Hartley ThruLines Part 5

From my previous Blog, here is my Hartley DNA/Genealogy Tree:

These are people that match either me by DNA or my father’s 1st cousin Joyce. Except for Paul. I can’t remember where he came from. All these people also have a possible connection to John Hartley and Anne Bracewell who are my possible 5th great-grandparents.

In this Blog, I will look a little more into the Line of Robert Hartley born 1758. I have mentioned Elaine in a few of my previous Blogs on Hartley ThruLines. She helped me with some local geography in the area around Colne. I connected with one of her genealogy trees which helped me on the Mary Lee born 1801 Line above. She is a friend also. And she also appears on my father’s cousin Joyce’s ThruLines:

Karen also shows up there. I have a Paul on my DNA/Genealogy tree also, but don’ t recall who matched him.

Elaine and Joyce

Unfortunately, Elaine’s tree does not show the same connection as the ThruLine:

At the point where ThruLines goes Thomas > Robert > John, Elaine’s tree goes from Thomas > James > Thomas. I’ll take a look to see how these two trees differ.

Here are Albert and family in 1891:

Here is Robert with his family in 1871:

Here is my simple reconstructed tree so far:

In 1861, Thomas Hartley was living at Laneshaw Bridge in Colne:

Here is some more information on Thomas Hartley:

Here is some more information:

This is interesting as the 1841 Census took place before this time. Elaine shows this as the 1841 Census for the family:

Here father Thomas is shown as a weaver rather than a farmer. Back to a weaver at son Thomas’ birth:

Who was the Father of Thomas Hartley?

I have a feeling that Elaine’s answer will be better than Ancestry on this one. Both the ThruLines and Elaine’s tree have a Thomas Hartley born 1788. When I check for the evidence of Thomas Hartley in the ThruLines, I get this:

There is one member tree, but when I look at clive’s tree, it is the same as Elaine’s. Here are some baptisms for Thomas in 1788:

Is this the same person?

At any rate, none of these Thomases are the son of a Robert Hartley. Here are the only Thomases, sons of Roberts I could find:

If there was a connection, it would have to be with the second entry, as I have that Robert married Peggy, a nickname for Margaret. Having said that, I see that the Mary I have on my tree is here:

This was the match with Paul that I cannot remember entering:

For now I’ll leave Elaine off my DNA/Genealogy Chart. I have only showed that she could fit into that chart. It occurs to me that there are many other ways in which we may be related. However, I have shown, at least in a quick overview, that it is possible that her genealogy could connect with John Hartley and Anne Bracewell. As I review this line further, more information may come to light.

Joyce and Karen

On Karen’s tree, she has traced her ancestry back to a Robert Hartley:

Assuming that Karen’s tree is correct, it appears that the Robert in her tree could be the one from the ThruLines. That is, based on the date of hte birth of John Hartley in 1796. However, on closer inspection, I see that Hannah Hartley was from Rawtenstall:

Rawtenstall is several miles from Colne and closer to my Emmet ancestors who lived in Bacup:

Time to check out Karen’s tree. Here is a young Charles Harvey and his family:

Charles’ father Richard was a quarry man. Here is my specific tree in progress:

However, it is Betsy that we are intrerested in. According to the 1911 Census above, the whole family was born in Rossendale. This appears to be a general area including Rawtenstall:

This appears to be the marriage registration index for Betsy Terry:

Here are Betsy’s family in the 1871 Census for Rawtenstarll. Betsy is on the next page:

Hannah Hartley Terry

It appears that Hannah Terry was born in Rutt Lee? The 1881 Census shows that Hannah has passed away:

So Hannah should be born around 1826. According to the 1861 Census, Thomas either had a different wife, or Hannah also went by Nancy:

Here is an interesting entry for a Hannah Hartley:

I should note that I have Howorth in my ancestry. However, Ancestry has this hint:

I see that as a good choice due to this bapstismal entry:

The problem (or good news) is that this brings the family back to Colne. The reason that I like Rough Lee is that it sounds like Rutt Lee from the 1871 Census. It looks like this was a large family. Here they are in Mill Gate, Lower Booths, Rawtenstall:

Actually, this looks like two families. I can’t make out the name of the second family. Lower Booths is to the North of Rawtenstall:

These two additional baptsims from Colne further tie this Rossendale family back to Colne:

I was despairing of finding a connection to Colne, but this appears to be the connection. From the 1841 Census, my guess is that the 28 year old Mary Hartley could be the child of Jane as she is older than John.

Was John Hartley the Son of Robert Hartley?

Assuming the ThruLines from Ancestry, John Hartley the son of Robert Hartley should have been born in 1779. This John Hartley was 45 or older at the time of 1841 Census. That means that he could have been born between and about 1792 and 1796. That means that he would not be a very good match if his age was reported accurately in the 1841 Census.

I do note that John named a potential eldest son Robert. That means that he could have been named for John’s father. Assuming that John’s father was a Robert, I come up with these potential parents for John:

Karen’s ThruLine Hints for John Hartley

The ThruLines hints for Karen and Joyce were more straightforward than the hint for Joyce and Elaine:

Here, I chose the Schofield Family Tree with 24 records on John Hartley:

Here we see Robert and Peggy as John’s parents. Here are some more details from the tree:

Of interest is that he shows John’s father Robert Hartley dying in Haslingden in 1845. Under this scenario, the Robert Hartley who was 80 in 1841 in the house of John Hartley in Rawtenstall must be his father Robert.

Here is more of the Schofield Tree:

Updating the Hartley/Bracewell DNA/Genealogy Tree

As I mention above, it seems possible that Elaine and Karen could be added to the Tree. I’ll put them in to see how it looks. If Elaine and Karen match each other by DNA, then that would also help to solidify the tree. Here I have added Karen:

I still hope that I can figure out who Paul is. Here is Elaine added in:

I checked at least one tree at Ancestry and it showed that Robert above born 1758 did have twins.


Finding Paul

I finally found Paul in this Blog from 2019. I built his tree out from a tree that only had five people in it (but two parents):

His parents were from New Bedford which is where my Hartley ancestors ended up. I found Paul in an interesting way. He was a shared DNA match betwen my father’s cousin Joyce and Kristin:

Because Paul was a shared match with Kritin and Joyce, that meant that his connection went back to 1861 or earlier. When I did the genealogy, it appeared that the connection went back to John Hartley from 1730. Another connection with Sheryl along the Susy Hartley Line of 1755 seemed to confirm the tree. Sheryl was another shared DNA match between Kristin and Joyce. As a result, I put John Hartley and Anne Bracwell into my Ancestry Tree. Fast forward more than four years later and now there are many more DNA connections with possible genealogical connections as shown in Ancestry ThruLines.

I just need to add in Kristin and Joyce, and I should be done with this Blog:

And the tree is not yet finished. I will continue in a later Blog.

Summary and Conclusions

  • In this Blog, I looked at ThruLines between my father’s cousin Joyce and Elaine and Karen
  • Both Elaine and Karen had possible links to Robert Hartley born 1758 who married Peggy Sellers. Robert appears to be the son of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.
  • I hesitated adding Elaine to the tree as she has her own differing tree. Also I had trouble figuring out from the Ancestry evidence how Elaine was added to the ThruLines.
  • The mounting evidence seems to be that these many DNA matches support the theory that John Hartley and Ann Bracewell are my ancestors. This is good news, because going on the genealogy alone, it was too difficult to narrow down my Hartley ancestors.
  • I then reviewed match Paul who is not on the ThruLines. I had found him in 2019 and also traced his line back to Robert Hartley born 1758 and John Hartley born 1730.
  • Because Paul was a shared match between Joyce and Kristen, that meant that he was more likely to have an older Hartley connection.


