Update on Frazer YDNA: Rodney’s Upgrade from BigY 500 to BigY 700

I have been writing quite a bit lately on Frazer YDNA. There are few reasons for this. One is that the information has been changing gradually as the two new Frazer Haplogroups are rolling out. The second is because the discovery of these two new Haplogroups is important. It is important not only for the four testers, but also for all the hundreds of the Frazer “Clan” who descend from Archibald Frazer who lived in Roscommon, Ireland in the early 1700’s. These new YDNA developments are equivalent to a major genealogical find. However, YDNA results are more written in stone than genealogifcal finds. Once you have your YDNA results, it is very clear that if you have these SNPs you are from these Frazer Lines and if you don’t, you are not from thse Lines.

Dating the New Frazer Haplogroups

There are a few ways to date a YDNA tree. I’ll use the dates that we think are right with Frazer genealogy where we know that.

The important dates are for the common ancestors of the four YDNA testers shown at the bottom of the tree above. Those dates are 1690, 1804 and 1836. Here I’ve put the dates on Rick’s Block Tree:

[Edit: The 1792 in the image above should be 1836.]

The tree is reversed from the genealogical tree. Rick is on the right Branch with Paul. From what we can tell, YP6489 was formed about 1200 AD. YP6489 is representative of the three SNPs in the Block. We don’t know which SNP was formed first, but we may assume that these three SNPs formed equally between the time period of 1200 and 1545. Next is the new subgroup of FT421618. This Haplogroup seems to be explained by the Frazier/Frasher test results that we are waiting for. There were quality issues, so his sample is being retested. Perhaps FTDNA had enough information to say he would be FT421618. Again, we don’t know when these three SNPs formed – just that they formed between around 1545 and 1690.

1690 is an important date as that is the date we are using for the birth of our common Roscommon Ireland Frazer ancestor – Archibald Frazer. On the James Frazer Branch, SNPs Y151390 and FT421607 had to form between Archibald Frazer born 1690 and Rodney and Jonathan’s common ancestor. That common ancestor was Thomas Henry Frazer born about 1792. On the Archibald Line, three SNPs in the Haplogroup Y85652 formed between 1690 and 1804. The bottom of the chart brings us down to the birth dates of the three testers. The private variants were formed in the James line between 1792 and the birth dates of the Rodney and Jonathan. The private variants in the Archibald line were formed between 1804 and the birth dates of Paul and Rick.

R-Y85652 – The Archibald Line

Y85652 consists of a group of three SNPs. These were previously Private Variants for Paul. In order for Paul’s three Private Variants to become SNPs, Rick had to test positive for these Private Variants and Rodney and Jonathan had to be negative for these.

Y85652

Here are Rick’s results for Y85652:

The pink column is at the position on the Y Chromosome of 8162400 which is now Y85652. The T in that column shows that Rick had the mutation from A to T.

Paul had similar results:

Every horizontal line is called a read. Paul’s results go off the screen. That means that he had more reads than Rick which just means he had a higher confirmation than Rick of Y85652.

Next, I’ll look at Jonathan’s results. We expect the results to be negative:

Right at the position of 8162400, Jonathan shows no mutations from T to C. That means that he doesn’t have SNP Y85652. To satify curiosity, here are Rodney’s results:

Rodney had fewer reads, but is clearly negative for Y85652 at the position in the middle of the image above under the down arrow. If I went through this exercise for Y102792 and Y112046, I should get the same results.

Y151390 – The James Line

Here are Rodney’s test results:

He is clearly positive. Jonathan has a question mark for this position:

Jonathan didn’t have enough reads at this location. However, for all of his 7 reads, he shos the mutation from C to T at this position.

Paul aslo had a question mark at this position. Here are Paul’s results:

This was a bit of surprise. Let’s look at Rick’s results. He will have to be negative for this position for the James Line to get the Haplogroup of Y151390:

Fortunately, Rick has good results showing that he is negative for Y151390. Because Paul is in a group with Rick, Paul is presumed negative for Y151390 also.

FT421607 on the James Frazer Line

I’m curious about this SNP also. Rodney has good results:

Jonathan has only one read at this position:

But it is positive. That makes it important for Paul and Rodney to be negative for FT421607. Here are Paul’s results:

Paul’s read didn’t make it over to position #7788709.

Rick has much better results:

That means that Paul is again presumed negative based on Rick’s negative results and we end up with the James Line SNP of FT421607. FT421607 is based on only one good positive test and one good negative test. But because the negative test was already in a sold group consisting of Paul and Rick, that meant that Rodney and Jonathan had to be in the other group. The bottom line is that the James Line and Archibald Line Haplogroup results are dependent on each other.

Here is FT421607 which now appears at YBrowse listed as a new 2021 SNP:

This gives the location of FT421607 on the Y Chromosome and what the mutation was (G to T). It also gives the location of the SNP under the Frazer Haplogroup of YP6489 and the James Line Haplogroup of Y151390.

Private Variants

If it weren’t for the Private Variants, I would think that FTDNA’s manual review has been completed. However, the numer of Private Variants of the testers don’t match up with the Private Variants shown on the Block Tree. For example, Rick shows that he has nine Private Variants:

Paul shows one Private Variant:

I’m not sure why Rick has so many Private Variants. It may be because his BigY 700 covered more than the older BigY 500 tests. Their average numer of SNPs should be five. The average number of Private Variants shows three:

Rodney and Jonathan’s Private Variants (James Frazer Line)

The Block Tree above shows that Jonthan and Rodney have an average of 4 Private Variants. Jonathan shows that he has two Private Variants:

Rodney has 7 Private Variants:

This makes me wonder if Rodney actually had the BigY 700. A review of Rodney’s FTNDA history is interesting:

Rodney did have the BigY 700 done. This makes sense. However, it says that his BigY-700 was ordered 8/26/2020 and completed just 1/14/2021. I talked to Rodney’s niece who said that she did order the BigY 700. Mystery solved.

Y-HAP-Backbone Tests for Rodney and Jonathan

In addition, it looks like two Y-HAP-Backbone tests were ordered and one was completed. The one ordered on 1/11/2021 has not yet completed. Here is Rodney’s Order Status:

Here is Jonathan’s order history:

I’m not sure how to interpret what FTDNA is saying. It appears that more tests were ordered for Rodney than for Jonathan. Here is some information from FTDNA. I don’t know if itis up to date:

I checked Paul and Rick’s order history and no backbone SNP Tests were ordered there. That is interesting because it tells me a few things:

  • FTDNA is sure of Paul and Rick’s new Haplogroup of Y85652
  • FTDNA came up with Rodney and Jonathan’s Haplogroup based on one positive test from the James Line and one negative test from the Archibald Line
  • FTDNA would like more positive testing for Rodney and Jonathan to confirm their Haplogroup of Y151390, so they ordered Y-HAP-Backbone tests.

This should mean that we will have a pretty good Haplogroup for Rodney and Jonathan, that will be proven once the backbone tests have been completed.

This shows Jonathan’s pending results:

Here are Rodney’s pending results:

This seems to indicate that Rodney’s BigY700 is not yet complete. However, these are Rodney’s matches:

This seems to indicate that as Rodney matches Rick (who has taken the BigY 700) in the 800,000 level (under Shared Variants above) and Jonathan (who has taken the BigY 500) at the 600,000 level that perhaps Rodney’s BigY 700 is completed except for the Backbone test.

Another Thought on the Backbone Test and the Frazier/Frasher Results

It is possible that the need for these backbone tests came about due to the pending results of the Frazier/Frasher BigY 700 tests. At least, the tests were ordered around the time that a new Haplogroup appeared on the Frazer Tree:

This new Haplogroup which seems to be a result of the pending
Frazier/Frasher BigY results. This new Haplogroup appeared around the time of the backbone tests were ordered for Rodney and Jonathan. So these backbone tests may have been ordered to back up the new Frazier/Frasher results, to verify the James Line Haplogroup of Y151390, or both.

