I am interested in anyone with a Philip Fraser or Frazer in their ancestry, because I believe that Philip Frazer is one of my ancestors. Here is where Philip comes in for me in my Frazer grandmother’s paternal tree.
Philip Frazer was an educated guess as an ancestor for me based on the fact that James Frazer born 1804 seemed to fit in well there and other reasons.
I have built a tree based on DNA matches and probable genealogy:
My Sister’s DNA Match with LS
My sister matches with someone who shows up at AncestryDNA as LS. LS’s tree got my attention with some of the people in the paternal part of LS’s tree:
The other interesting thing is that LS has George James and Philip Fraser as being from Sligo where my ancestors came from. In addition, this family was in Ontario where a lot of my Irish Frazer and McMaster relatives ended up. I’ll get into the genealogy more later. Right now I’ll look at the DNA:
My sister and LS also match Karen. Karen is a closer relative to my sister (third cousin):
More on LS’s Genealogy
One way for me to check someone’s genealogy is to try to recreate that tree. I’ll try that for LS:
Getting back this far was fairly easy. The tricky part is making the connection from Canada to Ireland. Here is an obituary for David Watt. His wife is referred to as Jane Frazer with a ‘z’ which I prefer.
Here is Woodstock, Ontario:
George James Fraser
This appears to be George in the Woodstock Census of 1891:
However, his daughter Mary Jane or Jennie had left home by this time. G.J. was listed as an Inland Revenue Officer. This appears to be George also:
There are several of these lists. I believe that this list is from 1900. This gives a precise birth date for George. I believe that he should have been baptized at Kilmactranny Parish in Southern County Sligo. The records unfortunately are missing from that Parish for 1841 and for about 10 years before that. Having those records would have cleared some things up.
Here is George in 1881:
Unfortunately, George is incorrectly transcribed as G.B rather than G.J. It looks like George had a full house:
Here we see Jennie who was soon to be married at age 18. Also there is an apparently eldest son Philip who was likely named for G.B.’s father. Interestingly, this Philip marries a Johnston:
I say interestingly, because of the Johnstons in my tree above:
The Philip above is Philip Frazer born 1800, son of another Philip Frazer.
Back to Philip, son of George James. He died in 1925. On his death certificate, it is stated that his father was born in County Sligo.
In 1861, George was a 21 year old school teacher:
This is likely around the time that George made the move from Ireland to Ontario.
This appears to be George but is just from an index:
The birthdate is off, but the rest of the information seems right. I had no further luck finding this family in the 1871 Census for Ontario.
Getting From George James Fraser to Philip Fraser/Frazer
I looked at the various trees on Ancestry. Out of the 10 trees, four had Philip Fraser and Mary Gray as his parents. However, I couldn’t figure out how they got to that conclusion. I can make an educated guess as to where George James fits in.
Here is what I have at my Frazer Web Page:
However, I am not sure I have constructed the genealogy correctly. It is possible that the elder Philip married Jane Johnston in 1818 after his first wife died. I think that the timing works better for that.
Here is how I had the next generation:
My modified genealogy would only really have an effect on Jane above who may have been the daughter of the elder Philip.
Fitting My Tree with the Ontario Fraser Family
One thing I can tell is that the Philip Fraser of the DNA match’s tree doesn’ fit with my genealogy by date. That tree had Philip born in 1815. I have a Philip born in 1825 and the generation before that would have been born about 1800. The generation before that was born around 1776, if I have it right. George Fraser was born in 1841, so Philip born in 1825 would only be 16 then. The first Philip was born about 1776. He would have been 65 which is possible but not as likely as the middle Philip.
I’ll just put that into my DNA match/genealogy tree to see if it at least makes sense. One problem I see already is that I have Philip Frazer born 1800 being married to a Mary Taylor not Gray. That could mean:
- Taylor and Gray are both wrong
- Either Taylor or Gray are right
- Both are right: Philip had two wives both named Mary
Here is my proposed tree:
Now I have found a place-holder for LS’s line which seems to make sense. It would be nice if LS matched Martha, Richard and Barry by DNA on the green line. That would help shore up the tree. These people may want to check to see if they do match by DNA.
The unfortunate part is that both Ann Frazer and George James Frazer were born during the silent years of the Kilmactranny Parish Registers. It is possible that they had other siblings born between 1832 and 1841.
A Marriage Record for George and Jane?
This seems out of sequence but it is in order of how I am finding things.
According to the above FamilySearch transcription, John P. Frazer is the son of Philip Frazer and Mary Gray and it was he who married Jane Burgess. This is confusing. Did John P Change his name to George James? At this point FamilySearch would like me to look through 677 pages of information.
I was able to find the record on Page 166 of Volume 1:
Jane was born in Canada. John Cameron(?) was the witness. Here is Brant, not far from Woodstock:
Two Jane Burgesses?
The Jane Burgess in the marriage document above was the daughter of John Burgess and Janet Black. The Jane Burgess of the LS tree was the daughter of William Burgess and Elizabeth Ann Watt:
That means that it is possible that there were two Jane Burgesses in Ontario who married two Fraser/Frazers. So what happened to John P Frazer and Jane Burgess?
The Jane Burgess of LS’s Tree
A logical next step would be to check the Jane Burgess in LS’s tree. As per above, LS has Alexander Watt and Elizabeth Breen as the parents. That appears to come from a death record for Jane Fraser dated 1 Mar 1920. This record does have her father as William Burgess. There are some problems with the record. One is that it seems to indicate that Jane was married at the time of her death. However, her informant is Nellie Robinson, her daughter. This indeed appears to be her daughter.
Her parents are given as Jane Fraser and George J Fraser:
John P Frazer
I’m surprised that I haven’t come across John P Frazer before. I’m not so sure his middle initial is P. I couldn’t find out any more information about this John Frazer. So now I’m stuck again. I can’t find a marriage for George James Frazer and Jane Burgess. I can find a marriage for John P or G Frazer to Jane Burgess but the parents of Jane are different than the Jane married to George Fraser.
Another George James Born in Lambton County, Ontario
While I was not finding what I wanted to find, I found this birth record:
Here is a George James born to a Philip Frazer in Lambton County, Ontario in 1870. By names, there seems to be a connection. I might as well follow this Philip:
This Philip is interesting as he could be the Philip from my web page born in 1825:
In 1871, he was a farmer:
This family lived in Plympton, Lambton County near Lake Huron:
Philip’s daughter Mary died in 1920 and lists her mother’s name as Jane Hayward:
My working theory is that this Philip was the brother of George James and probably John G Frazer. Here is Philip and family including Rebecca in the 1881 Census:
So looks like I’m stuck on this line.
Back to the DNA and Shared Clustering
Shared Clustering is a program that i use to analyze AncestryDNA matches. Unfortunately, I have not run one of these for my sister Sharon. According to the Shared Clustering, here is Sharon’s information:
That is quite a few matches but less than some people’s. The matches take a long time to download, but the wait can be worthwhile. The DNA shared matches may give me a clue as to whether I am on the right track with LS. As I could not find a record matching LS to Philip Frazer, I would like to see if I can find some more confirmation. The shared match Karen was one, so three is not a bad number for genealogical confirmation but one more is always better.
Shared Clustering gives a different viewpoint than the Shared Matches at Ancestry. For example, Sharon and LS’s shared matches are:
- Charles – He has no tree, but I wrote to his wife and she said her step daughter knows something about the family history. I found her at AncestryDNA and Charles has a Johnston in his tree which is a familiar name associated with Frazer.
- Karen – I know who she is and we share the same second great-grandparents: George Frazer and Margaret McMaster
- YK – She has a branch from Ontario, but I haven’t connected with any known surnames.
After I downloaded my sister Sharon’s matches, I ran the Shared Clustering Program at 20 cM and found this:
At this level of matches (20 cM), Sharon has 40 Clusters. My third cousin Karen is in Cluster 38, while yk, Charles and LS are in Cluster 39 by themselves. However, note that Charles has a note that he correlates with Cluster 38.