Hartley ThruLines Part 4

I have been having good results in my previous Blogs. In my previous Blog, I looked at ThruLines from John Hartley and Anne Bracewell through their daughter Nancy. She had 10 children, so potentially, a lot of descendants. In this Blog, I will look at more Nancy Hartley ThruLines through my father’s cousin, Joyce.

Joyce is a good choice because she is a generation earlier than me and should have twice as much Hartley DNA compared to me:

Here is the Hartley/Bracewell DNA/Genealogy Tree I have so far:

Here are Joyce’s ThruLines through Nancy Hartley:

Laura’s tree ends in Jesse Howorth:

It turns out that I already have a tree for Laura:

However, I had stopped the tree at Eliza Lee. This tree was made back in 2018 before I knew about Joyce’s ThruLines apparently.

Joyce and Laura

This line should be easy as I already mentioned Eliza in my previous Blog. She identifies her father-in-law in the 1851 Census:

I’m feeling good about Nancy’s 11 children, so I added them to my Ancestry Tree:

So here, John has Eliza who has Jesse. It appears that Laura’s tree checks out.

Adding Laura to My Hartley Tree

Laura adds another piece to the puzzle. Obviously, a lot is riding on the fact that Thomas Lee’s wife Nancy was Nancy Hartley the daughter of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.

Joyce and Robin

Here Ann Lee shows in white on Robin’s side. This is probably because I just added Ann to my tree. I get this hint in my tree for Ann:

Robin has an extensive tree which I will assume to be accurate at this point. Here is her maternal side:

I will add Robin to my Hartley/Bracewell Tree:

Unfortunately, I don’t show Joyce on this tree, but she would be in the same generation as my father. So Joyce is 5th cousin once removed to Laura and Robin.

Joyce and Shaz

All the ThruLines seem to be working out so far:

Interestingly, shaz shows to be descended from Mary who Nancy Hartley Lee had when she was almost 47 years old. Shaz’ tree stops at James Wilkinson:

If I can show that James Wilkinson was the son of Mary Lee, that may be good enough. It turns out that Mary is in the tree of my genealogy friend, Elaine:

Elaine has saved me some time in connecting Mary Lee to James Wilkinson. This connection is good enough for me:

Here the tree is getting wider, reflecting the large family that Nancy Hartley Lee had.

Summary and Conclusions

  • My father’s first cousin Joyce showed three ThruLines from the Nancy Hartley Line. These all appear to check out.
  • Evidence is mounting that we have many connections to Nancy Lee who appears to be Nancy Hartley and the daughter of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.
  • I previously had not documented these Nancy Hartley descendants and now show 6 DNA matches between myself and my father’s cousin Joyce.
  • I will continue working on Hartley/Bracewell Thrulines in subsequent Blogs.


Hartley ThruLines Part 3

My Hartley Tree at Ancestry ends in John Hartley and Anne Bracewell:

Unfortunately, I do not have good genealogical evidence that these are my correct ancestors past Robert Hartley. There were so many Hartleys born in the area of Colne, that it makes it difficult to figure things out. I say this because when Ancestry looks for ThruLines, it is trying to look for matches to John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.

Summarizing the Hartley/Bracewell ThruLines

I have 7 Ancestry tests to deal with. These are me and four out of five of my siblings. Then there are two of my father’s first cousins.  I’ll start with myself:

Here I have those that are believed to be the children of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell other than James. I have that my family is possibly from the line of James. Then I have the person that I match from that line. I match three from the line of Nancy. Then I have how much I match  those proposed descendants of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell (in centimorgans)

Although this is helpful, I think that it would be more helpful to show this information on a family tree. I have already started such a tree:

This will show the branching of the matches, so I think this is more infomative. At the time I made this tree (2019), I had no matches from the Nancy Line. Now I have at least three:

However, I am now running into a different problem. Notice how there are two John Lees in this tree. It could be that one of these matches doesn’t belong in the tree or that the two John Lees are the same person.

Here is the same level of ThruLines for my father’s first cousin Joyce:

Joyce has three different matches and only one John Lee.

As a side-note, Maury who is my father’s other 1st cousin, does not have the same ThruLines. He shows James as son of Robert instead of John Hartley and Anne Bracewell:

Two John Lees

Before I add to my Hartley DNA/Genealogy Chart, I will want to figure out why there are two John Lees in my ThruLines. I’ll start with my larger match:

Joel and J.S.

J.S. has a nice tree:

Ancestry wants me to follow J.S.’s Line from Crabtree to Lee rather than from Crabtree to Betty Hartley:

It turns out I already made a tree for J.S., but I did not carry it far enough back:

I was following the Betty Hartley Line apparently:

According to an Ancestry Hint, this Betty Hartley Line appears to go to a Nancy Hartley who was from Thornton in Craven. Thornton-in-Craven is not too far from East Marton which is what I was looking at in my previous Blog.

Michael Lee b. 1803

Here is the family in 1841:

They are living in Reedy Moor ‘Folridge’ which I take to be Foulridge.

The faint red arrows points to Reedy Moor Lane which is to the West of Foulridge and North of Colne.

The 1851 Census has Michael born in Thornton, Yorkshire:

The Census is a bit confusing as Alice Crabtree is the daugther of Michael and Barbara Lee. I assume that Barbara had previously married a Crabtree. If this is the case, then Michael should not be the father of Alice as the tree shows above.

Here is Thornton where Michael is said to be born in the 1851 Census:

I think I see my mistake. It appears that Alice was married in the 1851 Census to Samuel Crabtree. Usually husband and wife are listed together, but here Samuel is listed as a lodger rather than a son-in-law. This marriage took place shortly before the 1851 Census:

Here is some more on Michael Lee:

Unfortunately, the marriage record does not give the parents for Michael Lee and there are two choices for his birth. One Michael was born in Harden and one in Higher Hague.

If the map is right, this is Higher Hague:

I think this may be Harden or near Harden Road a bit further North:

Michael Lee has a son Henry, which could favor Michael Lee being the son of Henry Lee of Harden. However, the date of Michael Lee in the Census records favors the later birth.

John Lee

Here is the marriage of John Lee:

Here we see that John is the correct father of Michael as he shows the connection to Thornton in Yorkshire. Expanding the 1851 Census shows John Lee:

John’s daughter Eliza apparently marries a Howorth. This Census is important as it shows that John was born in Colne. Based on his age of 70, John was born around 1781. This would make him 22 at the time of his marriage which is reasonable:

In addition, Ancestry recommends an earlier birth:

I assume this is based on his birth in Colne. However, I assume that Coln is also Colne. The ThruLines has John’s mother as Nancy Hartley.

Here is some more information on Eliza Lee:

She is living in Colne at the time of her marriage in 1841 and her father John Lee is a farmer. Here is some more helpful information on Eliza:

Her mother’s name was Ann. Actually, I alreaady had her as Nancy or Nanny. However, we see that she was born in Foulridge. Now, oddly, the father is a hatter.

Here is John and Family in 1841:

I can’t make out the name of the House he was living at. The two entries before this were Wanlass Wastes and Slipper Hill. My best guest would be Wanlass House. The map is a bit busy, but gives the relative location to the Wanlass Water Farm:

Here is the next page of the 1841 Census:

Was John Lee’s Mother Nancy Hartley?