Summary and Conclusions

  • While looking at Rick’s new test results and the resulting new Haplogroups for the James and Archibald Frazer Lines, I was surprised to see that backbone tests had been ordered for Jonathan and Rodney from the James Line
  • Also I was surprised that Rodney had a BigY test that was only recently completed (or is being completed).
  • Now that I can see the SNP test results and the SNP results at YBrowse, it makes it easier to see how FTDNA has made/is making their decisions.
  • I can probably see the results of the testing because Rodney’s BigY 700 seems to be completed. That testing in conjunction with Rick’s recent BigY 700 testing is likely the reason why there is a new James Frazer Line Haplogroup.
  • It appears that the results of Jonathan’s and Rodney’s backbone tests should come out around the time that the Frasher/Frazier BigY 700 test results are due.
  • The result of all this testing is that we will have a really good Frazer YDNA Tree solidly documented by BigY testing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A New Proposed James Frazer Line YDNA Haplogroup

In my previous Blog, I mentioned how Rick’s new BigY 700 test results created a sort of tipping point. His test in conjunction with the previous three BigY tests resulted in three changes in the Frazer YDNA Tree. One of those changes was the likely creation of a new James Line YDNA Haplogroup of R-Y151390. I say likely, because FTDNA’s manual review has not yet been completed.

However, when I look at the Frazer Block Tree today, I see that there is already another change from yesterday:

For some reason, FTDNA has split the old Frazer umbrella group of R-YP6489 into two. YP6489 is now the older group with a younger group of R-FT421618 under it. This is very unusual, because without an additional tester, there should be no way to know that FT421618 is younger than Y6489.

Some Speculation on R-FT421618

This is another mystery, as I don’t know how FTDNA could know that there were two groups unless someone else has tested. The only thing I can think of is that they may have access to other information such as the initial Frazier/Frasher BigY results that we have been waiting for. This test had quality issues and the results are now due around the end of February.

Let’s assume that FTDNA is looking at initial Frasher/Frazier results. Previous dating by the FTDNA YDNA administrator for our Frazer group had set YP6489 at around 1200 AD. The two Frazer Lines (Archibald and James) had to have started around 1720. This is about the date we are guessing Archibald and James were born, though we believe that Archibald was older. From looking at the two groups of Y6489 and FT421618, they both have three SNPs in each. That means that FT421618 could have formed about halfway between between Y6489 and the James Frazer and Archibald Frazer Haplogroups. 1200 to 1720 is 520 years. That means hat we should be able to date FT421618 at the halfway point between 1200 and 1720 or at 1460.

R-Y151390: The New James Frazer Line YDNA Haplogroup

This is what I set out to look at but got side-tracked. In my previous Blog, I was struggling to see how FTDNA had arrived at the conclusion that this would be the new Haplogroup for the James Frazer Line based on my inability to find test results for certain SNPs or Private Variants. I brought my questions to the FTDNA – BigY Facebook Group and got some great results. This was the bottom line answer after much discussion from David Vance who is very accomplished and respected in the field of YDNA:

ok so YFull thinks Paul is positive for Y151390; FTDNA thinks not. That’s something you’d probably have to delve into the BAM file to figure out, but the only difference would be that Y151390 might belong above as an equivalent in the R-YP6489 block rather than only above Rodney and Jonathan. Based on their negative results for the R-Y85652 block and equivalents, the basic branching structure either way is still as shown on the Block Tree.

Here is some more background. Here is Jonathan’s results show in the non-block tree diagram:

FT421618, which I discussed above, is in yellow because Jonathan was Presumed Positive for this SNP. That means that his test results were not as thorough as needed for Jonathan to be positive for this SNP. However, based on others being positive for this SNP, he had to be positive for it also. Although I can’t find Jonathan’s detailed test results for Y151390 (the new James Frazer Line Haplogroup), the green dot means that Jonathan tested positive for this SNP. FT421607 is much more confusing as the grey dot means Presumed Negative. If Jonathan is showing as having this SNP, why wouldn’t he be Presumed Positive for it? Furthermore Jonathan is showing Presumed Negative for Y85652, Y102972 and Y112046. I know that is not the case, as I have looked at his results for these three SNPs and he shows as Tested Negative. Here is Jonathan’s results for Y85652:

I had to shrink my screen to show all of Jonathan’s reads that show he tested negative for Y85652. If he had tested positive, there would be a letter T in the column under the tiny arrow above. That tells me that, despite what the grey dots say, that Jonathan tested negative for this SNP and the other two under Y85652. This negative testing by Jonathan and Rodney made it very clear that Paul and Rick were in Y85652 and that they were not.

Is Paul Presumed Negative for Y151390?

That appears to be the case, but I showed above that these dots are not always right:

Here Paul shows as Presumed Negative for Y151390 and FT421607. I looked up FTDNA’s definition of Presumed Negative:

Presumed Negative – You are presumed negative for the primary SNP or variant. A person is presumed negative for sibling branches of SNPs for which you have tested positive.

It seems like the definition could have been stated more clearly. David Vance wrote to me:

so presumed negative, but not confirmed negative.
Are Rodney and Jonathan confirmed negative for R-Y5652 and the other two equivalent SNPs in that block? I’m starting to think those are the driving force for this split, and Paul and Rick are presumed negative for Y151390 because they’re positive for those three SNPs and Rodney and Jonathan are negative so that drives the branching decision rather than Y151390.
It seems that what FTDNA is saying is that Rick and Paul are clearly in Y85682 and that Rodney and Jonathan are clearly out of that group. That means that if Jonathan and Rodney are in FT151390, then Paul and Rodney have to be out of that group even though Paul had some indications on his test that he might be positive for FT151390. At least I think that is what happened.
Let’s see what Rick shows for his newer BigY 700:
The results are similar to Paul’s except that Rich test positive for the new Frazer SNP FT421618.

Another help at Facebook was that someone found Y151690 at YBrowse when I could not. I was doing the search wrong. Here it is:

This seemed like an older SNP based on the Y prefix and it is dated at 2018. The Y prefix on the SNP means YFull.

Summary and Conclusions

  • By reaching out to the BigY community on Facebook, I was able to find more resources to answer my Frazer YDNA questions.
  • At the very least, I am documenting the changes as they are happening with the Frazer YDNA tree
  • I tried to explain how the James Frazer Line was formed. However, without seeing the testing data for some of the SNPs, it is difficult to accurately describe the process
  • There was an unusual split in the umbrella Frazer Haplogroup of Y6489. This seems to be only explained by FTDNA using the partial results of the Frazier/Frasher results for which we are waiting.

 

Two New Frazer YDNA Haplogroups: R-Y151390 and R-Y85652

Family Tree DNA has issued the Frazer family two new Haplogroups as seen in Rick’s block tree below:

R-Y151390 and R-Y85652

I was only expecting one new Haplogroup for the Archibald Frazer Branch (shown as “Your branch” above. Previously, I was disapointed that Rodney’s previous test did not form a new branch for the James Frazer Line. Apparently Rick’s BigY test also gave FTDNA the confidence to create a James Frazer Branch shown in the bottom left portion of the Block Tree above.

The James Line and the Archibald Lines were previoiusly under R-YP6489 which is now an umbrella group over the two new Frazer subgroups.

R-Y85652

This Archibald Frazer Branch came out as predicted by the R1a – L664 FTDNA Project Administrator Martin. The Archibald Frazer Branch is the one below near the date 1804:

I added the dates in black above from my previous Blog. Apparently the manual review has not completed (or started?) yet. My understanding is that there is a mechanical/automated review first before the manual review. Note that the Private Variants do not line up. Martin has Rick with 10 Private SNPs. The Block tree shows an average number of three private variants between Paul and Rick. Rick’s Private Variant List at FTDNA has gone down to nine pressently:

It’s a puzzle trying to find the difference between Martin’s list and FTDNA’s. Martin has the additional Private Variant numer of 11683336. If Rick had 13 private variants and three went to the new Archibald Frazer Line, then he should have 10 left.

