{"id":242,"date":"2015-11-16T20:53:12","date_gmt":"2015-11-16T20:53:12","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/?p=242"},"modified":"2017-04-13T18:10:37","modified_gmt":"2017-04-13T18:10:37","slug":"the-frazer-ydna-reveal-part-3","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/2015\/11\/16\/the-frazer-ydna-reveal-part-3\/","title":{"rendered":"The Frazer YDNA Reveal: Part 3"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>In a previous Blog on the YDNA of the Frazers originating in North Roscommon, Ireland, I promised a reveal on the YDNA of my cousin Paul. As you likely recall, Paul is from the Archibald Line originating about 1715. Jonathan, who represented the James Line originating about 1717, had his YDNA tested a while back. This is what we were hoping to find out by having these two people test their YDNA:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>Are the Archibald and James Lines related to each other?<\/li>\n<li>Were the two Frazer Lines unbroken from the early 1700&#8217;s (or earlier) to now?<\/li>\n<li>Were Archibald and James Frazer brothers?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><strong>YDNA, Autosomal DNA, Mitochondrial DNA, X Chromosome?<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>There are different types of DNA testing. They are well explained at <a href=\"http:\/\/dna-explained.com\/2012\/10\/01\/4-kinds-of-dna-for-genetic-genealogy\/\">4 Kinds of DNA for Genetic Genealogy<\/a>. Basically, with YDNA, we are looking at the father&#8217;s father&#8217;s father going back tens of thousands of years. The more you test the YDNA, the closer you get to present day. So this starts at the beginning of mankind and work toward the present. This type of testing is critical to one name studies. As we are looking the one name of Frazer, it makes sense to test YDNA. Autosomal DNA (atDNA) is pretty much the opposite of YDNA. This starts at the present and works back along all your lines. However, the further back you go, the more diffused the atDNA becomes. Some ancestors&#8217; atDNA may drop out altogether.<\/p>\n<p><strong>First, the FTDNA Comparison<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>In my last Blog, I mentioned how Jonathan was R-M512. FTDNA has a computer program that looks at Jonathan&#8217;s 37 STR test. The STR test is like a YDNA fingerprint. Except in this example, the fingerprint is not always unique. FTDNA then classifies those STRs and determines what SNP test Jonathan would be positive for if he took the SNP test. The SNP is more of a positive unique ID test where the STRs can sometimes be ambiguous. However, R-M512 was not terribly helpful for Jonathan as it occurs sometime in the Stone Age. Ugh. Joanna put Jonathan&#8217;s results into an FTDNA Project called R1a1a Subclades. Based on the expert talents of the administrator there, that administrator was able to place Jonathan further down on the R1a tree at a place called L664.<\/p>\n<p>Now last Sunday, when I was in New Hampshire, I got news that Paul&#8217;s YDNA results were in. This is what I was waiting for. This would tell us if the 2 branches were the same family and if the lines were unbroken. If this were to be the case, then the YDNA results would apply to <em>all<\/em> Frazers in the project and tell them about their deep ancestry.<\/p>\n<p>FTDNA simply said that Paul&#8217;s Haplogroup (estimated SNP) was R-M198. This was further back in the Stone Age and less helpful than Jonathan&#8217;s results. For some reason, the combination of STRs did not compute well with FTDNA&#8217;s algorithms and they gave a very conservative answer. The good news was that both Jonathan and Paul were R1a which is a fairly rare YDNA for Northwestern Europe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jonathan and Paul by STRs<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>The STRs are the markers used to fingerprint the YDNA. According to Paul&#8217;s match list, Jonathan and Paul differ by a GD of 3. Now a GD is not a swear, it is something called Genetic Distance. It is simply how far off the markers are from another set of markers. So out of the 37 markers tested, there were 3 differences between the markers of Jonathan and Paul. The R-M512 is Jonathan and the R-M196 below is Paul. Can anyone spot the 3 differences?<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Jonathans-STRs.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-244\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Jonathans-STRs.jpg\" alt=\"Jonathan's STRs\" width=\"1009\" height=\"18\" srcset=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Jonathans-STRs.jpg 1009w, http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Jonathans-STRs-300x5.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 767px) 89vw, (max-width: 1000px) 54vw, (max-width: 1071px) 543px, 580px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-STRs1.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-246\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-STRs1.jpg\" alt=\"Paul's STRs\" width=\"1010\" height=\"20\" srcset=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-STRs1.jpg 1010w, http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-STRs1-300x6.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 767px) 89vw, (max-width: 1000px) 54vw, (max-width: 1071px) 543px, 580px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>I had to look very closely at the screen. The first difference between the 2 Frazer lines is at the fourth STR. Jonathan has a 10 and Paul has an 11. The other differences are on the right. 3 from the right end we see Jonathan with a 35-38 and Paul with a 35-40. The difference between 38 and 40 is 2 accounting for 2 of the 3 GDs. All of these positions have names.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/STR-Labels.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-248\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/STR-Labels.jpg\" alt=\"STR Labels\" width=\"1010\" height=\"102\" srcset=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/STR-Labels.jpg 1010w, http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/STR-Labels-300x30.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 767px) 89vw, (max-width: 1000px) 54vw, (max-width: 1071px) 543px, 580px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>Again a bit of an eye strain, but the differences between Jonathan and Paul are at DYS391 and CDY. Notice that these STRs have different colors. That is because the different STRs mutate at different rates. The red STRs have faster mutation rates. The blue ones change more slowly. The differences in the blues just represent different levels of testing. The higher the number of STRs tested, the lighter, the color of blue. So CDY where there was a GD of 2 is a fast moving STR. One would expect this would be where there would be a difference of 2 if there was to be one. The other marker of DYS391 is a slower mover. However, each STR has a published mutation rate. I have seen published rates for DYS391 that are faster than DYS385 which is shown as a fast mover. So there is more than meets the eye.<\/p>\n<p><strong>FTDNA&#8217;s TiP Report<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>FTDNA has a tool called the TiP Report. This is another mechanized way to estimate how closely you are related to a YDNA match. First, here are Paul&#8217;s YDNA matches:<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-YDNA-Matches.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-243\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-YDNA-Matches.jpg\" alt=\"Paul's YDNA Matches\" width=\"707\" height=\"198\" srcset=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-YDNA-Matches.jpg 707w, http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/Pauls-YDNA-Matches-300x84.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 707px) 100vw, 707px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>I left out the tester&#8217;s names on the left. These are Paul&#8217;s 4 YDNA matches. He has fewer matches than Jonathan. Perhaps this is because he has a more unusual combination of STRs. Paul&#8217;s first 2 matches have a GD of 3, the last 2 have a GD of 4. That is why they are further down on Paul&#8217;s match list. When I run the TiP Report, this is what I get for Jonathan and Paul.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/TiP-Chart-Paul-Jonathan.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-249\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/TiP-Chart-Paul-Jonathan.jpg\" alt=\"TiP Chart Paul Jonathan\" width=\"462\" height=\"219\" srcset=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/TiP-Chart-Paul-Jonathan.jpg 462w, http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/TiP-Chart-Paul-Jonathan-300x142.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 462px) 100vw, 462px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>This works out well, as our best guest is that Paul and Jonathan should have a common ancestor 8 generations ago. Given that, FTDNA thinks there is a 44% chance of Archibald, born around 1690 as being the common ancestor of these two. Hey, it could happen. FTDNA takes into account the speed of the mutations mentioned above, but as I mentioned above, there are differing opinions as to which\u00a0 mutation rates to use.<\/p>\n<p><strong>R1a1a Project Administrator to the Rescue<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>When I had my own Hartley R1b YDNA a while back, I found the Project Administrator to be dedicated, intelligent and helpful. So I didn&#8217;t hesitate to join Paul to the R1a and Subclades Project as soon as I got home from New Hampshire as I had a feeling that the Administrators would have some good advice and information. I was surprised to get an email the next day from Martin from the Netherlands. He had written Joanna and myself and had some recommendations. Part of what he had was generic for the L664 group. Part of what he had to say was specific to Jonathan&#8217;s and Paul&#8217;s YDNA results.<\/p>\n<p><strong>The Reveal<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>I had promised a reveal. And the answer is&#8230;. [Break for commercial] <em>Yes, they are related<\/em>. Based on Martin&#8217;s expert opinion, he was able to determine that both Jonathan and Paul were from the L664 group. I had mentioned in my last blog that Jonathan appeared to be in the process of being placed in an L664 Group. I counted and there were 61 different L664 groups, so quite a few. Here&#8217;s where Martin&#8217;s experience came in. He could tell without testing for L664 that Jonathan and Paul were L664. Here is part of the standard L664 introductory email:<em><\/em><\/p>\n<div id=\"yiv8447777698yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1392304590513_5526\" class=\"\">\n<div id=\"yiv8447777698yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1392304590513_5516\" class=\"\" style=\"padding-left: 30px;\"><em><span id=\"yiv8447777698yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1392304590513_5524\" class=\"\">Because your haplotype shows DYS388=10 this means you are part of the subclade 2. (North-Western European Branch). <\/span><span id=\"yiv8447777698yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1392304590513_5519\" class=\"\">For all other members of haplogroup R1a1 the value of DYS388 is nearly always 12, this means DYS388=10 is an unique marker for our subclade 2. <\/span><span id=\"yiv8447777698yui_3_16_0_5_1403609486508_17\" class=\"\">This subclade 2. is further identified by the SNP&#8217;s CTS4385 and L664.<\/span><\/em><\/div>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"\">So back on the STRs above. DYS388 looks like the 7th marker. Actually it is the 8th as one marker before it is a double marker. Your will see that both Jonathan and Paul have a value of 10 there. This is the marker that sets the Frazers apart. Further I responded to Martin&#8217;s email and he wrote back:<\/div>\n<div class=\"\" style=\"padding-left: 30px;\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"\" style=\"padding-left: 30px;\"><em><span id=\"yui_3_16_0_1_1447679792093_15278\">I think both Frazers must be related because their STR-haplotypes are very rare in Ireland.<\/span><\/em><\/div>\n<div class=\"\" style=\"padding-left: 30px;\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"\">This is why I was surprised at the initial results from Jonathan: due to the unusual YDNA type he had. However, I&#8217;m glad that Paul matched him. I found this statement also interesting:<\/div>\n<div class=\"\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"\" style=\"padding-left: 30px;\"><em><em><\/em><span id=\"yiv5131040722yui_3_16_0_1_1411994795089_12514\" class=\"yiv5131040722\"><span id=\"yiv5131040722yui_3_16_0_5_1403610800354_46\" class=\"yiv5131040722\">It is very remarkable that nearly all members of R1a1-CTS4385 (about 97%) have their origin only in the countries around the North Sea (British Isles, Norway\/Sweden, Denmark, NW-Germany, Netherlands). <\/span><\/span><\/em><span id=\"yiv5131040722yui_3_16_0_1_1411994795089_12516\" class=\"yiv5131040722\"><em><span id=\"yiv5131040722yui_3_16_0_5_1403610800354_55\" class=\"yiv5131040722\">The subclade R1a1-CTS4385 is represented by only 0,2 &#8211; 0,9% of the total population in the countries around the North Sea.<\/span><\/em><br id=\"yiv5131040722yui_3_16_0_1_1442777616520_9867\" class=\"yiv5131040722\" clear=\"none\" \/> <\/span><\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\">For clarification, R1a1-CTS4385 is the branch of the Frazer Tree above L664, so essentially the same thing. So L664 is rare, but rare can be good in identifying relatives. Here&#8217;s the North Sea for us geographically-challenged Americans:<\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/northsea.gif\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-250 aligncenter\" src=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2015\/11\/northsea.gif\" alt=\"northsea\" width=\"427\" height=\"427\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\">One point of putting this map up is that Ireland does not border on the North Sea. If L664 types are 0.2-0.9% around the North Sea, they must be quite a bit less in Ireland. But how did these ancestors make their way from the circumference of the North Sea to North Roscommon. The answer to that question could lend or take away credence from some family traditions linking the Frazers to the Highland Clan Fraser of Lovat.<\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\"><\/div>\n<div class=\"yiv5131040722\"><strong>More On L664?<\/strong><\/div>\n<p style=\"padding-left: 30px;\">\n<p>Nah, that&#8217;s enough for now. There will be more time later.<\/p>\n<p><strong>What Did I Learn?<\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>The YDNA testing answer to whether the Archibald and James Lines are related was not as simple as I thought it would be. It took some digging and Project Administrator expertise to find the answer.<\/li>\n<li>The 2 Frazer Lines are indeed related. This adds to family lore, older research and the Elphin Census of 1749 which shows the 2 families plus a third widow family living in Aghrafinigan, County Roscommon.<\/li>\n<li>The 2 Frazer Lines as seen in the YDNA results have not changed from the time of the common ancestors. That is, other than expected minor mutations that occur in the STRs over time on a regular basis.<\/li>\n<li>This strengthens the case for our autosomal matches between the 2 lines being just that (as well as being matches between related families).<\/li>\n<li>It looks like we are on the right track with no skeletons in the closet<\/li>\n<li>Asking whether 2 early 1700 men were brothers should be too much to ask of DNA results.<\/li>\n<li>I am thankful for all those who have tested their YDNA in the past and provided information for YDNA trees which can be used today.<\/li>\n<li>I am also appreciative of dedicated and talented Haplogroup Administrators.<\/li>\n<li>A lot of other stuff, but I don&#8217;t want to be that boring right now. Wait until later.<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In a previous Blog on the YDNA of the Frazers originating in North Roscommon, Ireland, I promised a reveal on the YDNA of my cousin Paul. As you likely recall, Paul is from the Archibald Line originating about 1715. Jonathan, who represented the James Line originating about 1717, had his YDNA tested a while back. &hellip; <\/p>\n<p class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/2015\/11\/16\/the-frazer-ydna-reveal-part-3\/\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &#8220;The Frazer YDNA Reveal: Part 3&#8221;<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6,22],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-242","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-frazer-dna","category-frazer-ydna"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/242","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=242"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/242\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":251,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/242\/revisions\/251"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=242"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=242"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.jmhartley.com\/HBlog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=242"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}