A New Frazer Tests for YDNA

It is big news when a Frazer tests for YDNA. YDNA is what is passed down from father to son only. So it is the perfect test for a family surname study like we have for Frazer of Roscommon, Ireland. The other reason that it is big news is that there are not that many male Frazers around to do the testing. We previously had 2 tested for YDNA. Now with Rick’s new test, we have three.

Frazer YDNA and Genealogy

I (and others) have pieced together a Frazer genealogy. It is not perfect, perhaps. That is why DNA testing is needed to affirm the work that has been done. Autosomal DNA is good, but the effectiveness tapers off as we go back more generations. Also autosomal DNA is not specific to a surname, so it could apply to any of hundreds of ancestors the further we go back in time. YDNA on the the other hand, is specific to one male line – in this case Frazer. There are two types of YDNA. One is STRs which Rick tested for. These are good, but there are some problems in interpreting them as I will explain later in the Blog. SNPs are the most exact YDNA test. The other two Frazers, Paul and Jonathan have tested for SNPs through the BigY Test.

Rick descends from George Frazer from Martinsburg, NY. George Frazer moved his family to Canada and left many descendants. I have more on that family here. [Edit: Rick’s cousin Pat replies, “It was Richard Patterson Frazer that brought his family to Canada from Martinsburg.   George was born there but came to Canada with his family as a child.”] Many years ago, I convinced Bill, one of those descendants,  that he and I were related based on genealogy. Even though I wasn’t 100% sure myself, I argued my point with Bill and he finally agreed that we were related. Later, I convinced Bill to take an autosomal DNA test which did show that he was related to my family and many other Roscommon, Ireland Frazer Families. Since then, others have tested and confirmed the relationships. Now we have Rick who has tested his YDNA proving a more certain link on the male Frazer line. So this has been a several year journey starting with traditional genealogy, followed up with autosomal DNA and YDNA testing. Here is the tree of the three male Frazers who have tested for YDNA:

This genealogy is the best that we could do with what we have. There are some uncertainties about it. We have other’s research with names but no references. We have the Elphin Census of 1747 and this includes a widow Mary Frazer. She is presumed to be the widow of Archibald Frazer born around 1690. There are two other Frazers in that Census who represent the Archibald and James Lines. Further, I have supposed that James Frazer b. about 1804 is my ancestor. However, this requires the marriage of two first cousins. This was not that unusual apparently back in the day. Those belonging to the Church of Ireland wanted to marry other Church or Ireland people. In fact, there were laws in place requiring that. However, those from the Church of Ireland were in the minority.

According to the chart above:

  • All the testers have the top Archibald as a common ancestor. Rick and Paul also have James Frazer b. about 1804 as their common ancestor.
  • Rick is 9 generations from Archibald b. about 1690. Paul is 8 generations away and Jonathan is 7 generations away from the first Archibald.
  • Paul and Rick are third cousins once removed
  • Jonathan is a 6th cousin once removed from Paul and 6th cousin twice removed from Rick.
  • Assuming that Rick, Paul and Jonathan were born around 1950, there would be about 260 years from the first Archibald to our three YDNA testers.

Rick’s New YDNA STR Results

Based on the above tree, we would expect that Rick would be more closely related to Paul than Jonathan. That is the case. Ricks closest match is to Paul with a Genetic Difference (GD) of 2. His GD to Jonathan is 3. The GD is the difference in STR mutations between two people. Here are all of Rick’s matches by STRs. He has more matches than Paul or Jonathan:

Here is how Rick’s STR matches compare with Paul’s and Jonathan’s. The numbers are GDs. So a larger GD is a more distant YDNA match. A blank means more than 7:

  • I put the matches together that matched all three Frazers.
  • The light blue highlighted names have taken the BigY Test
  • The SNP Tree below based on BigY SNPs shows that Grant is a closer match to Frazer than Hayes. This seems clear from the STR matches above also
  • The chart points out all the Grant matches. Half of the 10 Frazer STR matches are with Grants.
  • Rick is the only Frazer matching Hayes. This backs up the SNP tree below.

These are the same names that I have been tracking by SNPs. So that is good that the SNPs and the STRs agree with each other. Here is the new SNP tree that was developed by the R1a L664 Administrator Martin:

  • Patton is the most distantly related to Frazer and doesn’t show on any Frazer’s STR match list.
  • Grant shows as the closest match, then Hayes.
  • Chisum doesn’t show on the SNP map as Chisum has not taken the BigY Test.
  • Stuart doesn’t show yet, but he is in the the process of taking the BigY Test, so he will eventually show on the SNP Tree.
  • If Rick had taken the BigY test, he would have formed a branch under the Archibald line on the lower right of the tree. Rick and Paul would likely share some of the SNPs now shown as private SNPs for Paul and both Paul and Rick would then have their own new private SNPs.
  • Rick must share all the SNPs in the yellow box above the ca 1600 A.D date. These are the five brand new SNPs YP6489 through YP6493 that are right now Frazer only SNPs.

A Simple New Frazer STR Tree

A STR Tree for the Frazer should follow the genealogical tree and the SNP tree. Here are the STRs and where Jonathan, Paul and Rick differ:

Normally, the mode would be taken as the oldest STR. However, in the case of DYS391 I believe that based on comparison with other STR tests for Grant, Chisum, Whittaker and Stewart, that the 10 value of DYS391 is the older value. Likewise for CDY which changes more quickly than other STRs, I took 35-38 to be the older value. Prior to Rick’s results, I had this tree for Jonathan and Paul:

In this simple tree, Paul had all the STR changes since the 1690 Frazer ancestor and Jonathan had none. However, there is some guesswork in drawing this out. One rule is to make the chart as simple as possible, which is what I did. This means having the least amount of changes. It is sometimes called the rule of parsimony. Ambiguities in STRs is why some people prefer the SNP trees as there is little or no ambiguity in SNPs. Now note the above chart. Paul and Rick share 391 = 11 and CDYa = 35-40. Here is the new Frazer STR Tree with Rick included:

This shows:

  • Paul has his own STR mutation of 576 = 19 which happened sometime after 1804.
  • Likewise, Rick has his own STR mutation of 444 = 13 which defines Rick’s relatively recent branch.
  • The GD of 2 noted above between Paul and Rick are for markers 576 and 444.
  • The GD of 3 between Paul and Jonathan are for markers 576, 391 and CDYa.
  • The GD of 3 between Rick and Jonathan are for markers 444, 391 and CDYa.
  • The STR tree gets more difficult to draw further back from the present time. This is because more variables come into play such as parallel mutations and back mutations.
  • It would be possible to draw a STR Tree for the Grant, Hayes, Stewart, Chisum, Whittaker Tree, but I will leave that for another time.

