In my previous Blog on Mayflower White YDNA, I was surprised to find out that my friend’s YDNA test supported his direct descent from William White of the Mayflower. My friend always believed that he was descended from William White, but most recent genealogical scholarship seemed to put that into doubt due to an illegitimacy in his White line in early Plymouth Colony hisory. In this Blog I would like to see if I could find out any more about my friend’s Mayflower YDNA. He took the 37 STR test which is what I recommended. I had recommended that as it would have been enough to show that he didn’t match other Mayflower Whites. As it turned out, his test showed that he matched almost all Whites and one White who had a proven ancestry back to William White of the Mayflower.
Predicting the Mayflower White YDNA Haplogroup
The easiest way to predict the Mayflower White YDNA Haplogroup would be to join the R1b – All Subclades FTDNA YDNA Project and have them figure it out. I joined my friend to this group, but it is a large group, so difficult to figure out on my own where he would belong based on his limited test. My friend is R-M269 which is one of the most popular Haplogroups for Northwestern Europeans – sometimes referred to as Northern Atlantic Europeans. I joined my friend to the R1b – All Subclades Group, but it could be a while before his is put in a more specific Haplogroup. Here is the tip of the iceburg view for R1b:
M269 is near the top of this tree in the pink or red area. My own Hartley YDNA is somewhere on the bottom left in the green area under L21. I am also under L513 which has its own group and two page tree. When I say this is a large group, there are over 26,000 members. That means that to download the results takes a long time. The results go out to 111 STRs, so that means about 3 million bits of information.
One cut is whether my friend is L21 or U106, or actually P312 or U106. According to ISOGG:
Here is what my friend has for DYS390:
That looks like R-P312 so far.
Hmm, split decision.
CDYa is 37, so that favors U106. The difference between P312 and U106 is that P312 is believed to be an older YDNA from Great Britain and U102 would be from the Anglo Saxons who were originally from Germany. The name England comes from Anglo. While Britain refects the earlier P312 people. Here is a map showing where the Britons and Saxons were around the year 600:
Here is some more information:
Of the three markers, it appears that DYS390 is the most important and that would more likely put my White friend in R-P312.
I tried this predictor:
I downloaded the White YDN37 STRs and put them here and got these results:
This seems to be getting somewhere. My Mayflower White desendant friend is pretty sure to be R1b-DF49. The YSEQ site also has this map:
The good news is that there are fewer than 1,000 members in the DF49 FTDNA Haplogroup Project:
I was able to find DF49 on the ‘iceburg’ tree above. Here is a closeup of the L21 section of that tree:
My Hartley YDNA is under L513 in the bottom left. That is a pretty big group which has two pages of trees now. My White friend appears to be under DF49 which is under Z3+589. If this is right, that puts White under the older British people (vs the newer Anglo Saxons).
Dating Mayflower STRs
Dating these STRs is not a precise science. In the YSEQ map above DF49 is shown at 2500 BC. in the green tree above, its predecessor L21 is shown at 2300 BC, but that is in the ball park. The point is that the M269 which is what my Mayflower friend and his proven match show are actually DF49. That brings them from about 4500 BC to around 2500 BC:
That’s an improvement of about 2,000 years.
Here is some further branching for DF49:
Mayflower White is DF49 > M222?
Based on the YSEQ Haplogroup Predictor, Mayflower White is DF49. I found this at mayflowerdna.org:
From this aricle, a different predictor was used (the Nevgen.org R1b clade predictor). This Predictor came up with the M222 which is five SNPs under DF49. I don’t necessarily agree with the stated view above that the White family came from Ireland and Scotland. I don’t think that conclusion is supported by the YDNA testing. That article had this footnote which I could not find:
This article probably refers to the person at the Mayflower YDNA FTDNA Project who is listed as a proven Mayflower descendant.
FTDNA also has an M222 Haplogroup Project:
This group is larger than its parent DF49. I like trees and the one they have at the M222 Project Page:
This brings us into Roman times (100 BC). However, there is some confusion on the dating. This branching is determined by BigY testing which has not been done yet for the Mayflower White families. Not all branches are created equal. There are six branches. The most popular is S658 on the right. This is good news as it brings the Mayflower Whites from 4500 BC to 100 BC, an improvement of about 4500 years. The tree above is also called a tip of the iceburg chart as not all the branches are shown.
M222 and STRs
The “About Us” Page for the FTDNA M222 Project says this:
THE MODAL STR VALUES THAT COLLECTIVELY INDICATE R-M222 STATUS
DYS390 = 25
DYS385b = 13
DYS392 = 14
DYS448 = 18
DYS449 = 30
DYS464 = 15-16-16-17
DYS456 = 17
DYS607 = 16
DYS413 = 21-23
DYS534 = 16
DYS481 = 25
DYS714 = 24
In some to most cases the first three STRs in the list above are adequate to establish possible membership in this group. If you have at least two of those three values and differ by only one at the mismatching marker, you may (though not certainly) a member of the R-M222 Haplogroup. A SNP test for the R-M222 marker could establish firmly. If you are uncertain about whether you belong to Haplogroup R-M222, please contact a project administrator for advice.
My friend Gary has:
- DYS390 = 24
- DYS385b = 13
- DYS392 = 15
This is interesting because Gary has only one out of three of the STRs that are supposed to define M222. Further:
- DYS448 = 18
- DYS449 = 30
- DYS464 = 16-16-16-17
DYS456 = 17
DYS607 = 15
I bolded the values where Gary matches what would be expected of someone with M222. The additional STRs must be in the 67 STR test.
I added this kit to the M222 FTDNA Project:
The administroators think that my friend is M222 but would like him to take the BigY test to be sure and place him in the appropriate subgroup.
The White Family FTDNA YDNA Project
I added Gary to this group:
Gary is on the bottom line. He has no colored results which means he has no variations from the mode. This was discussed also in my previous Blog. The other confirmed Mayflower descendant has not joined the White Family FTDNA Project, so his results do not show there. Here is the caption for this small group of Whites:
It appears that these two other White testers with roots in Vermont may also go back to William White of the Mayflower.
Summary and Conclusions
- Based on the YSEQ Haplogroup Predictor, my Mayflower White descendant is in the Haplogroup of DF49
- This group is about 4500 years old and represents the older Britannic inhabitants of the present-day United Kingdom
- I found one web site which linked the William White Line to M222 which is the largest group under DF49.
- Based on my friend’s close STR match with a proven William White Mayflower descendant, that proven descendant must also be M222.
- If these two were to do additional YDNA testing – especially the BigY 700 test, they would likely get their YDNA Haplogroup into the genealogical timeframe.