Taking a Different View of My Hartley Haplogroups: FTDNA’s Colored Dots

FTDNA has two major ways to view your Haplogroup. The most common is the Block Tree. The other is through one’s badge. Here is the Hartley badge:

This Haplogroup of R-FT225247 was obtained when I tested my brother’s YDNA using the BigY 700 test. This distinguished our branch from other Hartleys who were A11132. Here is the Block tree from the viewpoint of my test:

By getting my brother tested, that gave me someone closely related to match my Private Variants. Once they are matched, those Private Variants went up on the tree into our old branch. The other Hartleys are to the right of our Branch in A11132 where I previously was. The problem is that FT225247 is still an old Haplogroup. I’m guessing that it could go back about 450 years to 1570.

FTDNA’s Y-DNA-Haplotree

When I click on the badge above, I get this:

Actually, I get more, but this is enough.  Under R-FT225247, it shows the other SNPs that make up the group.  There are a total of 7. To the left of each SNP is a dot. Here is the key:

I don’t find the yellow dot accurate. It is only used when that is the SNP used for the tree. Actually, for every SNP on my tree, I should not have a grey dot. For example, I am part of A11132. BY16417 is part of that group. I should be presumed positive for that SNP, not presumed negative. The same should be true for BY4026 and BY4028 which make up Z16357.

For the SNP below me, I should have Tested Negative for those, but as the results must not have been clear, I was Presumed Positive. The advantage of the Y-DNA Haplotree is that it gives more information on the quality of the SNPs tested.

Looking At My Brother’s Y-DNA Haplotree

Here my brother had better results than me at Z16357. He at least test positive for that SNP.

SNP Testing Quality

Above, I was presumed positive for Z16357. This is how the test results for that SNP show up for me:

The results look good to me. There are twelve good reads of a mutation and one good read that shows no mutation.

Next, I’ll see my brother’s test:

My brother had 12 good reads, but no read showing no mutation, so FTDNA must have a formula that deals with that.


My brother’s Haplotree appears to say that his A11130 test was presumed negative. However, the actual test, shows that he is definitely tested positive:

That makes me wonder about my test results:

My results are even better. The lesson is: don’t trust the little dots by your SNPs. Better to check the test results.

Negative Results

The negative results are important as are the positive ones. Here is my Haplotree:

The places where I have arrows are the gray SNP boxes which I should be negative for. I should have red dots for these SNPs and their equivalents. Here is the key again:

I don’t have any red dots which is suspicioius. I’ll check my A7 which is a higher level SNP. The 232 next to it must mean that there are 232 testers in that Haplogroup. Clearly I have tested negative for A7:

Clearly I am negative for A7. Perhaps FTDNA only shows negative if I take the single SNP test?

Summary and Conclusions

  • I looked at the Haplotree view for my BigY test and my brother’s BigY test
  • The Tested Positive green dots seem accurate.
  • The Presumed Positive is accurate but on in the case where that SNP is the defining SNP for the Block of SNPs. In my case, that was for SNP Z16357
  • The Presumed Negative is also inaccurate. The actual test results need to be checked. If you are positive for a block of SNPs, then you should be positive or Presumed Positive for all the SNPs in that Block.
  • The blue dot would be helpful in showing downstream SNPs. However, as I had my brother and myself tested, there are no downstream SNPs.
  • It seems like the red dot for Tested Negative should appear much more often unless it is reserved for the Single SNP test at FTDNA.
  • My conclusion is that the color coded dots for the SNPs do not work well

A 23andMe DNA Match with My Daughter’s Namesake

I recently was contacted by a DNA match at 23andMe and she had the same name as my daughter. As 23andMe gives birth dates, I knew it was not my daughter but a second cousin of mine who was born before my daughter. As my great grandparents had 13 surviving children, I have a lot of 2nd cousins.

Heather’s DNA Match

Heather and I have a large DNA match. Heather shot to the top of my 23andMe match list:

Heather shares more than twice the amount of DNA with me compared to my other 2nd cousins at 23andMe. This had me concerned at first as I originally thought that Heather was a 2nd cousin once removed. At that level, her DNA match with me would have been off the scale. This had me going back to my online genealogy to check where Heather was on the family tree:

This tree shows my Hartley second cousins who have tested for DNA at different companies. I am missing some testers. I know there are more under Grace Hartley and I didn’t include my children or nieces and nephews. There are also other lines I have missed, so I should update this tree.

Heather is on the Greenwood line:

That brings me to a match with Heather who is two generations closer to Greenwood Hartley compared to Charles.

Heather Shares About as Much as DNA with Me as Possible:

The 7.84% DNA that we share is 584 cM. Blaine Bettinger has a shared DNA project. He gets people to tell him how much DNA they share with each relationship and he puts that in a chart:

When I thought that Heather was my 2nd cousin, once removed, I thought that something was wrong as our match would be off that chart. As it is, our match of 584 cM is very near the top reported 2nd cousin match.

23andMe Thought That Heather and I Were 1st Cousins

That was a bit of surprise. I suppose that was based on average shared DNA. But your mileage may vary as the saying goes. Here are some more numbers from the Shared cM Project:

Based on that study, our DNA match would indicate that we would be closer to 1st cousins once removed. Here are my two first cousins and three first cousins once removed at Gedmatch.com:

The first two in the orange box are 1st cousins on my mother’s side. The second three are 1st cousins once removed on my father’s (Hartley) side. The last is the highest 2nd cousin match at Gedmatch. That means that Heather at 584 cM has a higher match than my three 1st Hartley cousins once removed. These are my father’s cousins. I find that interesting.

The DNA that Heather and I share is from our two great grandparents. They are James Hartley and Annie Snell. Here they are with some of their children:

In fact, roughly half  of Heather and my shared DNA is from James Hartley and half is from Annie Snell. It is possible to figure out exactly which is which, but it takes matches with descendants of older common ancestors to figure that out. I’ll give a few examples later in the Blog.

23andMe Family Tree

23andMe has a Family Tree. They try to figure out your tree by the DNA, but that isn’t always precise. So they want you to add known relatives to that tree. Here is my tree:

Normally a family tree would have the paternal ancestors on the left, but this one does not. My Hartley ancestors are in blue on the right. Here is more of a close-up of the Hartley side:

One, person, DL, I don’t have matched up to a named line. Heather is on the Greenwood line and her father is Sonny’s brother. You don’t know the players without a program. My line goes off to the left where it matches up with my mother’s ancestors. It took a bit of trial and error to get Heather into the tree correctly at 23andMe, but I have her now:

This shows that Heather is 1st cousin to my 2nd cousin Woody.

DNA Painter

I have my Chromosomes painted or mapped by my various matches. I’d like to see if Heather adds any new information to that map. I already have a lot of Hartley 2nd cousins mapped. Here is what I have mapped so far:

My paternal DNA is on the top row of every chromosome and my maternal DNA is on the bottom row of each chromosome. The predominant green is where I would match Heather as that color represents James Hartley and Annie Snell our common 2nd great grandparents.

