In my previous Blog, I looked at the new Butler Haplogroup. It turned out that these were actually two new haplogroups.
The two new SNPs are both in the I2 Haplogroup. They are I-Y129564 and I-FT241564. Here is what the genealogy looks like on the Richard Butler side.
I’m not sure I did the tree right, as technically, Richard’s son should be below Richard. I just meant to show that they both had the two SNPs shown above.
These two SNPs formed between the time of birth of the common ancestor between Richard and the Butler from England. I don’t know when that common ancestor was born. I’ll say it was 1700 to be conservative. Richard was born in 1932. The means that these two SNPs formed in about 200 to 232 years. As SNPs form on average between 83 and 144 years, this time period makes sense.
English Butler Private SNPs
The English Butler who is I-Y128364 has 2 private variants:
Here they are:
If the English Butler has a close relative who does the BigY test, these two Private Variants would form their YDNA Branch.
I’ll use YBrowse to find out more about the English Butler’s private variants:
Thiss position number shows up as BY122010
This SNP was discovered when the English Butler did his BigY test in 2018:
For some reason, this SNP was discovered a year earlier:
I retyped the tree for what is a likely outcome for the English Branch of Butlers:
At the top is the Butler/Whitson ancestor. The Butler tree is on the left. Now I have Richard’s son below Richard. This shows four BigY testers. Notice, sometimes I put an I before the SNP name and sometimes not. Either way is OK. All these are within the I2 Haplogroup. There is a 30,000 year difference between I1 and I2:
The above depiction is from the Eupedia website.
The Batt Line from I-Y128591 has 5 Private Variants:
I could do the same exercise that I did for the English Butler, but I won’t. If a close relative of Batt were to take a BigY test, that would likely name the 5 SNPs that have formed in the previous 700 years.
My Brother-In-Law’s Private Variants
My Brother-in-law still has apparently about 16 private variants. I haven’t seen them yet, but his father Richard has 0 private variants and the average private variants between father and son is 8. From Richard’s Non-Matching Variants:
These are Richard’s non-matching variants compared to his son, the Butler living in England and Batt. The fact that both my brother-in-law and EB (English Butler) have BY28891 and BY29432 seems significant. The fact that Richard doesn’t share these SNPs with his son or EB suggests that his son and EB share these SNPs with each other.
Here is Richard’s results for this SNP:
This shows Richard had only one positive read out of about 10 for this SNP. EB, on the other hand, had about 13 good reads:
Let’s take this SNP up a step to Batt:
Batt actually had 9 good reads, but because Richard had a lousy test, it was not originally included. That means that this SNP should be added to the Butler/Whitson Block:
The SNP could even be further upstream, but it is likely where I show. Putting a new SNP in this Block would not increase the distance between Butler and Batt, but would increase the number of years between Butler, Batt/Whitson and the next closest YDNA relative on the tree. These next matches are quite distantly related and have ancestors from Scotland and the Russian Federation:
I’ll check this SNP, to see if it follows the same pattern. In this case, Richard has a much better read:
There is a little arrow at the location of the read.
EB has a bit of a wild read:
I say wild because the Genotype is C and the mutation shows as changing first to A and then to G, but mostly to G like Richard’s results.
Next, I’ll check Batt:
This shows some confusion in the test:
Batt’s faded reads were low quality and the mutation apparently also called the genotype came out as T. There were more than 10 reads of C > G. There is also tow more pages of results for Batt:
Above is the last page. The second page had some more faded T’s. This last page has a good read for a C > A which appears to correspond to EB’s C > A reads, though I think EB’s reads were lower quality. Bottom line is that I think that FTDNA should also add this SNP to the Butler/Whitson Block, but I don’t know all of FTDNA’s standards. If they do, my brother-in-law’s results would be the tippng point.
This is the kind of manual review that FTDNA will be doing with my brother-in-law’s new BigY 700 results. This, in addition to looking at his Private Variants.
Looking At the Butler YDNA Project and Ancestry
There are 599 members of the Butler YDNA Project. There are 5 members who mention Wexford in their ancestry:
- Two Butlers are I1,
- two are I2 and
- one is R1b. R1b is traditionally Irish, though more detail would be needed as this could include England or other parts of Europe also.
Richard is not included in the Wexford Butlers, even though his ancestry probably goes back there. I have him in the YDNA Butler Project as having Kilkenny ancestry as that is as far back as I’ve gotten in the genealogy.
Butlers with Kilkenny Ancestry
I also see five Butlers who show Kilkenny Ancestry:
- One I2 – This is Richard, but he probably will end up being listed as from Wexford.
- One R1a – R1a could indicate Scandinatvian origin.
- Three R1b’s – However, two of these have the Fitzpatrick name
That means that, in this unscientific survey, Wexford Butlers are more likely to be I2 or I1 but less likely R1b. Due to the results including Fitzpatricks, the results for KIlkenny seem inconclusive.
When I expand the list to Ireland, I get this:
This seems to indicate that the further away from Wexford you get, the more likely it is that your Butler ancestor will be from the R1b group. There is only one R1a which I would associate more with the I1 and I2 Groups. The R1a ancestor is from Glenmore which is interesting as it seems to be in the area where my wife’s Butlers were from:
Glenmore is in the area of Kilkenny that is near Counties Waterford and Wexford.
Summary and Conclusions
- I looked at the Private Variants for a BigY Butler tester from England. He is the closest BigY match to the two American Butler testers.
- It is believed that the common Butler ancestor for these three BigY testers is in Wexford. I drew a BigY tree for what would likely happen if the a close relative of the English Butler BigY tester was to also do the BigY test.
- The next closest BigY tester has the Batt surname, but can trace his ancestry back to England under the Whitson surname.
- I looked at some non-matching Variants between my brother-in-law, father-in-law, the other Butler Tester and a Batt BigY tester and showed where they may fit in.
- I looked at the YDNA data for the FTDNA Butler Project. This suggests that the Wexford Butlers are more likely to the I1, I2, or R1a as compared to R1b. R1b is considered a more native Irish YDNA type. I1, I2, and R1b came later in Irish history – perhaps as part of a Norman conquest.
- I’m still waiting for FTDNA to finish their manual review of my brother-in-law’s Private Variants.