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<\/a><\/p>\nSo that is the side I am most interested in right now. Then I am more interested in Joyce’s maternal grandfather James Hartley’s side as that side is less defined than the Snell side.<\/p>\n
Here are the ancestors of James Hartley born 1862 in Bacup, Lancashire, England:<\/p>\n
Joyce’s Thru-Line suggestions start at her fourth great-grandparent level which is represented by the last column on the right above. However, I am not convinced of all the people that are already in that column – especially John Hartley, Anne Bracewell, Nathaniel Baldwin and Margreatt Baldwin. Part of the reason I’m not convinced of them is that I’m not totally convinced I have their children right: James Hartley and Betty Baldwin. They were just my best guesses.<\/p>\n Ancestry shows the Thru-Lines for James Hartley incorrectly:<\/p>\n Joyce does match Ruth by DNA but John Pilling was likely not the father of John Pilling. John’s father was Mary Pilling who later married Robert Hartley. That would make Joyce and Ruth 1\/2 3rd cousins once removed. The Thru-Lines for Mary Pilling is half right:<\/p>\n Richard is shown as a half relative which is right, but Ruth is shown as a full relative which is wrong.<\/p>\n It would be interesting to look at the Baldwin Thru-Lines as Betty\u00a0 Baldwin was a best guess that I made years ago for an ancestor. If I have the right ancestor, she was born in Bradley:<\/p>\n This appears the same Betty Baldwin that I picked to be Robert Hartley’s mother. She was born in Bradley. Here is Bradley at the orange circle below. Turns out that Nelson which didn’t used to exist grew up around it:<\/p>\n My thinking is, that if we can show a DNA match to the right Baldwin family, that would lend credence to my guess that I descend from Betty Baldwin.<\/p>\n Here are the Nathaniel Baldwin ThruLines:<\/p>\n My 2nd cousin Holly should be in the first column with Joyce. Let’s look at the two DNA matches on the right. It will be important to evaluate them:<\/p>\n Marilyn and Steve both match Joyce. Let’s look to see if their genealogy matches with what I think mine could be. When I click on the child of Nathaniel Baldwin, it goes to a site that has many trees managed by Helen. The first tree has over 50,000 people in it. I’ll look at that one. Here is part of her big tree:<\/p>\n Unfortunately, her daughter of Nathaniel is listed as private. Nathaniel’s wife is Margaret, so that matches with the birth record I had for my Betty Baldwin. Next, I have to look for a marriage for James Farrar. Here is one:<\/p>\n Here we have some competition for Betty. If this was the same Betty born in 1771, then she would have been 21 at the time of her wedding to James Farrar.\u00a0 How do we reconcile that marriage with this one?<\/p>\n This is 9 years later, so if this was the same Betty Baldwin, she would be 30. There seems to be a few possibilities:<\/p>\n My guess was that this could have been James and Betty living in a section of Trawden called Hole in 1841:<\/p>\n Now, I don’t know if this James and Betty are the parents of my Robert, or if they are another James and Betty. Dates for the 1841 were rounded up to the nearest 5 years. So if this is the same couple that got married in 1801, they would have been at the oldest 39 and 29. If this was a 70 year old Betty Baldwin in Hole in 1841, then that could fit in with her birth in 1771. That would mean that James Hartley would be between 76 and 80 at the time of the 1841 Census and would hae been born between about 1761 and 1765.<\/p>\n There were about four James Hartley’s baptized in the Parish of Colne between 1761 and 1765:<\/p>\n Ollin Hall is interesting because the family did live in the Hollin Hall area of Trawden. However, this was an Inghamite baptism. As far as I know, my Hartley ancestors were baptized at the Church of England.<\/p>\n Here is a map showing Hole (near the bottom of the map), where a James and Betty Hartley lived in 1841:<\/p>\n In 1837, it appears that Mary Pilling (now Hartley) was living in Slack Booth:<\/p>\n <\/p>\n If I read Mary’s baptismal record correctly, her Pilling parents were from Seghole:<\/p>\n The James Hartley from the 1841 Census is probably this James:<\/p>\n That would have this James born around 1863, which would most likely be the son of John and Anne Hartley born 1863. Here is a more original version of the burial record:<\/p>\n This is Little Lathe, which I take to be also Laith. Here is Little Laith:<\/p>\n Here is a confusing burial from 1840, a year before the 1841 Census:<\/p>\n This has Betty Hartley from a Hole House dying in that year. If she died in 1840, how is it that she appears to be living in 1841? Perhaps after she died, another Hartley relative named Betty came to live at the house to help out? At any rate, this Betty Hartley, if this was correct age, would have been born about 1775.<\/p>\n Next, I check out Little Laithe in 1841. It turns out that there was a different James Hartley living there:<\/p>\n Hartley’s, Hartley’s everywhere. This James was a little younger than the one at Hole.<\/p>\n I tried going from the top of the tree down – which is usually a bad idea. I’ll try the other way. I’ll try building a tree for Marilyn and Nellie Farrer. Nellie’s dad was Ernest. When he came to Ellis Island, the ship record listed his home as Accrington. Here he is in Accrington in 1901 at age 16:<\/p>\n Of interest here, Ernest’s mother was born in Colne.