This shows up better when I choose my paternal-only side on the Painter:

It would be easier to say which chromosomes that Heather and I share no Hartley matches on. Those are Chromosomes:

  • 6
  • 17
  • 18
  • 19
  • 21
  • 22
  • X

Part of the reason that I may not have Hartley on a chromosome is that my chromosomes may have recombined or not recombined more likely to exclude Hartley on a certain Chromosome. The only two choices on my paternal side are Hartley or my father’s mother who was a Frazer. So if I got all Frazer DNA on a particular Chromosome, I will not have any Hartley matches on that Chromosome. I would not match Heather on the X Chromosome because men only recieve one copy of that Chromosome from their mother. That means I have no Hartley X Chromosome DNA. Heather doesn’t really have any Hartley X Chromosome DNA either. She did get an X Chromosome from her father, but that X Chromosome was the same that he got from his Gifford mother. So she got Gifford DNA from her father on the X Chromosome, not Hartley.

Right now I am 45% painted overall and 53% painted on my paternal side. I’ll see if Heather adds anything or if I am already maxed out. Here is the data I need for DNA Painter:

One interesting thing I see already is that my match with Heather starts at position 1 for Chromosomes 2, 4, 13 and 15. That would be right at the start of these chromosomes. I already have a match painted at or close to the beginning of Chromosome 2, but not at the beginnings of Chromosome 4, 13, and 15. That is encouraging.

I choose, “Paint a New Match”.

I refreshed my percent painted:

This shows that I am up to 47% painted now overall or an increase of 2%. I also added 17 segments from my match with Heather. However, I’m sure a lot of those segements are overlapping other Hartley/Snell matches.

On my paternal side I am now at 56%. That is a increase of 3 percentage points or quite a bit at this point in my mapping.

Here is my new green Hartley/Snell mapped DNA:

One interesting thing is that the Hartley side is filled up now on Chromosome 13. Here are my second cousin matches on Chromosome 13:

I kept the names out for privacy, but Heather is the match at the top. I have also mapped my DNA to my 4 grandparents. My guess is that my Chromosome 13 is all Hartley. I need to find my Blog on Chromosome 13. Back in November 2018, I mapped out my Chromosome 13 and that of my 5 siblings:

This was one of the easiest chromosomes to map because there were not many crossovers. The crossovers are when you change in your chromosome from the DNA you got from one grandparent to the spouse of that grandparent. I am in the third row above and I have all the same paternal grandparent (Hartley) and the same maternal grandparent (Rathfelder). That means that it was not unexpected to have my Chromosome filled in with green Hartley DNA on the DNA Painter that I mentioned earllier.

So in the example above, if Heather uploaded her DNA to gedmatch where I have my siblings’ DNA, she would not match my brother Jim on Chromosome 13. That is because Jim got Frazer DNA in the first part of his Chromosome 13 where Heather matched me. Heather would match Jon and Heidi as much as she matches me. For Lori and Sharon, Heather would match on Chromosome 13, but not as much as she matches me as she would be matching in different/fewer regions.

Heather’s Older DNA

The DNA that Heather and I share came down from James Hartley born in 1862 and Annie Snell born in 1866. I mentioned earlier in the Blog that it should be possible to identify some older DNA. That can be seen at DNA Painter. The first example I see of this is in Chromosome 4:

On this Chromosome, Heather matches me at the beginning and end of the Chromosome. In the middle, I have some matches from my Frazer side. In yellow, I have a match with Anne whose ancestry goes all the way back to Abraham Howorth (or so we believe). This DNA goes all the way back to 1768. The Howorth family lived in Bacup, Lancahsire, England:


Beth, Jim and Joyce didn’t match Ann on Chromosome 4, but they did on Chromosome 8. When that happens, we call that triangulation which is a sort of check that the DNA really did come from where we think it did. In this case, Heather would extend that triangulation to Chromosome 4. If Heather  uploads her DNA to Gedmatch, she would likely match Ann through their common 4th great-grandparents.

Chromosome 9

An example of identified Snell DNA is on Chromosome 9:

I left out the names, but my match in blue is Celeste. Her ancestors were Otis Snell and Mary Parker. My match with Heather is right above the blue match. That means that Heather likely matches Celelste also.

Here are Mary and Otis:

Those are the only two examples I have right now of older DNA. I would like to find more examples. This would require getting some of my AncestryDNA matches to upload to Gedmatch. AncestryDNA has a lot of matches but they do not use a Chromosome Browser. That means I can tell how much DNA I share with a match there, but I cannot tell on what chromosomes I match them nor can I tell on what portion of the chromosome I match them.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was glad to hear from Heather
  • I was surprised at how much DNA we shared with each other. The amount is right near the top of the scale of likely DNA matching
  • Because Heather and I share so much common DNA that came down from James Hartley and Annie Snell born in the 1860’s, I was able to add a lot of DNA to my DNA Map using DNA Painter.
  • I showed a few cases where I could identify older DNA matches that Heather and I shared going back to Howorth, Snell and Parker.

Mary Ann Hartley Burrows in Fall River Newspapers After 1903

In my previous Blog, I looked at Abel Burrows, the husband of Mary Ann Hartley. He died in 1903, so that was a natural ending for that Blog. I’ll look to see what else the Fall River newspapers have to say about my relatives after 1903 in this Blog. In my previous Blog, by looking at Abel, I found out some more about other relatives, such as the Hartley family who visited him and he visited in Rochester. Also, of course, I learned about his wife, Mary Ann. I’ll look some more at Mary Ann in this Blog.

6 Jun 1904

This article raises some questions. What relatives did she visit? I assume that they were Bacup relatives on the Emmet side.  Mary Ann Hartley was born in Bacup where her mother Ann Emmet was from. She could have also visited Abel Burrows’ relatives. Mary Ann returned on the SS Saxonia on September 8. This was the same ship that Abe Pilling and his family took to England a few years previous. Here the ship is called the RMS Saxonia:

12 Sep 1904

I wonder if Bank St is a typo. I have her at Oak Street in the 1906 Fall River Directory:

22 September 1905

Listed under real estate transactions:

See below for more information. Stetson St goes by the Western side of Oak Grove Cemetery:

3 Apr 1906

This was some kind of infection.

4 August 1909

There is an Island Park Beach and Island Park Cove in Portsmouth, RI not too far from Fall River.

4 July 1912

According to the 1900 Census, Mary Cowgill was a widow living with her son William Marshall at 210 Franklin Street, Fall River.

7 August 1912

From the Fall River Globe under the heading of Tiverton:

There is a Riverside Drive on the current Google Map of Tiverton:

Annie Hartley was born November 1902, so she would be 9. Margaret was born May 1906, so she would be just 6 years old. Florence and Mildred were Mary Ann’s granddaughters. Florence was 12 and 8. That leaves Sadie Edmundson of Providence. Who is she?

Here she is in 1910:

Sarah or Sadie was born in Massachusetts which makes sense. Sadie was actually born in 1897 in Fall River. Her father was a barber. The mother was Elizabeth Barlow. I think that William was from Blackburn, Lancashire so perhaps a friend of the Burrows family?