Summary

  • The Big Y test for Paul and Jonathan have defined shared SNPs for the Frazer line and Private SNPs for the Archibald and James Lines
  • Ricks STR test has defined shared STRs for the line of James Frazer who was born about 1804. Any future testers from this line should be able to confirm descent from this line by testing for 391 = 11 which is a slower moving STR. CDYa would be a less reliable STR as it is a STR which changes much more often than most.
  • STR mutations that are unique to Rick and Paul cannot be dated precisely as they could have happened anytime after James Frazer of 1804 was born until Rick and Paul were born. That would be roughly between 1830 and 1950.
  • At the 67 STR testing level, on average, one STR change takes place about every 140 years. Jonathan shows no STR changes the way the chart was drawn. This would be less than average for him. Paul and Jonathan should have had 2 changes each, but each had 3 changes. This means they got the extra two STR changes that Jonathan should have had since 1690. It all averages out.
  • All this DNA testing makes me feel more close to my Canadian Frazer cousins.

 

A New R1a-YP5515 Tree: Patton, Hayes, Grant, and Frazer

Thanks to a Patton, Hayes, Grant and 2 Frazers that have had a BigY test, and the R1a-L664 Administrator, we now have a new SNP Tree. I was happy to hear that Martin, the L664 Administrator, fresh from a 6 week holiday in Australia, had come up with a new tree for YP5515.

First, the YP432 Tree

Technically, at FTDNA where the testing took place, Patton, Hayes, Grant and Frazer are still listed as YP432. FTDNA is a bit behind. Here is the YP432 Tree that Martin has recently updated:

I had mentioned previously that YFull, a business that analyzes these results had branching under YP431, but not under YP5515. The above tree by Martin now shows 5 branches under YP5515 vs. 6 under YP431 on the right side above. Here is YFull’s version of the tree. In their defense, they are coming out with a new YTree this month.

Dating the New Tree – Scandinavians and Scotsmen

The other good news about the new tree Martin developed is the dates. Before the new tree came out, we had YFulls date of a common YP432 ancestor of 2800 years ago. That was not very helpful. Martin’s tree has a date for YP432 which is about 1500 B.C which is even older by 700 years. I will be watching for the new YFull YTree to see if they have a date adjustment for YP432 and a new date for YP5515. Martin goes all the way up to 900-1600 A.D. for the SNPs that the two Frazers share. That is a huge difference from YP432 to the Frazers of 3100 years. Martin also points out that it was likely between 1400 B.C and 400 B.C. when our Scandinavian ancestor or ancestors decided to move to Scotland.

That means that the Frazers and their Patton, Hayes and Grant relatives are actually Scandinavian if we go back far enough. I suppose after a few hundred years of being in Scotland, no one could tell that they weren’t originally Scots. They were certainly in the area before the adoption of surnames. And when those surnames were adopted, they were Scots surnames. On the other hand, the YP431 Branch of YP432 appears to have remained in Scandinavia for the most part.

The YP5515 Tree

The YP5515 Tree is very new even though it dates back to 400-1400 B.C. And at this point there are only 5 BigY tested people on the tree, so we are part of an exclusive club:

Here I have taken out the ID’s for privacy for Patton, Hayes, Grant and Frazer. I did add the two Frazer lines: James and Archibald. This shows that Patton branched off quite early. The tree also appears to show that as late as 800 A.D. Hayes, Grant and Frazer had a common ancestor. Keep in mind that this would have been before the adoption of surnames. Roughly between 800 and 900 A.D. Grant branched off. The dating of the common ancestor of James and Archibald Frazer at 1600 is interesting as we believe the genealogy shows a common ancestor at around 1690 or so. The biggest change was in the SNPs of the two Frazers. They went from FTDNA’s official YP432 to YP432>YP5515>YP6479>YP6488>YP6489.

The above Tree should be taken as quite authoritative. However, it is possible that it could change by the addition of branches as others test for the new SNPs. It appears with all the Patton SNPs that there is quite a bit of room for additional branching. In my previous Blog, I had mentioned a Stewart and Chisolm. These matched by STRs, but had not taken the BigY or SNP tests. It would be possible for Stewart and/ór Chisolm to test and more precisely place themselves on the tree above (based on the SNPs they test positively or negatively for).

Another thing to note on Martin’s Tree is that there are now SNP names rather than just position numbers. For those SNPs that are shared most of them now have YP numbers. The private SNPs that are unshared, remain as position numbers.

Where My YP5515 Tree Went Wrong

When Martin came up with his tree, he noted that mine was mostly right. Here was my mistake:

I had a question mark by Patton as he had a bunch of missing SNPs that others had. Martin rightly had Patton descending from YP5515 on one side and Hayes, Grant and Frazer on the other being all YP6479. It is a subtle distinction, but an important one. Basically it means that Hayes, Grant and Frazer do not descend from the Patton Line, but they both have a common ancestor.

The other difference I notice is that I had the James Line with 4 private SNPs and Martin had them with only 3. Martin does not show the James Line as having the Private SNP #19995371. I checked our James Line tester against Grant and see that they both share that SNP, so that cannot be a private SNP for our James Line tester.

Frazers One Step Further

There is one other male Frazer on the Archibald Line who is in the process of testing YDNA for STRs. If I were to get a test method for each of the Archibald Line Private STRs and this tester were to test for each of these, we would be able to have one more branch on the Archibald Line with a named SNP defining that branch. Those two people have the common ancestor of James Frazer b. about 1803.

What’s Next?

Next we wait for the new YFull YTree. This will give a second opinion on Martin’s Tree. However, YFull does not have all the tested people that Martin has. After that, we wait for the STR results of the other Archibald Line person.

First YFull Analysis of a Frazer BigY Test

I have written quite a bit on Frazer BigY testing. To see my Blogs on the subject, they should be categorized under Frazer YDNA. Paul and Jonathan have both tested for the BigY. BigY finds all the SNPs of the YDNA of a male. These SNPs are both known and previously unknown SNP. These SNPs change roughly every 100 years. There are terminal SNPs, private SNPs and public SNPs, so it gets a bit confusing.

Frazer of North Roscommon, Ireland Terminal SNP

First, I forgot to mention what YFull is. YFull analyzes the Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) BigY test. For Haplogroups like R1a, which is what the Frazers are, they are good at analyzing the information and coming up with new SNPs. Sometimes, they are more up to date than FTDNA which seems ironic as it is FTDNA that did the test to begin with. For example, YFull has my cousin Paul as R-YP5515. FTDNA has Paul’s terminal SNP as R-YP432 which is older. This is how I have drawn it in previous Blogs:

The bottom line is that Frazer and Grant and perhaps Patton are all R-YP5515, but FTDNA doesn’t show it yet. YP5515 is in a box with many other SNPs, but YP5515 is the representative SNP for the group. That means that a bunch of SNPs are in that block, but we don’t know which one was formed first. At any rate, it is a point at which branching occurs. That is one good thing about SNPs. As they are unambiguous, they are good at forming SNP trees, which as basically ancient family (or clan) trees.

FTDNA’s Haplotree Vs YFull’s YTree

Here is how Frazer shows up on FTDNA’s Haplotree:

FTDNA only shows YP431 branching off, but not YP5515.