For this to be true, the John Lee who was shown in the Census to be born about 1881 in Colne would have to be the same as:

Then the Nancy from this baptism would have to be Nancy Hartley. I have already shown that the wife of John Lee was likely Ann or Nancy Wilson, but was his mother Nancy Hartley?

Here we see a Thomas Lee/Nancy Hartley wedding in 1774 and a birth from the same couple later that year.

Who Were Nancy Hartley’s Parents?

We would be looking for a Nancy born aroun 1753, assuming that Nancy was 21 when she married:

  1. This Nancy has a baptism date of 1747/1748 because this was before the time the calenday shifted. The new year used to be March 25, so it would have been still 1747 in February, but more like our current 1748 if I understand it correctly. At any rate, Nancy would have been about 27 at the time of her marriage.
  2. This Nancy would have been 19 at the time of her marriage.
  3. This Nancy would have been 18 at the time of her marriage
  4. This Nancy would only be 15.

These are some more of the children of the couple:

If the traditional naming pattern was used, Nancy would have named her second son after her father. Unfortunately, that would have been John. My first two choices for the father of Nancy were aslo named John Hartley.

There are too many John Hartley marriages to investigate. However, here is a possible scenario. Say I pick the Nancy Hartley who was born in 1754 in Trawden. She could have been the daughter of this couple:

Let’s further suppose that Nancy was the daughter of Anne. They may have named her Nancy to distinguish her from her mother Anne. This seems to be a house of cards, but one that may be gaining support.

I already liked the branching of this ThruLine:

What I mean by that is that there are three different matches all going back to Nancy Hartley. The only thing I would change at this point is that it appears that Nancy was born in 1754 rather than 1752.

A New Hartley DNA/Genealogy Tree

I have found these trees to be helpful. I don’t have immediate access to the tree I showed earlier in the Blog, so I wrote up a simplified version:

I previously had only two lines represented which were my line (James) and the Robert Hartley Line. Now having three lines makes the possibility of my descent from John Hartley and Anne Bracewell seem more likely. The interesting thing about my previous tree is that my immigrant ancestor’s second cousin Richard Holgate had moved from Blackburn to New Bedford. I wonder if Greenwood ever got in touch with him in New Bedford.

Additional Lee Lines

I would like to look at the other two Lee Lines. One should be easy as it has a John Lee from 1779. This is the same John that I had surmised was correct in the previous Line going down to J.S.

John and Joel

My match with John looks like this:

It appears that the only connection I need to look at is between John Lee and Martha Lee. It turns out that I already have an image of the 1841 Census with Martha in it. It turns out that John also has that same reference:

However, DNA match John in his tree, did not make the same connection that I did with Ann Lee being Nancy Wilson. Interestingly, if I had seen John’s tree, I would have focused on the Richard Hartley/Martha Bracewell Line. That shows how helpful these ThruLines can be.

I also see that John and I have a shared match with J.S., but also a Wilkinson. The Wilkinson match is confusing, because I think I am related to the Wilkinsons on the Pilling side rather than the Hartley side.

Here is Martha’s baptismal transcription:

Here is my addition of my 6th cousin John to the Tree:

That is, of course, assuming that I have the correct tree.

Gabrielle and Joel

Ancestry appears to want me to evaluate Gabrielle’s entire line. Gabrielle’s tree goes back to Jane Lee:

The marriage record for Edith Miles gives her parents:

We find the Lee name in the marriage index:

Here is my version of Gabrielle’s tree so far:

Jane’s Anglican Marriage record gives her birthplace and parents:

In the 1871 Census for Burnley, we see that Robert Lee was from Colne:

Here is 11 year old Robert Lee living in Lenches, Great Marsden in 1851 – next to another Robert Lee family:

Here is Robert’s family enumerated on the previous page next to the Shackelton family:

Robert Lee Sr

The above Census has Robert born in Earby, Yorkshire:

In my list of children of Thomas and Nancy Lee above, I stopped at 1788, but the list goes on:

My guess is that these were all from the same family. The only problem is that if Nancy was born in October 1754, she would have been 46 going on 47 when she had Mary. Possible, but somewhat rare. In support of Mary Lee, I see at the start of the Blog that my father’s first cousin Joyce has a ThruLine going up to Mary Lee born in 1801.

Revised Hartley/Bracewell DNA/Genealgy Tree

The tree is starting to fill out:

This tree compares well with my Ancestry ThruLines:

I have the three matches from the Nancy Hartley lineage. I have not checked the Susan Hartley Line yet. I have Paul instead of Nora from the Robert Hartley Line. I will check out the Susan and Robert Hartley Lines in my next Blog.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I started out trying to summarize the ThruLines going back to John Hartley and Anne Bracewell. These were difficult to summarize without trying to verify them.
  • Instead, I looked at the genealogies of the ThruLine matches going back to the Nancy Hartley Line. These three all either checked out or proved to be possible or likely.
  • It was helpful that Nancy Hartley had 10 children
  • I found it significant that the branching for these matches went back to around the year 1800. Two matches were from the UK and one was from Australia.
  • I entered the Nancy Hartley Line onto a Hartley/Bracewell DNA/Genealogy Chart
  • Having these extra matches appear to solidify the likelihood that my ancestors could have been John Hartley and Anne Bracewell. I had earlier identified them as the most likely candidates and the ThruLines seem to back that up
  • I continue to maintain a healthy skepticism concerning the results and want to be open to other possibilities. Going back to 6th cousins opens up a lot of possibilities and other family lines which are out there.
  • In my next Blog, I will follow other ThruLine leads from John Hartley and Anne Bracewell.


Hartley ThruLines Part 2

In Part 1 of Hartley ThruLines, I looked at my DNA match Paul with proposed common ancestors. I had trouble figuring out some of the details of Paul’s Hartley genealogy. I then looked at a match between my father’s cousin Joyce and the Ainsworth Line. This line was more promising, but I got bogged down. I notice that the first ThruLine remains, while the second one has disappeared at Ancestry for some reason. In this Blog, I will continue to look at proposed ThruLines to see if they lead me anywhere.

Maury’s ThruLines

Maury is my father’s first cousin and his DNA is managed by his daughter. Here is what Maury has:

I know the first two matches are not right as they are on the Pilling and not Hartley Line. The William Hartley shows probably because of this Wiliam I have in my tree:

I had him there because I thought that James and Betty Hartley were the parents of my ancestor Robert Hartley and that they had another son named William. However, I have not been able to prove either. At any rate, Maury shows three possible connections to a William Hartley. However, this William shows as being born in 1804 instead of 1805. Let’s look.

One tree with William Hartley has this information:

This is interesting because this is the same family that I was looking at in my previous Blog. However, I did not have Henry and John Hartley. Here are Maury’s matches:

It looks like Barry and his two children and his brother Russell. They all descend from Jack Whattaker from Australia. I also note that there is the Pilling name in there.

Shared Matches with Maury

When I look at Maury and Barry’s shared matches, I see one and probably two with Hartley ancestry. Norman is one shared match with Barry and here is Norman’s tree:

Norman has Hartleys on both sides of his tree. Norman has a William Hartley who married a Mary Pickles instead of the Jane Pickles that is in Maury’s ThruLines. Interesting, but I won’t look at it further right now.

Checking Out the Whittaker Tree

Hopefully, this should be easy. I’ll start with Russel’s Tree:

When I make my own tree, I see that Russel’s great-grandfather was born in Trawden and his paternal great-grandmother Jane Blackburn was born in Winewall, next door:

Here is my own version of the Whittaker Tree:

Ancestry wants me to choose John Pilling and Ann Hartley as Jane’s parent’s, but I don’t want to blindly accept these hints.