Actually, this newpaper article from the Fall River Evening News from 8 September 1905 sheds some light:

I assume that means that Mary Ann’s relationship was with Elizabeth Barlow who was a Draper before she was an Edmundson. Here is Orange Street:

More on Walter Draper

Although Walter is said to be born in Rhode Island in the Census above, I find a record of his birth in Fall River on June 22, 1885. His father was Oswald, a weaver. As might be expected, Oswald died in 1894. At that time, he was a restaurant keeper. Elizabeth Barlow Draper then married William Edmundson in 1897. It was William’s second marriage also. One question is why was Mary Ann Walter’s guardian if Elizabeth remarried? As may be guessed, Walter Draper poses more questions than answers.

This could be Walter’s grave stone:

This is interesting unless it is coincidental. My third great-grandmother Mary Pilling’s mother was a Shackleton. I take this to be the same Walter:

Here is a photo that gives some dates of these burial mates:

Edmundson can be explained. He was Walter’s step father. Albert Shackleton married Sarah. The Shakleton name looks like a coincidence. These Shackletons were from Yorkshire, so perhaps distantly related to my Lancashire Shackletons. However, none of this suggests why Mary Ann Hartley Burrows would be the guardian of Walter Draper.

3 Sep 1913

Under the heading of Tiverton:

Here is Quaker Ave., Tiverton:

12 November 1913

23 February 1918

16 April 1918

Here is the Fall River Globe version:

World War I ended November 11, 1918.

30 October 1920

2 December 1920

I have that Mary Ann was born 30 April 1855, so she would be 65 in 1920. Findagrave.com has her birth on 1 December 1854, so that makes more sense.

3 March 1921

I like these pleasant little articles:

Again, I think by Marion is actually meant Rochester. Here is a photo with Mary – possibly from that trip:


I believe Mary Ann is to the left of my grandmother. My grandmother is near the middle of the photo and has dark hair and is holding a child – probably my Aunt Sybil. My Aunt Sybil was born 8 September 1920, so the photo may be from 1922. Here is a close-up of Mary Ann:

Eighth Street was not far from Oak Street:

7 July 1921

This was under the heading of Ocean Grove:

15 April 1923

Here is Cherry Street:

That about covers what I could find on Mary Ann Hartley Burrows. Here is her grave stone taken from Ancestry:

I’ll look into the Williams family more in my next Blog.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Between this Blog and the one on Abel Burrows, I have a better picture of who Mary Ann Hartley was and the type of things that she did.
  • At some point, she must have gone from Episcopal to Baptist, perhaps due to Abe?
  • I was disappointed to not find her obituary at newspapers.com. The note said that the obituary had been removed or relocated.
  • The social customs of the day were interesting. Apparently social gatherings were very important and newsworthy
  • Mary Ann had a high regard for her daughter and granddaughter based on parties given for them and the gifts given to them
  • Mary Ann was also brave as she apparently traveled alone to England, Scotland and France.



Another Hartley Relative in Fall River Newspapers: Abel Burrows

In my previous Blog, I wrote about Abe Pilling who was a policeman in Fall River from about 1890 until 1925. I had good luck with finding out a lot about this very public man. Next I thought that I’d check around for other relatives. This Blog will focus in on Abel Burrows who was the husband of Mary Ann Hartley. However, some other Hartley relatives will be mentioned.

1 Nov 1870 – Death of Twelve Year Old Esther Hartley


One of the first entries was a sad one. The Hartley family arrived in the US not much more than a year before this time.

Other Wilkinsons were listed on the previous page. Mary Wilkinson was Greenwood’s mother. The ship arrived in Boston on  25 Ocober 1869. The Hartley family lived in Fall River for only a year or less before moving to New Bedford.

Mary Ann Hartley and Abel Burrows

I had to find this 16 February 1874 article by searching for Burrows. Hartley was hypeneated in the paper. Mary Ann looked to be 18 but is listed as 19 on the State Marriage record. Abel was a weaver at the time. I wonder how the two met as Mary Ann lived in New Bedford and Abel in Fall River.

Mary Ann’s grandmother Mary Pilling Hartley Wilkinson died not too soon after the wedding:

The above is from 25 Mar 1874.

18 May 1878

14 April 1880

7 June 1880

5 August 1880

19 June 1882

21 June 1882

Was Abel a cricket player? Cricket is a very English game, but there were many English in Fall River.

13 Feb 1884

30 April 1884

27 June 1884

Friends of the family?

Here is Linden Street:

6 Sep 1884

Here are Abel’s wife and children:

8 Sep 1884

Now we know Nancy’s nickname.

29 Jana 1885

Here is a map:

There is a balloon located at 47 South Main located at the intersection of at least two streets. I circled where the old business was and Linden Street. I wonder if the family home moved also at this time. If he did move, it was not right away. Here is the 1885 Fall River Directory:

20 Mar 1885

That would explain how Abel came by the jewelry business. Emanuel decided to stay. According to the 1900 census he arrived in the US in 1885 with his wife and daughter.

24 March 1885

24 April 1885

Here was a way to get people to Abel’s store:

25 June 1885

23 Dec 1886


8 Mar 1887

I guess I didn’t expect to find out so much about Abel.

15 July 1887

10 August 1887

This is of interest to me as I grew up in Rochester. Perhaps Mary Ann visited her brother James Hartley while in Rochester. According to the 1885 Fall River Directory, John Slinn was in the insurance business.

It turns out that John Slinn wrote an article of his trip to Rochester in the Fall River Daily Herald published 12 August 1887.

That is quite the fish story and I had to chuckle picturing where most of this took place. My guess is that the fishing took place at Snow’s Pond not too far from the Hartley farm. What the article doesn’t mention is that Annie Hartley was due to give birth to her 2nd child later in September of that year and already had a one year old Daniel Emmet Hartley.

8 Nov 1887

15 Dec 1887

19 June 1888

30 July 1888

24 Sep 1888

1 Jan 1889

Apparently Abel owed some money.

25 Jan 1889

15 Feb 1889

28 Feb 1889

17 Sep 1889

14 May 1891

12 June 1891

20 August 1891

Mrs. David Wilkinson is Marion Ann nee PIllng the sister of Abe Pillng who lived in New Bedford. She was born in 1861. I wonder if the vacation was actually in Rochester at the Hartley farm.

30 Jan 1992

More problems for Abel:

The same day:

15 Feb 1894

15 May 1894

9 Feb 1895

25 Feb 1895

Tessie must have been a nickname for Esther.

13 Jan 1897

I assume that the Burrows attended the Baptist Church.

1 Oct 1897

29 Dec 1897

27 Jan 1899

4 Feb 1899

15 FEb 1899

21 August 1900

Who knew my great-grandfather was in the Fall River Daily Herald or that he had visited Niagara Falls? I can’t tell if James was travellng alone or not.

5 Sep 1900

This is a bit of a mystery as there is no Joseph Hartley. My guess is that this was my 9 year old grandfather James Hartley and his 7 year old sister Nellie. Henry Bradford was born January 1900 and would have been the 7th chlld in the house, so perhaps James’ and Nellie’s trip to Fall River gave their mom a break.

14 Feb 1901

8 Jun 1901

The follow-up article two days later:

My guess was that they went to visit the Hartley family. This is the type of article I was not expecting – a story about Rochester in a Fall River paper.  Mrs. Williams must be Elizabeth Burrows Williams:

The child must be Florence Williams.

