Angelina: A Close Match on My Mother’s German Latvian Side

When I was out in the State of Washington visiting with my daughter and granddaughter, I came upon a close DNA match for my family. Her name is Angelina and I found her results at MyHeritage.

Here is the summary of the match between my Mom, Gladys and Angelina:

MyHeritage made a guess that these two could be 1st cousin once removed or 2nd cousin. Angelina’s DNA is managed by Georges in Switzerland.

Here is my mom’s tree on her paternal side where she must match Angelina by DNA:

If Angelina and Gladys are 2nd cousins, that would mean that their common ancestors would have to be Rathfelder/Schwechheimer or Gangnus/Lutke. That narrows it down to two choices. Seems simple.

If My Mom and Angelina Are 1st Cousins Once Removed

It is possible that Angelina could descend from this family:

Further, if this was the case, Angelina may descend from one of the daughters of Johann Heinrich Rathfelder. That would be Erna Auguste, Caroline Antonie or Marie Otilie. My reasoning is that if she had descended from a male Rathfelder, then the child would also be a Rathfelder and that Angelina probably would have known that. Unfortunately, I don’t have the information for any of the marriages above except for the last two children: Alexander and Leo.

Comparing the DNA

Here is how my mother’s DNA and Angelina’s DNA match up:

Using DNA Painter, I have painted in Angelina’s DNA matches on my mother’s chromosome map:

The above map just shows my mother’s paternal matches. I called the medium green “Unknown Latvian Ancestor” until we figure out who that ancestor is.

Here is a partial Rathfelder tree with DNA matches that I have identified:

I see that I forgot to add Inese to my Mother’s DNA Painter Map. I’ll add her now:

Between adding Angelina and Inese, that brings my mom from 32% paternally mapped to 40% paternally mapped.

Adding in Assunta

My mother also matches Assunta by DNA. Assunta appears to be the niece of Angelina. I wrote to Assunta previously, but she didn’t know anything about her ancestry. She wrote that she lives in Germany, but her family is from Italy. Assunta expands the DNA matches that Angelina has with my mother on Chromosomes 2 and 11:

Limited Genealogy Options

I am not able to see Angelina’s family tree, but these surnames are listed for her tree:

However, I can’t tell if they are ancestor surnames or descendant or collateral surnames.

Sometimes I do research on a Latvian Genealogy web site: http://www.lvva-raduraksti.lv/

However, that web site is not working now.

Summary and Conclusions

  • My first guess is that Angelina and Assunta descend from one of the daughters of Johann Heinrich Rathfelder and Marie Elisabeth Laura Gangnus.
  • The second guess is that they descend from one of set of the two sets of parents of Heinrich and Marie.
  • It’s frustrating having such a close match as Angelina and Assunta and not knowing exactly where they fit in. However, the connection has been narrowed down.

 

My Relative Eva and Our DNA Match at MyHeritage

I was checking DNA matches at MyHeritage recently and came across Eva. Here is how Eva matches my mother at MyHeritage:

Eva also has a tree at MyHeritage which is a big help:

As Eva has a Rathfelder ancestor, is from Latvia and matches by DNA, that leads me to believe that we have a common Rathfelder ancestor.

Where Does Eva Fit In the Rathfelder Puzzle?

At first, I thought that Eva’s grandfather Henrihs might fit in here:

My thinking was that there was space between 1882 and 1888. Also that Henrihs could have been named for his father Heinrich. According to Wikipedia, there are quite a few Latvian versions of Henry:

Latvian: Henrijs, Henriks, Heinrihs, Henrihs, Indriķis, Ints, Anrijs, Anrī

Another possibility is the Harry Eduard in the list. I don’t have much information about him. However, that would make Eva and me second cousins, and MyHeritage is guessing that we are 3rd or 4th cousins, so either our DNA match is smaller than usual, or we are related further back. Here is the amount of DNA expected to be shared between 2nd cousins:

The average is 233 cM, but the lower reported range could go as low as 46 cM.

Who was Henrihs Ratfelders Born 1887?

For my research I use mostly:

http://www.lvva-raduraksti.lv/

This website has a list of all Latvians as of 1918-1940.

I don’t see anyone that looks like Henrihs:

I do see Hermanis. He was born 1918-05-14. Hermanis was the son of my grandfather’s brother Leo Rathfelder. Speaking of Leo, he appears three times in the online Latvian database:

This shows correctly that he was born in Riga, but that his ancestry was in Irsu pag. which is the area where the Colony of Hirschenhof was. Interestingly Leonhards’ father’s name is given as Heinrihs. That means that Eva and I have ancestors with both the same first name and last name.

Looking for Zelma Jancevska Born 1907

It looks like there was 20 years difference between Henrihs and Zelma. I couldn’t find Zelma either:

However, I could not find my grandfather either on this list or any of his siblings except for Leo.

Deeper Into the Records of Hirschenhof

It is possible that Henrihs was born in Hirschenhof, so I’ll take a look at those records. Here are the records I need for 1887:

Unfortunately, it seems like the web site is not working properly. I guess I’ll have to try later.

Well, I figured that one out.

Eva’s DNA Matches

Because Eva seems to certainly be related on the Rathfelder side somehow, I’ll add her to DNA Painter for my Mom:

Here is the amount of DNA typically shared between third cousins:

My mother shares 74 cM of DNA with Eva. I share only 28.1 cM with Eva.

Eva’s DNA Matches Shared with My Mom at MyHeritage

These are the matches my Mom and Eva share:

Angelina is a fairly new match and will likely be the subject of my next Blog. My Mom matches her at a high amount. Inese is a descendant of my Mom’s Uncle Leo Rathfelder and lives in Latvia. Edeltraud is a more distant relative. Here is her tree:

Edeltraud has Ludwig Spatz and Emilie Schmidt as being from Hirschenhof. My mother has a Schmidt in her paternal ancestry, so that may be the connection:

Anna was born in Germany, but married and died in Hirschenhof, Latvia.

Stuck for Now

I’ll have to come back to Eva later. Here is the part of my tree that we might both descend from:

It seems like there should be more children born to Johnn Georg Rathfelder above. I only show one son, Johannes. The common Rathfelder ancestor that Eva and I have should be Johann Heinrich, Johannes or Joahnn Georg. I’ve narrowed it down to three generations!