<\/p>\n She was a Foulds which I recognize as a Colne name. Here is the marriage record from Accrington:<\/p>\n I’m already back to the 1840’s:<\/p>\n Here is Alice in 1851 in what looks like Call in Great Marsden:<\/p>\n Alice’s mother was Alice Kippax:<\/p>\n One tree at Ancestry suggests that Alice’s grandmother was a Shackleton:<\/p>\n That is a name that is in my ancestry:<\/p>\n The 1901 Census had Henry born in Brierfield. It turns out that this is not too far from Colne:<\/p>\n This appears to be Henry in 1861:<\/p>\n His widowed mother Christiana is heading the household. Henry is shown born in Marsden. His older brother is a railway porter. In 1901 Henry worked on the railway. In 1871, Henry was a railway engine fireman living in Colne:<\/p>\n Now I am starting to get stuck, because the tree suggestions for Henry give his mother as Sarah Greenwood – not Christiana:<\/p>\n If Sarah was the mother of Henry, she would have been about 51 when he was born. Here is some more information:<\/p>\n This clearly gives Henry’s father as Joseph. This must be Joseph’s marriage record:<\/p>\n This branch does not appear to bring me to Colne right now. Here is Deane and Over Hulton in relationship to Manchester:<\/p>\n This is likely Richard Farrar’s marriage record:<\/p>\n So my tree seems to go against the suggested trees at Ancestry. Here is Marilyn’s maternal side:<\/p>\n My guess so far, is that Joyce could be related to Marilyn on the Foulds branch. Hopefully the connection is not non Marilyn’s paternal side or on her maternal grandmother Bentley’s side.<\/p>\n One of the trees above had John Foulds and Mary Shackleton for James’ parents:<\/p>\n Here we even have a Hartley as a witness. Here is the entry for James:<\/p>\n James was born in August of 1796 and baptized 22 January 1897. This is possibly Mary Shackleton:<\/p>\n Notice that there was a death of a Mary Shackleton less than a year before this baptism. Here is what I have so far:<\/p>\n Here is my tree for comparison:<\/p>\n There is a potential that Mary Shackelton born 1764 could be the sister of Nancy Shackleton born 1781. It looks like my tree could use some work:<\/p>\n I have Elizabeth born after both her parents died, so that can’t be right.<\/p>\n I also have that she was born in Hey Thorn. I don’t know where that is, but Hey is likely in Foulridge:<\/p>\n Bsaed on this exercise, I’ll take Elizabeth Shackelton out of my tree.<\/p>\n Also there was more than one John and Mary Shackleton, so that was confusing. On my Shackleton web site I have:<\/p>\n Very little is known about this family other than the father was a weaver. This family is not to be confused with the John and Mary Shackleton of Pasture. This John was a gentleman. He had 2 daughters that died fairly young with no children. According to Dennis Cairns, “Pasture House which is situated between Barrowford and the village of Roughlee. Our Shackletons lived at Pasture Meadow which is to the South of Trawden and Southweast of Hollin Hall.<\/em><\/p>\n Here is Pasture House:<\/p>\n Barrowford is to the West of Colne. Here is Pasture Springs:<\/p>\n I have that my John Shackleton died at Stone Edge, but that appears to be near Barrowford, so I may have the wrong person. Here is Pasture House in relation to Stone Edge:<\/p>\n Here is the 7 September 1788 will for this Gentleman John:<\/p>\n Will of John Shackleton of Pasture House, gent. — messuages called Stone Edge, Upper Lands or Burnt House and New House, and cottages called New Houses, all in Barrowford, with other specified properties there, to Trustees for daughter Jennet. To daughter Mary messuage called Fidling Clough in Thornton, co.York; also \u00a31000. Pasture House, Whitticroft and other specifeid properties in Barrowford and Colne, to trustees for wife Mary for life, then to daughter Jennet, subject to annuity to mother-in-law Margaret Cowgill. To wife messuage in Thornton called Windle Field, and messuage in Kildwick, co. York, for life, then to daughter Mary. Etc. (Copy-)<\/em><\/p>\n Here is Jennet:<\/p>\n This must be daughter Mary:<\/p>\n Here is an excerpt from a book,\u00a0Man’s Estate: Landed Gentry Masculinities, 1660-1900:<\/em><\/p>\n This book mentions John’s father and second wife, but not his two daughters. Here is John, son of Christopher:<\/p>\n All this shows, that the John I have in my tree is wrong:<\/p>\n <\/p>\n Perhaps this marriage has a hint:<\/p>\n I don’t know if this helps or makes things more confusing. I had that Richard Farrar was the father of Joseph Farrar above, but that was on a different line. This could be the John of Pasture House:<\/p>\n The John may be the John of the marriage above, but that would make him only about 19 at the time of marriage.<\/p>\n This appears to represent three different branches of Shackelton:<\/p>\n Here is Park Hill:<\/p>\n I have noted Salter Syke above. Wicoller is part of Trawden, so more likely related to my branch of Shackleton. Also note the spelling is a bit different.<\/p>\n Just to confuse things further, a John Shackleton from Heptonstall married someone from Great Marsden. Let’s hope he moved back to Heptonstall:<\/p>\n First, I showed that my connection to Marilyn’s ThruLines was not through my supposed Baldwin ancestor. Instead, it could be that the connection could be on my Shackleton side. Along the way, I ruled out the birth and death of my ancestor John Shackelton as that pair of birth and death dates belonged to another John Shackelton. That means that means that Christopher should also not be on my tree:<\/p>\n So that makes it interesting that Nicholas and Joyce show a ThruLine based in Christopher Shackelton:<\/p>\n Here is Nicholas’ tree:<\/p>\n Again, Ancestry wants me to evaluate Nicholas’ tree. Nicholas has his ancestor from Kirkby, Malham near Skipton, Yorkshire:<\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nJames Hartley 1763 Thru-Lines<\/h2>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nBaldwin Thru-Lines<\/h2>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/a><\/p>\nA Few Maps<\/h3>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nBack to the ThruLines<\/h4>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nHenry Farrer Born 1847<\/h4>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nBack to James Foulds<\/h3>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\nSummary So Far<\/h2>\n
<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n<\/a><\/p>\n