The 1871 Census does note a Jane Pilling living in Winewall:

She was living next to a Blackburn family, but I do not see a Stephen in this particular family at this time. Another interesting thing about this Pilling family is that the mother came from Marton, Yorkshire. In my previous Blog, I was looking at a Hartley ThruLine between myself and Paul:

This seems like too much of a coincidence. The Ann (possibly Hartley) from this Blog was born about 1834 according to the 1871 Census. In my previous Blog, I was also confused as to why Ann Hartley’s father appeared to be Samuel Bell:

Summary to This Point

As all this information is confusing, I will try to summarize to see if I can reduce the confusion:

  • I have a ThruLine with Paul. His ancestry tracks back to an Ann Hartley. For some reason, her father is listed as Samuel Bell, Blacksmith at her marriage to John Pilling in 1853 and she is listed on the Census as born in Marton, Yorkshire. Paul’s tree has Ann later married to a Hartley Blackburn but no sources are given.
  • My father’s cousin Maury has a ThruLine with four people on the Whittaker Line. That Line goes back to Jane Blackburn (married name) married to Stephen Blackburn. According to Ancestry Hints, she is the daughter of John Pilling and Ann Hartley born 1831 and listed above. If this is the case, then the common ancestor between these two trees is Ann Hartley.

It helps for me to create a chart:

On the left side of the chart, there would be more matches descending from Jack Whittaker. The reason this could be important is that both these lines go back to Ann Hartley and I don’t have many Hartley leads in my DNA matches that could give a clue on my Hartley heritage.

More on Ann Hartley

I asked my genealogy friend Elaine who was originally from the Trawden/Colne area about Marton and she sent me this map:

At the top of the map is West and East Marton. Elaine says a canal goes through the Town and down to Colne.

Elaine also came up with this 1851 Census which was helpful:

Recall that at the time of her marriage, Ann was living in Smithy Field. Here she is in 1851 – a few years before her marriage. Here she is after her marriage in 1861 in Trawden with John – although his last name looks like Billing:

Also Joseph Hartley who was Ann’s son is now called Joseph Pilling. This also accounts for the Jane Pilling who I was having trouble finding.

My thinking is that this should be Ann Hartley:

Anne’s mother was Anne Joanna Hartley. Here is another child of Ann Johanna named William Hartley:

William was born September 7, 1829. I am having trouble finding any of these three people in the 1841 Census. This appears to be William in 1851:

He is a lodger in East Marton. He is with Richard Hartley who is the son of Nancy Hartley who was born in Settle:

Here is Settle:

I feel like I am running out of information on Ann Joanna or Joahanna Hartley at this point.

Samuel Bell

At the time of Ann Hartley’s marriage in 1853, she gave the name of her father as Samuel Bell. Could it be that she had information of who her father was? Here is a Samuel Bell living in Barnoldswick in 1861:

Let’s do the math. Samuel was born around 1806. Ann Hartley was born 1832. That means that Samuel would have been 26 years old when Ann Hartley was born. That sounds reasonable. Just to add a little confusion, Samuel lists his father in his 1840 marriage record as what appears to be John Slater:

Summary and Conclusions

  • I looked at DNA matches from ThruLines to a William Hartley. One match was between Paul and myself. The other match was between my father’s 1st cousin Maury and Russel
  • Both these matches had an Ann Hartley. I found this to be significant.
  • Tracing the genealogy of Ann was difficult as she was born out of wedlock. Her mother was Ann Joanna Hartley and I could not find more information on her.

Hartley ThruLines

By Hartley ThruLines, I mean that I want to look at ThruLines on my Hartley side. I notice this interesting one:

My ThruLine with Paul is worth taking a look at. If this is right, it would help cement my connection to James Hartley born 1763.

A Tree for Paul

The way I check these is to create my own private tree for my match. Paul has posted a pretty good tree at Ancestry leading back to Ann Hartley:

This Ann Hartley was married to a Hartley Blackburn. However, he has this Ann being from Yorkshire:

Here is a conversation I had with Paul:

This appears to be Paul’s paternal grandmother:

Confusingly, Irene is transcribed at Ancestry as June in the 1911 Census:

The 1881 Census for Nelson is interesting:

It shows that William and Hartley Pilling were Ann Blackburn’s children, born in Colne and Winewall and that Maggie Blackburn was born in Nelson. This suggests to me that Ann Blackburn may have married a Pilling in Colne. Here are two marriages of an Ann Hartley to a Pilling:

Ann would be too young for the first marriage, but there was a Blackburn witness in that marriage.

Here is a entry for Ann Hartley from a tree I found at Ancestry:

This makes sense to me. The same tree has Hartley Blackburn from Trawden:

I also found that a possibility for Ann Hartley was this 1841 Census for Trawden, Lancashire:

In the 1881 Census, Ann was said to be from Marton, Yorkshire. All of this family at least shows as being from Lancashire. Another issue is that I can’t figure out where Marton is.

Another question: if Ann Hartley married as here:

then why would her father be Samuel Bell? Time to look at another Hartley ThruLine and perhaps come back to this later.

Joyce and Ainsworth

Joyce is my father’s 1st cousin:

Here is another connection through a William Hartley. Ruth should not be on this list as she descends from Mary Pilling. Mary had an illegitimate child before she married Robert. Ruth is desended from that child.

Looking at the Ainsworth Tree

The Ainsworth Tree is private, but the ThruLines has a suggested path based on other trees. One tree I found has a photo for John Hartley Ainsworth:

Three Ancestry Trees have John as the father of Olwyn:

Here is the 1911 Census showing a young John Hartley Ainsworth and his family – all born in Nelson:

James and Martha were married in 1901. They apparently lived with the wife’s family that year:

Next, I am trying to verify Martha’s mother:

Ancestry is suggesting Jane Hartley. The 1891 Census for Nelson has Jane being born in Trawden:

I found three trees for Jane Hartley at Ancestry and they all have Mary Hartley as her mother and they do not show a father:

That seems to be consistant with the original ThruLines which shows Jane’s mother as Mary Ann Hartley. This seems to be a good candidate for Jane in the 1851 Census:

Here we have a William Hartley, a Mary Hartley unmarried and a Jane Hartley granddaughter. So far, this is going more smoothly than the previous tree. This family which was all associated with Trawden moved within 8 months to Little Marsden (the time of the birth of Jane Hartley).  My question would be: why is Jane the daughter the Mary. She could have been the daughter of Betty or Alice. Here is the 1861 Census:

There is now a Sarah Hartley listed as daughter, but probably not from 64 year old Jane Hartley. Mary Ann is out of the house – either married or died or otherwise just moved out. It would make sense for the mother of the children to stay and take care of them. Regardless, William and Jane Hartley appear to be the grandparents of Jane and Sarah.

The truth comes out in 1871:

Here we have three generations of Hartleys: William, Alice and then Jane and Sarah. And they are living next door to the Widdup family!

The Census really helped out and is still informative in 1881:

I already had this before, but now I see that Sarah is a sister to Jane and not an Aunt. With what I see so far, I would choose Alice as the mother to Jane and Sarah, but there may be other information out there which would have Mary as the mother. However, to get back to William Hartley, I need to enter one Hartley sister and will enter Mary for now.