6 Sep 1901

16 Jan 1902

5 Mar 1903

So that was the end of Abel. His son-in-law became exectutor and sold off the contents of his jewelry business. I felt I got to know Abel a bit through the eyes of the Fall River newspapers. He was very active in sports and a supporter of cricket, polo and biking. He was in good shape and an avid biker until near his premature death. He had his share of problems with the death of two of his daughters and more than his share of robberies.

Abraham L Pilling of Fall River as Seen in Newspaper Articles.

I have been looking at Newpapers.com lately for articles of genealogical interest. Some people have more written about them in the newspaper than others. Abe Pilling had a lot written about him.


My 3rd great-grandmother was a Pilling. Her son was John Pilling. He had Abraham Pilling who lived in Fall River. Newspapers.com covers Fall River. This article is 02 May 1925 from the Berkshire Eagle:

Those were a lot of vetoes. Abraham had actually died in February 2nd before this veto took place. Here is an article that preceded the above from the Boston Globe on 14 April 1925:

Here is an article from the Fall River Daily Evening News from 6 September 1907:

Here is some basick information on John Pilling and his family:

Abraham was born in 1865 and was the son of John Pilling. Mary Pilling had John before she married Robert Hartley, my ancestor. Abraham was born five days after the Civil War was over.

This is probably an early mention of Abraham in the Fall River Globe on 6 May 1889:

Abraham was apparently on a sports team called the Olympics. Abraham was not afraid to get into a fight.

Here an entry from 19 July 1889:

A day later Pilling was in the paper for a quarter mile race:

More from July 23:

22 Feb 1890

7 April 1890

Sounds like an exciting game.

Now I’m curious about his trip to England as Abe’s father abandoned the family and took off to England in 1877 when Abe was only 12.

Here is one record:

This must be Abe’s return. At this time, he was a weaver:


Here is a later trip:

Here he took his wife and two children:

25 Jul 1890

31 July 1890

A report of the annual Sons of St. George Day at Rocky Point:

11 Nov 1890

James Pilling

26 October 1891

James’ obituary was posted in the Fall River Daily Evening News on 1 April 1919:


In 1891 and 1892 as Abe worked on the police force, he changed from footballer to referee.

25 Nov 1892

16 Oct 1895

The Fall River Daily Herald reported:

5 Mar 1896

15 Aug 1898

28 Jul 1899

31 Jul 1899

Perhaps Abe’s wife needed a break from the police force drama. Marion was Abe’s sister.

14 Sep 1899

Some criticism of Abe on the baseball team:

10 Apr 1900

25 Jul 1901

Abe also played quoits:

Quoits was a type of ring toss game:

15 May 1902

More problems for Abe:


5 Sep 1907

From the Fall River Daily Evening News:

9 Jul 1902

I mentioned this trip the Abe took with his family above. I’m curious as to whom he visited. His father was dead by now. It seems that I recall that my great Aunt Nellie aslo traveled to England at some point.

24 Sep 1902

Here is some more news on Abe’s trip:

The name Thomas Wilkinson is interesting. The article doesn’t mention the purpose of the visit.

21 May 1903

19 Jul 1906

I like how the paper covers the local news:

I still have a few years to go.

26 Jan 1907

15 August 1913

The next day’s paper:

4 Sep 1918

    • My guess is that at least one of Abe’s visits to England was to visit the Halliwell family.

20 Oct 1920

There are many more details. Alice’s brother Everett was an usher.

2 Nov 1920

After this time, there are few significant newspaper articles about Abe.

Here is Abe with my Hartley relatives around 1921 or 1922:

Abe is in the back row with white hair, a mustache and bow-tie.

24 June 1922

Actually, there were a few later articles that I mention at the top of this Blog. That article mentioned injuries that Pilling sustained in the line of duty. I wonder if these were part of those injuries.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Abe certainly had a difficult start in life as his father deserted his family when Abe was 12
  • Abe lived a very public life as seen through his appearances in many newspaper articles
  • Abe was apparently a very physical man charged with what today would be called police brutality. He was also fond of playing sports and traveling. Of course these were different times. He also seemed to like to drink and was accused of being intoxicated on the job, but never found guilty of the charges. However, Abe stayed with his family, so in that way was a better man than his father.




My New Hartley YDNA Branch of R-FT225247

It has been a while since my YDNA subclade has changed. I have been A11132 since 2017. My subclade changed recently because I had my brother tested for the BigY 700. Here are the results:

In 2017, I went from A11138 to A11132. Just recently FTDNA has put my brother and me in the same new subclade of R-FT225247. My brother and I have no private variants. That would be the usual case. David Vance, who is a YDNA expert points out the difference between the private variants shared between the A11132 Hartleys and the number of SNPs in my branch. He takes that to mean that my branch mutated much faster. My guess is that it did but that the A11132 testers mutated more slowly than average also. That means that if that these Hartleys had a common ancestor born in 1600, that would be 350 years from 1950 which would be around the time when some of these BigY testers were likely born. That would mean that on my branches the mutation rate was 50 years per SNP and 175 years per SNP on the A11132 branch. As the actual mutation rate as been estimated at between 83 and 144 years, the average between my two estimated Hartley SNP rates is about 113 years. So it all averages out.

This also explains why when the last Hartley tested, no new Hartley branch was formed. We must have all branched off the same Hartley tree around 1600 or so.


FT225237 is the name given to my group but the name is actually representative of 7 SNPs.

My Previous Prediction

In my last Blog on Hartley YDNA, I looked at my private variants and my brother’s private variants. We both had 6 private variants which I thought would make up the new subclade. That means that I was mostly right. These were my private variants previously:

A quick comparison between that and the new FT225237 block shows that I was missing A11130. For some reason, this was not shown as a private variant previously. I guess it should have been a private variant.

A11130 and FGC6800

In my previous Blog, I noted that when I looked at my A11132 matches, there were SNPs in common including A11130 and FGC6800. As can be seen above, A11130 is now incorporated in my FT225237 Block. But what about FGC6800? Here are my brother’s non matching variants with the two A11132 Hartleys:

Notice that FGC6800 appears in both A11132 Hartleys. As both my brother and I have tested for FGC6800, I am not sure why it is not in the FT225237 Block. The answer appears to be here:

According to my brother’s results, FGC6800 is already on the Y Tree. According to YBrowse:

This SNP is part of the I2a-L801 haplogroup. As I am R1b, that explains why this wasn’t added to my results. This appears to be an anomalous SNP.


Next, as I check my brother’s matches, I notice that we have this non-matching variant:

My brother didn’t test positive for this, so that must mean that I have this SNP. Here is what YBrowse shows:

Here are my brother’s results for this SNP:

It looks like the results were inconclusive. There were some poor reads here. Some showed a mutation. The high quality reads showed no mutation. I actually addressed this in my previous Blog and thought that my brother would be considered positive for BY26739. But apparently, that didn’t happen. If Jim really is positive for BY26739, then that SNP should be added to our FT225247 Block.

Next Steps

So far, we know that there are three different Hartley families who have had the BigY test. We all branch out quite early – probably around the year 1600 or before. It wold be nice to find a branch of our Hartleys that was somewhat newer. I have reached out to someone on my 67 STR match to see if he would take the BigY 700 test.