Summary and Conclusions

  • It would seem almost certain that I share a Latvian Rathfelder ancestor with Eva. However, figuring out the genealogy for that ancestor is difficult.
  • My guess is that Eva’s grandfather Henrihs Ratfelders could have been born in the German Colony of Hirschenhof, Latvia. However, the website with those records is not working right now.
  • My ancestor Johann Heinrich is also listed as Heinrihs in the all Latvia online database.
  • Eva’s Henrihs may be the son of my great-grandfather Johann Heinrich Rathfelder, but I don’t have a record of that birth. Alternately, the Heinrich name may be a coincidence or be named after a third Heinrich that I don’t know about.
  • If Eva and I share the ancestor of Johann Heinrich, that would make us 2nd cousins. However, the DNA match levels suggest that we are 3rd or 4th cousins. That would push our common ancestry one or two generations before Johann Heinrich Rathfelder born 1846.
  • I’ll have to wait for more clues before I can figure out the puzzle of how Eva and my Rathfelder ancestry fit together. The answer is out there waiting to be discovered.

 

The Gedmatch DNA Results of Donna: My Mom’s First Cousin Twice Removed


I previously wrote a Blog about Donna here. Here is how AncestryDNA shows that Donna is related to me:

The problem with AncestryDNA is that they don’t show the specifics of how we are related by DNA. But Gedmatch.com does show:

Donna and I have a better than usual match. We are 2nd cousins once removed, but we share as much DNA as 2nd cousins. We share 220.5 cM of DNA:

233 is about average for second cousins. However, I am within the reported range for 2nd Cousin once removed.

Donna and DNA Painter

DNA Painter is a utility that maps DNA matches. Here is my current maternal side:

Our common ancestors are JH Rathfelder and M.E.L Gangnus in orange:

The orange and grey segments represent my other second cousins. Iain is in grey and is a brother or cousin to Donna. I’ll add Donna to DNA Painter:

Donna adds new information on Chromosomes 10, 12, 14 and 16. That brings up my Maternal side DNA from 32% painted to 34% painted.

Painting My Mom

Painting my mom should make a bigger difference. That is because Iain tested at 23andMe. I have tested there, but not my mom, so she doesn’t show Iain’s results.

My mom has only 24% painted overall:

Rathfelder/Gangnus shows as medium blue for my mom.

Here is my mom’s paternal DNA:

I plan to add quite a bit to the blue by adding in Donna’s DNA matches to my mom. Here is how Donna matches my mom at Gedmatch:

I’ll add Donna to my mother’s paternal grandparents’ DNA in grey below:

That brings my mom from 19% painted to 27% painted on her paternal side:

Overall, that brings my mom from 24% painted to 28% painted.

Previously, my mom had no DNA mapped on Chromosome 21. Now she has each of her chromosomes at least partially mapped.

Donna’s Other Cousins with Latvian Ancestry

All of these people are listed at Gedmatch except for Iain. He tested at 23andMe. Also I don’t see Ingrid at Gedmatch. Inese and Anita were at Gedmatch but they must not have opted back in yet.

Here is a matrix of all the matches:

This shows that everyone matches everyone else. The only exception is Jon and Astrid. However, as Jon’s five siblings match Astrid, that is not a big deal.

Here is a summary chart for Donna:

I would be curious to see how Donna matches with Inese and Anita from Latvia. Donna matches lower than average with Catherine but more than average with her other matches on average. Donna’s match with my cousin Cindy even seems to break a record:

I don’t know if this chart has been updated since 2017, but the highest reported amount of shared DNA for a second cousin once removed was 316 cM. Cindy and Donna share 329.5 cM.

Here is a tool from DNA Painter:

According to this tool second cousin once removed is possible 6.30% of the time but falls outside the 99th percentile of recorded values. Confusing.

Ancestry give Cindy and Donna’s relationship a 1% chance of happening:

Otis: Shared Match with Donna and Cindy

When I look at shared matches with Donna and Cindy, I see Otis.

His tree is a bit complicated due to some intermarriage. Donna should be in this tree also. Her grandfather was born in 1919, so between Herman and Vera. Also I need to paint Otis into my mother’s DNA Painter Map.

Otis brings my mother up to 31% painted on her paternal side:

My mom and Otis share a good amount of DNA:

I assigned the DNA to the closer Schwechheimer ancestor, but the more distant one is possible also.

Here is how Donna and Otis match:

Something to Consider: DNA Vs. Genealogy

The DNA cannot prove that my mother’s Uncle Leo Rathfelder was the father of Donna’s grandfather Leo Rathfulder Barlow. However, the name of Donna’s grandfather in conjunction with the DNA evidence makes a compelling case. From the DNA even my grandfather Alexander Rathfelder could have been the father of Leo Rathfulder Barlow. In that scenario, Leo Rathfulder Barlow would be my mother’s 1/2 brother and Donna would be my mother’s 1/2 great niece. The average DNA match for a 1/2 great niece is 432:

Compare this to my mom’s match with Donna at 463.4 cM. That would then make me a 1/2 first cousin once removed to Donna:

Oddly, this scenario makes sense given the level of DNA matches.  The average DNA matches of myself, siblings and first cousins were 212.8 cM. In addition, I have a photo of my grandfather Alexander that shows he was in London. I dated it as being around 1915, but I’m not sure what I based that on – probably his arrival in New York City in January 1916..

 

The objections to this scenario are:

  • If Leo Barlow was the son of Alexander , why would he have been named for Alexander’s brother Leo?
  • As Alexander jumped ship in New York City on January 15, 1916, I would think that it would have been unlikely that he would have gone to sea again. According to his naturalization papers, Alexander was called a “deserting seaman”.
  • I have postcards addressed to Alexander in New York City dated 1916 and 1917. Alexander was in New York City in the 1920 Census.
  • According to my Rathfelder Website, I have an undated postcard from Leo to my grandfather. That postcard was sent from England and gave Leo’s address as Glasgow.
  • I have no evidence that my grandfather Alexander was in England in 1918 or that Miss Barlow was in New York at that time.

Summary and Conclusions

  • DNA results suggest that my grandfather could have been the father of Leo Rathfulder Barlow. However, circumstantial evidence suggests that Alexander’s brother Leonhard Florentine Rathelder was the father.
  • Either way, Donna descends from the Rathfelder family with roots in Hirschenhof and Riga, Latvia.
  • It is always great to find a new cousin. It seems we are spread out a bit, though, between the US, England and Latvia.
  • Next I will look at another Latvian DNA match that I have at MyHeritage.
  • I could have used DNA triangulation to show more proof of how Donna is related to her Latvian relatives. However, that would have been a lot of work, and it is already clear that she is fairly closely related.

 

 

My Butler Brother-In-Law’s New BigY 700 Results Are In

I had been looking for my brother-in-law’s new BigY 700 results. Finally I got a note from a more distant relative Peter in England that Ken’s results were in. Here is the image that Peter shared from his perspective:

The first Richard on the list above is my father-in-law. I manage his results. The second Richard is a more distant relative in a different haplogroup (I-Y128591). I’m not sure why Ken is listed third on Peter’s match list. Peter and Ken have the most Shared Variants. It looks like the list is sorted by Non-Matching Variants. Peter and Ken have more of these because Peter, and the two Richard’s took the BigY 500 test. Ken’s BigY 700 tested for 50 percent more variants than the older BigY 500 test..

Peter’s Non-Matching Variants

From looking at Peter’s list of Non-Matching Variants, I think that I can learn a few things. Non-Matching Variants are a little confusing because they could not only be a variant that Peter has and Ken does not. It could also be a variant that Ken has and that Peter does not have.

15906031 and 13619832

I note that the variants at position numbers 15906031 and 13619832 are common to all three of Peter’s matches. That likely means that Peter has these variants and the other three do not. That means that if Peter has a close relative with the same last name tested, that relative should also have 15906031 and/or 13619832 and that probably one of these two would be Peter’s terminal haplogroup.

20968182

Both Richard and Ken have 20968182. This is likely the position for the variant that will become Richard and Ken’s terminal haplogroup. I can look up this position at YBrowse:

Here is what the position looks like:

My further guess is that Richard and Ken will have the terminal haplogroup of Y129564:

This haplogroup was ‘discovered’ by YFull in 2018. That was when I tested my father-in-law Richard and uploaded the results to YFull. Here are Richard’s results at YFull:

Richard had no Novel SNP’s in the Best quality category. But he did have one in the Accestable quality category which is Y129564.

What’s Next?

FTDNA will do a manual review on the results. It could take a while for them to get to the Butler results. However, I don’t see any possible outcome than the one I outlined above. Ken’s father Richard previously had one private variant. Ken matched this variant, which has the position number 20968182. It also has the name Y129564. This should be the new branch for what I would call the American Butlers. That means that Peter should remain in the now older branch of I-Y128364:

I-Y128364 should represent the now older Kilkenny/Wexford Branch of Butlers.

 

Finding My DNA Cousin Brenda at 23andMe

In my previous Blog, I figured out who my 23andMe cousin Kat was. I have another DNA cousin at 23andMe Brenda. I’d like to figure out where she fits in. 23andMe thinks that Brenda could be my third cousin:

Brenda and I share some DNA on 4 different chromosomes.

Here is another hint:

Brenda and I also have DNA matches with Kat and Stephen. The match with Kat is more important, because if it is right, then Brenda is a 2nd cousin to Kat. Here is a DNA matching Frazer tree that I have:

If I am a third cousin to Brenda and she is on the Frazer tree, then our common ancestors would be George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. If Brenda is a second cousin to Kat, then Kat and Brenda’s common ancestors should be William Frazer and Amanda Skoog. There are other possibilities, but that seems the most likely.

A Look at Stephen

Actually Stephen’s match is interesting also:

Stephen is on the lower left. If I’m right, Brenda is in the Frazer section in the middle. Steve and Brenda would be 5th cousins on the McMaster side. I am a closer match to Stephen on our Clarke side.

Painting Brenda

Using DNA Painter, an online utility, I can put Brenda’s matches next to my other matches. Here are some of Brenda’s details:

Here are a few possible surprises. I painted Brenda to George Frazer and Margaret McMaster based on Brenda’s match to Kat and me. However, DNA Painter has hints that Brenda is related further out at the level of James Frazer, Violet Frazer and Richard Frazer.

When I choose “show overlapping segments”, I get this:

When I look at my larger DNA map, I see this:

My cousin Paul and Brenda have a small overlap, but not enough to be picked up by DNA Painter as being significant.

Pro’s and Con’s of Putting Brenda on My DNA Tree Where I Did

I put Brenda as having the common ancestors with me of George Frazer and Margaret McMaster.

Pro’s:

  • At third cousin to me and 2nd cousin to Kat, it seems like Brenda should be a great-granddaughter of William Frazer.
  • William Frazer had three sons. Kat descends from James Robert Frazer. That means that Brenda could descend from Albert William Frazer or Walter Stanley Frazer. I don’t know much about Walter Stanley, so that is a possibility.

Con’s

  • I would expect Brenda to have more overlap with other descendants of George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Instead Brenda overlaps with more distant Frazer relatives.
  • With Margaret’s double McMaster parentage, I would have expected more matches with McMaster descendants – though she does match Stephen.

Walter Stanley Frazer 1924-1996

On October 10, 1937, Walter was 13 and sailing out of Galway – apparently on his own:

This stone at the National Cemetery in Culpepper, Virginia gives a very short summary of Walter’s life:

The affidavits for Walter’s Petition for US Naturalization were taken in London in 1944:

Here is some more personal information from the same document when Walter was 20:

Here is some information on Walter’s wife:

Julia was flying from Paris to New Jersey with her husband and three young children in 1959. They lived in Miami. If Brenda was part of this family, perhaps she was too young to take this trip.

I did find one of the daughters. I think that this is her school photo from Vienna Virginia, but I’m not sure. The other information would be right.

Findagrave.com mentions her two brothers but not a sister. So this may not be the family for Brenda.

One Other Possibility for Brenda

I have that my great-grandfather’s brother Hubert Alexander Frazer had a son named Calvin Coolidge Frazer and Calvin had a daughter named Brenda. I will try to get in touch with at least the most likely candidate I find on Facebook. The problem with this possibility is that Brenda should be a first cousin once removed to my second cousin once removed Paul. Brenda only shows a small overlap with Paul. That may be because I show a smaller than average match with my cousin Paul.

At some point Calvin Coolidge Frazer ended up living and dying in Sacramento. That is interesting as some Frazer’s from other branches ended up in that city also.

Summary and Conclusion

  • After figuring out one of my Frazer DNA matches at 23andMe (Kat), I tried to set out to figure out how I matched Brenda. Based on how Brenda matched Kat and me I guessed that Brenda might descend from a Great Uncle of Kat. There was one person who fit that category: Walter Stanley Frazer. I looked up some information on Walter, but I couldn’t find any record of Walter having a daughter named Brenda.
  • I painted Brenda’s match to me with DNA Painter and found that she did match me on my Frazer side. However, I was expecting some more matching on the McMaster side.
  • I looked into a Brenda Frazer who was the granddaughter of Hubert Alexander Frazer. She is a good  candidate as she has the right first name. I’ll give a shot a contacting her through Facebook. I’m pretty sure given the level of match Kat and I have with Brenda, that our common ancestors were George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. However, I am still interested in confirming that belief.
  • I thought this exercise would be easier than it was. Due to the randomness of DNA inheritance, matches do not always match up with each other at the same place.
  • Even if I don’t figure out who Brenda is, I have found out some more information about two branches of the Frazer Family.

Addendum

I did hear back from Brenda through 23andMe. She said I was right in my guess:

Brenda and I are at opposite ends of the tree. Brenda is also a first couisn to Paul. I had Paul’s DNA tested at FTDNA and uploaded his results to Gedmatch.com for analysis. Brenda got my painted chromosome up from 41% overall to 42%:

I changed my matches with Brenda to gold colored for those matches where DNA Painter showed we had an overlap with anouth Frazer match.

A 23andMe DNA Match with Frazer Relative: Kat

It took me a while to figure who Katherine was at 23andMe. Here is how Katherine and I match by DNA at 23andMe:

Here is what 23andMe says:

Katherine and I should be in the range of third cousins. Fortunately, Katherine posted a photo at 23andMe. After looking at Facebook photos, I found some that were the same as Katherine’s photos at a Frazer Family Facebook page we are both on. The mystery is solved.

Here is how I show Kat on our Frazer tree:

I recently wrote a Blog on Rebecca and our match at AncestryDNA. So it has been good to find these Frazer DNA matches. My blog on Rebecca showed that I matched her more on the McMaster side than the Frazer side. This was not surprising as our common ancestor Margaret McMaster had two McMaster parents. Also Kat’s grandfather James Robert Frazer born 1927 married a McMaster. The advantage of Kat’s test compared to Rebecca’s DNA test is that I will be able to see how Kat and I match on specific chromosomes.

Painting Kat’s DNA Match

There is a web tool called DNA Painter that I use to show where my DNA matches are. Here is my current DNA Map:

This shows my paternal and maternal sides. My Frazer matches are on my paternal side. This shows I am 41% painted overall. I circled some of the areas that Kat could match me.

Here is just my paternal side where I am mapped at 50%:

I have a lot of green as I have a lot of Hartley 2nd cousins.

Adding Kat to the Mix

Kat got my DNA mapping up a percent from 50% to 51% on my paternal side. I mapped our DNA matches to “Frazer McMaster 1838” because that is where our shared DNA comes from.

Next, I’ll expand Chromosome 19 as that is where our largest match is:

Kat’s match with me in maroon overlaps with Keith’s match with me in blue. Keith has McMaster ancestry. That means that my match with Kat on Chromosome 19 is from the McMaster side. But which McMaster? For that we have to look at Keith’s genealogy.

Keith descends from Fanny and James McMaster. That means that the DNA that Kat and I share on Chromosome 19 must be from Margaret McMaster. For simplicity, I didn’t make a new box for Kat as Kat and Rebecca both have similar genealogy. Here is Margaret McMaster on the left who married George Frazer :

 

Because I know something more specific about this DNA, I’ll make a new category for Margaret McMaster’s DNA.

I added a dark green for Margaret McMaster’s DNA.

Emily’s McMaster DNA

The reasoning is the same for Emily who matches me on Chromosome 19, but the common ancestor goes back another generation:

This match with BV seems to indicate that the DNA is coming down from the McMaster side. BV also has Frazer ancestry, but that Frazer connection is too far back in time to consider.

My Chromosome 1 Match with Kat

Most of my paternal Chromosome 1 matches are on my Hartley side:

That explains why I don’t have room for a larger match with Kat. I can’t tell if my match with Kat is Frazer or McMaster, so I’ll leave it maroon which means it could be either.

Chromosome 7

Here I have a pink arrow pointing to my match with Kat. Right below Kat is a match with my cousin Paul and I have that as a George Frazer DNA segment in yellow. If I did that right, then my match with Kat also came from George Frazer. My reasoning is based on the two blue matches. They are from Susan and Ken:

Susan and Ken are related on the Frazer side. That means our overlapping segments came from the Frazer and not the McMaster side.

Here I have turned the match that I have with Kat from maroon to gold to indicate that it is a Frazer match. Right after that I have two blue matches. That represents a crossover that my father had from his mother. My dad’s mother had a Frazer father and a Clarke mother. Where I have the arrow pointing represents the change from Frazer to Clarke in the DNA that my father got from his mother and passed down to me.

Chromosome 10 – More Frazer DNA

I have a small match with Kat on Chromosome 10 that is right below a match I have with Michael in red:

Here is Michael:

This DNA comes down from Richard Frazer to his daughter Violet Frazer. I don’t want a new entry for Violet, so I’ll say that this DNA is from George Frazer. However, the DNA Kat and I share is actually from George’s mother Violet Frazer.

Chromosome 12

Chromosome 12 gets a little tricky, but it looks to be McMaster DNA for sure:

The first maroon match is with my cousin Paul. The second maroon match is my match with Kat. The purple match is with BV. BV had that small match with Emily on Chromosome 19 above. I have the other two pink matches going back to Abraham McMaster born in 1764. There is a lot of confusion about McMaster genealogy and how all lthe McMasters fit together. This cluster of matches may be a hint to unravel that confusion.

For right now, I’ll sign over to the two maroon segments to Margaret McMaster DNA (green segments):

I also showed some of the detail of my match with Warwick and our common ancestor of Abraham McMaster.

Here is Kat’s summary from DNA Painter:

  • The maroon is George Frazer or Margaret McMaster DNA
  • The yellow is George Frazer DNA
  • The green is Margaret McMaster DNA

Kat and I have a lot more McMaster and Frazer DNA, but this is just where our DNA intersects or matches.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The fact that Kat tested at 23andMe made it easy for me to see where we matched, and by how much on each chromosome
  • Once I added Kat’s matches to my other matches using DNA Painter, I could see whether our match was on the Frazer side or McMaster side for each segment where we matched.
  • One match that I had with Kat and descendants of Abraham McMaster may be a clue as to how Abraham McMaster fits in with the other McMaster genealogy.
  • If Kat uploads her DNA results to Gedmatch.com, she will be able to see how she matches other Frazer descendants by DNA.

 

My Mom’s Lentz Family and Roberta Estes’ Lentz Family

Roberta Estes has blogged about her Lentz family. I have also blogged about my Lentz family. Roberta and I have checked to see if there was an autosomal DNA match between our two families, but we were unable to find any significant match. Recently, in checking my 23andMe results, it seems like there may be a way to see if we are related by YDNA.

My Mom’s Lentz Family YDNA

I have tested my DNA at 23andMe and have a few Lentz matches there. One good thing about 23andMe is that when you take an autosomal test, they also give you a rough estimate of your YDNA haplogroup. I have has two Lentz matches at 23andMe who are brothers. They both have this Haplogroup:

I’ve sent off messages to the two brothers. I don’t know exactly how we are related, but based on the size of the autosomal DNA match and where they live, my guess is that our common ancestors must be Jacob George Lentz and Annie Nicholson:

I don’t have record of William Lentz born 1892 as having any sons. William did have a brother named Stanley who had sons, so that may be where the two matches fit in. At any rate, their YDNA would go up through the Lentz side.

What is R-Y4355?

I would expect that 23andMe has an accurate haplogroup though not recent. Here is what YFull has on Y4355:

Above the tree, YFull gives the YDNA Line for this branch of Lentz back to Genetic Adam (listed as Home). This shows that Y4355 is about 4200 years old, so fairly old. I recognize R-U152 in that line as a major branch.

Roberta Estes’ Lentz YDNA

Here is what Roberta has in one of her Blogs:

Roberta has invested in the Big Y test for her Lentz relatives, so this is likely to be extremely accurate and fairly recent. YFull does not have BY39280, but has some information on KMS75:

Actually KMS75 is listed as +1SNPs above. The equivalent at YFull is Y20993 which was formed 4800 years ago. So this particular SNP is not that recent. BY39280 would be more recent but perhaps not by much.

The Short Answer

I would say that based on the 23andMe Haplogroup and the work that Roberta has done, these two families are not related. The common ancestor is R-L23 which was formed 6400 years before present. I’ll draw a tree for the two Lentz families:

I would have thought that Roberta’s Lentz Line would be longer, but it must be an older branch or a branch with less branching in it. So from the top of the tree to the bottom is about 2,000 years, but we still have about 4,000 years to get to the useful genealogical time.

Here is an R1b Tree:

I have an arrow pointing to where my Mom’s Lentz family and Roberta’s Lentz family split. The split goes to Western Altantic for my Mom’s Lentz family and Eastern for Roberta’s Lentz family. Interesting. U152 is a major branch. U152 begins below the ‘ic’ of Atlantic. Checking the YDNA was pretty easy. That concludes the YDNA part of the Blog. Next I’ll add my Lentz autosomal DNA to DNAPainter

Adding Lentz DNA to DNAPainter

I can add the autosomal DNA to DNA Painter for the two Lentz matches I have at 23andMe. Here is one match added to my Lentz/Nicholson common ancestors:

Jereme adds important DNA that I didn’t know about before. I didn’t have any DNA from these two common ancestors previously on Chromosomes 2, 3, 4 and 15. I have less of a match with Jereme’s brother Will:

I’ll paint in Will also even though he doesn’t add new information. Jereme matches me by 95 cM compared to Will’s 72 cM.

Jereme and Will upped my percentage of maternal mapped DNA from 30 to 32%. That is a significant jump at this stage of mapping:

Here is the maternal and paternal side:

I changed Lentz/Nicholson to a sort of pea green because it was the same blue as Clarke on my paternal side. I now have 41% DNA painted overall. I assume that this went up although I didn’t check to see what it was previously.

Summary and Conclusions

  • 23andMe has a useful feature that predicts your YDNA Haplogroup at no extra charge.
  • This feature can be used to see if you are related to male relatives of the same surname. In this case, I was related to two Lentz brothers with a predicted haplogroup. Roberta Estes had Lentz relatives tested for YDNA resulting in a known Haplogroup. I checked on Roberta’s Lentz relative’s YDNA haplogroup and it didn’t match up with my Lentz relative’s Haplogroup. I then found the common Haplogroup for the two Lentz families. The common haplogroup was over 6,000 years old.
  • It would be interesting to see if this could be used in other situations.
  • This Blog was short so I painted the autosomal DNA of my Lentz relatives using DNA Painter.

 

 

 

Where Did My Pilgrim White Ancestors Live?

I have already looked at some of the places where my Pilgrim Bradford ancestors lived. The last in my line of Bradfords was Hannah T Bradford who lived in Rochester, Massachusetts where I grew up.

My White Ancestors

I only have half as many White ancestors as my Bradford ancestors:

William White

William White had a bit of a sad start in Plymouth Colony. According to the Mayflower Families:

In 1651 Gov Bradford wrote: “mr. White and his two servants died soon after their landing. His wife married with Mr. Winslow. His 2 sons are married and Resolved hath 5 children; Peregrine 2, all living.”

I can only assume that William died in the harsh New England Winter. I descend from Resolved. Peregrine was the one who was born on the Mayflower. William’s wife Susanna married Edward Winslow in May of 1621, not long after William’s death in February. That means that Edward Winslow would have raised Susanna’s young boys.

Edward Winslow (1595-1655)

After Susanna married Edward Winslow, she had a child who died young, then three boys and a girl. Here is the Winslow Property:

I didn’t realize that there was an early burial place by the water. My understanding was that the Pilgrims lived on board the ship when they first arrived. I assume that William never lived in a dwelling in Plymouth. At any rate, Resolved and his brother Peregrine must have lived at the highest location in early Plymouth.

The Bradford property is where the brick building is now on the left. That means that the Winslow property was probably near or to the right of the white building in the current photo above. The white building in the photo above is now the 1749 Courthouse Museum.

Here is Edward Winslow:

Resolved White

Here is some information from Wikipedia:

This gives a good summary of some of the places that Resolved lived including Plymouth, Scituate, Marshfield, Salem and Barbados for a short time. I haven’t found anything easy about where Resolved lived specifically other than in his early Plymouth days.

Here is where his brother Peregrine lived in Marshfield:

Here is the Winslow Cemetery where Resolved may be buried:

I also highlighted the Winslow House. This is actually the Isaac Winslow House built around 1700. So this is where Resolved perhaps ended up.

Resolved also visited Barbados:

I wonder how long it took to sail to Barbados. Resolved was there in 1657 for the sale of 1/5 of a plantation there that was in the Vassal family. Resolved was married to Judith Vassal. This is interesting due to the fact that a plantation probably involved slaves and Resolved observed this. Perhaps he had a chance to remain in Barbados but did not. At the time Resolved visited Barbados, his children were between the age of about 1 and 15.

Here is the Parish of St Michael in Barbados where the Plantation was:

Here is where Resolved lived in Massachusetts:

Resolved must have had some prior connections with Salem as he married his second wife Abigail Lord there in 1674. I would assume that his wife was a Puritan rather than a Pilgrim (who were called Separatists). This brings up the point that the White family may have not been part of the Pilgrims from Leyden but may have joined the Mayflower in London.

Samuel White Born 1646

Samuel is someone I am interested in. From what I understand he was influential in the beginnings of the Town I grew up in which is Rochester, MA. Samuel was born in Scituate. According to the Scituate Historical Society:

William Vassall of Stepney, Middlesex, England, merchant, age 42, was a passenger on the ship Blessing which arrived in New England by July, 1635. A few of the other passengers were Thomas King, age 21, Jo: Stockbridge, age 27, Ann Stockbridge, age 21 and Sara Tynkler, age 15. Vassall was granted 150 acres on Belle House Neck by the Plymouth Colony Court in 1638 and was one of the founders of the second church (South Scituate); he died at Barbados in 1655. The Lothrop records note that he was the first person to join the Scituate church “in our new meeting house, Nov 28, 1636.” Vassall’s daughter Judith Vassall, age 16, was also a passenger on the Blessing. She married Resolved White and was one of the original members of the second church (South Scituate).

Second Church Scituate is in current day Norwell. Here is a map of the Second Church Cemetery in relation to Norwell, Scituate, Marshfield and the North River:

Here is an excerpt from History of Scituate, Massachusetts: From Its First Settlement to 1831:

If this is accurate, then the places mentioned are in proximity to the Stockbridge Mill Dam shown in red below:

Here is an older map from the 1850’s:

The reddish outline is current-day Norwell. The Yellow is Marshfield. My guess is that Resolved lived in this general area. That means of course, that Samuel, his son, also lived with him here at this time.

Samuel White: From Scituate to Sandwich

According to the Mayflower Families Book,

Samuel White was in Sandwich as early as 20 May 1667 when Maj. Josiah Winslow of Marshfield, half brother of Samuel’s father, deeded “for love and good will to my kinsman Samuel White now of Sandwich.”

There must be a transcription of this deed somewhere:

Here is my attempt at figuring out the first part:

Winslow Gov

Winslow Gov

To all Christian [people?] to whom these ? ? shall come Major Josiah Winslow of that Towne? Of Marshfield in the Collonne of New Plymouth in New England ? ? And know yee that the said Major Josiah Winslow out of his ? Good Affection Love and Good Will unto his Kinsman Samuel White Now of the Towne of Sandwich in the Jurisdiction of New Plymouth in New England aforesaid and for? ? good considerations, him hereunto? Moving? Hath given granted conveyed…. Enfeoffed and confirmed; and by these? ? ? doth? Give grant convaye in feoff and confirmed? Unto the said Samuel White and his heirs for ever all that ? and ? of Land by the hounored Court of Plymouth unto him Granted ?  by Rewards? Of the said Cout  ? ? June? the ninth 1664 and June the Seventh 1665 ?; and is ? of those lands; lying upon the Easterly syde of Narrawakett? River in the Township of Middleberry; between the old and New path that goeth from the wading lake? On the said River towards Lakenham; and is commonly called the Wagons ? ; the said land given as aforesaid is four or five acres? of Meaddow lying upon the said River and West adjoining unto the Said upland, so? ? found, not ? Granted to any other ?; and the ? is an hundred and fifty acres? Most on ? bounded by said River all the northerly ?, buy the old path on the Mortherly syde; by the New Path on the Southerly Syhde; and all the easterly side? By a Marsh? ? oak ? Marsh? ? the old path; and against the Land of George Vaughan being? The Nrothward Bounds; and all the ? ? ? ; by a Marshed? Walnutt? ? standing ? unto the New Path and all the ? and the above mentioned Lands, both upland and meddow; ? with the…

Well, at least I tried. I take it the land was near a river, a new path, and old path and George Vaughan’s land. The Mill River would be a wild guess for the River mentioned:

Josiah Winslow, put another way, was Samuel’s half Uncle and a nice guy to give his nephew land in Sandwich. Here is Josiah:

Any family resemblance? Josiah was about 18 years older than Samuel.

I’m not sure why, but it appears that Resolved and Peregrine signed the deed that gave Samuel White the land in Sandwich. Perhaps this was because Samuel was in Sandwich and the deed could have been signed in Plymouth or Marshfield?

I read something like Signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of Resolved White; Peregrine White. I find it fascinating to see a record of these two. One brother took the trip across the Atlantic as a 5 year old boy. The other boy was the first born of the Pilgrims in the New World.

It is not clear when Resolved moved to Marshfield. Resolved sold land in Scituate in 1662 and was elected surveyor of highways in Marshfield in 1668.

So we see that wherever Samuel White came from, he was living in Sandwich as of 1667 when he had just turned 21 years of age. Back to the Mayflower Silver Book:

He was still in Sandwich 8 June 1671 when he and his wife Rebecca deeded land to Benjamin Church, acknowledged 8 June 1677. In 1679 he was listed as one of the proprietors of Rochester.

This shows the importance of land records. There is no record of Samuel’s marriage to Rebecca, but this shows that Samuel likely married between 1662 and 1671. I assume that Samuel sold the land to become a proprietor of Rochester.

Here is an excerpt from the History ol Mattapoisett and Old Rochester:

That means that Samuel White was one of the first inhabitants and first Selectmen of the Town of Rochester.

In 1684, Samuel would have been about 38 years old.

Where Did Samuel White Live in Rochester?

Samuel drew a home lot at Mattapoisett as opposed to Sippican. However, some of those people never occupied their lots and people were allowed to swap or take other land. According to Mattapoisett and Old Rochester:

That may be as close as I get for now:

That turns out to be less than a mile from where I live.

Penelope White 1687-1738

According to the Mayflower Families, Penelope was born in Rochester. She married Peter Crapo in 1704. The Crapo family lived on the West side of Snipatuit Road. This is perhaps the same house that Peter lived in:

Penelope would have been about 17 years old when she married Peter. Tradition says that as a boy Peter was shipwrecked on the coast of Cape Cod in 1680. If that is true he could have been born about 1670 and been about 17 years older than Penelope – say twice her age at 34 when they married.

Here is a map from the 1850’s showing where some of the Crapo’s lived at that time:

Unfortunately, most of the Crapo properties are miss-spelled. After he was shipwrecked Peter or Pierre lived with a Francis Coombs of Middleborough. At the top of the map above there is a Coombs listed. I believe that this location was an inn or tavern. Perhaps Peter’s son, my ancestor, Francis was named for Francis Coombs. I have read that Peter Crapo got together with other land owners to create a connection between the Mattapoisett River and Snipatuit Pond so the alewives (herring) could spawn in Snipatuit pond. That would have been in the area shown as Randall above. I believe that the Randall house was once a Crapo property also.

My ancestor, Greenwood Hartley bought the Philip Crapo house at the bottom right of the map. Philip was the great-grandson of Penelope White.

Summary

  • My last White ancestor Penelope died about 282 years ago. That is a long time. However, she lived in the same Town that I grew up with. That speaks of a great amount of continuity. She probably lived on the West side of Snipatuit Road on the West side of Snipatuit Pond.
  • Penelope’s father Samuel White was one of the founders of Rochester. He moved to Rochester sometime around 1675. 345 years ago!
  • I descend from Governor Bradford on another line. I hadn’t thought as much about my connection to Governor Josiah Winslow. I don’t descend from Josiah, but he was the half brother of my ancestor Resolved White and was generous to his son Samuel White.  Part of the interest in descending from Josiah is that there is a painting of him and could give some indication of what Resolved looked like. Josiah was Governor of the Plymouth Colony during King Philip’s War. I’m sure that made life difficult for Josiah.
  • I perhaps feel less connected with Resolved White. He was born into some amount of privilege and also married into a wealthy family. He sold his holdings in Barbados. Whether this was from moral or personal reasons is not certain. He lived a long a prosperous life. I suppose I hadn’t thought of Resolved living in Salem which adds some interest to life. That, and his trip or trips to Barbados.
  • Unfortunately, little is known about William White. It is even uncertain as to whether he was born in England or Holland. Many trees have him from Holland, but things I have read lately lead me to believe that he may have been born in England.

 

My Distant Pilgrim Relative Gary

I was surprised to find out while pursuing my genealogy hobby that I was related to my friend Gary. We both descend from William White of the Mayflower. Gary goes all the way with the Whites. My White line drops off at Penelope White who was born in 1687:

Tracing Gary Back to William White

Here is Gary’s dad Donald who passed away in 2015:

A quick search for Donald gave me this tree:

That gets me quickly back to 1873.

However, I’ll make my own tree also.

Donald W White 1930-2015

Donald was born in Acushnet, but lived with his family nearby in New Bedford in 1940:

Donald’s father was listed on the previous page of the Census:

Raymond and family were at 2135 Acushnet Ave:

This is the address of Kentucky Fried Chicken today. Raymond had only completed 3rd grade. His occupation was dairyman.

Raymond White 1906-1978

Apologies to Donald, but I have a long way to get back to William White of the Mayflower. Here is Raymond’s birth record from 1906:

Raymond’s father was Walter and was listed as a farmer.

Here is Raymond’s stone at the Long Plain Cemetery in Acushnet:

Only 300 more years to go.

Walter Augustus White 1873-1956

Augustus was a popular family name. Walter died the year I was born. Walter was also born in Acushnet, but his father who was also a farmer was born in Fairhaven and his mother born in Freetown based on this birth record:

Here is Walter in the 1880 Census with the rest of his family:

Augustus White 1832-1917

Findagrave.com has a lot of information on Augustus:

Augustus White, son of Phineas and Betsey (Walker) White of Livermore Maine was born September 26, 1832, in the house where he has since resided on the Mill Road at the head of White’s Factory Road in this town.

Mr. White comes from Mayflower stock, his ancestor William being one of the passengers of that good ship. The line down is as follows: William WhiteResolved WhiteSamuel White, John, John, William WhiteWilliam WhitePhineas White and Augustus.

The only education Augustus received in his boyhood days was in the district school near his home, but he has been a diligent student all his life and has acquired useful knowledge from much reading and careful observation.

His chief occupation has been the tilling of the farm on which he was born and he now has one of the largest, most productive dairy farms in this country. Assisted by his sons, he makes milk for the New Bedford market, all of which they deliver. Mr. White has served the town 12 years as school committee and been several years surveyor of highways. He was one of the leading men in the erection of the Advent chapel in the Whelden neighborhood, 44 years ago and has been a deacon of the society and superintendent of the Sabbath school during those years. Mr. White has always been a man of industry and push and now at 75 years of age, is remarkably vigorous in body and mind.

He married June 7, 1869, Angeline M. White the daughter of Merchant and Melora A. White.

Now I’m getting somewhere with this excerpt from the History of Acushnet. Gary and I have the common ancestors of Samuel White which I would have suspected. That is where Gary’s family and my family went their separate ways:

My quick version, if I got it right, is that Gary and I are 9th cousins once removed:

Another Look at My Hartley Tree

The first time I didn’t notice Gary in my tree. Now I see that he is there:

Ancestry shows as 9th cousins:

Apparently we are more closely related than I realized through John Jenkins. Who knew?

That means that John Jenkins’ granddaughter Mercy married John White and had Thomas White who had Merchant White. Then there was another Merchant white who had Angeline White who married Augustus White. It gets confusing when White marries White. The interesting thing is the Jenkins family was from Barnstable on Cape Cod originally. Who know? Perhaps Gary and I are related other ways also.

Who Was John Jenkins 1609-1685?

John Jenkins bought land in Plymouth in 1640:

Here is some more I found out about John in the Great Migration Project:

 

Above are Mary Jenkins who I descend from and Thomas Jenkins who Gary descends from.

That’s quite a bit about John Jenkins.

Back to the White Tree

Here is where Mary Jenkins came in on Gary’s line:

Also Augustus White married his third cousin Angeline White.

John White Born About 1689

Here is an interesting item that surprised me about John White the son of John White. According to the Mayflower Families Book:

Son John is apparently an illegitimate child by Martha Doty (See Plymouth Co Ct Recs 1:205). This may explain why he is not named in John’s will even though he was alive and living in Rochester when the will was written.

However, there is a much more complicated lengthy discussion on Rootsweb not all of which I can easily follow:

I think the upshot of the above discussion is that the author believes that Martha Doty had a child John White out of wedlock but that the father was John White.

DNA Testing

Some Mayflower White descendants have been tested, so it may be possible to settle the issue through YDNA testing. YDNA tests the DNA from father to son to son. There is a Mayflower YDNA Project that has three Whites in the group. They have tested markers called STRs:

I didn’t show all the results. The first two testers have tested 67 STRs and the last person tested 37 STRs. One study reported that for the 67 STR test, one STR should change, on average, every 3.5 generations. So that means that for a common ancestor such as William White of the Mayflower, some changes would be expected. So if Gary were to have his YDNA tested and the STR results were consistent with other William White descendants, it should prove that John White of 1689 was the son of John White of 1669. It would be even easier to tell if Gary did not match the haplotype of Mayflower passenger William White.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I ran into a few surprises while looking at Gary’s Mayflower lineage and how he matches with my lineage
  • The first was that Gary and I are more closely related on the Jenkins Line. I looked into some information about John Jenkins who was born about 1609.
  • The second surprise was that there was some question about Gary’s Mayflower lineage on the White Line. That is because Gary’s ancestor Martha Dotey was brought up on charges of fornication. Martha confessed to the charge though apparently no father was named. This brings into question whether her first son John was the son of her later husband John White.
  • This issue could be cleared up if Gary took a YDNA test.

 

 

Deborah’s Frazer Ancestry and DNA

I first heard from Deborah two years ago. She was interested in finding out if her Frazer heritage matched up with mine and was also interested in the DNA aspects of the genealogy. Deborah had tested at AncestryDNA and I suggested that she upload her DNA to Gedmatch to compare with other Frazer descendants. In March of 2018, I looked at Deborah’s DNA at Gedmatch and only found one Frazer match.

Based on only this one match, I didn’t follow up further. My guess at the time was that, “It may be a match from way back or from some other non-Frazer line also”.

Up To 2020

I recently heard from Deborah again, so I appreciate her keeping in touch. Here is part of Deborah’s recent email:

I have had some links to research via the ancestry thrulines which overlaps again with some of your research . I am not sure how accurate this all is but hope it is of some interest , kind regards Deborah

Deborah Frazer DNA Thru lines from Ancestry.co.uk

William Frazer 2nd Great Grandfather 1812-1887 4 DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 3rd Great Grandfather 1760 3 DNA matches

Anne Stenson 3rd Great Grandmother 1759-1848 4 DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 4th Great Grandfather 1732-1800 4 DNA matches

Private ( Query Mary Lilly 1726-1775) 4th Great Grandmother 4 DNA matches

Samuel Stinson 4th Great Grandfather 1750 – 3DNA matches

Archibald Frazer 5th Great Grandfather 1690-1749 3 DNA Matches

Mary McDowell 5th Great Grandmother 1695-1786 2 DNA Matches

Thomas Lilly 5th Great Grandfather 1695 – 3 DNA matches

Mary Browne 5th Great Grandmother 1683-1731 3 DNA matches

I checked Deborah at Gedmatch, but couldn’t find her there anymore – perhaps due to the new Gedmatch owner and the policy requiring member approval to stay in the system.

Deborah’s Frazer Tree

Here is Deborah’s tree starting with her grandfather David Frazer:

Previously, Deborah had researched up to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton. However, above, Deborah now makes the connection to Archibald Frazer and Anne Stenson. This could be the same that I have in my Frazer DNA group. I sent Deborah a copy of a chart of the Frazer/Stinson Line:

Unfortunately, I’m not an expert on this line as I descend from a different Frazer Line. However, due to intermarriage and common older ancestors, I am related to people on this line. The above chart represents people who descend from Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson and had DNA matches. The tree above does not show William Frazer as a son of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. That does not mean that he was not their son, necessarily. The one person who Deborah matched by DNA was Susan in the yellow group on the right. My feeling was that if Deborah was truly in this line she should have matched more than one person from the Frazer/Stinson Line.

Taking a Look at William Frazer of Armagh (1812-1887)

There are a few ways I could do this. One is to build out my own tree for Deborah on her Frazer side. The other would be to look at other Frazer trees. I’ll build out my own tree to see if I get the same results.

Deborah has this 1901 Census referenced on her tree:

This has David Frazer as a printer, married with three children. One interesting thing is that David was from the Church of Ireland. My Roscommon Frazer ancestors also belonged to the Church of Ireland.

Checking Other Sources for William Frazer

Building my own tree for Deborah was taking too long, so I decided to try other sources. I did a search for trees with Ann Stinson and Archibald Frazer. The first tree that comes up references my own web site:

My web site has a William born about 1804. The tree I looked up links this William to the 1834 Tithe Applotment in Derrycastle in the Parish of Ardcarn in Roscommon:

This William was  associated with an Anne (perhaps Anne Stinson Frazer – his mother?).

Deborah’s ThruLines

Deborah kindly gave me access to her DNA results so I could see her ThruLines. ThruLines is a utility that Ancestry has to connect DNA matches with common ancestors in family trees.

ThruLines to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton

For some reason, Deborah’s ThruLines focus on William Frazer:

Because of that, the ThruLines incorrectly show Deborah’s matches as half cousins where I believe they should be full cousins. All these DNA matches tend to confirm that Deborah is on the right track up to William Frazer and Letitia Singleton.

Deborah’s ThruLines to Archibald Frazer and Anne Stenson

This is the part I am more interested in:

Deborah has three DNA matches to Archibald and four DNA matches to Anne. However, there are no new DNA matches at this level, so there is no new information here:

The same is true for the next level up. If Deborah was from the Frazer/Stinson Line, I would have expected other DNA matches to other descendants of the other children of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson such as I have on my Chart above.

Any Conclusions?

At this point, I would go with my original thinking that William Frazer born 1812 was not the son of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson. If he was, I would have expected more matches with other lines from other children of Archibald Frazer and Anne Stinson. Also, I have no evidence that Archibald Frazer and Anne Frazer moved to Armagh and had a son there. It is possible, but also possible that did not happen. Here is how I picture the shared DNA matching:

There is a circle of shared matches with the Roscommon Frazer Group and a separate circle of shared DNA matches with the Armagh Frazer group. Linda matches Deborah and thus the two cirlcels with a borderline low match. This may be a false match or a match indicating an ancient Frazer or non-Frazer match.

A Sure Way To Test Frazer’s By YDNA

There is one way to show for sure if the two Frazer families are related. L.F. could take a YDNA test.

L.F. shows as a direct male descendent of William Frazer. The Frazer Line from Roscommon is well documented by YDNA as being far down on a branch of R1a type YDNA. If L.F. was to take a YDNA test, it would show if he was from the more common Frazer YDNA type of R1b or the rarer Roscommon County Frazer YDNA type of R1a.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Deborah has Frazer ancestry that goes back to County Armagh in Ireland
  • ThruLines indicated that Deborah had a connection to my Frazer ancestry in County Roscommon, Ireland
  • ThruLines show a good DNA connection with others to their common ancestors of William Frazer of Armagh and his wife Letitia Singleton.
  • Further back than that on the proposed Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson Line, no new DNA matches were added by ThruLines.
  • It appears that the shared matches for the Frazer/Stinson Line are separate from the shared DNA matches of the Frazer/Singleton Line. That means that the two lines do not appear to be related. Even though this seems like a negative result, this is a positive result as far as directing genealogical research.
  • A sure way to test if the two Frazer Lines are related would be to test LF who is a direct male descendant of William Frazer. That would tell if he was related to the County Roscommon Line of Frazers – even if that connection went back to Scotland.