chose Y128315. FTDNA does have that Y128315 listed three from the end in the box of SNPs above.

Implications of a TMRCA of 1050 Years

1050 years ago most people had no surname. According to Wikipedia, “By 1400, most English and some Scottish people used surnames.” That means that the common ancestor that Rick and Richard had would have been about 450 years before surnames were commonly used – depending on the area. That means that based, just on Rick’s and Richard’s testing, the Whitson and Butler name could have arisen independently. Prior to Rick’s BigY results, there was some indication that there was some confusion between the two surnames due to adoption or other issues over the years.

It would be interesting to know where the Whitson/Butler ancestor lived 1050 years ago. That is something that is not possible to know just based on the comparison of these two BigY tests. However, as more people test within the Y128315/Y128592  Group, it may be possible to find this out.

A Whitson/Butler SNP Tree

It was not too long ago when all we knew was that Whitson/Butler was A427.

 

At that time, I had predicted that there would be a parallel branch to S23612 that the Butlers and Whitsons would be in. That parallel branch was S17511. The next SNP that came along was Y136556 which includes Russia and Ireland. The I2 Whitsons are possibly from England. Thanks to Rick’s testing we now have a Butler/Whitson SNP – Y128591. Additional testing may reveal other surnames under this SNP. Once Peter’s results are in, I am hoping for a Butler-only SNP that will define the I2 branch of that family. That SNP would be one step down from on the left branch above.

One Other Difference Between FTDNA and YFull

On FTDNA’s Haplotree, I see no Y136556 branch. It appears that FTDNA have incorporated that SNP into S17511 as BY37214.

It is a fairly small distinction, but I like YFull’s YTree configuration better.

Summary and Conclusions

  • My biggest takeaway is that Butler and Whitson do not appear to be as closely related as previously thought. The common ancestor between the Butler and Whitson based on this comparison was 1050 years before present. That would be in the year 968 or about in the middle of the Middle Ages.
  • Thanks to YFull, the common ancestor for Butler and Whitson was pushed forward 2,850 years. That is a dramatic difference.
  • It is likely that Peter’s pending BigY results will produce a new SNP for the Butler family.
  • It would be helpful for the Whitson side to have another I2 Whitson test for the BigY. This would likely result in a Whitson-only I2 SNP below Y128591.

 

 

Rick’s Whitson/Butler Big Y YDNA Results

The co-administrator for the Whitson/Butler YDNA Project, Peter notified me recently that Rick had a new SNP designation. This was a hint that Rick’s Big Y results were almost done. Soon after, I saw that Rick’s Big Y results were completed.

What Does the BigY Do?

According to FTDNA, which does the test:

The Big Y-500 is a Y-chromosome direct paternal lineage test. We have designed it to explore deep ancestral links on our common paternal tree. This test examines thousands of known branch markers as well as millions of places where there may be new branch markers. 

On average, YDNA changes about once every 144 years. That means that someone between me and my third great-grandfather probably had a new marker or SNP.

Named and Numbered SNPs

When the SNPs are tested, the results are shown in one of two ways. They are either named SNPs or numbered SNPs. The named SNPs are, for the most part, ones that are common to other people. In the Whitson/Butler YDNA Project, there are six tested men within the Haplogroup of I2.

Each of these six men have a SNP which is M438 or the equivalent P21 or S31. The letter before the number stands for the testing company that discovered the SNP.  The SNP named M438 designates that these men are I2 and not I1 or R1a or R1b. Further, these six men also have the SNP named M436. This used to be called I2a2, but now the branches are named for the SNP test name rather than the branch of I2.

M436 in the above three has its own tree. All the men in the Whitson/Butler Project that are I2 are also M426 and M223:

Here are the I2 men from the Whitson/Butler Project:

Rick’s results are at the top in green. William Whitson is Rick’s ancestor. A green SNP in the last column means that there was a test for the SNP. The red SNP results means that these three men did not have their SNPs tested, but from the STR results, FTDNA is quite sure they are in that branch and would be positive for M223 if they tested for it. In the list above, the first person Rick and the last person, Richard, have their BigY results. Peter has ordered the BigY test, but his results are not yet in. He has previously tested for A427. A427 is to the bottom right of the above tree on the next to the last line.

Why is A427 Germanic and North Slavic?