Summary and Conclusions

I was surprised at finding out so soon that I have a new subclade. This is a large old subclade, but thanks to testing with my brother it is now on the books. This goes back to really old Hartleys who were probably born before 1600 so it would be nice to split out the branching to a later date. This would require more Hartley testers.


My Brother Jim’s BigY Results Are Starting to Come In

When I checked on my brother’s BigY results today, I saw this message from Family Tree DNA (FTDNA):

That was good news. I noticed yesterday that the Haplogroup for Jim had changed from a basic haplogroup to a specific Hartley haplogroup. However, I believe that a manual review will put us in an even more specific haplogroup.

Jim’s BigY Matches

Jim matches with me first, then two other Hartleys, then a Smith and a Pillsbury. My guess is that the Hartley matches go back to after the use of surnames and Smith and Pillsbury represent common ancestors who were before the advent of surnames. Here are the Hartley matches:

Jim and Me and BY26739

Theoretically, I would think that Jim and I would have no differences in variants. There is a few reason we would have a non-matching variant. One is that Jim or I formed a new SNP. In that case there would be a new branch of Hartley’s. Another reason may be that one of our tests did not cover that SNP or didn’t test conclusively positive for that SNP.

I’ll check for this SNP at YBrowse:

This SNP appears to be at the right end of the Y Chromosome.

This SNP was named in 2018. Here are Jim’s results:

It looks to me that Jim had six good reads, but that wasn’t enough to make him positive for this SNP. I think that when a manual review is done, that Jim will be positive for this SNP. My guess is that I will have more reads for this SNP than Jim:

Well, it looks like I guessed wrong. Do I get another guess? The genotype is C and the reference is A. I have two good reads of A to C. Then there are a lot of (11) what appear to be low quality reads of A to C. In Jim’s good quality reads, it showed that he had A at that position. However, his 9 low quality reads showed A to C. As  BY26739 is not a non-matching variant with my other BigY matches, I can assume that they also have this SNP. That means that there is no new Hartley YDNA branch between Jim and myself.

STR Differences Between Jim and Me

In my previous Blog on STRs, I discussed a STR difference Jim and I had in the 111 STR test. Now Jim and I have an additional difference. Here is my match with Jim:

This shows that out of 586 STRs Jim and I have a difference of two. From my previous Blog, I found that Jim had a 15 at DYS534 and I have a 16. That means that at this marker I had one additional repeat compared to Jim.


Jim and I have different values for DYS548. In order to find this, downloaded my STRs and Jim’s STRs. I transposed the results in a spreadsheet. Then I subtracted one value from the other. When the value was 1, that meant there was a difference.

Jim and I don’t match on two STRs out of 586, but we were tested for about 830 STRs. In these 15 least STRs, I didn’t have results for two STRs and Jim was missing results for 6 STRs. That means that 7 out of these 15 STRs could not be compared. Also, I do not know whether Jim had the mutation at this location or I did. To figure this out, I would need access the results of at least one of our other close matches. I may ask my other close BigY match at some point for his STR results out of curiosity.

Any Predictions?

I like to make predictions as to what might happen one there is a FTDNA manual review. Here is the situation now:

Under R-A11138 there is one branch. A11132 only has Hartleys. A11138 is quite old. The common ancestor between Hartley and Smith is probably 1,000 years old or more. If Jim and I match on a SNP or SNPs that the other two Hartleys don’t have, we should form a new Hartley Branch.

Here are my matches:

I have already discussed BY26739. I think that will go away. As I compare, my matches I see that match 2 and 3 have some variants in common. They are:

  • FGC6800
  • 11535449
  • 12707325
  • 15438401
  • A11130
  • 7048756

However, the fact that these variants are listed could mean one of two things. It could mean that Steve and Michael have these and Jim and I don’t. Or it could mean that Jim and I have these variants and Steve and Michael don’t. Or, more likely, it could be a combination of the two.  

Based on previous work, I had listed these as my private variants:

Here are the ones that are listed above:

That seems to indicate that Jim and I should have the highlighted variants. But what about the two FT variants? I’ll think about those later. The ones left from my original list are:

  • FGC6800
  • A11130

It appears that these should be the two SNPs that Steve and Michael Share that Jim and I don’t have. That is, unless FTDNA renamed these two SNPs. First, I’ll look at FGC6800. From FTDNA’s Chromosome Browser, it seems like I do have that:

That is at position 9,309,609, so it wasn’t on my previous list. I better check my private variants:

They seem to match what I had. Next I’ll check my brother Jim’s Private Variants:

Well, that’s good. We have the same private variants. It seems like these should make up our new branch.

Next, I wonder about A11130. I am checking JIm’s results:

Jim shows he has this as well. I am sure I do also. As I recall a ways back, it was thought that A11130 would be my Haplogroup until others in my group were found not having it. So the group became named for A11132 instead. I guess here is where I get confused between FTDNA calling some SNPs private variants and some named variants.

I guess Private Variants are what they say they are. They are private for a person until they have a match. In this case my brother and I do match, but we are awaiting a manual review to tell what to do with the private variants.

FT225247 and FT135932

These were my two other private variants that I said I’d get back to. FTDNA would refer to these as their position numbers while they are private, but they all really have names. These were the two variants that did not show up as non-shared variants with my other BigY matches.

Summary and Conclusions

In this Blog, while I was waiting for FTDNA’s results, I made some guesses as how those results might come out. The results appear to out now, so I’ll take a look at those in my next Blog.


Charles: A Hartley Second Cousin at 23andMe

I see that 23andMe shows that I have a DNA match with a second cousin twice removed named Charles. After a little snooping around I think I know who it must be.

Charles’ Genealogy

I keep a DNA/Genealogy tree. These are for people that are related to me and have had their DNA tested. Here is part of the Hartley tree that I have so far:

Jennifer is my second cousin once removed. So Charles will be down an extra layer. James Hartley at the top of the tree had 13 children, so the more descendants I can get the better. I believe that Charles is on the Greenwood Line. Greenwood, also known as Green was born in 1897 in Rochester, MA.

Here is where Charles comes in:

It is good to have DNA from a different line because Greenwood, who was born in 1897, had a different mix of DNA passed down to him from his two parents than any of his other siblings. Chrales represents a fourth generation of DNA testers who have descended from James Hartley and Annie Snell.

My DNA Match with Charles

Here is my matches with Charles at 23andMe:

We match on 5 different chromosomes. I can ‘paint’ that match onto my chromosome map. This is what I have already:

I have a paternal side and maternal side for each of my chromosomes. I match Charles on my paternal Hartley side. Charles will paint in as green as that represents our common ancestors James Hartley and Annie Snell. Right now I am 44% painted overall and 54% painted on my paternal side. I have already painted 13 Hartley/Snell descendants. Let’s see if Charles adds anything unique.