Mary Hartley and Her Sisters

We know that Mary Hartley was 23 in 1851. That would put her birth at around 1828 in Trawden. Going from the known to the unknown:

It is clear that this is the family in 1851 in Little Marsden which is just to the West of Trawden. This family had William and Jane as parents. Their children were Mary, Betty, Alice, Jonathan? and granddaughter Jane. Let’s compare the 1841 Census in Trawden where they were all born:

The family goes on to the next page:

This is clearly the same family, so that is good news. Unfortunately, the 1841 Census does not give family relations, but they are usually implied. Ancestry suggests William Hartley and Sarah Pickles as the parents which seems like a good choice to me:

If I decide that Pickles is not the right name later, I can change it.

Who Were the Parents of This William Hartley?

When I look at 3 Ancestry Trees, two have his parents as John and Mary Hartley and one Tree has his parents as James Hartley and Betty Baldwin. However, the one tree is a person I know and may have been influenced by my research? My old Hartley Web Site has this information:

My best guess for the parents of my ancestor Robert Hartley were James Hartley and Betty Baldwin. I also had that couple with a son William born in 1805 which would fit this William. If that is the case, then the DNA match would be my first DNA evidence that My ancestors were indeed James Hartley and Betty Baldwin.

I do note that there was a William Hartley who married a Jane Pickles in 1825:

However, this William was a widower. If William was born in 1805, that would make him a very young widower of 19. Possible but not likely. The other 2 trees had this William:

He would also have been a young widower at 20. We get William’s birth date from his Census records.

  • In 1841, he is listed as 35. However, note:

Please note, when searching the 1841 census, ages up to 15 are listed exactly as reported/recorded but ages over 15 were rounded to the nearest 5 years (i.e. a person aged 53 would be listed on the census as age 50 years).

  • In 1851, William was listed as 46, which is why we think he may have been born in 1804  or 1805.
  • In 1861 William was listed as 57, so he would be born in 1804 or possibly 1803
  • In 1871, William was listed as 58, so it is difficult to nail down a birth year. Now it could be 1803 or 1802.
  • In 1881, he is listed as 76 which puts his birth back to 1804 or 1805.

According to the Death Registration Index, there was a William who died in the Burnley area in 1885 at the age of 80:

This further suggests that William was born in 1804 or 1805. Assuming that this information is correct, I would lean toward William being born in 1804 as this record is for early 1885. Based on this analysis and assuming that William was baptized in Colne, I come up with these candidates:

I don’t know where Newlaith is, but there is a Little Laith listed in Trawden in 1841 Census.

This Wililam appears to be a good choice based on both date of birth and location.

This William who I thought previously could be the brother of my ancestor seems to be born a little too late.

Jane Pickles

Next, I would like to know if the Jane who married William was Jane Pickles. The fact that there was a 20 year old Sarah Pickles living with the William Hartley family seems to add to the evidence that Jane could be Jane Pickles.

Jane Pickles is mentionted in the Non-Conformist records. It appears that there was a Weslyan revival going on in Trawden at some point and many were baptized, including my third great-grandmother Mary Pilling Hartley. Here are the first three entries:

Here are the next two:

Here is a map of where my ancestors lived in 1837 according to the same Weslyan records:

I assume that Trawden means the village of Trawden and Slack Booth was outside the village to the South.

From the Weslyan records, we know that Jane’s father was Henry Pickles and her mother was Mary:

There are two choices for this couple’s marriage:

Molly was a nickname for Mary.

I am leaning toward Mary as the right spouse as opposed to Molly. Here is a birth to Molly:

I have not heard of Whilly End which would not rule her out. Also her maiden name is Pilling, so the DNA match could be on that side if this was the correct ancestor.

More on Wililam Hartley and His Possible Parents

I had as my best guess that William’s parents were John and Mary Hartley. One place to look is the 1841 Census:

I see that there was a John and Mary living next to the James Hartley Family. And the James Hartley Family is listed after the William Hartley Family. Now assuming that this John was the father of William and perhaps James, he would have been born in about 1776. Remember ages over 15 were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. So John could have been born as early as about 1771 – assuming that he was the father.

Next Steps

I’ll keep looking at ThruLines and comparing them. The ThruLines as partially based on the information we put in the trees, so it may be necessary to try other potential ancestors. The goal would be to find a common ancestor with one of the DNA matches that does not have a clear connection on another line such as Pilling which is also a Trawden ancestor.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I first looked at Paul’s Tree. He is a DNA match with me. I got confused going back into the genealogy and had a lot of questions, so I went on to the next ThruLine
  • The next ThruLine was between my father’s 1st cousin Joyce and Ainsworth. The Ainsworth Tree was more straightforward and I got back to a Hartley Family in Trawden, not too far from where my Hartleys were from. This genealogy also bogged down around and before the year 1800. That seems to be a sticky area.
  • The goal is to find common ancestors between a DNA match. The genealogies of the DNA matches, if on the Harltey side, should inform me of the direction to go in my own genealogy.





My Family’s Parker ThruLines at Ancestry

I recently wrote a Blog on my Hatch ThruLines. I thought that I would write another on my family’s Parker ThruLines.

My 4th great-grandfather Isaac Parker married Prudence Hatch, so I am following a theme.

My Parker ThruLines

I show three matches to descendants of William Henry Parker. Our common ancestors would be Isaac Parker and Prudence Hatch. For some reason, I match td by DNA more closely than James or Barbar.

Joel and td

I’ll start with td. His tree is pretty good:

I notice he has the Davis family also. However, td has this family being from Ireland, so apparently not the same Davis family that my ancestor William Parker married. It should be easy to trace td’s ancestry.

I’ll make my own tree. Here is the Parker family in Boston in 1930:

For some reason, the father was not with the family in 1930. The birth record for William Jr. shows that his father was a leather salesman. The marriage record for William Sr., shows that his father was another William H. Parker:

In 1900 this family was living in Boston:

Ancestry suggests that the next generation had a Robert Dean Parker. However, td’s tree shows a Pardon C. Parker which sounds like a better choice to me. td has Pardon in Boston as a barber in 1870:

I do recall seeing this record in the past. This 1865 Charlestown birth record clears things up:

This shows that Ancestry hints are not always right. This gets us back to Nantucket (the birthplace of Pardon). It looks like I duplicated a little effort, as my Hartley tree already had down to this William Henry:

The connection has been made, so I can start my Parker DNA/Genealogy Chart.

Parker DNA/Genealogy Chart

It seems like my ThruLines are changing as I am writing this Blog:

Here are the other three matches:

Notice that there is a William Henry Parker boron 1886 and a William H Parker born 1889. I think I see what happened, but will need to check.

Joel and James

Here is what James has for his tree:

Remember the Robert Dean Parker hint that I didn’t take above? He shows up in James tree. Let’s see if that is right. It is also interesting that William Henry Parker Jr. marries a Grace M Parker. James has the family in Wareham in 1930:

William H is doing odd jobs as a laborer. This is what James has for the 1920 Census:

It appears that 7 children were born between 1920 and 1930. Also William and Grace appear to have had a son in the 1920 Census named Paul that I do not see in the 1930 Census. From these two sources, William H. Parker should have been born between about 1887 and 1889.

This appears to be William’s birth record in 1886 in Wareham:

His father shows as being born in Fairhaven and his mother (Elizabeth V Bumpus) in Wareham. All this seems to be steering me away from the ThruLines on this side.