Here is YFull’s YTree:

In the tree above, Paul is indicated with a red “new”. The YTree tells me a lot more than the FTDNA Haplotree:

  • The R-YP5515 branch beneath R-YP432 is a lot smaller presently than the R-YP431 branch.
  • FTDNA is missing a lot of SNPs under the YP431 branch
  • The R-YP431 branch has a lot of people that appear to have Norwegian ancestors. From my previous Blogs, I have shown that the YP5515 branch appears to be from Scotland.
  • YFull is popular for it’s dating. YP431 shows a common ancestor at 1900 years before present. I assume that once Jonathan’s results are submitted to YFull, there will be new SNPs named and a new date for YP5515.

YFull’s Look At Private SNPs

Here we get into terminology. YFull calls these Novel SNPs, but when I choose them, they are listed as Private.  A simplified explanation is that a Novel SNP is an unnamed one and a Private one is one that is not shared with anyone else (at YFull). YFull gives novel SNPs a YFS number. Here is the list of Paul’s best quality Novel SNPs:

This shows that Paul has 42 Novel SNPs. What I don’t show is that there were 16 ambiguous SNPs. The other categories beyond ambiguous had no Novel SNPs. Those categories are Low Quality, One Reading and INDELs.

I can download the Novel SNPs to an Excel Sheet. Here are Paul’s SNPs that are not shared with Jonathan:

This shows that Paul has 4 Novel SNPs, what FTDNA calls Variants. In my tree above, I had that Paul had 5. When I checked Variant 28804880, I see that was a mistake, so I’ll take that one out.

This is a better result as now there is symmetry between the Archibald Line and the James Line. This shows exactly 4 new novel variants on the Archibald Line and the James Line since their common ancestor. 150 years is an average period for new SNPs, so that could mean 600 years to the common ancestor if these are all actually new SNPs. This could mean that the Frazer had more variants than average or that this R1a branch of YP5515 has more than average. The actual time to the common ancestor is about 260 years if we have done the genealogy correctly.

FTDNA VS YFull

YFull exists because FTDNA is not the best at analyzing its own BigY results. However, FTDNA has a few features that YFull does not have. With FTDNA, one can tell who the matches are. In YFull the matches are just by ID. With FTDNA, I can match by Variants which is useful. At Yfull I can only find matches by known SNPs.

Number of Novel variants

As above, YFull shows 42 Novel SNPs for Paul. This is close to what FTDNA shows. FTDNA shows that Paul shares 36 Novel Variants with Jonathan and that he has 4 unique Variants. That adds up to 40. That would give the impression that YFull is showing 2 more Novel Variants compared to FTDNA. But that is not the case. Actually, there is very little agreement at all.

This is the top of my spreadsheet that compares the Variants. Y5515 is in gold. YFull does not report any of the Variants in the YP5515 block or above. FTDNA does as it is out to date with its Variants. That is why there are so many blanks in the Paul YFull column. That is a difference of 21 SNPs to begin with. Going down the spreadsheet, the Variants that are listed as being the same in both FTDNA and YFull are shown in the Paul YFull column:

This shows that there are only 17 Variants out of 40-42 reported that are the same in both FTDNA and YFull. Below this are 25 Variants that YFull lists that FTDNA does not list. This is perhaps because FTDNA lists only the highest quality Variants. The 25 Variants that YFull lists includes Acceptable and Ambiguous Quality SNPs.

Next Steps

I have recently heard from Martin who is the L664 Administrator. He is back from a trip to Australia and working on getting these SNPs into a new tree. Hopefully Jonathan’s results will make their way to YFull also for analysis and help build out the YTree.

 

 

 

BigY Update On R1a Frazers

The Frazers originating from North Roscommon, Ireland are R1a in YDNA terms. That makes them a bit of an oddball compared to other Frazers. Most other Frazers spell their name Fraser and are R1b. Our Frazer branch is L664 under R1a. That group of people lived around the North Sea according to the L664 YDNA Project administrator.

That means that at some time our Frazer ancestors probably moved from the Netherlands or Germany up to Denmark or Norway and then over to Scotland. Or they may have gone directly to Scotland or up through the England. We don’t know. We do know that this probably happened before the time when surnames were used. Once in the area of present day Scotland, they mixed with the earlier Britains who were R1b. Perhaps this is the area where they lived when they took on the Fraser/Frazer name:

The map above shows Fraser, Chisolm, Grant and Stewart. All these names have been found to be related to Frazer by YDNA. Hayes is also related by YDNA, but I think Hayes may actually be a Grant around the year 1600 or after. Here is a closeup of the Fraser Lands in 1587, showing proximity to the Chisolm and Grant Lands:

Stewart Update

In my previous Blog on BigY, I had drawn a STR tree without Stewart. Here is the new one with him included:

Stewart/Stuart is in red above. He is important, because his STR signature is the same as the common ancestor for Grant, Hayes and Stewart. If I had room, I would draw another line to the bottom of the page with Stewart showing no STR changes. Here is Stewart added to the SNP Tree:

The Stewart on the chart has expressed interest in BigY testing, so there should be more updates to come.

Grant Update

I was pleasantly surprised to see the results of a recent Grant BigY test. In the SNP tree above, the bolded names have taken the BigY, so I will need to update Grant. In my STR tree, I had two Grants. The one that took the BigY test had his most distant ancestor as:

James GRANT “of Carron”, 1728 – 1790

Here is my STR update for Grant of Carron. All I did was make it more clear which Grant was which:

Grant of carron BigY

The Grant BigY test threw me off a bit as the results showed that he was one SNP away from Paul and Jonathan. Usually, I am looking for a zero SNP difference. Grant of Carron shows a L1012 SNP that Paul and Jonathan do not have. Unfortunately, I don’t know why that is the case. Also I don’t know much about the L1012 SNP. It could be that the L1012 SNP was tested in error, or that Paul and Jonathan should have that SNP or that the L1012 SNP is branching below the green box where I have Grant on my SNP tree. The last option does not seem likely as I don’t have named SNPs in the green box, so there shouldn’t be named SNPs below the box.

Grant matched Paul and Jonathan on Variant 23614618. However, Hayes did not match on that variant. That could lead to this tree:

This change pointed out an earlier mistake I had made. I had 23619535 in the Archibald Line and in the orange box. I should have had 23614618 in the orange box. At any rate, that variant is now moved up to the Frazer/Grant mustard colored box. Another option would have been to move 23614618  to the green box of Hayes, Grant and Stewart. This would be assuming that Hayes should have been positive for 23614618 but had a poor test result. All these trees are preliminary until I wait for the R1a Administrators to come up with a more official tree. Another option would be to wait for the YFull analysis. However, that is dependent upon testers using their service. At any rate, it is good to have fewer SNPs in the orange box as we are bumping up against a likely Frazer date of 1690. The final change in the SNP Tree has to do with Chisolm. We don’t have a BigY for this YDNA relative. That means I don’t know if Chisolm goes with the mustard box or the orange one. I’ll leave him with the orange right now as there are so many SNPs there.