Turns out he doesn’t. And it turns out I had already added his DNA to my chromosome map using DNAPainter which is the program that produces the graphic above. I have already mentioned Charles in a Blog here.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I thought I didn’t know where Charles, my DNA match, fit in, but I had figured  out where Charles fit in before.
  • I now have a note at 23andMe showing where Charles fits in and I have him on my Hartley DNA/genealogy chart.
  • Although Charles could have added new DNA that came down from James Hartley and Annie Snell, he didn’t. That DNA was already covered by twelve other DNA matches who are also descendants of Hartley/Snell.
  • Charles represents a fifth child of Hartley/Snell with DNA matches to me. James Hartley had 13 children. The first child got half of his parents DNA. The second child, combined with the first represented a total of 75% of their parents’ DNA. The third child combined with the first two would have inherited a total of of 87.5% of their parents’ DNA. That means that adding this Greenwood line added a theoretical extra 3% of DNA from James Hartley and Annie Snell.



Waiting for My Brother Jim’s BigY: 111 STRs

I noticed on the BigY Facebook Page that people are starting to get their 111 STR results from the recent round of BigY testing due to this year’s DNA Day sale at FTDNA. I checked my brother Jim’s results and found that he also had his 111 STR results. This is not bad considering the BigY was batched a little over two week ago.

My Brother’s 111 STR Matches

Here are my brother’s matches:

Jim has five 111 STR matches. I am the first match. I am a little surprised that I am a GD of 1 from my brother. I am guessing that I have a STR mutation that Jim doesn’t have.

Here are my matches for comparison:

For some reason I only have three matches. I am one STR further away from matching Steve but one STR closer to matching Ross. Also I don’t match Mervin or Gary, so I must exceed the matching threshold for these two. Jim is at the maximum matching at a GD of 10 at the 111 STR level. That leads me to believe that I have the mutation that Jim doesn’t. Having said that, it doesn’t explain why I am a closer match to Ross.

Comparing My Brother’s 67 STR Matches with Mine

Here are my 67 STR matches:

Here I pick up John, Mervin and Lawrence. I picked up John and Lawrence because they only tested to this level.

Here is what Jim has:

I was expecting that Jim would have more matches than me at this level, but he had fewer. However, he does have one lower GD than me to John, Steve and Mervin. I match Lawrence and Jim doesn’t. This may be an issue of sharing – what settings Jim has and the fact that I haven’t singed him up for any YDNA projects yet. Or, this may be due to the STR difference between my brother and I that I discuss later in the Blog.

Jim and I Have the Same Matches at the 37 STR Level

Here are my results:

I won’t bother posting Jim’s results as they are the same as mine except for the match dates. Notice now that I also have a GD of zero to Jim. That means that the glitch must have occured in between marker 38 and 67.

It’s Not a Glitch; I Do Have a Different STR Than My Brother at DYS534

That was helpful, because I found the different STR:

Jim has a 15 at DYS534 and I have a 16. Each of these STRs have a different mutation rate. There are different studies trying to determine what these mutation rates are. This STR has a chance of mutating in every 5-8 times per 1,000 generations. That is actually one of the faster mutation rates. That means that if a STR was going to mutate, it makes sense that it was this one.

I have done quite a bit of STR analysis in the past, so it is helpful to look back on that.

This shows that of the four Hartleys tested, three had 15 for DYS534 and I had 16. At the time, I assumed that this was the signature of my Trawden, Lancashire branch of Hartleys. I didn’t realize that this was what now appears to be a new STR as of 1956 when I was born.

More on DYS534

In the image above, DYS534 is coded as blue meaning that it is not considered a fast moving STR. FTDNA shows the fastest moving STRs coded in red. Furthermore, the image above is somewhat skewed in that it is only looking at the Hartley testers who tested for 111 STRs.

When I look at the 67 STR test results, things get more complicated. Here are the full results from the Hartley YDNA Project:

The first three numbers in each group is just the minimum, maximum and the mode. The first green group are people who the administrator is asking to do more testing. There are two in this group, so the mode is not significant. There are four in the second group of green. In the first group, the mode was 15 and in the second group the mode was 16 even though there was an even amount of 15’s and 16’s in both groups.

In an older Blog I wrote, I tried to find ancestral values for these STRs by going back to earlier SNPs that were ancestral to the Hartley SNP of A11132:

Parallel Mutations and Back Mutations

So how do we explain the confusing situation for DYS534? The answer is in parallel mutations and back mutatations. This would be an example of a back mutation. Say the value for DYS534 was 15 prior to the Hartleys and the Hartleys was 16. If a later Hartley had a value of 15, that would be a back mutation. In this case, that would mean that my brother Jim had the mutation that went back from 16 to 15. I don’t think that is the case. That is because there are other Hartley that have 16 and 15. Also in Jim and my closest matches, I am a further GD from those matches. This suggests that I am the one who has the mutation.

I think that my situation could be due to parallel mutations. That is where two people had the same mutation on a line that are independent of each other.

Comparing Jim with Other Hartley YDNA Testers


According to this Chart, based on the STR mode, my brother Jim has the oldest Hartley YDNA in this group. The ultimate solution for this group would if everyone took the BigY test to see where the lines sorted out.  The STRs that have the orange number below them are the slowest mutating STRs. That is why in my previous STR trees, I have tended to separate these two groups by STR #445.

Explaining the Differences in Matches Between Jim and Me

Back at 111 STRs I have three matches and Jim has five. Jim matches three people at a GD of 10 or a match of 101 out of 111 STRs. Two of those (Mervin and Gary) went off the chart as I have a STR mutation that Jm doesn’t have (DYS534). However, how does that explain Ross? I have a lower GD with Ross than Jim does. The difference must be due to DYS 534. Ross must have the same number of repeats as I have: 16.

Finding Ross

The problem with finding Ross is that he does’t have ancestors listed on my match list. On the Hartley YDNA project list, Ross’ name isn’t listed. It may be possible to find Ross by the precoess of elimination. The ones who have tested to 111 markers at the Hartley YDNA Project have these ancestors:

  • William Shephard Hartley 1851 (Mervin)
  • Thomas Hartley 1769 (Gary)
  • Robert Hartley (me)
  • David Hartley (Steve)

That means that Ross is not in the Hartley YDNA Project. In the R L513 YDNA Project, there are four Hartleys. It may be that Ross is not part of a YDNA project. After snooping around a bit, it appears that Ross is my Hartley #3 above:

[Note: Where I have Ross above in the Chart, it should actually be Lawrence. That means the STR results apply to Lawrence. However, the genealogy below does apply to Ross.]

It turns out that Ross is very important indeed, especially if his genealogy is right. Ross’ genealogy goes back to 1628. Ross has this genealogy:

It turns out that Roger Hartley is the father of Edward Hartley, so that would put him as a relative of the BigY tester I have in the chart above highlighted in gold. The gold was meant to show that these testers also tested for the BigY.

Ross’ Genealogy

In this Blog, I looked at the other Quaker genealogy in some detail. I did this to prove to myself that the genealogy seemed reasonable. In other words, I was trying to seeif I could replicate the genealogy of one of the other Hartley BigY testers. Now I would like to do the same for Ross.

My normal procedure is to create my own tree to see if I come up with the same conclustion. I don’t think that I have created a tree for Ross before, so now is a good time to start. It shouldn’t be too difficult as I am just looking at father to father:

Ross’ grandfather was Park Douglas. His birth is listed as 1880, but there is a 2 year old in the 1880 record.