Joyce’s Parker ThruLines

Joyce is my father’s 1st cousin:

Joyce shows the two William H Parkers. I already have Lindsay in my yellow Parker Chart. Next I’ll look at Linda. The family tree that Linda posted on Ancestry goes back to the Bumpus Line that I looked at above:

Here is some information on William Betts:

The 1905 Brockton marriage record for Clifford and Annie shows that Annies mother was a Bumpus:

When I check other family ThruLines, they seem to be a combination of the ThruLines from my yellow chart above and other Parker families.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I set out to look at my familiy’s Parker ThruLines
  • Only one family went back to common ancestors of Isaac Parker and Prudence Hatch
  • That family was td, his daughter Lindsay and his sister Barbara
  • There is confusion in the Parker family genealogy as it is a fairly common name and there are two families with the name of William Henry Parker in Massachusetts.



My Family’s Connections with the Colonial Hatch Family

I remember Lincoln in High School. I think he was a year ahead of me and grew up in the same small town that I did. He is not a match to me, but he matches my sister Heidi and my brother Jon:

The proposed common ancestor between Lincoln and Heidi goes back to colonial Massachusetts. It would be interesting to see if this connection makes sense.

Hatch ThruLines

I see that I have one connection going back to Nathaniel:

These matches are interesting and at the far end of where Ancestry does common ancestors – at the 6th cousin level.

I have tested my father’s 1st cousin Joyce and she has one Hatch connection:

It looks like Nathaniel could have had a large family. Here is his marriage record:

It looks like this couple had eight children:

So far we have seen Druzilla, Isaiah and Prudence in potential DNA match lines. One interesting thing is that there appear to be a Nathaniel and a Nathaneal baptized in Falmouth, MA in the 1740’s. Was the 1742 Nathaniel illegitimate?

Also, is Bethia the same of Bashaway in the Falmouth marriage records?

Another of my father’s cousins has tested at Ancestry. He matches Priscilla on the Nathaniel Hatch Line:

Here Isaiah Hatch is in green because MM is from my second cousin Holly and she must not have Isaiah in her tree.

My sister Heidi shows a match to Bridget who descends from Rebecca Hatch:

My brother Jon, mentioned earlier has three DNA matches with Hatch descendants:

The evidence of DNA matches is rising.

My sister Lori matches Susan like I do:

However, Lori matches her a bit less than I do: 7 cM vs. my 12 cM match.

Finally my sister Sharon:

Sharon, like Jon and Heidi, matches Bridget.

Are All These Connections as Shown?

Genetic experts tend to point out that it is often difficult to prove that from 7 generations out, the actual DNA from Nathaniel Hatch (or his wife Olive Bearse) is the DNA that you match with. In order to show this, you would need to build out your tree and the match’s tree for 7 generations and eliminate all other possibilities. However, I am not going to do that. I will just look at the matches to see if the genealogy supports their descent from Nathaniel and Olive. Then my goal is to build my own composite tree with descendants.

Lincoln’s Genealogy

This is what Lincoln has:

I am thinking that the Lincoln that I knew could have been in the second private. But that is OK. If that is the case, then I wouldn’t be related to the Lincoln I knew but from the mother of his son. OK. Note that this tree does not show the mother of the son. Somehow, Ancestry was able to figure that out. However, the son’s mother was born in 1924, so maybe the son was the one I knew. I’ll build my own tree to try to figure it out.

I think I see the issue already. For some reason, the tree that Lincoln’s mother is taken from shows this:

Pehaps Lincoln entered his tree incorrectly. I found an obituary record that shows Lincoln as the daughter of Helena, so this appears to be correct. All this to say that I should be realted to the Lincoln I knew through his mother. I have put a message in to Lincoln to make sure.

Here is Helena in 1930 in Dartmouth, MA:

I see that her brother was quite a bit older.

Here is Carrie’s marriage record:

I am quickly building out the Lincoln’s tree:

According to the initial tree for Lincoln, Helen Gardner should be Helena Sawyer. We see this to be the case from Carrie’s marriage record:

It looks like we are abut halfway there:

Here is Helena or Helen in 1860 in New Bedford:

Next, we are looking for Stephen Sawyer’s mother.

According to findagrave.com:

They have Stephen’s mother as Olive Hatch Potter. Seeing the Hatch in her name makes me think we are on the right track. Olive dies in Medford, MA in 1898:

The same record gives the parents of Olive:

Olive’s father was from Westport and her mother, Druzilla Hatch, was from Falmouth.

The final step is to get Druzilla or Drusilla back to Nathaniel Hatch, Jr. It turns out that I already have Druzilla in my Hartley Tree:

For some reason, Drusilla went by Dilley in the New Bedford Marriage records:

In the 1850 Census for New Bedford, we see that Drucilla was a ship captain’s wife:

Starting My Hatch DNA/Genealogy Tree

I believe that I have proven the genealogical connection. There is also a DNA connection, but I have not proved that the DNA match is definitetively from the Hatch/Bearse Line. While my line came to Rochester in the 1800’s, Lincoln’s came to the same Town in the 1900’s. I hope to further expand this tree.

My Match Susan

According to Ancestry, I should look at Susan’s maternal side. Here is the tree Susan has:

The tree matches what Ancestry has up to Susan’s grandmother Anna M Dowd:

The Findagrave site is helpful again with Anna Dowd:

Susan’s maternal grandmother was buried in Wareham which is the next Town from where I live. This is my tree for Susan so far:

Ancestry thinks that Lillies is a Hillman, so I need to confirm this. Someone at Ancestry made this easy with an obituary from the Wareham Courier:

Next I am looking for Robert Hillman’s mother who is supposed to be a Hatch. From Robert’s marriage record, I see that his mother was Tabitha. This transcription identifies Tabitha’s last name:

Tabitha’s death record gives her parents as Isaiah and Lucy:

Here is a portion of my tree for Susan:

I already have Isaiah in my Hartley Tree.

Widening My Hatch DNA/Genealogy Chart

Heidi and Bridget

I’ll stay on my sibling Hatch DNA matches for now.

Here is the line I am trying to look into. Interestingly, I also have some Parkers in my ancestry, so that is something to consider.

Here is the Barstow family in 1950 living in Falmouth, MA:

By the Ancestry Tree above, I am thinking that Miriam’s last name was Allen. According to Social Security, that is right:

In 1920, The Allen family was living on Summer Street in New Bedford:

The father, Arthur, was a bank teller:

The couple married in 1912 in New Bedford:

Here is my tree:

This suggests that Rebecca Hatch married Sylvanus Parker. This is interesting because my ancestor Prudence who was Rebecca’s sister married Isaac Parker.

Here is the 1850 Census for Falmouth:

John was a ship carpenter.

Who Were the Parents of John H Parker?

According to the NEGHR Vol. 114:

From this, it appears that this Rebecca was different from the one in my tree. That also means that I need to correct my tree:

The implications:

  • There appears to have been two Rebecca Hatch’s living around this time
  • It is possible that the reference to John Hatch Parker’s mother being the daughter of Isaiah and Lucy Hatch could be wrong, but it seems to be the best information to go on at this time.
  • Until I find more information, I will not add Bridget as being descended from Nathaniel Hatch, Jr.
  • The DNA my family shares could still be from the Parker or Hatch side, or some other colonial Massachusetts Line.

Joyce and KC

I have already done one Drusilla Line:


Here is KC’s tree:

I’m guessing that this tree should end with Drusilla Hatch. I’ll just double check KC’s tree to make sure it makes sense. Here is what I have so far:

Arthur was born in New Bedford, MA and died in Los Angeles. However, I need to next find out who has mother Clara was.