According to the YFull YTree (see below), A427 formed about 5,000 years ago. That means in the last 5,000 years, A427 descendants had plenty of time to move around. War and famine would be two reasons I coiuld think of to relocate. Climate change must factor in also. That gave time for id FY12481 from the YFull Tree to make his way to Russia and the Whitsons and Butlers time to make their way to Ireland and England.

Here is a portion of a map that Pete sent me today. Pete is in a non-I2 part of the Whitson/Butler DNA Project:

Around 117 A.D., according to the creators of the map, I2a2 centered around a place called Lombardy. It also included the Teutons. However, my understanding is that it could have included the Goths and the Baltic Tribes. So, that general area of the map.

Whitson/Butler and the A427 Branch

Probably all the Whitsons and Butlers that are I2 are also A427. Note above in the Eupdedia I2a2 Tree, that there is a SNP below A427 called Y4884. However that is not the Whitson/Butler Branch. Here is what YFull shows:

The YFull tree shows that quite a few people tested positive for Y4884. However, Richard and Rick are in S17511. This is probably a newer discovered branch since the 2016 Eupedia Tree above. YFull is a bit ahead of FTDNA at this point as it also has Richard in Y136556 which is one step below S17511. Richard is designated with an Irish Flag. There is someone with a Russian heritage that is also positive for Y136556. For that reason, I don’t think that Richard and the Russian will be grouped together for long. I think that Richard and Rick and then Richard, Rick and Peter will form at least one new haplogroup.

Here is a tree I made for a previous Blog. It showed where I expected the new Butler/Whitson Branch to be. We now know that parallel branch is S17511. However, the actual Whitson/Butler branch will be a few levels below that.

The good news is that without doing anything, my father-in-law’s SNP went down the ladder two more steps. This was just based on people who we didn’t know who had Big Y tests. Now we have people testing for Big Y like Rick,  who we expect are related. I would think that the results would be more relevant and bring us into the genealogical time frame.

Naming Problems: Y136556/BY37214

I did not find Y136556 on Rick’s list of SNPs from his BigY test. However, he is positive for BY37214 which is the same SNP with a different name:

Fortunately, the YTree by YFull lists both names:

I think that the BY prefix is the BigY designation, so that may be what will show up eventually at FTDNA.

Numbered SNPs

Numbered SNPs are those that are not yet named SNPs. This is most likely because they are not yet shared with anyone else. Or else, they are shared and no one has gotten around to naming them yet. For example, as I mentioned above, Richard is positive for Y136556. It is possible to go to a website called YBrowse and look this SNP up by name or location:

At the top, I find out that Y136556 is also at position 14,628,410 on the Y Chromosome. Before this SNP was named, it would have been reported by the position number. I also note that this SNP has two other names: Y41633 and BY37214. I’m not sure why there are two Y names.

Acording to YBrowse, Y136556 is not on the YFull Tree. However, I know that it is on the YFull Tree, so they are perhaps having trouble keeping up with all the new SNPs.

A Third Category – Novel Variants

There is actually a third category of SNPs. These are called Novel Variants. I put in a question to the I-M223 Y Haplogroup at FTDNA about Richard’s Y136556 SNP and got the following answer:

The blurred out name is Rick. I was asking why Richard didn’t show as Y136556. The answer is that FTDNA is getting to it. And as I guessed, there will be at least one new branch based on Rick’s results.

One of the ‘Novel SNPs’ that Richard and Rick share is Y128591. I looked up Y128591 at YBrowse and it is at position 2786469. Under Rick’s FTDNA BigY list of downloaded Novel Variants, Rick has 2786469 which FTDNA does not yet show as a named SNP.

With all the testing going on, these haplotrees and SNPs are in a constant state of change.

Rick Matches Richard at FTDNA

FTDNA has specific requirements for who can and cannot match under the Big Y results. Assuming the guy with Russian heritage tested at FTDNA, he did not meet the FTDNA requirements as he does not show as a match to Rick or Richard:

A person is considered a match if they have 30 or fewer differences in SNPs with you, and their haplogroup is downstream from your haplogroup or downstream from your four closest parent haplogroups.

Here is how Rick shows up on my late father in law’s results:

Note that Rick and Richard have 324,704 Shared Variants. Rick and Richard also share Unnamed Variants:

 

I copied Rick’s and Richard’s Novel Variants and then lined them up to see where they matched and did not match. The matches are in yellow. The Novel Variants that did not match are in green. Perhaps these yellow SNPs are the ones that bring us from 4200 years ago to a more reasonable time frame.

I looked up every SNP location at YBrowse to see if there was a name for the SNP yet. There are no names for Rick’s unique SNPs as he has not uploaded to YFull yet. That is, with one exception. All these new SNP names appear to have been created by YFull. Rick has one SNP that does not match Richard’s which is Y40359. This appears to be an older SNP. Perhaps Richard did not have a good read for that SNP.

One final note is that the above are all from FTDNA’s Unnamed Variants list. That means that FTDNA has not named them. However, in many cases, YFull has named these variants.

Non-Matching Variants

FTDNA has this to say about non-matching variants:

This column displays the known variants (SNPs) within your subclade that you and the specified match do not share.

That means that the Non-Matching Variants could be on Rick’s or Richard’s side. Here are the non-matching variants that Rick has:

  1. A8346
  2. BY31782
  3. 12200779
  4. 15405895
  5. 18999479
  6. 19550845
  7. 19714191

Here are the non-matching variants that Richard has:

  1. 15649019
  2. 20968182

From the above, I see this configuration:

The SNPs that Rick and Richard have in the two bottom boxes are called Private SNPs. That means that they are not at this time shared with anyone else. FTDNA or YFull would not show a tree this way as they only show branching where there is a match in the SNP. When Peter’s BigY results are in, he may form a branch with Rick or Richard. Say that Peter tests positive for all the SNPs in the box above Rick and Richard. Then he also shares some of Rick’s private SNPs. That would put Rick and Peter in a new branch where Rick is now and Richard would go to the box above where I have him now as he would only share those SNPs. One of the SNPs in the box above Rick and Richard would be chosen to describe that branch. My guess is that Peter will be positive for all the SNPs in the box above Rick and Richard, but if he isn’t, then that will also form a new branch under the box that says Russia.

It is interesting that Richard only has two private SNPs. To me, this would indicate that his time to a shared ancestor should be within the genealogical time frame. Going from 5,000 years ago to the genealogical time frame is a big jump. That is part of the allure of the BigY test.

I am fortunate to have two other BigY testers from the Whitson/Butler YDNA Project. Without their results, I would only know that Richard is distantly related to someone with Russian heritage.

A Guess On Future SNP Branching

I checked my old notes on STR trees. STR trees are not as accurate as SNP trees. Here is one I drew a while back:

Assuming that I drew this right,  it appears that 6 Butler (my father in law Richard) would be in the first new SNP group. Below that Rick (1 Batt) and Peter (4 Butler) would be in a SNP group with the common ancestor of BA2 as shown above.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The results are just in and are interesting. However, some waiting is still required while the dust settles
  • FTDNA is working on finalizing a shared haplogroup between Rick and Richard
  • YFull will also come to its own conclusion and come up with some dating estimates once they get the BAM files from the Big Y results.
  • Once the branching has settled out, I expect that there will be some answers and some more new questions.

 

An Update on an Irish Butler’s Big Y

Not too long ago I wrote about my Butler father in law’s Big Y results here. I found it a bit frustratinng that FTDNA changed their matching criteria. Richared is I2 on the YDNA nomenclature and his terminal SNP is now I-A427. Here are the matches shown at FTDNA:

However, there was a catch to the matching. Now Richard has a match if:

A person is considered a match if they have 30 or fewer differences in SNPs with you, and their haplogroup is downstream from your haplogroup or downstream from your four closest parent haplogroups.

Since my last Blog, I uploaded Richard’s VCF file to YFull.

I made sure to show that his ancestor was from Ireland, as I didn’t see any other Irish Flags. Now Richard is in an I-A427 group with no further branching along with two other YFull people. I’m hoping that once the next Y Tree comes out, that Richard will be on a new branch of the Y Tree. But back to the matching. If I count the id’s above, I get 17 other than Richard that are positive for I-A427. Yet Richard has no A427 matches by the FTDNA criteria. And that holds true for the four branches above A427 even though there are likely many more people that are positive for those SNPs.

Once Richard was on YFull, I joined him to the I-M223 Group. That way, group adminsters can see his results there and do any needed analysis.

FTDNA’s SNP Tree

I was unable to get FTDNA’s SNP tree working for my last blog. Here is how it looks for Richard:

I have a little trouble reading the FTDNA tree. I went two levels above A427 to P78. It looks like the two branches under P78 are the larger S25733 and the smaller Y7219. Under S25733 there is A427 and PH2670.  This leads me to modify the tree I had drawn in my previous Blog:

This was drawn to show that FTDNA may be ahead of YFull in some aspects and YFull may be ahead of FTDNA in others. The yellow level and down don’t  apply to the Butler/Whitson I-M223 Branches. Peter from the Project and Richard have both tested negative for S23612. That means that they are awaiting to be put in a  new branch below A427 that is parallel to S23612.

Here is where I expect the new branch to be:

Eventually, there should be additional branching below this yellow level. I would expect there to be more than just Butlers and Whitsons in this branch as this branch could still be over 4,000 years old. Note that probabably due to planned family testing, the Y24488 Branch got down to as recent as 150 years ago for their common ancestor.

VCF and BAM files

The two files that are generated when your Big Y results come in are the VCF and BAM files. FTDNA has not been generating the BAM files due to their conversion from HG19 to HG38. Due to a better understanding of YDNA a new standard was needed as new locations were found on the Y Chromosome. Thus the new HG38. For example, here is a list of some of Richard’s Novel SNPs:

YFull shows the HG19 position and the HG38 position.

The BAM Files are much larger than the VCF files. Other than that I don’t know a lot about them. YFull used to only accept the BAM files, but now that BAM files are held up, they wisely decided to accept VCF files. They get their money ($49) and we get most of the analysis. The rest of the analysis is done for free once the BAM file is available. Here is YFull’s ad:

Note they state that they only get about 50-70% of what they need from the VCF file. Also note that no age estimation is done without the BAM file. That is one of the most popular features of YFull. So I will definitely send YFull my BAM link once it is available.

Any Shared SNPs at YFull?

Again, no. YFull doesn’t do SNP sharing on old SNPs. Isn’t that age discimination? This is from the YFull site:

Q: What is YFull’s “SNP matches” methodology?

A: The methodology is reflected in the SNP matches table, which provides information about Shared SNPs and Assumed Shared SNPs of compared samples. The table is limited to SNPs having an estimated age of 3500 ybp or younger (using TMRCA from the YTree), with a maximum of 100 lines of information.

I-A427 has a TMRCA of 4700 years before present. That is ancient. Richard is only off by 1200 years.

Are the Novel SNPs At YFull the Same As the Unnamed Variants At FTDNA?

I think so. From my last Blog, FTDNA showed that Richard had 33 Unnamed Variants of High Quality. YFull shows 18 Novel SNPs of best quality and 11 of acceptable quality. That adds up to 29 which is two off from FTDNA’s 33 Novel SNPs and Unnamed Variants appear to be the same thing. However, based on differing interpretations different Novel SNPs were reported at different reported qualities:

This is a partial listing of all of Richard’s Variants. YFull is on the left and Big Y is on the right. I lined everthing up by the position numbers. YFull reports two Novel SNPs as ‘Ambiguous Quality’ that FTDNA reports as High Quality. Then FTDNA has 7 Novel SNPs rated at High that YFull does not even report. Again, it’s good to have a second opinion.

Any Shared Novel SNPs at YFull?

I think so. I copied all the Noved SNPs into Excel and filtererd all the ones that said ‘shared’ on them:

Here is what I gather:

  • Even though these 14 Novel SNPs are shared, I can’t tell who they are shared with
  • There are an equal amount of low quality Novel SNPs shared as well as Best Quality Novel SNPs
  • One Novel SNP is new as there was no HG19 Position given
  • All these Novel SNPs have been named except for two. The YF designation is a YFull numbering system, but as far as I know, not a SNP naming designation.
  • I expect these Best quality and acceptable quality shared Nove SNPs to form a new branch or branches.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The Big Y Results have gotten tbe ball rolling for the I-M223 Group of the Whitson/Butler YDNA Project
  • Once the BAM file is available from FTDNA it will be uploaded to YFull
  • Richard’s Big Y VCF file has been uploaded to YFull. I expect new branching once a new Y Tree comes out. These seem to come out about every two months. The last one came out at the beginning of January.
  • FTDNA’s I-M223 administrators will also be looking at the Big Y results and the Y Full results for Richard, to see if further branching of A427 is warranted.
  • One or two others from the Witson/Buter I-M223 Branch have expressed interest in taking the Big Y test. These tests could get to how the Butlers and Witsons are related. This may also give some geographic information on common ancestors. The Butlers were known to be in Ireland? Were the Whitsons also there? If so, when?