Whitney in Cluster 38
I see that I have Whitney already on my Frazer DNA/Genealogy Tree:
I need to add her into my Ancestry Tree so AncestryDNA can figure out how she is related to me and show that we have Common Ancestors. I assume that Ancestry was having trouble picking up the match because it was on Whitney’s maternal side. I have written to Whitney before, but she didn’t get back to me.
Back to Cluster 39 and Charles
What Cluster 39 seems to be telling me is that yk, Charles and ls are in one Cluster, but that Charles is associated with Cluster 38 that has three known matches on my Frazer side. As I have new information on Charles’ tree, I will take a look at that. For me that means that I should create my own tree for Charles. Here is what Charles’ daughter has for Charles’ tree:
Of interest to me is Isabelle Johnston. The Johnston name comes up a lot in my Frazer genealogy, but I haven’t been able to make a connection. Also above, I mention that a Philip Fraser from LS’s tree married a Johnston.
The 1930 Census tells me that Charles Richard Beach born 1886 had a father born in Canada. In 1900 he was living with extended family (presumably his mother’s side) in New York:
I appears that Charles was living with his brother George, and his mother Ellen. The other guess is that Mary is Ellen’s mother? Here is the transcription of the death record for Ellen’s husband:
This appears to be Charles birth record from Quebec:
I’m not ready to buy in to this record, though it looks promising. It would be nice to have some confirmation. Here is another confusing document. This is an 1871 Quebec Census:
Here George is still a carter, but his wife is now Mary and born in New Brunswick. At this point, I’ll use a technique called walking away from the tree. I may come back later to take a look.
One More Shot At the DNA and Shared Clustering
This will be the everything clustering. That means, it is similar to the previous one, but it includes matches down to 6 cM.
Here, I have a lot of room for further research. Keith in the second row above is related to me on my McMaster side. He shows a correlation to Cluster 15 which is a McMaster/Frazer Cluster. Below Cluster 38 are two people with common ancestors. They are associated with Cluster 38 which is a Frazer Cluster. They should be in that cluster but they aren’t because AncestryDNA Shared Matches only go down as far as 20 cM. Michael and SM match Sharon below that level.
TT At Cluster 40
I notice there is a TT in Cluster 40 with a good tree. This tree includes a John Frazer. I wonder why I haven’t looked at this before or why I haven’t put TT into a Frazer group. Here is TT’s maternal side:
This gets me back to the genealogy:
Here is Minnie (Amelia in the tree above) in Missouri in 1880. She was born in New York and her father was born in Ireland.
Here she is in 1860. She apparently also went by Emelia or Amelia:
Here she is said to be born in Ohio.
Here is the 1855 Census in Troy City, NY:
This puts John in the US in Vermont at about 1838. At this point, I’ll cheat a little and look at my web page.
The note about John going to the USA before 1830 is from an old genealogy. Here is a tree from the same old genealogy:
Here is a John Tree I drew a few years ago when I wrote a Blog about Marilee:
I also found this expanded view tree that I made:
When I add in TT’s Line, I get this:
If I have guessed correctly with my tree, TT would be my sister Sharon’s 5th cousin once removed.
Summary and Conclusions
- I would have liked to have tied up the loose ends from this Blog, but at least I have put the research out there.
- My sister Sharon had a DNA match with someone who had George James Fraser, son of Philip Fraser and Mary Gray
- I was able to trace the genealogy back to George James Frazer but could not find any evidence that his parents were Philip Frazer and Mary Gray. Perhaps it is from local family knowledge.
- I was able to to find a marriage record for a John G or P Frazer son of Philip Frazer and Mary Gray. He was married to a Jane Burgess but the parents of this Jane Burgess were different than the parents of the Jane Burgess in the tree of my sister’s DNA match.
- Running the Shared Clustering Program for my sister gave some additional hints.
- One extra hint involved TT with John Frazer Ancestry.
- I gave a possible connection for TT going back to the Frazers of North Roscommon County, Ireland.