Findagrave strongly suggests that she was a Sawyer:

Interestingly, her father was Stephen Potter Sawyer. So that matches up with my previous yellow Hatch DNA/Genealogy Chart. I need go no further. Here is the new Chart:

This is good as we like to see branching other than just at the top level. I need to also add in Joyce:

Here we see that Joyce and KC are 5th cousins. But Ancestry has them as 5th cousins once removed. That means I missed someone in KC’s Line:

It takes a while to get things right, but double-checking helps. This is a long while for autosomal DNA to survive, but apparently there were a lot of Hatch descendants, so the odds were in their favor.

Maury and Priscilla

According to AncestryDNA, Maury and Priscilla should be 5th cousins:

I don’t have anyone on the Isaiah Branch yet, so let’s build another tr. Mee for Priscilla. Mabel’s paternal side tree is here:

Mabel’s tree stops at her great-grandmother Mabel Hatch. Here is the Albert Jordan Family in Somerville in 1920:

Albert was a barrel dealer.

Here is an 1894 marriage record for Albert:

This record is thorough enough to give his mother’s maiden name as Mabel P Hatch. Mabel’s wedding record from Sandwich gives the first names of her parents:

So many Hatches!

The 1850 Census for Sandwich shows that Isaiah was from Ireland:

The 1860 Census appears to correct the previous one:

The ditto marks refer to Massachusetts. The Somerville death record for Isaiah gives his father’s name as Isaiah – so he was apparently not the son of Nathaniel:

Jon and Gramps

If Ancestry has this right, gramps is Lincoln’s 1st  cousin once removed. I may not need to make a tree for gramps. The only confustion is that I show a Henry Gardner where gramps shows a Hervey. Here is Hervey’s WWII Draft Card:

Here is my new Hatch Chart:

I corrected Hervery’s sister Carrie as I had her as a Sawyer instead of a Gardner.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Looking at the ThruLines has advanced my knowledge of some of the Hatch family descendants in the range of 6th cousins to my family
  • I looked at the genealogies of 6 descendants of Nathaniel Hatch Jr. who was born in 1747 according to some Ancestry trees.
  • I found that four of those lines from Ancestry’s ThruLines were accurate
  • I made a DNA/genealogical Chart for the Hatch Family. These are lines that I have looked at and they either match my siblings or my father’s first cousins.

My Family’s Really Old Nicholson ThruLines

I recently noticed that my brother Jon had a new ThruLine with an old Nicholson Ancestor:

This shows that Jon may be 6th cousin to KW and new match Derek. This is interesting as it goes one generation beyond my current Nicholson DNA/Genealogy Chart:

One question would be whether Hephzibah was the sister of my ancestor John Nicholson born in 1766:

I do have that John’s father John married a Hephzibah.

Hephzibah Nicholson Born About 1761

The main source cited by the ThruLines is a Habershon Tree at Ancestry:

Of special interest to me are the sources. Here is one:

This record says that there was a Hephzibah Nicholson who married a Thomas Habbershon in 1782.

Here is the tree from KW who matches some in my family:

KW also shows Hephzibah Nicholson in his tree. Even though I find no further record other than the transcription of the marriage between Hephzibah Nicholson and Thomas Habbershon, I am tempted to think that the Ancestry connection is correct.

Here is a non-conformist record for a birth:

This is from Attercliffe Zion Chapel for the birth of a Mercy Habershon daughter of Thomas Habershon, butcher and Hephzibah his wife. Here is Attercliffe at the top right of a current map:

I also have this on my Nicholson Web Page:

This has Samuel Wadsworth born in Attercliff in 1756. It looks like there was room for a Hephzibah to be born in 1761 or so. I mention a book also in my web page called Reminiscences of Old Sheffield, 1875. Here is an excerpt on John Nicholson of Darnell:

This John of Darnall married a Wadsworth so would have been arguably the father of Hephzibah. She married a butcher in Attercliffe. Although the reminiscence is sketchy above, it appears that this couple must be Thomas Habbershon and Hephzibah Nicholson.

Expanding My Nicholson DNA/Genealogy Chart

It seems clear to me that Hephzibah Nicholson – named for her mother Hepphzibah Wadsworth was the daughter of John Nicholson of Darnall. Here is Darnall to the South of Attercliffe:

We see in the same 1875 account that John of Darnall moved to Sheffield:

Here is Broad Street in Sheffield today:

Here is the start of my updated Chart:

It now consists of two lines down from John of Darnall. Hephzibah had Joseph according to the ThruLines, but the records for him are sketchy.

Joseph Habershon

There are at least three trees showing Joseph as the son of Thomas Habershon and Hephzibah Nicholson. Here is the main record shown for Joseph:

Here Joseph is a butcher which makes sense as Thomas Habershon was. However, the parents are not mentioned. Here is the 1825 Directory of Sheffield:

This appears to be the same Joseph – a butcher. My feeling is that the tree of DNA match KW is correct:

Derek’s Tree

The other Nicholson match is Derek. His tree only goes back as far as Maria Habershon:

Let’s do a quick tree for Derek. Here is Derek’s grandfather’s marriage record:

Kellington looks closer to Leeds than to Sheffield:

Here is the family in 1861 where we see that the mother Maria was from Sheffield:

This gets us to the level of Derek’s tree:

Here is a clue from Ancestry:

This appears to be Maria in the 1841 Census;

Cudworth is between Sheffield and Leeds:

The 1871 Census shows that Maria was born in Attercliffe:

Maria named her son Joseph Habershon Papworth:

That is a good enough link to the Habershon family foro me.

Here is the connection:

I had previously thought that Nigel had a wildly old connection to our family. KW and Derek have an even older connection. They are 5th cousins once removed to my mother.

Summary and Conclusions

  • When I saw that my brother Jon had a match and ThruLines with new match Derek, I thought that would make for an easy Blog
  • The Blog was not so easy as the connection was so old – to the 1700’s
  • By adding these two new DNA matches, I can see that Hephzibah Nicholson was a real person – liikely named for her mother Hephzibah Wadsworth.
  • The genealogy and DNA match was corroborated by an 1875 publication called Reminiscences of Old Sheffield. This publication had a section on the Nicholsons. This reminiscence recalled the beautiful daughters of John Nicholson of Darnell. One of them married a person who became a butcher. This was most likely Thomas Habershon who married Hephzibah Nicholson
  • It is great to see that the DNA supports the genealogy which is in turn supported by an 1875 “Reminscence”.


A New Frazer BigY Test Completed

I am descended from Frazers from North Roscommon County, Ireland on my paternal grandmother’s side. I have tested a Frazer cousin to get Frazer YDNA results. Similarly, Mansoor has used his maternal Uncle by last name of Barker to take a BigY test to get his Frazer results. Mansoor’s goal is to find the identity of his grandfather Thomas’ true father. Autosomal testing of Mr. Barker already showed that he was related to a branch of the Frazers even though his last name is not Frazer.

Barker’s BigY Results

These results were not what I had expected, but they are very interesting. I had thought that Barker’s result (shown as ‘your branch’) would help to identify clarify Dingman’s results. However, what Barker’s results have done so far is split the James Frazer Branch where Rodney and Jonathan are.

The Archibald and James Frazer Lines

Genealogical evidence shows that there were two male head of household Frazers named Archibald and James living in North Roscommon in 1749.

Their father believed to be another Archibald Frazer has died by this time as indicated by the enumeration of Mary Frazer, ‘widdow’. From this all Frazer genealogy starts with two Frazer Lines: Archibald and James. Here is an image I have from a previous Blog. These are the lines of those who had previously taken the BigY test including their YDNA Branch names:

Previoiusly Rodney and Jonathan were in the Y151390 Branch which was the only known branch of the James Line at the time. Barker’s BigY results have pushed Rodney and Jonathan down a level on the YDNA tree to FT421607 as seen on the Block tree above and in the next image.