Summary and What’s Next

  • I have added Stewart to my SNP Tree and STR Tree
  • A BigY Test for Grant pointed out a mistake I made earlier for one of the variants on my proposed tree
  • The Grant BigY results may result in a small node where the Grants and Frazers had a common ancestor.
  • Once the R1a and L664 administrators are done with their analysis, I would like to see three or four levels below the official level of R-YP432 for Frazer. These would include branching for Hayes and Grant also.
  • I’m a bit unsure of Patton. He tested positive for R-YP5515 but is missing some of the other variants that are seen in other BigY results. However, that would not make a difference in the overall structure of the SNP Tree.
  • I am looking forward to a BigY test for the Stewart/Stuart in the group.

Comparing Frazer Big Y Tree With STR Trees

Recently, I have written some Blogs on Frazer BigY results. Here is the most recent BigY Blog. My cousin Paul’s results are in and Jonathan’s results are in. These two people represent the major Frazer lines from North Roscommon, Ireland in the early 1700’s. Maurice Gleeson was one of the first people to compare BigY results and STR results. His video on the subject is here:

Building a Family Tree with SNPs, STRs, & Named People (Maurice Gleeson)

BigY Frazer Results: Looking Into the Future

I have built a tree based on the initial two Frazer BigY results. I call this looking into the future as the variants shown as just numbers below, will be the future SNPs which people will test to find out what branch of the YDNA tree they are in. Here is the SNP tree I have so far:

This is a compressed zig zag tree to save space. The tree is with the reference of the Frazers as those are the tests I’m familiar with. This doesn’t mean that Frazer descended from Hayes who descended from Patton. Patton and Hayes should have their own branches descending down also. This tree means that at the Hayes level, Frazer and Hayes shared the same ancestor (and variants). Likewise, at the R-YP5515 level, Patton, Hayes and Frazer all shared the same common ancestor in the quite distant past.

STR Trees: What About the Grants?

My distant cousin on the James Line of the Frazers wondered what happened to the Grants after we did the BigY test. She wondered because the Grant name was the one that came up quite consistently as a Frazer STR match. Well, I don’t think that the Grants that matched Jonathan have taken the BigY test, so they didn’t show up there. However, the closest non-Frazer match in the BigY test was a Hayes. Here is a first shot at a Frazer/Grant/Hayes STR Tree with dates:

The idea behind making a STR Tree is to find the common STR values. These become the ancestral STRs at the top of the tree. Then find the fewest changes going down to create a tree. Finally, make a guess as to the dates. At the 67 STR level, I think there is a chance of a new STR every 150 years or so. However, this varies. Also, as in the SNP tree above, I know that the common ancestor between Paul and Jonathan is about 260 years ago. This STR tree should correspond roughly with the SNP Tree up to where the Hayes come into the picture. That means the 700 year guess for my STR tree corresponds with the SNP tree of 260-760 years plus 348-900 years or 608-1660 years. What the second tree does is to help calibrate the dates. As the SNPs are more set in stone than the STRs, the SNP tree also sets the structure for the STR tree. The STR tree has to follow the SNP tree.

The STR tree also points out that Paul and Jonathan should be equally related to Grant1, Hayes and Grant2. That is because, if the tree is drawn correctly, they all have the same Frazer/Grant/Hayes ancestor. This is despite the fact that Grant1, Hayes and Grant2 have different genetic distances to Paul and Jonathan. This is also assuming that they all have about the same number of generations to the common ancestor.

The other thing that the STR tree shows is that Hayes should be more closely related to Grant than the Frazer family.

On the Chisolm Trail

Now that I see that the SNP tree supported the Frazer/Grant/Hayes STR tree, I will add Chisolm to the STR Tree. Two names that are on Paul and Jonathan’s STR match list are Chisolm and Stuart. I had looked at Stuart before and the Stuart STRs seem to fall in line with Grant and Hayes. However, after my first look at the Chisolm STRs, it appears that Chisolm is more aligned with the Frazers.

Chisolm STRs

Here are some of the Chisolm STRs at the Chisolm YDNA Project page:

The first line is the Chisolm mode. The mode is the most commonly occurring STR value. The next four lines are R1a Chisolms. The Chisolm that matches the Frazers is on the bottom line. Note that any of the highlighted STRs indicate a variation from the mode. That means that this Chisolm is not a very good match to the other Chisolms. Here are some of the Chisum/Chisolm STRs on the bottom row compared to Frazers, Grants and a Stuart:

Most notably, Chisum is aligning with Frazer at position 389b = 30 and 534 = 14 rather than with Grant, Hayes or Stuart. This appears to be leaving 447 – 24 as a signature Frazer STR.

New STR Tree with chisolm

This is a bit of odds and sods tree with four different surnames.

Paul/Chisolm Parallel mutation

Paul and Chisolm have a parrallel mutation at 576=19. This has the effect of the STR test making it look like Paul is a closer match to Chisolm than he really is. Chisolm shows up as Paul’s closest STR match after Paul’s match with his cousin Jonathan. FTDNA show that both Paul and Chisolm have a value of 19 for STR 576. However, assuming the STR Tree is correct, Paul and Chisolm both developed that STR mutation independently. Regardless, if my STR tree is correct, then Chisolm is a closer match to Frazer than to either Grant or Hayes. I had not expected this result.

Where Do We Go From Here?

Ideally, a BigY test for Grant and Chisolm would sort things out.

Based on the STR tree, I have put in where I think Grant and Chisolm would be on the SNP tree. If Chisolm were to take the BigY test, then it would be clear which of the orange variants are Frazer variants and not Chisolm and which new variants are Chisolm and not Frazer. A BigY test by one of the Grants would also sort out the Grants and Hayes variants. By the way, a Stuart match STR match should be included with Hayes and Grant on the above SNP Tree.

Summary and Observations

  • In broad strokes a SNP change should happen about at the same rate that a 67 STR marker would happen. This means that a SNP tree should mimic a STR tree in both shape and the rough number of mutations of both STRs and SNPs.
  • A SNP tree should be the undisputed tree when comparing SNP trees and STR trees. This is because a SNP is a one-time event. A STR mutation may be a one time event, a back mutation or a parallel mutation.
  • Comparing SNP trees and STR trees can be helpful in calibrating dates of trees. A known common ancestor date is certainly helpful also.
  • When considering dates, it is important to know when the use of surnames became common practice. One reference I read for Scotland was that the date was the 16th century. That date is interesting as my STR tree guesses at a common ancestor for Chisolm and Frazer at about 1400 A.D.
  • The same reference says that in the Highlands and northern isles of Scotland surnames did not fully take root until the year 1800. If Hayes and Grant were from the Highlands, this could explain the different surnames.
  • This late date of adoption of surnames could explain why the surnames are not matching well with the YDNA testing. A late-adopted surname would not have time to build up a head of steam or a large amount of descendants.
  • I will be looking forward to FTDNA adopting the R-YP5515 SNP. FTDNA also needs at least two more levels of SNPs. One at the Hayes/Frazer level and one at the Frazer level.

Frazer Big Y Results: Archibald Line and James Line

I have previously written Blogs on my cousin Paul’s Big Y results here and here. Paul is my 2nd cousin once removed. He is from the Archibald Line. Archibald and James are believed to be two Frazer brothers living in North Roscommon in the early 1700’s. Just yesterday, Jonathan’s Big Y results came in. Jonathan is from the James line.