11683336

Here is 11683336 at YBrowse:

This must be a new Private Variant as it has no name yeat at YBrowse. This Private Variant may have gone up to the umbrella group of YP6489. Here is Rick’s previous Block Tree:

The old YP6489 had five SNPs. The new group has six:

FT421618 is the new SNP in that group. That means that Rick’s BigY results ended up changing the umbrella Frazer group of YP6489 as well as creating two new groups (for Archibald and James Frazer) under that group.

More on FT421618

The FT series is FTDNA’s newer SNPs. As seen by the fact that YBrowse is not yet aware of this SNP, this must be a brand new SNP. In order for this position to be a true Private Variant for Rick, it has to show as negative in Rodney, Jonathan and Paul. FTDNA probably looked at their results and saw that Rodney, Jonathan  and Paul tested for this posisiton and it wasn’t clear that they didn’t test positive for this position.

Here is Rick’s results:

What this shows is that Rick is very positive for this SNP. 10 good reads is usually OK. He has many more than 10 good reads.

Here are Paul’s results:

There is a little arrow where the results should be, but there is nothing there. That is probably what is called a no-call.

Here are Jonathan’s results:

Jonathan has four good reads. Remember that for Rick to have this position as a Private Variant, the others have to be negative for this position. Jonathan didn’t have enough reads to give him this SNP on his own, but because Rick tested really well for it, then Rick and Jonathan must both have this SNP. That is how it got added to the Frazer Umbrella Haplogroup.

Finally, we look at Rodney:

Rodney has only one good read for this SNP, so Rick confirms this single read.

Where Does R-Y151390 Come From?

This is the new James Frazer Line Haplogroup that FTDNA is showing on their Block Tree, I am having trouble finding this SNP perhaps because it has not been on a tree before. When I search on YBrowse:

When I search for Y151390 at FTDN, BY151390 shows up which is a different SNP. Without knowing what position Y151390 is, I cannot do further analysis on it. I have one more place to look. Here is Jonathan’s non-Block Tree at FTDNA:

When I hover over the SNPs under R-Y151390:

The first is Positive and the second is presumed negative. However, I still don’t know what position that Y151390 is at. That means that I can’t figure out how FTDNA arrived at their decision.

A Google search for this SNP revealed that I had mentioned Y151390 in at least one of my old Blogs:

The answer appears to be at YFull. After clicking around a while at YFull, this appears to be the position of Y151390:

For some reason, this named SNP was perhaps never uploaded to YBrowse:

So it appears that FTDNA got the name of its SNP for the James Frazer Branch from YFull. I believe that the Y prefix is from YFull. Further it is unclear how my cousin Paul was listed under Y151390 at YFull and is now not in that group at FTDNA.

FT421607

This is the other SNP in the new YDNA Tree for the James Frazer Line. I can’t find it right now listed as being tested for either Jonathan or Rick. That means that it must be still listed under the position number. As I don’t know what the position number was, I can’t find the test results for the position. An FT prefix refers to a new SNP by FTDNA. Here are the search results for Jonathan:

 

Summary and Conclusions

  • Recently FTDNA came out with three important developments for our Frazer group. One was expected and two were not.
  • What was expected was that there would be a new Haplogroup for the Archibald Frazer Line based on three different SNPs
  • The first unexpected thing was that there would be a new SNP added to the now umbrella of R-YP6489. This group is now over the two Frazer Lines of Archibald and James. This new SNP could theoretically make the age of YP6489 older by about 100 years.
  • The second unexpected thing was that a new Haplogroup formed for the James Line. I had expected this to happen when Rodney did a BigY test but it didn’t happen. This new Haplogroup is R-Y151390. I was unable to see how FTDNA arrived at this conclusion. I think that it will be clear as the manual review progresses.
  • Hopefully, subsequent review will confirm this new James Line Haplogroup
  • Rick’s new test results in conjunction with the previous three Frazer BigY tests has resulted in a quantum leap in the Frazer YDNA Tree. These results are helpful in a quite recent timeframe. They cover the time from ancient history up to the 1800’s when the genealogical records became more reliable.

 

My Look at an R1a Administor’s Review on Frazer BigY Results

Sorry for the awkward title on the Blog. Things are moving quite quickly after a 4 month wait for Frazer BigY results. I wrote my first review the day the initial results came out on December 29th. Martin’s initial review came out on January 2, 2021. Happy New Year.R1

Martin’s New S2880 Tree

Martin, who live in the Netherlands, is the L664 Project Administrator for FTDNA’s R1a YDNA Project. Here is L664 on the left of the image below:

 

This is from a 2015 R1a Tree.  At that time, L664 was dated around 3,000 BC.  L664 is in blue on the bottom left of the image above. Martin has updated what he calls Section 2b or S2880 as of January 2, 2021. Here is where that is on the bottom left side of the 2015 tree:

 

Here is where S2880 is on Martin’s new tree:

The date for S2880 is about 1800 BC:

Here are the four Frazer BigY testers on the tree:

Here is a more close-up version:

Above YP6489 is the date 1200 AD. Below that box is 1600 AD. That is an important jump as it brings us into more of a genealogical time-frame. It is also important to understand the what these two dates mean. It says that the SNP YP6489 (which is actually a group of SNPs) formed about 1200 AD. The shared group of Frazers go back to 1600 AD (by DNA). This is probably 1690 or so by our genealogy, so a pretty good agreement. However, others outside our group who descend from our 1690 Roscommon Frazer and who share YP6489 could have have an earlier shared date. We are currently awaiting BigY results for a Frazier/Frasher who may fit into this category. His results should show where he fits in.

The last four vertical lines are the Frazers in our group. They are Rodney and Jonathan in the James Frazer Branch. The last two are Paul and Rick in the Archibald Frazer Line. They are the two with all the projected private SNPs.

Martin’s Review

Rick and Paul’s Shared Private SNPs

This is the most important part, because these shared private SNPs willl become a new Frazer YDNA branch. Martin writes:

You have 13 private SNP’s and I found that you share 3 of your private SNP’s with the private SNP’s of Frazer #[number deleted for privacy]. This means you both create a new subclade downstream Subclade YP6489, which I have called Y85652.  

In my first review, I only found two private SNPs that Paul and Rick shared. Martin was able to find three:

These three are shown in the block where the bolded Y85652 is. Here were the two variants that I found:

Positions 8162400 and 21457649

These were the two that I found. Martin has these as SNPs Y85652 and Y112046. In my previous Blog, I had identified that Rick and Paul had matching SNPs Y85652 and Y112046. So that looks like we agree.

Position 16784516 aka Y102972

This is the posiition that Martin found and that I didn’t see in my initial review. Here is my spreadsheet:

I Show that Rick and Rodney have position 16784516 as a non-matching variant but that Rick and Jonathan do not. I may have deleted this entry by mistake. Actually I see this variant above on Jonathan’s list, so I just did not match these correctly:

You have to think backwards with these lists. So if Rick has non-matching variants with both Rodney and Jonathan who are in the James Line. That means that he must have matching variants at those locations with Paul in the Archibald Frazer Line.

Here is Richard Frazer born 1830:

Here is George Frazer born about 1838:

Assuming that this is right (and it appears to be) that means that there was on average one SNP mutation every generation for Archibald Frazer born 1720, Philip Frazer born 1758 and James Frazer born 1804. Also this assumes that we have the genealogy right. We don’t know which ancestor had which mutation. However, it would be possible to find that out if we had descendants from each of these lines test. That is also assuming that there is an unbroken male descendant in each of these lines.

Here is one of Martin’s comments:

Normally we find in the BigY-700 on average a number of 100 years per SNP (or one SNP mutation in every 4-5 generations). So when we assume the Frazer family splits around 1600 AD in 4 branches, then you expect on average for each about 4 private SNP’s. You and #444958 have now about 12-13 SNP’s downstream subclade YP6489 and the other two Frazer’s only 1-3 SNP’s. But sometimes we see large differences in the SNP mutation rate in individual cases.

My opinion is that a male generation was longer between 31 and 38 years so on average 34.5 years. Of course this varies at different times and in different places. Still, with my version, there would be a new SNP every three generations as opposed to the one generation we are seeing here.