A New Genealogy/YDNA Tree

Here is my revised tree:




  • All 6 testers come under FT421618.
  • It appears that all testers genealogically come under Archibald Frazer born about 1690. Therefore, it must follow that this Archibald Frazer was FT421618 and passed that down to all his Irish Frazer descendants.
  • Dingman is also FT421618 with no further distinction. This chart had that he descends from John Frazer born 1775. I had previously wondered if he possibly had descended from John’s brother Richard or from the James Line. However Barker’s new testing makes it seem more likely from purely YDNA testing that Dingman is on the Archibald Line
  • I have the new Y151390 between James born 1720 and Archibald born 1751. There is no way right now to know who was the first to have this SNP. It may also be Archibald Frazer born 1792.
  • If Dingman was from the James Line, then James could not be the one to first have Y151390, but it seems for now that Dingman is in the right Frazer Line.
  • We know that Rodney and Jonathan both have FT421607. Therefore, Thomas Henry Frazer must have that SNP. However, we do not know if he was the first in that Line to have that SNP.
  •  We don’t know the genealogy for Barker. However, we know that he did not descend from Thomas Henry Frazer. That means that Barker descended from either Archibald Frazer born 1792, Archibald Frazer born 1751 or James Frazer born 1720.

Some More BigY Detail

In order for Barker to have split the previous SNP Block, he must be positive for Y151390 and negative for FT421607. In some ways, the negative results are more important:

This is Barker’s test results showing that for every read that the location of FT421607 there was no mutation. That means that Barker is negative for FT421607.

This shows the results for the new SNP that Barker is in:

A mutation from C to T puts Barker as Y151390.

As a new branch has formed, FTDNA will likely perform a manual review.

Also, Y151390  and FT421607 will be split out and placed in FTDNA’s Time Tree which should give a date for these two SNPs. The Time Tree currently does not have FT421607:


Summary and Conclusions

  • The new Barker test shows that his genealogy is in the James Line
  • The new BigY test split the old James Line branch into two
  • The test shows that Barker must descend from James Frazer born 1720 or his son Archibald born 1751 or the next Archibald born 1792
  • The new test seems to support that Dingman is from the Archibald line
  • FTDNA should do a manual review on this test
  • FTDNA will also update their Time tree to include the new FT421607


Placing AncestryDNA Matches the Michael Frazer Tree with ThruLines

This Blog is a more concise summary of the Blog I wrote here. Ancestry does a good job of trying to connect DNA matches and genealogies using a computer program called ThruLines. This is the right thing to do. However, Ancestry produces its ThruLines with published genealogies which can sometimes be off track or confusing.

Years ago, I saw that some in my family had a fairly large DNA match with a person named BV at Ancestry. Looking into BV’s genealogy, I saw that I matched her on her McMaster side. Here are my brother Jon’s ThruLines:

I found out that my ancestor Margaret Frazer married William McMaster and then moved with her family to Ontario. My 3rd great-grandmother Fanny married in Ireland and stayed behind. It was clear from the DNA that our match to BV was on the James Line of Frazers. That Line had mostly descendants from James Frazer’s sons Archibald Frazer and Michael Frazer. There was also a Patrick Frazer, but I am not aware of DNA matches that I have from this line. From DNA matches to others and from genealogy clues, I reasoned that Margaret was likely the daughter of Michael Frazer and Margaret Stuart.


Ancestry has since added others to the Michael Frazer Tree using ThruLines:

My brother Jon’s ThruLines shows a match to BK on the Michael Frazer Line. I looked into BK’s genealogy and it checked out. It turns out that the Archibald above also moved to Ontario from Ireland. From there, we can track down his descent to BK. Unfornutately, the J.F. in the ThruLines is not correct. He descends from a different Archibald Frazer. But, his Archibald stayed in Ireland. Here is the tree of researcher Joanna (brother of J.F.):

Her ancestors beginning with Edward F Frazer were from Ireland and then later generations moved to England. The ThruLines mix up Archibald Frazer born in 1792 and Archibald Frazer born 1801. So how did Ancestry get this wrong?

More on J.F.

J.F. is placed incorrectly at this time at least on one of my siblings’ ThruLines. I have access to J.F’s sister Joanna’s ThruLines:

Here, of course, Joanna is placed correctly. I am sure that if I had access to J.F.’s ThruLines, he would also show that he is descended from Archibald Frazer born 1792 and not the one born 1801. That means that J.F. is placed incorrectly in one ThruLine and correctly in another. In Ancestry’s defense, there has been a lot of confusion in the various trees and the genealogy does get a bit confusing with many Archibalds Frazer.

A Complicating Factor

Interestingly, here is Joanna’s ThruLines going back to James the father of Michael and Archibald:

James had a daughter named Elizabeth. She marries a Knott and they have a daughter Catherine. Catherine marries Archibald Frazer born 1801 and BK also descends from this ancestry. That makes BK a 5th cousin once removed to Joanna and J.F.

ThruLines for Monica

My sister Heidi shows more ThruLines on the Michael Frazer Line:

ThruLines has Monica under Michael, son of Michael.

Monica’s nephew Kyle is also shown under this branch. When I checked out Monica’s ancestry, I found this (from a previouis ThruLine):

I got Monica back to a Michael Frazer, but he was born in 1810. Before that, I lost track of the genealogy. Assuming the dates are correct, Michael born in 1810 could not be the son of Archibald born in 1801. That means that since I wrote the previous Blog, there appears to be a correction in the ThruLines that reflects the information that I found. Here is a case where, to me, it seems that the same name for the son plus a DNA connection seems to make up for lack of a birth record for Michael Frazer born around 1810.

More on Michael Frazer Born 1810

I find it interesting that Ancestry came up with a logical conclusion that I also came up with. I wonder if there are trees which suggest that Michael born in 1810 was the son of Michael born in 1764. When I go back to my sister Heidi’s ThruLines and click on Michael Frazer born 1810, I get this note:

Here we see that Joanna has added Michael to her tree:

Here is what the other Tree at Ancestry shows:

So based on these two trees, Ancestry changed the ThruLines.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Years ago, I discovered a DNA match with a McMaster/Frazer common ancestor. The Frazer was Margaret Stuart Frazer and I placed her by best fit as the daughter of Michael Frazer (who married a Stuart) and who was born about 1764.
  • Since then, there have been more ThruLines for this same Michael Frazer
  • Recently two matches came up: BK and Monica
  • BK is descended from Archibald Frazer (born 1801) who is believed to be the son of Michael Frazer born 1764
  • Monica is descended from a Michael Frazer born 1810. This Michael is likely a later son born to Michael Frazer of 1764
  • I also looked at J.F. who was incorrectly placed in one of my sibling’s ThruLines as descending from Michael of 1764. J.F. and Joanna correctly descend from a different Archibald born 1792 and son of another Archibald (brother of Michael born 1764).
  • Further as my brother Jon matches J.F, the correct ThruLines for for Jon and J.F. would go back to James Frazer who was born about 1720. This is based on genealogy that we are aware of. There may be other connections that we are not aware of.
  • The moral is that ThruLines change and can be incorrect at times, so they have to be studied and interpreted correctly. It is easier to tell the the wrong ThruLines than to prove that one is right. However, proving one is wrong can lead to the likelihood that the ancestor is in a different Line.