Paul is two steps below Hubert on the left and Jonathan is one step below Walter on the right hand side.

What is a Big Y?

The Big Y is an expensive YDNA test that looks at SNPs. SNPs are stable locations where mutation occur on the male Y Chromosome. These mutation happen around every 150 years. The could happen more quickly or more slowly, but 150 years would be an average. Like a laser beam, these SNP mutations make a map straight down the Frazer male line heading toward the distant past. The special feature of the Big Y is that it discovers new SNPs that have not been previously discovered. These newly discovered SNPs are helpful in verifying genealogical trees – especially when taken in tandem like we did with Paul and Jonathan.

In my previous Blog, I had looked at these SNPs for my cousin Paul and came up with a tree that looked like this:

FTDNA that does the Big Y testing has Paul as R-YP432. They don’t yet have listed YP5515 which YFull has. YFull is a service that looks a Big Y and similar results for a fee. Using that information, they create YDNA trees, date the connections, and do other things. Just yesterday I sent Paul’s Big Y results to YFull for analysis.

All the numbers in the green boxes above are SNPs. The numbers with no letters are SNP positions that haven’t been named yet. The bottom green box is for Paul. He has more unique SNPs that I didn’t include in the bottom box. I would expect that out of these SNPs, Paul will share some with Jonathan and that Jonathan and Paul would have their own unique SNPs that happened since the two branches split in the early 1700’s.

Let’s Compare Paul and Jonathan’s SNPs

According to FTDNA Paul and Jonathan share 36 Novel Variants. However, many of those shared between Paul and Jonathan are not uniquely shared. In other words they would be shared with Patton or especially Hayes above the Frazers. First, I’ll add in the SNPs that were only Paul’s before Jonathan’s results came in:

I compressed the tree above to save space. There is still a Patton block of SNPs and under that a Hayes block of SNPs. The orange SNPs under Hayes were Paul’s unique SNPs before Jonathan had his Big Y results. When I compare the 36 SNPs that Paul and Jonathan share, only six of those are in the orange block above. When I separate out Paul’s newly unique SNPs, I get the Archibald Line:

The brown box labelled Archibald Line is Paul’s version of the Archibald Line. If others were to do this test in the Archibald line, there would be some shared and some unique SNPs again. Those SNPs would represent the different branches in the Archibald Line. The orange box shows all the SNPs that are shared by the Frazers in the DNA Project. These SNPs represent the father of the Archibald and James Lines who was probably another Archibald. Note that Paul has 5 mutations since the lines split. That would be more than expected. If we use the average of 150 years, that would put the common Frazer ancestor at 750 years ago. As we believe that the common ancestor lived about 300 years ago, then there must have been a mutation in Paul’s line about every 52 years or every other generation. I am guessing that there will be fewer mutation on Jonathan’s James Line side.

Jonathan’s SNPs

I’m curious to see how these come out. Jonathan has 28 Novel Variants (the same number that Paul now has). From what I can tell, FTDNA calls the unnamed SNPs Novel Variants. Here is my spreadsheet showing the overlaps and unique SNPs between Jonathan and Paul:

Paul’s 5 unique SNPs are shown in blue. Jonathan’s 5 unique SNPs from Paul are shown in yellow. However, I have a note. The note is that Hayes shares 9510807 with Jonathan. Hayes is upstream from the Frazers SNPs. That means that Paul should have also had 9510807. That means that Jonathan has 4 unique SNPs compared to Paul.

Now For the Complete Frazer Y SNP Tree

I put the SNP that Jonathan had in common with Hayes up in the Hayes Block with an asterisk. That is the SNP that Paul should have had but didn’t test positive for.

A Problem With Dating the Frazer Common Ancestor

Let’s assume that the common Frazer Ancestor, the parent of Archibald and James was born in 1690. Let’s further assume that Paul and Jonathan were born in 1950. That leaves 260 years. I will double that for the two lines and divide by the total number of unique SNP which is 9. That gives me roughly 58 years per mutation. That seems to push down the rough estimate of 150 years per mutation quite a bit.

I do get a little consolation in the fact that if our genealogy is right, Paul is 8 generations from the Frazer common ancestor and Jonathan is 7 generations away. That means that Paul’s line had one more generation to form an extra SNP compared to Jonathan – which he apparently did.

Let’s assume that 150 years per mutation is correct. That would mean that the common Frazer ancestor would be 6-700 years ago. To me, this seems unlikely. We have two male Frazers living in North Roscommon in the early 1700’s. We also have a documented Frazer widow, believed to be the mother. Family tradition has the father of Archibald and James as an Archibald born around 1690. Also we have autosomal DNA matches between the Archibald and James Lines. These have not been proven to be linked to the Frazer common ancestor, but seem likely.

It figures that this Big Y test created additional questions! We will have to await more analysis from YFull and the R1a YDNA Project Administrators. Here is one more try at adding dates using the 58 years per mutation versus the 150 years per mutation:

Oddly enough, this makes me feel better. The reason is, that even with 150 years per SNP, I am getting up to 4200 years ago up at the YP432 Level. This is more than the 2800 years what YFull currently has for a most likely time to a common ancestor at YP432.

Summary

  • The Big Y test for Paul and Jonathan resulted in more unique Variants than expected for both Paul and Jonathan
  • Using average years per SNP mutation, this would push back the common ancestor for the James and Archibald lines quite a way into the past.
  • Future analysis may resolve this issue. YFull will be one company analyzing the Frazer Big Y test. I will also ask for advice from others.
  • There is one other Frazer from Canada who is expecting YDNA STR results. These results may also help
  • Once the James Line and Archibald Line SNPs are named and tests developed for those SNPs, male line Frazer descendants will be able to determine their Line by testing the new SNPs. Certain SNPs could also define sub-branches below the Archibald and James Lines.

 

First Frazer Big Y Results in a YP4415 SNP

In my last Blog, I wrote about my cousin Paul’s BigY results. The BigY takes a look at a large region of YDNA looking for existing SNPs and new SNPs. SNPs are what define the Y tree going back to genetic Adam. As a refresher, YDNA looks at the father’s father’s father’s line only. So if you are a Frazer, your father is a Frazer. At some point two different Frazer lines merge into one. That merging point is the two lines’ TMRCA or Most Recent Common Ancestor. (I don’t know what the T stands for – the?) Then at some point all the Frazers tested bump into a common ancestor. For Paul and Jonathan who took the BigY test, that bumped-into Frazer would be the father of the Archibald and James Lines. However, the YDNA doesn’t stop there, it keeps going back and back and back.

Paul’s YDNA Matches

In my last Blog, I had mentioned that Paul had been designated as YP432 by FTDNA. That SNP has common ancestors, but they go back to 2800 years ago. As such, others that are YP432 will be from diverse background. I had mentioned some Norwegian and Swedish names. This makes sense as the L664 SNP which YP432 comes from is Germanic. These Germanic people moved into Scandinavia, England and apparently Scotland at some point.