The bottom line is that I see my mistake and Martin and I are in agreement on the number of matching private variants that Rick and Paul have in the Archibald Frazer Line.

A Side Thought on Male Frazers

A little ways above, I mentioned the need for an unbroken male line for Frazer YDNA testing. Here is the line of Archibald Frazer born about 1778 and Ann Stinson. This Archibald was the son of Archibald born about 1720 and Mary Lilley:

Out of about 27 or so who tested for autosomal DNA under the Archibald Line born about 1720, I see only about two who would be eligible for YDNA testing. If these two tested, it would confirm this line by YDNA. Their common ancestor would be Archibald born about 1778.

On the James Frazer Line the first two circled on the bottom have taken the BigY test.

There are two others on the left hand side who haven’t taken the YDNA test.

Rick and Paul and Private Variants

To me the private variants are not as important as the shared SNPs. These are variants that should describe a line after the shared ancestor of the two testers.

So Rick’s Private Variants would describe his line starting with Richard Patterson Frazer. Paul’s private variants describe his lineage starting with George Frazer born about 1838. George is my second great-grandfather.

Here is what Martin has to say about Rick’s Private Variants:

You and #444958 have now about 12-13 SNP’s downstream subclade YP6489 and the other two Frazer’s only 1-3 SNP’s. But sometimes we see large differences in the SNP mutation rate in individual cases. I have also checked your 10 private SNP’s in the Yfull results of #444958, but for these 10 private SNP’s of yours, 8 gave a negative result and 2 gave a “no-call” because these two were not tested in his BigY-500 test.  

I am a bit confused by Martin’s use of what he calls downstream SNPs or private SNPs.

These are the numbers in the last yellow boxes for Rodney, Jonathan, Paul and Rick. Paul currently has 4 private SNPs. Because of his three matches with Rick, that will go down to one. However, Martin adds in private eight private SNPs identified by YFull.

Here are some of Paul’s ‘Novel’ Variants at YFull:

I highlighted the first Private SNP that Martin has identified on Paul’s yellow box above. Paul has two more Novel SNPs under his Best quality tab. I see that some on the YFull list say private and some say up to R-YP6489. According to YFull:

The words up to [name of subclade]  after a Novel SNP means that the eventual location of the SNP may be as far in the past as the named subclade or closer to the present than the current Terminal Hg.

That means that they aren’t sure if those SNPs belong in with YP6489 or after it. Just another way to slice and dice things. For the SNPs that say ‘private’, they must be after YP6489 for sure.

Rick then shows 10 private variants. These also don’t make sense in a way. If these are valid, then these would all be in five generations of his Richard Patterson Frazer line. That would mean that there were two mutations per generation. I’ll just depend on Martin’s analysis for now and wait to see if FTDNA’s manual review reduces these SNPs at all.

Dating the YDNA Tree

We can use what we know about Frazer genealogy to get better dates on this tree. The date of ca 1600 is probably a bit early. We think that the father (probably Archibald) of the Archibald and James Lines was born around 1690. Our best bet at dating is from the Elphin Census:

For sake of argument, we’ll say that Archibald Sr was born in 1690 and died at age 50 or so around 1740.  Perhaps Mary was younger and born in 1695. Let’s say she had Archibald in 1718 and James in 1720. We’ll say they both married at age 25. We know that James married in 1745. He had two children by 1749. We’ll say they were only age 1 and 3 at the time. Archibald could have married in 1743 and had children aged 1 3 and 5 in 1749. Just a guess.

All this to say that Archibald Frazer Senior could not have been born 1600. I would stick to 1690 and put that date in where the 1600 is. Then we know that the common ancestor for Rick and Paul is James Frazer who was born about 1804:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I appreciate Martin’s quick and thorough review of Rick’s test results and his incorporation of those results into Setion 2b of his L664 Tree
  • The new name Frazer Branch in the Archibald Frazer line will include three SNPs
  • I was able to identify four people who would qualify for YDNA testing from my charts of Frazers who have already taken autosomal tests. These people are rare because they have to have unbroken male line Frazer ancestry
  • I looked at Rick and Paul’s private variants briefly and will wait for the FTDNA manual review on these.
  • I looked at fine-tuning the dating of the Frazer YDNA BigY Tree based on what we know about our Frazer genealogy.
  • Next on the horizon is the Frazier/Frasher test we are waiting for and Rick’s FTDNA manual review.

Addendum on 16784516 and New Information from David Vance

This is the extra SNP that I missed. Here it is at YBrowse:

This would have been discovered at the time of my cousin Paul’s initial BigY test. David Vance recently posted a chart with the regions of the Y Chromosome:

DaveidVance has this as a good region even though it shows in a darker region on the YBrowse browser.

So SNP Y102972 is a SNP that Rick and Paul share. We’ll have to wait and see which SNP FTDNA calls this portion of the Archibald Frazer Branch.

8162400

David Vance lists this in not the best region:

Here is more from David:

21457649

David doesn’t list this as the greatest either. Based on David’s chart Y102972 would be the best SNP name for this section of the Archibald Frazer Line. Whatever the name, I think that it is interesting that the BigY test has defined a specific area of the Archibald Frazer Branch of the Frazers from Roscommon, Ireland.

 

A New BigY Test for the Archibald Frazer Line

Back in August of 2020 a BigY test was ordered for Rick. I was just notified that his results have started to come in. Rick’s STR results came in last August and I wrote about them here. However, now we have the more important SNP results. SNPs are the part of a man’s YDNA that mutate in a way that give a precise indication of his line back to the earliest men on the planet.

Frazer YDNA

This is the YDNA tree for the Frazers who were from Roscommon, Ireland. They have lived there since the early 1700’s. It is believed that there were two brothers at that time: Archibald and James:

The older brother was Archibald. I am not a Frazer by YDNA as my grandmother was a Frazer, but I had my second cousin once removed Paul take a test. Paul, Rick and I and many others are on the Archibald Line. Rodney and Jonathan and many others are on the James Line. Paul, Rodney and Jonathan already have BigY tests, but they are the older BigY 500 tests. Rick has the newer more accurate and thorough BigY 700 test. Rick was needed to better define the Archibald Line specifically.

Rick’s New Results

Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) will likely perform a manual analysis of Rick’s results which will result in a further wait, but I’ll look at what the results show so far. Based on the tree above, Rick and Paul’s matching SNPs should show what SNPs their common ancestor James Frazer (born about 1804) had.

Rick’s Block Tree

Here is Rick’s Block Tree:

 

Right now, Rick is shown with Frazers from the Archibald Line and James Line. They share the SNP name of R-YP6849. I am hoping that, after FTDNA’s manual review, that Paul and Rick will form a new YDNA line with a new SNP name.

Rick’s BigY Matches

The next step is to look at Rick’s matches. He shows matches to Rodney, Jonathan, Paul and the Grant above. These results can be misleading due to the criteria that FTDNA uses for matching. For example, the Frazers, Stuarts, and Grant testers all share the common SNP of R-YP6488. Rick also matches Hayes with whom he shares the even older SNP of R-YP6480. However, Rick shows as a match to Grant and Hayes, but not to the two Stuart testers. This may be because the Stuarts also took the more expansive BigY 700 and thus have more Variants that don’t match.

Here are some more BigY match details:

 

FTDNA lists non-matching variants between Rick, Rodney and Jonathan. That may seem confusing but it is easier than listing the 600,000 plus matching Variants that go back to genetic Adam. A non-matching variant may be several things which is also confusing. It may be a variant that Rodney has and Rick doesn’t have. It may be a variant that Rick has and Rodney doesn’t have. It may be a variant that Rick’s newer test covered and Rodney’s didn’t. Then there are test results which may be inconclusive that complicate things.

What I should be looking for is a SNP (or Variant) that Rick and Paul share and that Rodney and Jonathan don’t have. That would create the new Archibald Frazer Line that I am looking for. The goal is to get the newest or most recent SNP possible for the Frazer family.

Variant by Variant Analysis

Here are Rick’s non-matches to Rodney, Jonathan and Paul by Variant in a spreadsheet:

This shows why Paul shows as a match that is further away to Rick than he really is. Paul and Rick have the most non-matching Variants. Another point to the exercise, is that Rick will have have Variants that he validly does not share with Rodney, Jonathan and Paul. Those will be the Variants that Rick has that define his own line since James Frazer born about 1804.

Next, I separate out the Variants and compare them.

 

Candidates for a New Archibald Frazer Line

I would like to look at the two variants I have highlighted below:

It stands to reason that for a new branch to formm Rick should have non-matching variants with Rodney and Jonathan but not with Paul. The two highlighted Variants could meet that criteria. In order for these two or one of the two to meet that criteria, Rick and Paul would both have to have tested positive for these Variants and Rodney and Jonathan would have had to be tested negative for thes Variants.

Variants 8162400 and 21457649

Rick currently has 13 Private Variants. I think that these should change after FTDNA’s manual review. I’ll show what they look like now:

On Rick’s second page I see 8162400, so that is a start. 21457649 is on Rick’s first page of Private Variants.

Next, I have to log into Paul’s results:

Paul has 8162400 and 21457649 which mean that they are not really Private Variants after all. Or, they will no longer be Private Variants now that Rick’s results are in. That is because we are looking at preliminary results that will change.

To be really sure, I need to show that Rodney and Jonathan both tested for these two variants and the results showed that they did not have them. However, that is a little difficult. It involves looking at all their results. I know I have access to Jonathan’s results, so I’ll give that a shot. I think that I need to download Jonathan’s results as a csv file. That is a very large file.

Here is 8162400. The reference and Genotype are the same, so I think that means that Jonathan is not positive for mutated DNA at that position. Or in FTDNA terminology it is not derived. I assume that the fact that this Novel Variant is on Jonathan’s list means he was tested for this Variant. That means that 8162400 should form a new branch for the Archibald Frazers.

The same is true for 21457649 on Jonathan’s test list:

This makes sense because if Paul had these two Variants on his Private Variant list, it likely meant that Jonathan and Rodney did not test positive for derived Variants at these two positions. I included a known SNP above in Jonathan’s list to show that FTDNA only shows the derived information for those known SNPs. Both of these Variants show beyond line 600,000 on the spreadsheet for Jonathan’s BigY results.

Here is what my cousin Paul’s results look like for the same Novel Variant:

The reference T has changed to C. That is what should define the new Archibald Frazer Branch.

What Will Be the Name of the New Archibald Frazer Line?

Assuming my analysis is right, we can go to YBrowse to find the names for these two positions that Paul and Rick share. YBrowse is a YDNA Chromosome Browser.

This shows the Y Chromosome with over 50 million positions. The lighter regions are the ones best used for genetic genealogy. I put in the Variant that Rick and Paul share that is around 8,000,000 – where the red vertical line is on the depiction of the Y Chromosome. It turns out that 8162400 has two names:

I”m guessing that this name came out when I first did the BigY 500 for Paul in 2017. Note the derived is from T to C. That is what Paul had at this position:

This is also within the R1a Haplogroup which is where the Frazers are.

Here is the other SNP:

This is BY155971. Here the reference T has changed to G. Aslo the haplogroup is unknown. I would rule out this Haplogroup for the Archibald Frazer Line.

I’ll try the other position:

This only has one SNP associated with it but it is in a dark region. I thought that was not as reliable.

That means that the new branch for the Archibald Frazers (or even more specifically the James Frazer Line of 1804) will be Y85652 and Y112046. One of the two will have to be chosen to be representative of the line.

Anything Else?

Rick also has a bunch of Variants that don’t match with Rodney, Jonathan or Paul:

My guess is that these Variants are mostly due to Rick taking the BigY 700 test and testing regions that were not tested. These Variants may come into play when the results of the other Frazier test come in. Those results should be due any day now.

Rick Solves a Problem

The problem is with the existing R-YP6489. Here is what SNP Tracker shows:

This has R-YP6489 forming in the Middle Ages. That is because there are other SNPs within the group of R-YP6489:

Each one of the SNPs takes time to form. Up to 144 years based on the older BigY 500. Somewhat less with the newer BigY 700. Say it took about 100 years for each SNP in the top block to form. That would be 500 years. Then that is to the common ancestor who may have been born around 1690. That seems to compare well with what the SNP Tracker has:

That brings us to about the year 1200. According to thefraser.com:

The earliest Fraser found on record was Gilbert de Fraser, who, in 1109, witnessed a charter to the monastery at Coldstream, along the southern border. In 1160, Sir Simon Fraser, who possessed half of the territory of Keith in East Lothian, made a gift of the church to the monks of Kelso Abbey. Through marriage the Frasers acquired Castle Oliver on the Tweed and became the Sheriffs of Peebles.

That means that there were Frasers around before the year 1200. The question is, were they our Frasers and were our ancestors Frasers at that time? Some of the early Southern Frasers were interesting as I had thought that the earliest Frasers were from around Inverness. At any rate, the point is that even though our Frazer testers’ common ancestor was from around 1690, the origin of R-YP6489 is around the year 1200. If Rick creates a new Archibald Frazer branch, that should bring the Frazer YDNA ahead about 600 years to 1800.

Having said that, SNP Tracker has a new feature for the ‘British Isle’:

This seems to contradict the previous SNP Tracker Map. However, the legend at the top says ‘SNP Formation Eroas for Descendants of YP6489’. So this SNP Tracker feature has a bit of prediction to it. I can’t say I get how this works but it is interesting.

The problem that Rick solves is that his test should form a Haplogroup for the Frazers that is undoubtably Frazer and even specific to the Archibald Branch and James Frazer Line of 1804.

Paul’s Private Variants

Right now Paul has 4 private variants which is a lot considering the time between his birth and 1690 is about 260 years. It would have been more likely that two SNPs would have formed in that time.

Here are Paul’s current Private SNPs:

As mentioned above, Paul’s private Variants should go down to two. That means that in 140 years, Paul’s line had two SNPs which seems a little more reasonable. On the other hand, the James Frazer Line seems to have had fewer SNPs or Variants, so perhaps it all averages out.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Currently the YDNA defining SNP for Roscommon Ireland Frazers is R-YP6489. This haplogroup is assumed to be unique for these Frazers but that is not known for sure due to the age of its formation.
  • Now that Rick has tested, it appears that there will be two new defining SNPs for the Archibald Frazer line and even more specifically the James Frazer Line of 1804. This gives a concrete date that will define these two SNPs.
  • I think that the FTDNA manual review will confirm my findings.
  • The next BigY 700 test for Frazier that is coming in should further define early Frazer genealogy and history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A New Frazer STR Tree with Associated Families

First, I don’t like to make STR trees. They take a while to build and then when the SNP results come out, I can be proven wrong with my previous STR trees. Nonetheless, I’ll forge ahead based on the new 111 STR results from a Frazier relative.

First, Who Are the Associated Families

My understanding is that our Frazer ancestors came to Scotland at some time around the time of Christ. They probably formed a small group of people around the Inverness area. At the time when people were taking on surnames, they probably took on the surnames of the people who were surrounding them at the time. This would likely account for the names of Riley, Hayes, Stuart, Grant and Frazer/Frazier below. There were likely other names adopted. The name of Chisolm comes to mind and perhaps other names that haven’t had YDNA tests.

Building a STR Tree

First I extracted STR results from Frazers and other more distantly related families:

These are 25 STR results for Riley, Hayes, Stuart, Grant and Frazer/Frazier. From this, it appears clearly that a DYS447 of 24 defines Frazer/Frazier and a DYS447 of 25 defines the families above. It appears that the value of 25 is older as there are more of that number and it is applied to three different families.

Without getting into the details, here is a simple tree:

The important thing here is that our most recent Frazier tester falls solidly in with our North Roscommon Frazers.

Further, there is a clear break between Riley and Hayes/Stuart/Grant:

This is just with 25 STR testing.

Frazer and Related Families at 37 STRs

Here is the testing up to 37 STRs:

I took out the markers that were all the same. There was a further distinction I didn’t note above in the first 25 markers that identifies the Archibald line of the North Roscommon Frazers. That is a DYS391 of 11. This is where I was before Richard’s 111 STR results came in. It looked like he was fairly closely related to the Roscommon Ireland Frazers. At the 37 STR level, one of the Stuarts drops out as he only tested to 25 STRs.

111 STRs

At this level, some more families drop out:

There is still one Riley and one Stuart left. In the last column, there was a 16, 17 and 15 for results. In that case, I assumed that the 16 was the ancestral value and that Riley mutated up and Stuart mutated down. I made a similar assumption in the column that had 12, 13 and 14.

It is in the lighter blue 38-111 STRs that Richard shows some of his differences from the North Roscommon Frazers in DYS710, 717 and 712. These are the three markers that appear to put Richard further back as a match with our Roscommon Frazers before they were in Roscommon. Again, the SNP results should give a better idea if this is indeed the case.

This is my best guess for a STR tree:

The big question is whether Richard is under Archibald Frazer or further back as I have it in the above diagram. The main reason for putting Richard’s common ancestor with Archibald Frazer descendants back before the Irish Frazers is that Jonathan’s matches with other known Irish Frazer descendants appears to be closer than with Richard. Here are Jonathan’s STR matches:

Jonathan matches known North Roscommon Frazer descendants at a GD between 1 and 4. He matches Richard at a GD of 7 which is about the same level at which he matches two Stuart descendants.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I built a Frazer STR tree which tries to take into account other related families of Riley, Hayes, Grant and Stuart.
  • Frazier seems solidly in the Frazer camp based on one of the STR markers
  • However, based on genetic distance, it seems like Richard should have a common ancestor with the North Roscommon Frazers at some point before they moved to Ireland.
  • These findings seem consistent with what I looked at in my previoius Blog on Richard’s 111 STR results
  • My guess is that Richard’s BigY SNP results will confirm what appears to be happening with his less reliable STR results

 

Initial Frazier YDNA Results Show Connection to North Roscommon Frazers May Be Further Back in Time

I mentioned in a previous Blog that a Frazier has recently ordered a BigY 700 test. The first step in this test is going from his previous 37 STRs to 111 STRs. Richard’s BigY test is now at the stage where his 111 STRs have been completed.

Richard and Rick

Rick also ordered a BigY test and I am also awaiting the results of his tests. I was checking out Rick’s test and saw that he also matched Richard:

Rick matches Richard at 111 markers at a Genetic Distance of 8. That is out at the level that Rick matches two people with the Stuart surname. Initially, that seems to suggest that Richard’s match could be more distant to the Frazers of Ireland than originally thought. This has implications on Richard’s genealogy. If he matched Rick more closely, then we would be looking for Richard’s ancestors in Ireland. If they are matched more distantly, which seems to be the case, then it is likely that the common ancestor for Frazer and Frazier is in Scotland prior to the Frazer move to Ireland. At the the 37 STR level, it seemed like Richard would be more closely related to the Frazers. These 111 STRs give a more accurate level of information.

It would make more sense to show the connection from Richard’s perspective:

Richard is a GD of 7 to Jonathan and a GD of 10 to Paul. However, he is also a GD of 9 to a Stuart. What will be more important to know is Richard’s Haplogroup. That will be revealed when the results of his BigY are completed. However, based on this, my guess is that Richard’s connection should be further back than the time that my Frazer ancestors arrived in Ireland.

Here is a chart which I just saw today:

This chart was done for a different project (R-U106), so the numbers may not be the same for our R1a Frazers. However, based on the above, Richard’s most likely match with the Frazer family was a GD of 8. This translates to between 180 and 720 years. The midpoint of this range is 450 years, which is around the time-frame that I am guessing could be right for a common ancestor between Richard and our North Roscommon Frazers.

Here is the view from Jonathan’s results:

Based on my previous analysis, it appears that Jonathan’s YDNA results are more typical of our Irish Frazer ancestor. As such, Jonathan matches Richard between two Stuarts by STRs. However, as I mentioned above, what will be more important is Richard’s Haplogroup. Above, my Irish Frazer relatives are R-YP6489 and the Stuart Haplogroup is R-BY26344. That can be better seen on Jonathan’s Block Tree:

Further out, Jonathan matches a Hayes at R-YP6480. The question is, what will Richard’s Haplogroup be? My guess is that Richard could match Jonathan, Rodney and Paul with a Frazer (or variant spelling) somewhat further back than Jonathan’s, Rodney’s and Paul’s common ancestor who lived in Ireland. Further, Richard may break up the block of SNPs in the white box above starting with R-YP6489.

What Does It Mean to Break a Block?

Here is the block that needs breaking:

My Frazer relatives (Jonathan, Rodney and Paul) have five SNPs defining them all. R-YP6489 was chosen to represent this block of SNPs that defines the North Roscommon Frazers. That means that since before the time when surnames were popular, these SNPs have been collecting every 144 years or so in our North Roscommon Frazer line. We don’t know which SNPs happened first or last. Suppose that when Richard’s BigY results come in he is tested positive for three of the SNPs above, but not the other two. If one of Richard’s positive SNPs turns out to be YP6489, he will be called YP6489 and the other three Frazers will be named for one of the SNPs that Richard did not test positive for. Also, depending on the results, we should be able to figure out around what year our Frazers split off from Richard’s Fraziers/Frashers.

There is also a possiblilty that Richard’s YDNA will be more alignted with Grant and Stuart on the right. They are under BY26344. Right now, I am thinking that this possibility will be less likely.

Dating the Haplogroups from the Block Tree

In the image above, there are an average of two private variants between Jonathan, Paul and Rodney. One way to estimate the date of their common ancesor is to use 144 years per variant. That would put their common ancestor at about 244 years before their birth (say 1950) or about 1706. This is very close to when we believe that their common ancestor was born.

However, between Frazer, Grant and Stuart above, a lot more time has passed. Between YP6488 and our Frazer testers there are 7 SNPs. Between YP6488 and Stuart/Grant, there are 8 SNPs. I’ll average that out at 7.5 SNPs. Multiply that by 144 years and get 1,080 years.  My guess is that Richard’s results will fill in part of the gap between  the 11th century and 1706.

Our Frazers are documented to North Roscommon in the first half of the 1700’s. Clans associated with the Frazers by YDNA bordered each other to the SW of Inverness. By YDNA, the common ancestor of these associated clans could have been living around 1,000 AD. By family tradition, the Frazers were living in Ayrshire prior to their arrival in Ireland. It may be this time period (1600 or so) that Richard could tie into.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Richard’s 111 STR results have come in as the the first part of his BigY 700 test
  • These STR results suggest that he matches our North Roscommon Frazers more distantly than suggested by his 37 STR results
  • My guess is that Richard’s results will fill in the YDNA gap between the Stuart, Grant and others whose common ancestor could go back to about 1,000 AD and the North Roscommon Frazers whose common ancestor lived in the early 1700’s.
  • Frazer/Frazier/Frasher descendants should be expectantly awaiting Richard’s results.
  • In addition to Richard’s results, Frazers are awaiting the new BigY 700 results of Rick. Plus Rodney will be getting an upgrade from BigY 500 to BigY 700. That is a total of three Frazer/Frazier BigY 700 results we are waiting for.

The First BigY 700 Frazer Results Starting to Come In

I wrote about the ordering of Rick’s new BigY 700 test here. This is good news for at least a few reasons. One is that he is on my particular Archibald Branch of the Frazer family. The second is that his is the first BigY 700 test ordered. There have been three other of the older BigY 500 tests that have been taken – two on the James Line and one on the Archibald Line:

Paul on the left is my second cousin once removed. His grandfather Hubert was my great-grandfather James Archibald’s brother.  Rick on the bottom left is the subject of this Blog.

Rick’s YDNA Order History

This shows that Rick’s BigY-700 has been completed. However, that is only part of the story. The only results I can see so far are his 111 STR results. Three years ago Rick’s Y-DNA67 results came in which were for 67 STRs. Now we can see how Rick matches Paul, Rodney and Jonathan at 111 STRs:

Rick’s first match is with my cousin Paul as expected. Second is with Jonathan, and third with Rodney. The last two matches are with Stuart surnames which is interesting. It appears that there is not much difference between Rick’s match with Rodney and the Stuart matches. However, that is where the BigY test comes in. Rick’s next to last match took a BigY test and that Stuart is at BY26344. This Stuart branch is on a parallell branch to the Frazer branch. This is how it appears at YFull:

The common SNP for Frazer and Stuart is YP6488 which was formed 1150 years ago and our common ancestor was 800 years ago, so say 1200 AD. The takeaway is that the BigY test with its SNPs is superior to the STR test.

A 111 STR Frazer Tree

With Rick’s results it will be possible to buiild a 111 STR tree for the four Frazers who have now tested to that level. To do that I first go to the Fraser and Septs YDNA Project Page.

These are the four Frazers who have tested plus one person who fits in with Frasher ancestry. I will just look at the four Frazers. There are 111 STR results but I have not shown that many. Rick is the one who doesn’t show his ancestor. The fourth row down gives the Mode. I will assume that is the oldest value for the STR.

Next, I take the results from the Fraser and Septs Page and put them into an Excel spreadsheet. Then I take out all the results that are the same:

I have Richard in for reference. He tested to the 37 STR level. However, based on that testing, I see how he seems to fit in with the others. When I copied the DYS385 results, Excel interpreted 11-14 and 11-15 as 14 and 15 Nov.

This appears to be the ancestral STR signature for our branch of Frazers:

Archibald Branch STRs

The Archibald Branch which Rick and I are on is defined by these STRs:

Note that the CDY had a double change. The James Line appears to have kept the older STR values.

Further Frazer Branching

Here is the tree I came up with:

I tried to combine the genealogy with the STR values. The Archibald Branch is defined by the three STRs on the left. These mutations ocurred sometime between 1720 and 1804. Rick has DYS444=13. This happened sometime between Richard of 1830 and our current Rick. Paul has DYS575=19 which ocurred sometime between his great-grandfather George and Paul.

For some reason I don’t have a date for William Fitzgerald Scarsfield Frazer. I have that Edward Fitzgerald Frazer was born in 1867. So the William Frazer Line has the DYS552 value of 24 which ocurred sometime between before 1867 and the birth of Rodney.

One interesting thing about Jonathan is that he shows no STR mutation between himself and Archibald Frazer of about 1690. This could be the case due to the randomness of STR mutations or it is possible that there could have been a mutation and a back mutation in his line. If this was true, we wouldn’t know it. Scanning across Jonathan’s line we can see that all his values are the same as the mode for the Frazers which we take to be the ancestral STRs:

This is offset by Rick and Paul who both had changes in four STRs.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Rick’s first change in his BIgY test is that he now has his 111 STR results.
  • These results are consistant with what we have for the Frazer genealogical tree.
  • A was able to build a 111 STR tree as all four Frazer testers have now tested to that level.
  • The STRs are the preview. The most important part of the BigY 700 test with SNP results is still to come.

 

A New Frazier BigY 700 Ordered

Thanks to Joanna, she got Richard and me talking. That lead to a new BigY being ordered. That means that two new Frazer/Frazier BigY 700’s are in the pipeline right now. I wrote about the previous new BigY here. That previous test was for Rick and this one is for Richard.

Richard’s Previous YDNA Testing

Richard has tested test to the 37 STR level and matches my second cousin Paul at that level:

Rick is in the first orange box and Richard in the second orange box. They are both considered to be R-M198 by FTDNA. Rick has tested to 111 STRs. Rick is a fairly close relative to Paul in terms of YDNA. He is a third cousin once removed:

The exciting thing about Richard is that we don’t know how he is related. We are hoping that the BigY 700 will shed some light on that. So far, on the above chart, Paul, Rodney and Jonathan have taken the BigY 500 test. Rick and Richard will be the first to take the BigY 700 test. The good thing about the BigY 700 test is that it is more accurate and tests for more SNPs. SNPs are what we are looking for to define the Frazer lines on the YDNA Tree.

I also wrote a Blog on Richard’s results back in 2018 when he first had his YDNA tested. At that time, I concluded that Frasher and Frizelle were related to the North Roscommon Frazers.

On this chart:

I notice that some are classified as R-M198 and some are R-M512. As far as I can tell, there is no distinction between these two Haplogroups:

My guess is that R-M512 was the older names because those that have that designation tested in 2015. The date for these two haplogroups is about 6,500 B.C. From an older Blog I wrote, our branch of Frazers are on the Germanic side:

However, this is a tree from about 4 years ago. A lot has happened since then. S2880 is the last Haplogroup on our Frazer Line showing on this tree. According to YFull:

S2880 formed about 3700 years ago. That gave our Germanic Frazer ancestors plenty of time to make their way to what is now Scotland. These are the dates that YFull has for our present-day Frazer BigY testers:

Richard in the Fraser and Septs Project

Richard has joined the Fraser and Septs Project. In that Project, the R1a Frasers/Frazers, etc are in the minority. Most Frasers are R1b. That is because our Frazers as being Germanic were relative late comers to Scotland, having arrived perhaps around the time of Christ. Here are the results from that Project:

Here I have only gone to the 37 STR level as that is what Richard tested to. The administrators of Fraser and Septs placed Richard in with our North Roscommon Frazers:

First is Rodney from my tree above, then Jonathan, then Richard, Rick and Paul.

Richard’s Family Tree

I think that I found Richard’s tree:

This tree starts with Richard’s grandfather. I am mostly interested in the Frazier/Frasher line as that is what YDNA looks at. I think that other Frazers that descend from the Frazers of North Roscommon, Ireland may be interested also. At this point, I usually try and do my own tree to see if it comes out the same way. At best, this will be a second opinion. I don’t have the time to go into it in great detail, but may find out if the tree is obvious or if there are problem points.

Richard’s grandfather is found in the 1920 Census:

His father, Frank was the enumerator:

Frank and his father were both born in Tennessee according to the 1920 Census. Here is Dickson to the West of Nashville:

Frank Frazier

I think that this is Frank in the 1900 Census:

Interestingly, this family is listed as Frasher. This is consistent with Frank’s death record which has his mother as Mary Graham born in Pennsylvania:

Interestingly, the marriage record spells the name Frasher also:

Morgan and Anderson Frazier/Frasher

Here is Anderson Frasher with his large family on the farm in Dickson:

Here Morgan is William M. It helps that the family lived in Dickson for so long. here is the family in 1870. Now Anderson just has initials none of which are ‘A’:

Findagrave has Anderson’s name as William Pellen Frasher:

This appears to reconcile the names:

However, the name is Frasher on the stone:

Here is a photo of W.P.A. that I found from an Ancestry Tree:

This was a Southern family and W.P.A. served for the Confederate army during the Civil War as a blacksmith. He was also a prisoner of war.

David Frazier/Frasher (1803-1890)

Here is W.P.A. in 1850:

William A was a farmer in Dickson. His father was a blacksmith:

They were both born in Tennessee. From this point, without a detailed Census before 1850, tracking this family should be more difficult. The 1880 Census gives a hint.

David’s father was born in Virginia and his mother in North Carolina. His wife, Elizabeth’s parents were both born in Georgia.

William Frazier/Frasher

All the Ancestry trees have William as the father of David. When I put in William Frazier as the father of David at Ancestry I get 7 hints Here is one from 1828:

It appears to me that the Frazier/Frasher name was phonetically spelled. Here we have a combination that came out as Frashier. This was in Hickman County. Hickson is quite close to Dickson:

In the record above, George Harvell is listed as an assignee of William Frashier. I am not sure what this meant. It seems like land was granted to William, but he gave it George? This seems to be our William Frasher due to the proximity to Dickson County. Here is the 8th District mentioned in the land record above:

However, there was a William Frasher listed in the 1790 Census for Randolph, North Carolina:

Here is Randolph, NC:

Here is the 1830 Census:

The simple interpretation is that William was between 60 and 69 and that his wife was between 50 and 59. It is likely that he was living with his four sons and one daughter. It appears that his son David was not included here as he is listed elsewhere on the Dickson 1830 Census:

Here is a good land deal in Hickman. One cent per acre for 100 acres:

Here is a portion of some tax records for Hickman:

The left part is cut off, but it looks like there is a David, William and Robert Frasher listed there.  My thinking is that Frasher was a fairly rare name. Meanwhile, in Dickson the tax record has a William Frasher and a David Frazier:

Of course, none of this shows that William was the father of David. I suppose it must be from family tradition.

 

Back in 1827, there was a William Frashier buying land in White County at 12 and a half cents per acre:

White County is to the East of Nashville:

Here is an 1825 tax record for White County:

Perhaps Thomas, William, Alexander Senior and Junior and Munford were related.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Richard has ordered a new BigY 700 test. These results will first show his 111 STRs, then extended STRs, then the SNPs which give the most accurate reading of his male line.
  • Richard’s past testing of 37 STRs has put him in a grouping with my Frazer family with roots in North Roscommon, Ireland. That means that it is possible that Richard’s ancestors came from that same place.
  • Richard’s ancestors had the last name of Frazier, Frasher or Frashier, but I haven’t seen their name spelled Frazer.
  • I took a look at Richard’s genealogy. His ancestors lived for quite some time in Tennessee. Before that they were proably in North Carolina and possibly Virginia. There is a lot of speculation on where William Frasher was born including one document claiming he could have been a German mercenary during the Revolutionary War. As it is claimed that William was born in 1765, that would have made him a very young mercenary during that War.
  • Next, I will review Richard’s 111 STR results when they come in.

 

 

A New Frazer BigY Test Ordered

A new BigY 700 YDNA Test has been ordered for Rick. This is big news for my Irish branch of the Frazer family. This branch can be traced to the Northern part of County Roscommon in the early 1700’s. Rick had taken the 67 STR test previously, but not the BigY test until now.

The Two Roscommon Frazer Branches

The two Frazer branches are divided into the Archibald branch and the James Branch. These two were likely brothers living near the Northern border of County Roscommon in the early 1700’s. Here are the four Frazer YDNA testers:

Rick is on the lower left. His second great-grandfather Richard Patterson or Paterson Frazer left Ireland for upstate New York. From there the family moved to Canada where many of his Frazer descendants live today. Paul is my second cousin once removed. That means that Paul’s great grandfather George Frazer was my 2nd great-grandfather. Paul’s grandfather Hubert moved from Ireland to the Boston area after my his brother, my great-grandfather moved to Boston. This branch moved to America a generation after the Richard Patterson Frazer family.

History of Frazer YDNA Testing Back to 2015

YDNA testing for our branch of Frazers began in 2015. At that time, STRs were tested. A STR is a Short Tandem Repeat. These repeating markers have values that may go up or down. The combination of differences of these STRs can define a group of people. However, the STRs are not a accurate or precise as a SNP. A SNP only mutates once. The STRs were used to predict SNPs. I believe that Joanna’s brother Jonathan was the first of our Frazer group to test for 37 STRs. This put him into the very general R1a SNP group.

The R1a group is a bit of an oddball SNP for Frasers or Frazers. Most Frasers going back to Scotland are in general R1b. That means that before there was a Frazer surname our Frazer ancestors arrived from Scandinavia to the Inverness area to join a group of people that were to become Frasers/Frazers. This probably happened about 2,000 years ago. So there are the old Scot Frazers who were already in present day Scotland before 2,000 years ago. These would be the R1b Frazers/Frasers. Our ‘newcomer’ branch is R1a.

Here is my wild guess on the movements of our branch of Frazers:

Because YDNA reaches so far back, it is possible to know the general areas that Frazer ancestors lived thousands of years ago. Based on YDNA matches with other clans, it appears that the Frazers lived in the Inverness area since before the time that surnames were adopted. After that, family tradition says that our Frazers probably lived in Southwest Scotland before moving to Ireland.

I had my 2nd cousin Paul tested and he was a match with Jonathan. This showed that we were on the right track and that the Archibald and James Lines were connected. Paul’s testing seemed to indicate that his YDNA had changed more than Jonathan’s over the past 300 years or so. That means that Jonathan’s YDNA should be more representative of their common ancestor who was Archibald Frazer born perhaps in 1690.

Frazer YDNA 2017

In May 2017 Paul’s BigY results came in. This moved his Haplogroup down the R1a Tree to R-YP432. This SNP was still very old. The common ancestor for this SNP was 2800 years old, but this was an improvement on Paul’s previous STR testing. Based on that testing his common ancestor was over 14,000 years old!

In June 2017, Jonathan’s BigY results came in. These seemed to indicate that Paul and Jonathan should move down at least one step to R-YP5515. However, the company YFull was ahead of FTDNA in that analysis. Around July 2017, The R1a Administrator for FTDNA with expertise in the Frazer area of R1a came up with this tree in 2017:

This put the Frazers down the tree three levels below R-YP5515 and gave a common ancestor date for the two Frazer lines of about 1600 AD. This is certainly in the area of when we think Archibald, the father of the Archibald and James Lines was born (around 1690).

Rick tested for 67 STRs and his results came in also in July 2017. Rick’s closest match was with Paul. This makes sense as both Paul and Rick are on the Archibald Line and both descend from James Frazer born about 1804.

Here is a possible tree I made based on the STR testing:

The State of Roscommon Frazer YDNA to This Point

Basically, we have four YDNA testers. Three of these testers have taken the BigY test and one, Rick is in the process of having his BigY taken. When Rodney and Jonathan had their BigY, I was hoping that they would have a matching SNP that Paul did not have that would define the James Branch of the Roscommon Frazers. However, that did not happen. There could be a few reasons for this. The most likely reason is that no new SNPs formed between about 1690 when we think Archibald Frazer was born and Jonathan and Rodney’s common ancestor who was Thomas Henry Frazer born 1836:

That means that between Paul and Rick, I will be hoping to catch a new SNP between Archibald Frazer born about 1720 and James Frazer born about 1804.

Paul’s Private Variants

One of the reasons that I think that there may be a new SNP on the Archibald Branch is that Paul has four Private Variants:

FTDNA lists the private variants as position location numbers until they get a match.  So far, Paul’s Private Variants do not match any that Rodney or Jonathan have on the James Line of Frazers. That means that Rick, if he has any of these Private Variants, will match with Paul. Then that matching variant will be named and will be the new name for the Archibald Branch of the Frazers of Roscommon. So getting one more SNP will put a cap on the process. The BigY describes a person’s SNPs from genetic Adam up to present day. This last SNP will be the closest to present day for the Frazer Line. Also Rick will be the first Frazer to take the newer BigY 700 test which is more accurate and complete. The previous three testers took the BigY 500 test. I don’t feel any need to upgrade Paul at this point as he already has four private or unknown variants.

If Paul and Rick match on one of their Private Variants, that will be good news for those on the Archibald Line of Frazers. That will mean that, assuming we got the genealogy right, the new SNP will be from either Archibald Frazer born about 1720, Philip Frazer, or James Frazer born 1804.

Next Step: Waiting

Next up is waiting for Rick’s BigY 700 results to come in. Once they are in, we need to wait again for FTDNA to do a manual review on Rick’s results. There is also a chance that someone else will decide to have the BigY test done.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The history of YDNA testing for our branch of Frazers is about 5 years.
  • This 5 years of testing has resulted in several thousands of years of Frazer history going back way before surnames were being used. Tracing those results show where Frazer ancestors likely lived in pre-historic times.
  • Additional testing is needed to bring the Frazers into more modern times. It appears that we have a SNP that is so far, at least specific to the Frazer or North Roscommon surname. That SNP is R-YP6489.
  • It is hoped that Rick’s BigY 700 test, in conjunction with Paul’s BigY results, will give a name to the Archibald Line of Frazers. This is one of the main Frazer Branches that formed in the early 1700’s. The other is the James Line.