Also the 1900 Census shows he was born in May 1879:

However, I don’t think that there were a lot of Park D Hartleys around, so I’ll say this is right. This could be the right information from the WWI  draft:

Ross has his name as Park Douglas. I guess that sounded better than Drear. So at some point Park moved from Indiana to Kansas.

John Hartley

Here is a marriage transcription I found:

Here is John P in 1885:

The youngest was born in Kansas, but the rest of the family was born in Indiana, so that dates the family’s move. John was part of a fraternal order. Here is his death date:

Elisha Hartley

The 1850 Census says that Elisha and his wife Sarah were born in Virginia. At this point, I took the Ancestry hint that Elisha was the father of John Hartley. The 1850 and 1860 Census don’t say that John was the the son of Elisha, but I think that it is implied.

Plus someone has posted a nice photo of Elisha and Sarah. If the Census is right, then Elisha was born about 1800, but we still have to get back to Marsden in Lancashire in the 1600’s. Here is part of a biography of John’s brother Thomas:

Here is Elisha in 1830 in what is now West Virginia:

Here are a few more Hartleys on the same page in case they are related:

Here is Monongalia County to the South of Pittsburgh:

Here is something posted from a F.A.G (FindAGrave?) Memorial:

If this is true, it is interesting as it mentions Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Also, Elisha appeared to be living next to Benjamin Hartley in the 1830 Census.

Benjamin Hartley 1766 and Cassandra Robinson

Now we are back to about the Revolutionary War. Here are some Hartleys in the 1800 Census for Bucks County, Pennsylvania:

More on this Early Hartely LIne

I found a Hartley web page put togethery by M.J.P. Grundy.

Children of Thomas Hartley and his wife Elizabeth (Paxson)[31]

i. Sarah3, b. 7 Tenth Month (Dec.) 1726; d. 29 Jul 1795 in her 69th year; m. ca. 1746 Jacob BEANS (he d. 13 Nov. 1807); 8 children. Jacob m(2) widow Hannah IDEN. He d. 13 nov. 1807 in his 87th year.[32]

ii. Mary, b. 19 Eleventh Month (Jan.) 1727/8; d. 15 Seventh Month (Sept.) 1746; unmarried.[33]

iii. Thomas, b. 6 5th mo. (July) 1729; d. 2 2nd mo. (Apr.) 1736.

iv. Anthony, b. 3 Tenth Mo. (Dec.) 1730; d. 1 May 1811; m(1) 29 Oct. 1755 Elizabeth SMITH of Wrightstown. Anthony and Elizabeth had 7 children. Elizabeth d. 3/8m/1769). Anthony m(2) 17 Apr. 1771 Sarah BETTS. She was b. 14/4m (June) 1747, daughter of Thomas and Sarah (Smith) Betts of Buckingham. They had 6 more children.

v. William, b. 15/2m (Apr.) 1732; d. during the night of 31 Dec. 1807-1/1m (Jan.) 1808; m 30 Nov. 1757 Catherine FISHER at Buckingham MM. Catherine b. 28 Apr. 1740.[35]

vi. Elizabeth, b. 16/11m (Jan.) 1733/4; m. 1753 John FELL at Buckingham MM. John Fell was b. 1 Apr. 1730; 5 children, including Rachel (b. 10 Oct. 1770; m. John Paxson).[36]

vii. Martha, b. 26/6m (Aug.) 1735; m. Luke WILLIAMS and had 5 children.[37]

viii. Anne, b. 8/5m (July) 1738; d. 28 Feb. 1758; m. 1757 James HILL.[38]

ix. Rachel, b. 2/5m (July) 1740; m. 12 June 1765 Ephraim SMITH under the care of Buckingham MM. He was the son of Thomas2 and Elizabeth (Sanders) Smith, and a grandson of William1 and Mary (Croasdale) Smith. Rachel and Ephraim had 8 children when they were granted a certificate of removal to East Caln MM in Chester Co., Penna. on 6 May 1783.[39]

x. Joseph, b. 18/8m (Oct.) 1742; d. 9 Jan. 1824 in Monongalia Co. [now West] Va.; m(1) Sarah RICHARDS 1 son; m(2) Elizabeth WASSON (she was b. 12 Oct. 1747; d. 6 Oct. 1834); had 10 children.[40]

xi. Benjamin, b. 6/10m (Dec.) 1745 in Lahaska; d. ca. Aug. 1804; m 12 Apr. 1769 Elizabeth SIMCOCK, at Buckingham MM.; she d. 13 July 1827.[41]

xii. Mahlon, b. 21/5m (July) 1749; d. 1824; m 12 February 1772 Hannah MOON, daughter of Roger, at Falls meeting house.  Hannah was b. 29 Aug. 1749. Mahlon was received at Falls Monthly Mtg. 5/2m/1772, with a certificate from Buckingham Monthly Mtg. On 7/9m/1796 Mahlon and Hannah and their children Thomas, Edward, Mahlon, Roger, and Hannah, were granted a certificate of removal from Falls Mtg to Westland Monthly Meeting. [42]


So this page didn’t follow Joseph the father of Benjamin down. However, from what I’ve read Benjamin was the son of Joseph’s first wife who died very young.

A Tree Connecting Ross and Michael

At this point, even though I haven’t fleshed out all the genealogy, I would like to create a tree that shows that possible connection between Ross who did the 111 STR YDNA test and Michael who did the Big Y test. Here is the Ross side of the tree:

Here I wanted to go two generations above the common ancestor of Ross and Michael because I and other with Hartley ancestry that stayed in England longer would likely fit in somewhere before Edward Hartley born 1666. This seems like a long time ago, but YDNA is good at going back thousands of years.

Here is how Ross and Michael are likely related:

This shows Ross and Michael as 7th cousins. One interesting thing is that the tree shows that some distant Hartley relatives were both in Kansas at the same time.

Hartley Genealogy and YDNA

The above genealogy tells me that there are the Quaker Bucks County Pennsylvania Hartleys and the Hartleys who had ancestors who stayed in Lancashire and Yorkshire longer. The Pennsylvania Hartleys have the better defined genealogy. They also have a specific common ancestor. In this case, that specific ancestor was Edward Hartley born 1666.

It also occurs to me that the common ancestor of those in the following table would be before 1666:

That branching should look like this:

Below, I have put the Pennsylvania Hartleys on the bottom of the list:

The problem with this grouping is that it has parallel mutations for marker 455. This is a slow moving marker and the chance of it changing in two different branches would seem to be low.

Here is what I was thinking:

I noticed that both Ross and Michael had STRs 449 at a value of 32 and 458 at a value of 16. I used that for the STR signature for Edward Hartley. From what I can tell is the overall Hartley Mode is the same as the Hartley Branch from England Mode.

How Does the English Side of the Hartley Family Branch Out?

That is a good question, because there is no known connection for these remaining 4 Hartley families other than the YDNA. It would help if each branch descendant had taken a BigY test and then had tested a known relative. I have done that with my brother Jim to describe our particular branch of Hartleys in Massachusetts.

At this point, I am looking at a combination of SNPs and STRs which is OK to do. Actually, we only have one SNP right now which is A11132, but more will be named when my brother’s BigY results come in.

This tree is helpful for a few reasons. This shows the date of the common ancestor of the Pennsylvania Hartleys who was Edward Hartley born in Masden, Lancashire in 1666. When I asked Steve to take the BigY test, my assumption was that our common ancestor would be later than 1666 and that we would form a new SNP branch. Assuming that FTDNA did the analysis correctly, that did not happen. That could mean a few things. One is that Steve and my common Hartley ancestor is right around 1666. That would mean that Edward Hartley was also A11132. Another perhaps more likely scenario is that the connection between Steve and I is further up the tree. That would mean that if Ross or another Pennsylvania Hartley Branch descendant took the BigY test, then that would define a new branch for those Hartleys.


The other thing that the tree shows is that I have a new mutation at DYS534. That STR will only apply to me, my son and his two babies.

Parallel Mutations for DYS534

This is a good example of parallel mutations. Because I have the same mutation as Ross and Michael, it looks like I am more closely related to them than I really am. However, they have had a value of 16 for DYS534 since at least 1666 and I have have mine only since I was born in 1956 almost 300 years later!

A Possible STR Tree for A11132 Hartleys

First, I am assuming that all these Hartleys are A11132. So far three of these Hartleys have taken the BigY, so it is a reasonable assumption:



Here I corrected my chart to show that the STRs aapply to Lawrence. I had wanted to show that English Branch 1 is older than the Edward Hartley Branch. It doesn’t look that way by the way the chart came out, but that could still be the case as I have no dating for the left hand side of the chart except for my recent mutation in 1956. In all this it is good to remember that STRs can be confusing due to parallel mutations and back mutations. However SNPs are not subject to these two phenomena. That is why SNPs are preferable in defining the male line.

Lawrence, A Third Descendant from the Bucks County, PA Hartleys

In looking back over this Blog, I see that I didn’t address Lawrence. He was the one that I matched at 67 STRs and my brother Jim did not. He also shows ancestry which should go back to Edward Hartley born in Marsden, Lancashire in 1666. Here is his tree from FTDNA starting with his grandfather:

Now I need to figure out what his STR results were. I see that I made a mistake and put Ross’ name on Lawrence’s STR results above. The good news is that it will be easy to add Lawrrence to the Pennsylvania Hartley tree:

From this I can see that Lawrence and Ross are third cousins. I will amend my STR chart to include Ross:

Here I have a placeholder for Ross in case I figure out where his STR results are.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I was happy to see that the first part of my brother Jim’s BigY test has come in. That consists of the YDNA 111 STR test.
  • That test showed a surprise for me in that I didn’t match him in all 111 STRs. That means that I had a mutation in STR DYS534.
  • In looking back at STR results for other Hartleys, it appeared that one of those Hartleys is Ross who has the common ancestor with Michael of Edward Hartley born 1666 in Marsden, Lancashire. The family was persecuted as Quakers and moved to Pennsylvania shortly before 1700.
  • I later found out that the STR test belonged to Lawrence who is also on the Edward Hartley Line. I did the genealogy for Ross and added in Lawrence’s to a tree later.
  • That information put the testers into two groups and was helpful for grouping Hartley descendants based on YDNA testing of STRs and SNPs. These two groups were the descendants of Edward Hartley born 1666 and those Hartleys who stayed longer in England.
  • My assumption is that A11132 is an older SNP and that if another descendant of Edward Hartley were to test for the BigY, that would define a new SNP for all the descendants of Edward Hartley and the Pennsylvania Branch of Hartleys.
  • I tried to build a STR tree combining the Pennsylvania and English Hartleys. However, this presented some difficulties due to the possibilities of back mutations and parallel mutations.
  • I’m still looking for the STR results for Ross.

Getting Ready for a New Hartley BigY Test

During the DNA Day YDNA sale I ordered a BigY test for my brother. Bob Wood of the FTDNA – BigY Facebook Page promotes a rule of three. That means test yourself, test a distant relative and test a close relative for BigY. That combination gives good branching for your surname – in this case Hartley. In this Blog, I’ll talk about the current state of my Branch of Hartley YDNA and what I might expect from this new test.

The Current Situation of My Branch of Hartley BigY DNA

I say my branch because there are many different Hartley branches that are not closely related. Here is where I am now with two other Hartley testers and one Smith:

Hartley and Smith

The Smith is on the right and is at R-A11138. That is where I used to be before another Hartley tested for the BigY. The common ancestor between Hartley and Smith appears to go back 13 SNPs. These SNPs were formed about every 83 to 144 years. Either number would bring the Hartley/Smith ancestor back to over 1,000 years ago.

A Hartley BigY Tester with Quaker Ancestry

The first BigY tester after me is important as he has the oldest genealogy. His Hartley Branch was of the Quaker faith and fled to Pennsylvania due to persecution in Lancashire County England . This Quaker ancestor was from Marsden which is quite close to Trawden in Lancashire, England. I have been able to trace my Hartley ancestors back to Trawden to around the year 1800.  As the Quaker ancestor was born about 1666, I would guess that our common ancestor was born possibly around the year 1600. That means that, even though the location of my Hartleys is close we are about 200 years apart in connection our genealogies. The fact that this Hartley Quaker ancestor lived in Marsden suggests that my Hartley ancestors may have been in the same Parish for those 200 years.

A Third BigY Tester

Not too long ago, a third Hartley from the same branch had a BigY 700 test. I also upgraded my BigY 500 to BigY 700 so we would get consistent results. I had thought that this new tester would result in a new Hartley Branch. However, as a result of the new test, FTDNA did not determine that there was a new branch. Assuming that FTDNA was right, that would mean that we all share the same SNP (A111320) within the period of time in which a SNP would form. That time is anywhere between 83 and 144 years. A male generation is between 31 and 38 years or say about 35 years. That means that the three of us would all descend from Hartleys within  two or four generations. In addition, we must all three descend from one particular person. This person is likely to have been a Hartley but that is not sure.

What I Expect From My Brother’s New BigY Test

It will be a while until the BigY test for my brother is expected. FTDNA predicts that the STR results will be done in June this year and the BigY completed in July. After that there is likely to be a manual review which will take longer. The result of my brother’s test will be at a minimum to put the two of us into a new YDNA Branch. This branch will likely be formed from most or all of my now private variants. I say part or all, because having a new Haplogroup with 6 new SNPs in it seems like a lot. It seems like a lot because between the three Hartley BigY testers there are an average of 4 private variants. If there is an average of 4 between 3 people there must be about twelve total private variants between the three of us. That means that I have half the private variants between three people which seems high.

My Six Private Variants

My six private variants are here:

This is the pool of SNPs from which my brother should match me. I’ll look these positions up at YBrowse:

That means that four of my private variants have been around waiting for a match since 2016 and none have been found. That is where my brother comes in. His test will show where he matches me. As a result of my upgrade to BigY 700, I now have two more private variants. I’m not sure why they are listed in different years, I suppose they were both found around the turn of the year.

The new tree will look like this:

The Block of SNPs will have to have a SNP name that will represent the new Block. For example A11131. I have many second cousins. That would bring the tree back two more generations. It is possible that testing one of these second cousins would also create a new branch.