FTDNA R1a Projects: L664, YP432, YP431 and YP5515

In my previous Blog, I had looked at matches at the R1a and all Subclades Project. However, FTDNA has another YDNA Project called simply the R1a Project. I find it a bit confusing that there are two R1a projects, but here is what the R1a Project has under YP432:

This shows some of the people that have tested positive for YP432. There are two branches shown here. The larger branch looks to mostly have ancestors from Norway and Sweden and is the YP431 Branch of YP432. The Frazers are on the YP5515 Branch. The Grants are also listed under YP5515. This is likely due to STR similarities as the Grants have not had their SNPs tested – just the STRs. In my previous Blogs, I had mentioned similarities between the Grants and the Frazers in the YDNA.

This doesn’t mean that the Frazers came from Norway or Sweden. Perhaps one branch of YP432 went to Norway and Sweden (YP431) and our branch of YP5515 went to Scotland and/or England.

The Hayes that I mentioned in my previous Blog is also listed, but in a separate group. Our Frazers are called YP5515 – x and Hayes is plain YP5515. I’m not sure why.

another YP5515 Match – Patton

The YP5515 SNP Group is a very select group so far. There is Hayes and Patton. Assuming that these were the first two YP5519, then Frazer is the third. Patton shares YP5515 according to Paul’s BigY Match List:

I highlighted in gold the SNPs that Paul shares with Hayes and Patton and not the other YP432 matches. I haven’t seen Patton in the R1a Project, so he probably never joined it. Two of those SNPs have no name yet – just a position number. As far as I know, all YP5515 people share these 7 gold SNPs.

What Are the SNPs Unique to Frazer?

We will know that better when Jonathan’s BigY results come in. However, for now, I can guess. The BigY tells me the SNPs that Paul has that Hayes doesn’t have. There are 11 of these SNPs. The SNPs that Paul has that Patton doesn’t have are quite a bit more. Paul has 20 SNPs that Patton doesn’t have. What does this mean?

First, here are the 11 SNPs that Paul has that neither Hayes nor Patton has:

These would be the SNPs unique to Paul. I would expect to see some of these in Jonathan’s results.

Additional Shared SNPs With Hayes – A New Branch?

Recall that I said that Paul had additional SNPs not shared with Patton. There were 20 altogether. Here are the SNPs Paul doesn’t share with Patton that are different than the ones he doesn’t share with Hayes. I know, there are a lot of negatives here.

I have marked those 9 SNPs in blue. It turns out that those SNPs Paul doesn’t share with Patton, he does share with Hayes. To me, that means that Paul and Hayes should be in a new branch together.

In my new tree, I’ve simplified the YP431 Branch. In YP5515 there are 7 SNPs shared by Patton, Hayes and Frazer. Below that are the 9 SNPs shared by Hayes and Frazer. Below that are the 11 SNPs that Frazer has that appear to be unique. I say appear because there could be others that share at least some of these SNPs. All these SNPs together add up to 27 SNPs. I’m not sure how to date the SNPs. If these 27 SNPs were since 2800 years ago, that would be about 100 years per SNP on average. If I’m right, then that would mean around 1100 years up to the Frazer/Hayes common ancestor. That should be 900 A.D or before the time of surnames. It will be interesting to see if all my guesses are right.

Another interesting point is that Paul and Jonathan’s TMRCA was around 300 years ago. That means that there should be a few SNPs different between Paul and Jonathan. They will each have their own branch off the Frazer Tree.

 

 

A New Frazer Big Y Test Is In

I found out today that the Big Y results are in for Paul. He is my second cousin once removed on my Frazer side. So far, I can see that his SNP now is R-YP432. The Big Y will tell you what your lowest known FTDNA accepted SNP is. It will also tell you your SNPs that don’t even have a name yet.

L664

R-YP432 is a branch of L664 which is part of a much larger R1a YDNA group. The chart below shows the L664 people as “Germanic”. Who knew? Wouldn’t one think that the Frazers would be Scots – not Germanic?

A more likely guess would have been that the Frazers would be with the Norsemen at Z284. The Norsemen probably made their way to Scotland. However, the YDNA seems to see it differently. The insert map above gives possible routes of migration. It shows the L664 coming out of the area of Germany and going up to England or Denmark. My history is not the best, but I do know that the Danes invaded the British Isles at some point. Could this have been related to the start of our branch of Frazers? Or perhaps some R1a ancestors joined up with the Norsemen. The Frazers could have even come in with the Anglo Saxons or William the Conqueror. Who knows?

Previous Predictions Based on STRs

Back in November 2015, I had written a Blog on Frazer YDNA. At that time, I had talked to an R1a administrator, Martin. He was quite sure, based on the STR testing, that our Frazers were L664. Further, based on values of specific STRs that Martin knew about, I had shown this Chart:

Martin had thought it unlikely that the Frazers would be in crossed out SNP areas based on their STR values. Notice that they turned out to be in YP432 on the bottom right.

How Old Is YP432?

YFull is a service that dates SNPs among other things. Here is their date for R-M198:

FTDNA previously had put Paul into the R-M198 Group. This is a very general R1a Group. Comparing Paul with other M198’s would put their most recent common ancestor at 8500 years ago. Aah, the good old days. The YFull Tree above brings us through 4,400 years of Frazer history – up to 4100 years ago. This is where I left off on the last Blog. The L664 Administrator for the R1a Project could tell that is where the Frazers should be based on their STR testing.

The YFull YP432 Tree

YFull shows a common ancestor for YP432 at 2800 years before present. I’m sure that gave the Frazers plenty of time to go from wherever they came from to Scotland and then to Ireland.

I plan to submit Paul’s Big Y results to YFull for further analysis. People that have submitted their Big Y results to YFull show up as ID’s. For example, it appears that id: YF09214 has English ancestors. Once YFull has a chance to look at the results, they may show a new branch of the YP432 Tree. One goal would be for the Frazers to have their own family SNP identified.

Competing Trees

The YFull Tree is above and appears to be the better tree. Here is the FTDNA Haplotree which seems to be lagging in the YP432 Department:

One next step would be to compare the FTDNA “Novel Variants” to see if any of them are named SNPs on the YFull Tree. The other, as I mentioned is to submit Paul’s Big Y results to YFUll for analysis. I note that FTDNA does have YP431, but Paul is not listed under that SNP.

Where Are Our Frazers On the YP432 Tree?

I have trouble seeing the YFull Tree, so I drew my interpretation of it:

Our Frazers, according to FTDNA are at YP432*. However, as I’ve shown above, FTDNA doesn’t have as many SNPs listed as YFull does. All the ‘YP’ SNPs, in fact, are YFull identified SNPs. According to ISOGG:

YP = SNPs identified by citizen scientists from genetic tests, then submitted to the Y Full team for verification.

Who Are Some Other YP432 People?

The Frazers are part of the R1a YDNA Project. That project appears to have two small YP432 groups.

These five YP432 people appear to have ancestors from Norway or Sweden.

Other Big Y Matches

It took a little while for Paul’s matches to show up. It appears that the closest ones have a zero known SNP difference, so I chose them. Then the list is sorted by those that share the most Novel Variants. My question is, how novel could they be if they are shared? I think that what they mean is unnamed SNPs.

The numbers on the right are the SNPs that do match.

Paul’s matching Novel SNPs with Hayes

As noted above, Paul shares 30 Novel SNPs with Hayes. I looked up all the positions at ybrowse.org and many of those ‘Novel’ SNPs have names. Here are the first 26:

I was especially interested in the YP5500 series SNPs as that sounded like the YP5515 SNP which forms one of the branches of the YP432 Tree.

I did find YP5515. It was the 27th Shared Novel Variant between Paul and Hayes.

That is good news as that further defines the Frazer Branch. When I go back to the YFull Tree, I see that the one person there that is YP5515 is also YP5516, YP5517, YP5518 and YP5519. This is what is called a block of SNPs. Both Paul and Hayes are positive for these SNPs. YP5515 was probably chosen as representative of these SNPs and likely because it was the best quality SNP for testing.

What About Jonathan?

Jonathan’s test should be coming in shortly. His Big Y was ordered not too long after Paul’s. I had a bit of a scare, because I was looking at my old Blog. In that Blog, Jonathan was listed as R-M458. When I compared that to Paul’s R-L664, they were no where near each other. However, sometime since my old Blog and now, Jonathan has been stealthily changed by FTDNA to the more generic R-M198. I fully expect FTDNA to have Jonathan as R-YP432 when his Big Y results come out.

Next Steps

The Big Y’s strong suit isn’t in predicting the YP432. There are other tests that could have done that. The next step is to look at the private SNPs. Jonathan’s Big Y should be coming in next. That test should show some shared SNPs that should create a new branch off the YP432 tree. In fact, I’ve shown one branch already. I expect that there will be more branching off from R-YP5515.

It is interesting that the YDNA goes so far back. We wanted to find out where the Frazers were in Scotland. Instead, at this time, we’ve skipped Scotland and appear to be somewhere in Noway or Sweden! However, I feel like the Hayes match at YP4415 will reel us back into the area of Scotland and England at least.

The Frazers of North Roscommon, Ireland: STR Tree and Signature STRs

Now that a DNA sale is on at Family Tree DNA, my mind has turned to Frazer YDNA. I had thought that I had mentioned STR Trees and signature STRs for the Frazer family before. But after looking at my old Blogs, apparently I have not. I have talked about STR signatures, but will go into more detail here.

Present YDNA Testing of North Roscommon Frazer Descendants

At this time two male Frazer descendants have tested for YDNA. They are Paul and Jonathan.

Paul is two generations below on the left side and Jonathan is one generation below on the right side. If I have this chart right, that would mean that Paul and Jonathan are 6th cousins once removed. Their common ancestor was probably another Archibald Frazer born around 1690 who married a Mary. Both Paul and Jonathan have tested their YDNA for 67 STRs. YDNA tests male only lines – in this case if focuses on the Frazer Line .

A Signature STR

It would be interesting to know what the signature STR is for this Frazer ancestor born in 1690. How could we discover that? If we had  many Frazer testers, we would like take the most common STR values and assume that those would be the oldest values. However, we only have two testers, so that would be difficult.

The problem with STRs is that they could go up or down. We would like the older STR signature to go to our 1690 Frazer. That means we have to go back in time a step to try to see which way the STRs are moving. The other thing is that we hope that they are moving in one direction only!

Jonathan represents the older Frazer line

In my past Blogs on the subject, I have assumed that Jonathan’s STRs represented the common Frazer ancestor more than Paul’s STRs. My reasoning was that Paul had very few matches at all levels. Usually at a lower STR level one has more matches. That said to me that Paul’s line’s STRs had mutated away from the ancestral signature. Here are the three differences between Jonathan’s and Paul’s STRs:

Jonathan’s results are on the top and Paul on the bottom. None of these STRs are very slow moving STRs. CDYa is a very fast moving STR. So fast, that some genetic genealogists don’t like to use this STR in their analyses.

The L664 Mode

It is my assumption that our Frazers are part of the R1a-L664 Haplogroup. That is based on the fact that usually this group has a value of the 388 STR of 10. That is the case for Paul and Jonathan. The mode is the STR value that is the most common. The mode is also assumed to the be representative of the oldest values. The L664 mode for the 391 STR is 10 and the mode for 576 STR is 18. That confirms my hunch that Jonathan has the oldest STRs. The mode for the CDYa STR is 33-39, which is a little more like Jonathan than Paul. However, as I’ve noted that STR can be unreliable – especially over long time frames.

Here are some of the other SNPs under the L664 Haplogroup:

This is to give the reader an idea that there are many SNPs under this Haplogroup. It looks like there are 4-7 levels below L664. More SNPs could be discovered by the Big Y test.

How old is L664

It’s quite old. Here is the YFull Tree with dates:

Note that a common ancestor with another L664 person could go back 4100 years. That’s a long time. And our Frazer testers are not even confirmed to be L664. That means that their Frazer SNPs are still in the cave man ages. That is one reason why Big Y tests are needed. This YFull Tree above follows one branch down to where the common ancestors are 300 years ago. That is closer to where I would like to see our Frazer SNPs. Note that the YP1168 is also shown on the pink tree above. So while these SNP trees look quite innocent, it is not always obvious that they could represent close to 4,000 years.

The North Roscommon Frazer mode based on the l664 mode

In order to get our Frazer mode, I would just have to look at the STRs that the Frazer have that are different than the L664 Mode. The L664 is the going back in time Haplogroup that I mentioned above.

Above, I left out those Frazer STRs that were the same as the L664 mode. Of these STRs, the 450 is likely the most significant as it has the lowest likelihood of mutating. That is shown in orange with a value of 0.200.

Putting It All Together In a Simple Frazer Tree

Here is a simple tree:

A few comments:

  • There may be some refinements to this Frazer Ancestor Signature STR, but this is the main idea.
  • It seems odd that Jonathan would have no STR mutations between 1690 and when he was born. It is likely that he has had mutations – probably with one of the faster mutating STRs
  • A new Frazer descendant has ordered a 67 STR test. He is on the Archibald line, so that should clarify things there as far as where the mutations happened.

Keep an Eye on the Grants

By YDNA, the Grants seem related to Frazers. I am assuming the relation goes back in time in Scotland. I don’t know if this break happened before the adoption of surnames or after. Here is a Grant/Frazer Tree I had made some time ago:

  • The Frazers could be related to other Scots Lines. However, this one seemed to stand out.
  • I took the STR signature concept I brought up in this blog and applied it further back in time and have a Grant/Frazer Ancestor signature at the top.
  • In this scenario, the only genetic difference between a common Grant/Frazer ancestor and a Frazer ancestor is the 447 STR.

Things to Come

  • Pat has ordered a 67 STR test for her male cousin and a Family Finder test for his sister
  • Joanna and I have ordered BigY tests for Jonathan and Paul.
  • With all this YDNA testing we are coming from the distant past into the less distant path. The goal is to confirm our Frazer Lines and connect with some as yet unknown Frazer Lines.
  • The three pronged attack is: genealogy, autosomal DNA testing for the last 250 years, and the Big Y to cover from perhaps 2,000 years ago to as recent as we can get. We will wait and see.
  • The advantage of having two Big Y tests is that we should discover new SNPs that are unique to our branch of Frazers.
  • I plan to use YFull to analyze Paul’s BigY results to get dates for the SNPs.

A New Frazer DNA Test on the Stinson Line

It has been a while since there has been a new Frazer test. With the results of Doug’s Aunt Rita in on the Stinson Line, the Frazer DNA Project has roared back into life. Here is the Stinson Line of the Frazers:

I tried to air brush out some of the last names for privacy. Doug and Aunt Rita are on the green line. They share 1,894.6 cM of DNA which is a bit higher than the average posted on the ISOGG Web page:

Note that in comparing those in the chart above, that they may match on the Frazer Line or the Stinson Line. However, in matching those outside this chart, they would be more likely to match on the Frazer Line.

The Numbers, Please

Now it’s time to run the numbers. I found a cool new tool at Gedmatch for doing this. First I added all the Frazers to a group.

Then I just had to choose that group for different analyses. Here is the Autosomal Matrix. This is like ordering the “everything” pizza. This Matrix has ALL the Frazers:

This is also known as the Frazer eye test. I have the Frazer/Stinson group in yellow. These Frazers are only in the Frazer/Stinson Line. Then, there is the green group. They are in the Stinson Line but also in at least one other Frazer Line. There are some good matches where green and yellow intersect, notably with Jane. These are more likely to be Frazer/Stinson Line matches. Where the green intersects with green, it will be difficult to tell if the DNA is from the Frazer/Stinson Line or from another line. The names in white are from my family. I recently had my sister Lori tested. Now there are 5 siblings tested in my family. Paul is a second cousin, once removed. Purple represents the James Line of the Frazers. There is a purple Jonathan and a white Jonathan. Scanning the yellow names from left to right, they match my family a bit more than the James Line Frazers in purple. There are a few exceptions where there are higher matches. This may be due to a match on a collateral line. Or this may be due to the effect that if a match is going to break through a distant relationship it can just as well break through as a somewhat larger match than as a smaller one.

Triangulation Groups

I like to use Triangulation Groups to sort out some of these families. A Triangulation Group points to a particular ancestor which should point to a particular Line of Frazers. The problem in this was alluded to above. That is, what if some Frazers are from more than one line? In order to somewhat get around this, I’ll make special note of the Frazers that are known to be only in the Frazer/Stinson Line. Namely, Rita, Cathy, Ros, Doug and Vivien.

Chromosome 1

In Chromosome 1, I see a Frazer/Stinson  Line Triangulation Group (TG). I previously had my brother Jon in that group, but that appears to have been a mistake:

Here is the what the TG likely looks like:

I say likely, as Jane and Michael also descend from the Richard Frazer Line. However, that would put the common ancestor as Archibald the father of this Archibald Frazer which would be a less likely match.

Chromosome 3

The next TG is also difficult to explain:

Here we have Michael and Rita, both in the Frazer/Stinson Line. They both match Prudence from the somewhat distant James Line of Frazers. I had to double check to find the match between Michael and Rita to finalize the TG. Here is a possible rendering of that TG:

I pulled Michael (pink box) off the Richard Line as he wasn’t put into the Frazer/Stinson Line on this chart to save room. This particular representation forces our attention to the parents of the James (on the right) and Archibald Lines (on the left above). However, a slightly later unknown common collateral line would also be possible. For example, Prudence has a Peyton ancestor. If Michael and Rita also had the father of Prudence’s Peyton ancestor as their ancestor, that would put the top circle one level down. The TG is sure. The interpretation of who the TG represents is not as sure due to holes in the genealogy near the top of the chart.

Chromosome 4

Here is a new TG with Jane, Cathy and Rita:

This TG is important because it is most certainly a Frazer/Stinson Line TG. I had to take down the Gedmatch levels to get the match between Jane and Cathy. If I were to map out the Frazer side grandparents for Rita, Cathy and Jane, they might look something like this:

As you compare Cathy and Jane’s green sections with each other, you can see that the Frazer overlap is relatively small.

Chromosome 5

In Chromosome 5, there is a similar situation with Pat, Cathy and Jane:

Again, I had from my Gedmatch download that Cathy matched Patricia and Cathy matched Jane. What was missing was the Cathy to Jane match. I lowered the Gedmatch thresholds and found a Cathy to Jane match right in the expected area between 73 and 76. Note that the Patricia to Cathy match ended at about 77M. The Jane and Cathy match started about 73.

73 is the crossover for Jane from McBride to Frazer. It is the number that Jane has in common with both her matches. Likewise, Patricia’s crossover from her Frazer grandparent to her Gray grandparent is at 77M. It is the number that she has in common with both her matches. So that tells me something is going on there (i.e. a crossover). The area between 73 and 77 is where Patricia and Jane match.

In reviewing my past work, I see that I had shown a TG with Gladys, Pat and Cathy in this area. To see that, I need to go further up my spreadsheet:

So let’s map out Gladys’ DNA from her grandparents. It looks like her match with Cathy and Patricia tell me that she has Frazer DNA from 54M to 134M. But where is her match with Jane? When I run a one to one match at Gedmatch between Gladys and Jane, I get this:

5 73,514,449 76,680,718 5.3 842

With this information, I’ll draw a revised Chromosome 5 Map:

It was a little tricky to draw this map. I think that what happened was that Patricia and Gladys share the common ancestors: George Frazer and Susannah Price. Notice that Patricia and Gladys have a large match. I think that match is picking up the older crossover in Patricia of George Frazer and Susannah Price at position 77M. Well, you can see I’m still working these things out!

Chromosome 9

Here is a new Frazer/Stinson TG at the end of Chromosome 9:

In it, we have Doug, Rita and Patricia. Interestingly, Ros, Vivien, Gladys and Bill don’t appear to be in this TG. They seem to be busy being related to each other on their non-Frazer sides.

Anything Else, Summary, Conclusions?

  • I found it interesting that Rita matched Prudence. Rita’s match with Prudence was a little larger than any found so far and Rita and Prudence are on the two most distant Frazer Lines of Archibald and James.
  • It is interesting to look at the autosomal matrix for the Frazers as the higher number indicate family groupings. Overlaps in the families where Frazer cousins married cause even higher cMs in the matches.
  • A focus on the Frazer/Stinson TGs helped shore up that line of the Frazers. In cases where a TG could be from one line or the other, the addition of a Frazer/Stinson only Line tester gave more evidence that those TGs were more clearly in the Frazer/Stinson Line.
  • I did some Chromosome mapping based on the TGs. The TGs gave clear indications of crossovers. However, it was not always clear as to which generation we were mapping to as far as specific ancestors.
  • Here is an update of the Frazer TG Matrix: