A New Frazer DNA Test on the Stinson Line

It has been a while since there has been a new Frazer test. With the results of Doug’s Aunt Rita in on the Stinson Line, the Frazer DNA Project has roared back into life. Here is the Stinson Line of the Frazers:

I tried to air brush out some of the last names for privacy. Doug and Aunt Rita are on the green line. They share 1,894.6 cM of DNA which is a bit higher than the average posted on the ISOGG Web page:

Note that in comparing those in the chart above, that they may match on the Frazer Line or the Stinson Line. However, in matching those outside this chart, they would be more likely to match on the Frazer Line.

The Numbers, Please

Now it’s time to run the numbers. I found a cool new tool at Gedmatch for doing this. First I added all the Frazers to a group.

Then I just had to choose that group for different analyses. Here is the Autosomal Matrix. This is like ordering the “everything” pizza. This Matrix has ALL the Frazers:

This is also known as the Frazer eye test. I have the Frazer/Stinson group in yellow. These Frazers are only in the Frazer/Stinson Line. Then, there is the green group. They are in the Stinson Line but also in at least one other Frazer Line. There are some good matches where green and yellow intersect, notably with Jane. These are more likely to be Frazer/Stinson Line matches. Where the green intersects with green, it will be difficult to tell if the DNA is from the Frazer/Stinson Line or from another line. The names in white are from my family. I recently had my sister Lori tested. Now there are 5 siblings tested in my family. Paul is a second cousin, once removed. Purple represents the James Line of the Frazers. There is a purple Jonathan and a white Jonathan. Scanning the yellow names from left to right, they match my family a bit more than the James Line Frazers in purple. There are a few exceptions where there are higher matches. This may be due to a match on a collateral line. Or this may be due to the effect that if a match is going to break through a distant relationship it can just as well break through as a somewhat larger match than as a smaller one.

Triangulation Groups

I like to use Triangulation Groups to sort out some of these families. A Triangulation Group points to a particular ancestor which should point to a particular Line of Frazers. The problem in this was alluded to above. That is, what if some Frazers are from more than one line? In order to somewhat get around this, I’ll make special note of the Frazers that are known to be only in the Frazer/Stinson Line. Namely, Rita, Cathy, Ros, Doug and Vivien.

Chromosome 1

In Chromosome 1, I see a Frazer/Stinson  Line Triangulation Group (TG). I previously had my brother Jon in that group, but that appears to have been a mistake:

Here is the what the TG likely looks like:

I say likely, as Jane and Michael also descend from the Richard Frazer Line. However, that would put the common ancestor as Archibald the father of this Archibald Frazer which would be a less likely match.

Chromosome 3

The next TG is also difficult to explain:

Here we have Michael and Rita, both in the Frazer/Stinson Line. They both match Prudence from the somewhat distant James Line of Frazers. I had to double check to find the match between Michael and Rita to finalize the TG. Here is a possible rendering of that TG:

I pulled Michael (pink box) off the Richard Line as he wasn’t put into the Frazer/Stinson Line on this chart to save room. This particular representation forces our attention to the parents of the James (on the right) and Archibald Lines (on the left above). However, a slightly later unknown common collateral line would also be possible. For example, Prudence has a Peyton ancestor. If Michael and Rita also had the father of Prudence’s Peyton ancestor as their ancestor, that would put the top circle one level down. The TG is sure. The interpretation of who the TG represents is not as sure due to holes in the genealogy near the top of the chart.

Chromosome 4

Here is a new TG with Jane, Cathy and Rita:

This TG is important because it is most certainly a Frazer/Stinson Line TG. I had to take down the Gedmatch levels to get the match between Jane and Cathy. If I were to map out the Frazer side grandparents for Rita, Cathy and Jane, they might look something like this:

As you compare Cathy and Jane’s green sections with each other, you can see that the Frazer overlap is relatively small.

Chromosome 5

In Chromosome 5, there is a similar situation with Pat, Cathy and Jane:

Again, I had from my Gedmatch download that Cathy matched Patricia and Cathy matched Jane. What was missing was the Cathy to Jane match. I lowered the Gedmatch thresholds and found a Cathy to Jane match right in the expected area between 73 and 76. Note that the Patricia to Cathy match ended at about 77M. The Jane and Cathy match started about 73.

73 is the crossover for Jane from McBride to Frazer. It is the number that Jane has in common with both her matches. Likewise, Patricia’s crossover from her Frazer grandparent to her Gray grandparent is at 77M. It is the number that she has in common with both her matches. So that tells me something is going on there (i.e. a crossover). The area between 73 and 77 is where Patricia and Jane match.

In reviewing my past work, I see that I had shown a TG with Gladys, Pat and Cathy in this area. To see that, I need to go further up my spreadsheet:

So let’s map out Gladys’ DNA from her grandparents. It looks like her match with Cathy and Patricia tell me that she has Frazer DNA from 54M to 134M. But where is her match with Jane? When I run a one to one match at Gedmatch between Gladys and Jane, I get this:

5 73,514,449 76,680,718 5.3 842

With this information, I’ll draw a revised Chromosome 5 Map:

It was a little tricky to draw this map. I think that what happened was that Patricia and Gladys share the common ancestors: George Frazer and Susannah Price. Notice that Patricia and Gladys have a large match. I think that match is picking up the older crossover in Patricia of George Frazer and Susannah Price at position 77M. Well, you can see I’m still working these things out!

Chromosome 9

Here is a new Frazer/Stinson TG at the end of Chromosome 9:

In it, we have Doug, Rita and Patricia. Interestingly, Ros, Vivien, Gladys and Bill don’t appear to be in this TG. They seem to be busy being related to each other on their non-Frazer sides.

Anything Else, Summary, Conclusions?

  • I found it interesting that Rita matched Prudence. Rita’s match with Prudence was a little larger than any found so far and Rita and Prudence are on the two most distant Frazer Lines of Archibald and James.
  • It is interesting to look at the autosomal matrix for the Frazers as the higher number indicate family groupings. Overlaps in the families where Frazer cousins married cause even higher cMs in the matches.
  • A focus on the Frazer/Stinson TGs helped shore up that line of the Frazers. In cases where a TG could be from one line or the other, the addition of a Frazer/Stinson only Line tester gave more evidence that those TGs were more clearly in the Frazer/Stinson Line.
  • I did some Chromosome mapping based on the TGs. The TGs gave clear indications of crossovers. However, it was not always clear as to which generation we were mapping to as far as specific ancestors.
  • Here is an update of the Frazer TG Matrix:

More Frazer/McPartland DNA and the Mush Move

Since my last post on the Frazer/McPartland connection, one of the McPartland descendants, Charlene, has uploaded her DNA to Gedmatch. Basically, the McPartlands have in their genealogy that they had a Frazer ancestor. This Frazer ancestor is thought to be related to the Frazers that lived in North Roscommon, Ireland. This relationship has been made more sure by the fact that the McPartlands lived near the Frazers and that McPartlands and Frazers have matching DNA.

Here are some of the McPartlands:

I am focusing on the green part as those are the ones that have had their DNA tested and uploaded the results to Gedmatch. The McPartland/Frazer connection is seen at the top where Owen McPartland married Ann Frazer. From this chart, we can also see that Charlene is a 3rd cousin to Karen and Chris.

Charlene’s X Chromosome

When I look at Charlene’s X matches at Gedmatch, I see something very interesting. Her top match is to my sister Heidi:

And here is how Charlene matches her 3rd cousin, Karen:

Notice how close these two matches are. Just to close the loop, here is the huge X match between Heidi and Karen:

The above comparison shows an X triangulation. This, to me, is proof that the three are related.

Here is a possible Frazer McPartland tree which could explain the above X matches:

For this to work well, the Frazer at the top would most likely have two wives. Margaret would have been born from the first wife and from the second wife. The other solution would be to have another generation between Ann and the top Frazer. However, that also introduces problems as the X Chromosome does not travel from father to son. That scenario would require Ann Frazer’s mother to be a Frazer which would mean Ann’s father would also be a Frazer.

Here is a late breaking update on Ann Frazer from a McPartland researcher:

Hi Joel,
Ann was born between 1818 and 1823 (1901 census age 78, and her death registration, also 1901, age 85).
The 1823 date seems likelier, since her last child was born in 1866, and she might well have personally given her age to the census taker, while with the death registration, we’re depending on her son John, with whom she lived, to give the correct date.
All the best,
Sandy
This is good news as it would now not require the Frazer at the top of the tree to have had two wives. If the top Frazer’s wife was born in 1780, she could have had Margaret around 1800 when she was 20 and Ann in 1823 when she was 43. I could narrow that down even a bit further. She could have been born in 1783, had Margaret in 1803 when she was 20 and Ann in 1823 when she was 40.

Who Is the Unknown Frazer? By James Line Genealogy

One way to look at this is through the existing Frazer genealogy. There is the Archibald Line and the James Line. My past assumption has been that this unknown Frazer is in the James Line. But what James Line Frazer would fit the bill? If our genealogy is right, then the sons of James were born to soon to fit the bill of someone born around 1780
JAMES1 FRAZER was born circa 1717 at Aghrafinigan, Ardcarne, Roscommon. He married Katherine Fitzgerald in 1745.
He was a farmer.
Children of James1 Frazer and Katherine Fitzgerald were as follows:

  •       i.   (–?–)2 was born circa 1746.
  •       ii.   ELIZABETH was born circa 1748. She married William Knott.
  •     2.  iii.   ARCHIBALD was born circa 1751. He married Catherine Peyton, daughter of John Peyton and Hannah Wynne, in 1780. He was buried on 13 Aug 1835 at Ardcarne.
  •       iv.   PATRICK was born circa 1755 at Aghrafinigan, Ardcarne, Roscommon. He died in 1831 at Aghnasurn.
  •     3.  v.   MICHAEL was born circa 1764. He married Margaret (–?–). He died on 17 Mar 1837 at Ardcarne.

The children of the above were born too late. The only one who could have fit the bill is John Peyton, son of Archiald But he doesn’t have known Frazer descendants:

JOHN PEYTON3 FRAZER (Archibald2, James1) was born circa 1781. He married Frances Carlton. He died on 22 Nov 1865; aged 84.
Children of John Peyton3 Frazer and Frances Carlton both born at Ardcarne Parish Church, Roscommon, were as follows:

  •       i.   FRANCIS CARLTON4 was baptized on 10 Jun 1824.
  •       ii.   KATHERINE PEYTON was baptized on 20 Dec 1829. She married David Burns, son of Stephen Burns, on 8 Oct 1849.

The Unknown Frazer By Archibald Line Genealogy

By genealogy, it appears that the Archibald Line has more potential for our mysterious link between the Frazers and McPartlands.

Our genealogy has these four Archibald Line brothers born around 1780. That could put any of them as potential candidate to be Ann and/or Margaret’s father.

A Little McPartland Genealogy

Here is the 27 October 1860 Baptismal record that Joanna (a Frazer researcher) found in the Aghanah Catholic Parish record:

This is a record of the birth of Cath. Janam (Jane) [Mc]Partland daughter of Eugene and Ann Frazer. It appears that a Patrick Partland and a Healy were there and that the family lived in Annagh. Annagh is a very popular place name in Ireland. However, the closest Annagh to Dereenagan appears to be here on the shores of Lough Key:

Annagh is in the lower left of the map above. This is a bit confusing as one branch of the Frazer family had an Annagh House (or Lodge) in the Townland of Aughnacloy in County Sligo. To further confuse things, an Ireland Townlands website has Annagh further to the East and North:

It looks like my first choice may have been the better one. Here is a Roman Catholic Parish map of Ballinafad which historically was Aghanagh. This map was taken from the Leitrim-Roscommon Genealogy web page.

Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was another explanation! It gets confusing with overlapping parishes. I think that the Civil Parishes are equivalent to the Church of Ireland Parishes. The NLI website has Aughanagh Parish in County Sligo.

Back to the DNA

Above, I established that Heidi, Charlene and Karen all matched on the X Chromosome. It looks like my sister Sharon also matches. Here is how Charlene matches Heidi, Karen, and Sharon on the X Chromosome:

Back to Autosomal dna

Charlene matches Karen autosomally. They are known 3rd cousins. Charlene and Heidi don’t match autosomally. Charlene and my sister Sharon do match on Chromosome 9 from position 22-36M:

Here is Sharon’s Chromosome 9 map showing why she matches Charlene and Heidi and I don’t:

Lighter red is Frazer DNA. Sharon got a full load of that on her Chromosome 9. Heidi and I got nearly all Hartley DNA (darker red) on this Chromosome.

triangulation groups

With the McPartland/Frazer matches, I would like to focus on triangulation groups as they have a good chance of indicating a common ancestor.

Here are Charlene’s matches with my cousin Paul and my sister Sharon on Chromosome 9:

According to my last Blog, Karen and Chris also had matches in the same area. This indicates a common ancestor:

I have the Frazer at the top with a question mark as we are not sure which Frazer this is. It is quite likely to be a correct scenario. I base that on the combination of X Pattern matches and the triangulation. Although the match shows with Heidi, the actual match in this case was with my sister Sharon. Also note that Paul had no X match as he has two male Frazers above him and X does not travel from male to male.

The prudence triangulation group (TG)

Here Charlene matches Prudence, Chris and Karen:

#4 is Betty who is a cousin of Joanna’s family. From my last Blog, Prudence also matched Karen and Chris to complete the triangle. Here is Prudence’s tree.

How can we fit the McPartlands in here? Prudence is on the James line. Earlier in the Blog, I had mentioned John Peyton Frazer as a not likely person of interest. I’ll re-consider him here:

What if John had two other daughters: Margaret and Ann? They would fit in. The problem with this is that I have a baptism of and Ann and a Hannah already in 1823 that may fit the bill. They were born to an Archibald and a James Frazer respectively. There are many possibilities. One would be that the match is through the Peyton side.

The Anne above had a White mother. Perhaps Catherine Peyton had a sister than married a White and had Anne? What if the James above was an unknown James Line descendant? He would fit the bill also.

Here is the simple portrayal of my first scenario:

Here I just mushed the two trees together where this could be seen. In this scenario, The Frazer on the McPartland part would be John Peyton Frazer (or perhaps the James that I know little about). That would make Prudence, Charlene, Karen and Chris 4th cousins, once removed. Under this scenario, Paul and my family fall out from DNA matching as we are a generation or two below the McPartlands.

Joanna’s TG – Chromosome 15

This figure shows Charlene’s matches with Joanna and her sister Janet. After that is Joanna’s cousin Betty. Finally is my cousin Paul. The green section is not a TG as Janet and her sister only count as one in a TG. The yellow section is a TG. Paul does not appear to be in the TG. Is this showing us that Paul’s match with Charlene is on a different line than Joanna’s TG?

Time for my two family mush move (again for illustration purposes only):

This would be a scenario similar to the Prudence TG above (except I forgot to add the ?????). In this scenario the relationship would be 3rd cousin twice removed. This is slightly closer than the 4th cousin once removed Prudence TG scenario.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The addition of Charlene’s McPartland/Frazer DNA to gedmatch has resulted in some interesting comparisons
  • The X match between the McPartlands and my family gives a strong indication of a match along the Frazer line.
  • This X match has also been backed up by a four way Triangulation group between two McPartland families and two Frazer families (my family and my cousin Paul)
  • I used a new (to me) technique called the mush move. This is where in a TG I mush the two trees together.
  • Even thought the connection was not proven, it gives an indication of where the connection likely is.
  • In the comparison between the Prudence TG and the Joanna TG, it shows that Joanna’s higher level of DNA matches are the result of a likely closer relationship with the McPartlands.
  • The mush move technique is helpful in seeing possible links between families as well as possible problems of links between families.
  • In the beginning of the Blog, I was favoring an Archibald link between the McPartlands and the Frazers. At the end of the Blog, I was favoring the James Line. It seems like the existing paper genealogy favors Archibald Line and that the DNA seems to favor a James Line connection. One possible way to reconcile the two would be to have James (wife of Margaret) be the missing James Line Frazer. In that scenario James’ eldest daughter Margaret (my ancestor) would have been named after her mother which would have been traditional.
  • Perhaps more research will bring something to light concerning James Frazer who married Margaret and had Hannah in 1823.

The Frazer/McPartland Connection: Genealogy and DNA

It all started around 1850 in Ireland when Owen McPartland married Ann Frazer. Owen (or Eugene in the Latin) was Roman Catholic. Ann was from a traditionally Church of Ireland Frazer family. Perhaps this caused waves. Perhaps Owen and Ann had to go out of the area to marry. At any rate, this couple produced offspring and we have the DNA and genealogy to prove it today.

Frazer/McPartland Genealogy

I’ll start in 1901.

This enumeration is for the small Townland of Derreenagan in the North of Roscommon. By this time Owen McPartland has died and left his wife Annie with her son John and their young family. Annie is said to be 78 at the time, so we suppose that she was born in 1823.

Who were the parents of Annie Frazer?

This is a common question that genealogists are always asking. I have two candidates:

This is from a compilation of vital records from Michael of the Frazer study group. These two Frazer girls were born very close in time to each other. I don’t know much about James and Margaret. Richard Frazer born around 1777 was believed to have a son – probably the eldest – named James. Then the Archibald I have above was probably the son of John Frazer born around 1775. Both these families were from the Archibald Line of the Frazers.

Derreenagan

Here is a map of Derreenagan -where the  McPartlands lived:

Derreenagan was in the historical Frazer area. Frazers lived in the surrounding Townlands of Derrycahel, Derreentunny, Shanvoley, Cleragh and Aghrafinigan.

Griffith’s valuation

This Valuation published about 1858 for Derreenagan is important due to the lack of an Irish Census for that time period.

Here we see Edward Frazer as the major occupant. Next to him is Patrick Partland who I take to be a McPartland. William Frazer was the only lease holder for this Townland. He and Edward Frazer were likely brothers from the James line of the Frazer family.

Here is the Griffith’s Valuation Map showing Derreenagan:

Alexander Frazer lived in Shanvoley. Edward Frazer should have the largest house in Derreenagan based on his assessment. I’m not sure where Patrick Partland lived.

McPartland genealogy: Shuffle off to buffalo

One of our Frazer researchers, Joanna, writes:

I have found a couple of baptismal records in Aghanagh Parish (Catholic records) Ballinafad Co Sligo – for Catherine Jane bap 27 Oct 1860 parents Eugene McPartland and Anna Frazer.  Eugene is apparently Latin for Owen.  Also a John McPartland – same church bap 23 Feb 1866 parents Eugene McPartland and Elizabeth Frazer – either she was Anna Elizabeth or there was another marriage to another Frazer in the meantime. 

A review of Ancestry Trees shows:

  • Mary Ann a daughter of Eugene and Ann may have died in Buffalo, New York
  • John McPartland (above b. 1866) had sons James and Patrick who died in the Buffalo. [I have mentioned a Patrick and a James above. Could these be hints for the parents of Owen and Ann?]
  • John had another son Eugene who died in San Francisco
  • Catherine Jane (Jennie) McPartland is the daughter of Owen. Her great granddaughter matches Joanna of the Frazer DNA Study group. Jennie also lived in Buffalo.

Here is a McPartland partial family tree:

The two on the bottom left have taken DNA tests. I didn’t follow the tree down on the right as I don’t believe that this line has tested for DNA. The bottom two McPartland/Frazer descendants are 3rd cousins to each other.

Now, the Frazer/McPartland DNA

I have previously blogged about the X match my two sisters have with Karen. Karen descends from the Maryann McPartland Branch of the family. Karen matches my two sisters by more X Chromosome DNA than her own brother. However, there is a reason for that. Karen’s brother Chris gets no X Chromosome from his dad Walter – only a Y. The match that Frazer descendants have with Karen is through Walter. Karen’s X Chromosome that she got from her father is the entire X Chromosome that he got from his mother Agnes. That helps to explain the large X Chromosome match between Karen and my sisters.

Above are Karen’s X-DNA matches with her mother, my sisters Heidi and Sharon and her brother Chris.

Here is the route of Karen’s X-DNA:

The red arrow indicates that Karen’s DNA from Walter is the same he received from Agnes.

Here is a possible way Heidi and Sharon got their X-DNA from the Frazer side:

Note that the route is a bit longer. Also it goes from Frazer to McMaster and back to Frazer again. Imagine that Margaret Frazer (circled in the bottom right of the image above) had a brother who had Ann Frazer. This could account for the X-DNA match between Frazer and McPartland. Another interesting thing is that Sharon got one X Chromosome from her dad which is the same that he got from his mother. Let’s take it one step further. My grandmother also got an X DNA from her dad which is the same X-DNA that he got from his mother. That should mean that my sister Sharon has a chance to get a large chunk of X-DNA from her 2nd great grandmother Margaret McMaster – which is apparently what happened.

Non-X, Autosomal DNA matches

Here are some of the other matches between the McPartlands and the Frazers:

Jonathan is Joanna’s brother. He is in a small Triangulation Group with Chris and his 2nd cousin Betty – a Frazer descendant. A Triangulation Group (TG) is a sure way of knowing that those in the group have a shared ancestor. However figuring out who that common ancestor is can be difficult.

In the blue area above, there are small matches between Karen and Chris on the McPartland side and Jane, Melissa, Charlotte and Judith in the Frazer DNA Study Group. Charlotte also has an X match along with Sharon, Heidi and Karen, tying the four of them together. It should be noted that some of these common matches may not be Frazers, but spouses of Frazers.

In the green is a larger TG between Karen, Paul and Sharon. Paul is Sharon’s second cousin once removed. That means that Sharon’s second great grandparents are the same as Paul’s 1st great grandparents: George Frazer and Margaret McMaster.

Finally, we see some good matches between Karen, Chris, and Prudence. Prudence descends from Edward Frazer who is believed to have lived in Derreenagan. OK, what was going on in Derreenagan in the 1800’s?

Here is part of the James Line working tree for the Frazer DNA Project:

This is quite a busy chart. Charlotte and Madeline both have X matches to Karen. Edward Frazer who lived in Derreenagan is circled above Prudence. Most of these circles go up to Archibald Frazer b. 1751. I’m not sure how Judith fits in. Probably through James Frazer at the top or a Frazer spouse’s Line.

I don’t have Jane on this Chart as she is on the Archibald Line – a different chart. I’m not sure how Melissa fits in. I had a note that she may be related to Margaret Frazer.

So, Where Are We?

The above genealogy and DNA have given a lot of food for thought:

  • My genealogy summary left me looking at two sets of parents for Ann Frazer that appear to be on the Archibald Line of the Frazers
  • The DNA matches seem to favor the James Line of the Frazers (Jonathan, Joanna, Betty, Charlotte, Madeline, Judith and Prudence)
  • If the match is through a collateral Frazer spouse, then that could account for both lines. Unfortunately, many of the Frazer spouses names are missing
  • The largish match between Prudence and McPartand descendants Karen and Chris looks suspicious given that Prudence’s ancestor probably lived next to the McPartlands.
  • Further, there was a Patrick Partland in Derreenagan. He could be the father of Owen/Eugene McPartland.

 

Solving Joanna’s Mystery DNA Match with Visual Mapping

Recently I had a question from Joanna, who is part of a Frazer DNA Project that I’m working on. She has a large mystery match and would like to know which side of the family the match is on. Joanna is also interested in having her chromosomes mapped using Visual Phasing. Visual Phasing is a method that Kathy Johnston has pioneered using the DNA results of at least 3 siblings. Blaine Bettinger has also written a 5 part series on this subject.  Perhaps the mapping could help her find out what side of her family this mystery match is on.

Joanna’s Mystery DNA Connection with Mystery Vickey

Joanna’s siblings are Janet and Jonathan. I will check Gedmatch.com to see how the three siblings match up with Vickey.

vickeytojoanna

On Vickey’s One to Many list, I saw Joanna and Janet, but not Jonathan. You can see why Joanna is interested as her match with Vickey is 55 cM. I didn’t want to leave out Jonathan, so I ran a One to One between him and Vickey at Gedmatch;

vickeyjonathan

Jonathan does match Vickey, but he just fell off the bottom of Vickey’s One to Many List. The start of Jonathan’s match is at the start of Joanna’s orange bar above. His match with Vickey ends before his sister Janet’s match with Vickey starts. Now, in Joanna’s family we have a small, medium and large match with Mystery Vickey.

Visual Mapping of Joanna, Janet and Jonathan

As all the above matches are on Chromosome 13, it would make sense to start there. The first step is to compare the 3 siblings in the Gedmatch Chromosome Browser:

chromosomebrowserjjj

I then added crossover lines and attempted to assign the right sibling or siblings to the right crossover. This Chromosome was not simple. It looks like there are or could be close crossovers in three different places – around position 29, 33 and 98. In addition, something strange seems to be going on at the 72/73/74 location. That leaves only 2 crossovers which appear to be less than complicated. Those are: the first crossover which I have given to Jonathan and; the crossover at 62 which I gave to Janet.

Mapping the JJJ siblings

From 33 to about 73, Joanna and Jonathan have a Fully Identical Region (FIR). That means in that area, Joanna and Jonathan got their DNA from two of the same grandparents. One of those grandparents was on their Paternal side and one on the Maternal side.

chr13jjjfir

Above I’ve portrayed Joanna and Jonathan’s shared grandparents as blue and red. The next step is extending the blue and red bars. I’ll keep Jonathan’s two grandparents where they are as he has crossovers on either side. However, I’ll extend Joanna’s DNA from her 2 grandparents to the right. Should I extend them to 98 or to the end?

A single or double crossover at 98?

The simplest scenario at Position 98 would be a crossover assigned to Joanna. Joanna is the common factor in the first two comparisons, so that would make sense. In that scenario, neither Janet nor Jonathan would have crossovers at 98. However, that does not appear to go along with what we know. Recall above that I looked at Vickey’s match with Joanna and Janet:

vickeytojoanna

Why isn’t Janet matching Vickey for 55 cM as Joanna is? Something happened around Position 97. That something has to be a crossover for Janet. That sets a few things in motion. Now that we know Janet has a crossover, that means that Jonathan also has a crossover there. Our two options at 98 were either a single crossover for Joanna or a double crossover including Janet and Jonathan. My conclusion:

  • Janet has a crossover at 98
  • Jonathan also has a crossover at 98
  • Joanna does not have a crossover at 98

The immediate result is that I can send Joanna’s DNA over to the right side of the page:

joannamap

In the next step, I want to take advantage of the Joanna to Janet FIR and the places where siblings don’t match at all. This is where there is red in the Browser and no blue bar below. In these areas I will use two different colors.

firhir

The Irony of Vickey’s match

Next, I’d like to use Vickey’s match with Joanna and Janet set the crossover at position 98. We will now pick a ‘side’ to the colors. We will say that Vickey is a red match. In the area between 62 and 98 Joanna and Janet are in a Half Identical Region (HIR). That means that they have one grandparent in common our their four. The irony is that we are mapping this Chromosome to find out where Vickey fits in. Yet we are first using Vickey’s match to map the Chromosome.

vickeyonmap

Here I have added in Vickey’s matches with Joanna, Janet and Jonathan. Note that Janet’s match with Vickey starts right near her crossover. Before that, Janet matched another of her four grandparents (shown in yellow). Also Jonathan’s match with Vickey ends right by his crossover where he received his DNA from another grandparent (the same yellow). Now we have Joanna and her two siblings’ Chromosome 13 roughly mapped out. We have relative positions for their four grandparents. Can we now find out which of Joanna’s grandparents the Mystery Vickey is related to?

Finding Which of Joanna’s Grandparents Matches Vickey

In January, 2016, I wrote a blog about Joanna and her Chromosome 15. Here are the results I came up with (after I went back and corrected a mistake I found):

chr15frazermaprev

I show this to indicate the possible grandparents that Vickey could be related to. Chromosome 15 was also a much easier Chromosome to analyze. There were only three crossovers for Joanna and her siblings on Chromosome 15. The 90-97 area was where Joanna matched a Williams relative. From 67-92, Joanna and Janet matched Frazer relatives.

For Chromosome 13, however, the [maternal] Williams relative did not match with Joanna, Janet and Jonathan. So it will not be possible to make determinations on Joanna’s maternal side. There were, however matches on the Frazer side. Betty has not uploaded her results to Gedmatch, but she is on FTDNA which has a browser and gives Chromosome match locations.  Betty is our last chance to at least identify the paternal part of Joanna and her siblings’ Chromosome 13.  Fortunately, Betty matches Joanna twice and Jonathan once:

bettychr13

Now all I have to do is see where Betty’s DNA would fit on our Chromosome 13 Map.

chr13mapbetty

It looks like Betty has shown that Vickey is related somewhere along the line of Frazer – or more specifically Edward Frazer born in 1867. Here are a few notes on what I did:

  • I extended Jonathan’s Seymour DNA to the right as he had no Frazer match there where his two sisters did. They both matched Vickey. Then I added a blue segment above Jonathan’s yellow segment as Jonathan has a HIR with his two sisters at the end of Chromosome 13.
  • Question: Why didn’t I match Betty to the blue maternal side of the Chromosome? There is room for her DNA there also.
  • Answer: Imagine that I moved all the Betty matches up to the blue segments. That would leave a problem for Janet. In that scenario Joanna would have a blue match and Janet would also have to have the same blue match, but Janet didn’t match Betty from 75-96. Janet also did not match Vickey from 63-107. So that alternative scenario does not work out.
  • For more distant relationships, one would not want to make deductions based on lack of matches. However, with siblings there has to be an explanation as to why one sibling would have a match and the other would not based on the visual mapping.

Edward Frazer is wearing a top hat at the bottom right. In our Chromosome 13 Map, his DNA is shown as red and his Seymour wife as yellow.

frazer1867

The fact that Vickey matches on this Frazer line doesn’t mean that Vickey has to have Frazer ancestors. It just means that she and Edward Frazer must have a common ancestor. That common ancestor may be along the Palmer line, for example (Edward Frazer’s mother’s Line).

Betty to the rescue again

Let’s use Betty’s results to fill in the rest of Joanna’s family’s Chromosome 13:

chr13joannafinished

  • Note that Betty matches Joanna from 29-43 and Jonathan from 33-43. That tells me that Jonathan has a paternal crossover at 33. Because Joanna doesn’t have a paternal crossover at 33, that means she has a maternal crossover there. The rest I fill in using the FIR and HIR regions.
  • The smaller segments at the beginning of the Chromosome correspond with all the crossovers at the beginning of the Chromosome. There are 5 crossovers up to position 33. In Chromosome 15 that I mention earlier in the blog, there were 3 crossovers for the whole Chromosome. After position 33 on Chromosome 13, there are fewer, more spaced out crossovers which account for the larger segments of inherited grandparent DNA.

Summary and Conclusions

  • Visual Mapping can be fun and helpful in finding out where mystery matches come from
  • Without the help of Joanna’s 2nd cousin Betty, we would not have a complete map. We would also not be able to know which grandparent Vickey was related to.
  • If Betty’s results were only at AncestryDNA, we would not be able to do this analysis as AncestryDNA does not give detailed information on DNA matches. The fact that she tested at FTDNA helped us come to these conclusions, even though her results were not uploaded to Gedmatch.com
  • Joanna may know of more test results with known relatives that could help fill out the maternal side of Chromosome 13 or we may find out more in the future.

 

 

 

A New Tested Frazer Descendant: My Brother

My last Blog on Frazer DNA had to do with a newly tested James Line person – Madeline. My brother is on the Archibald Line of our Roscommon, Ireland Frazer Study Group. I had brought a DNA kit to my Hartley Family Reunion at the beginning of August, thinking to get a sample from one of my dad’s cousins. I didn’t end up doing that. So, later, I asked my brother if he would take the test. He did and the results are in.

Missing Frazer Segments from the Hartley Family

M MacNeill – prairielad_genealogy@hotmail.com has been mapping Chromosomes based on my family’s raw DNA data. That has shown that, on some chromosomes, even with 3 tested siblings, there is some Frazer DNA missing. Here is Chromosome 3, for example:

chr3-macneill-map

The bottom 3 lines are my DNA and my 3 sisters. The lighter red is Frazer and the darker red is Hartley DNA. In the middle part of the Chromosome, my 2 sisters and I only inherited Hartley DNA. That means that there is some Frazer DNA missing. My father’s DNA is on the top line. The cross hatch area shows the Frazer DNA that he is missing there because by chance his 3 children below didn’t inherit any in that area. My brother Jon may not help fill in this particular gap, but he may fill in some of the gaps.

Looking for new Frazer DNA from jon

What I did was look at Jon’s top matches. Then I ran those top matches through the One to Many Utility at gedmatch.com. From there I looked at Jon’s match’s matches to see if Jon came up by himself. That would be the new Frazer DNA. Jon’s top Frazer match is our second cousin, once removed Paul. I didn’t see any obvious new DNA with that comparison. Jon’s 2nd or 3rd top Frazer DNA project person is Michael. When I go to Michael’s match list, Jon comes up as Michael’s top DNA match. That is a good sign. Here is Michael’s Chromosome Browser matches for Chromosome 2:

michael-jon-chr-2

Here Jon is #1.

It is not a large match, but the key here is that it is by itself. That makes it new as my 2 sisters and I don’t match Michael at that spot.

Phasing Brother Jon

Seeing the match above, it reminds me that I need to Phase Jon by Gedmatch. That means that gedmatch takes my brother’s results and splits them into the DNA it thinks Jon got from my mom and the DNA it thinks that he got from my dad based on my mom’s results. Before I do that, however, I uploaded my mom’s AncestryDNA results to Gedmatch.com. Her FTDNA results are already there. This is why I also uploaded her AncestryDNA results. The chart below shows the results you get when you compare one company’s DNA results to another’s or even a different version of one company’s results to another version of that company’s results.

ancestrydna-compared

Jon’s new results are Anc2 results. That means that now Ancestry is testing different areas of the Chromosomes. However, it looks like I didn’t need my mom’s AncestryDNA results after all. Comparing Jon’s Anc2 results with my mom’s FTDNA results still gives me more SNPs (426,923) than comparing Jon’s Anc2 to Anc1 (424,150). Now I’ll have to mark my mom’s Ancestry kit as research only at Gedmatch as it is not good to have 2 results for one person there.

Now Jon has 2 phased kits (maternal and paternal). My little side trip was to check Jon’s Paternal Phased Kit with Michael. Here are the results:

jon-michael-paternal

Next I run Jon’s maternally phased results with Michael:

jon-michael-maternal

They have a borderline maternal match. That means that Michael matches Jon on his maternal side as well as Jon’s paternal side. How can this be? The answer is that they probably have a very distant match or match in the general population. My mom is German,  but about 1/4 English also. Michael lives in England. The key for this project is to disregard this Chromosome 7 Segment match as it is not likely a Frazer match.

Any more New Frazer project DNA for Jon?

Next on Jon’s list of Frazer DNA Projects is Gladys. Here is Gladys’ chromosome 1 showing her matches with Jon and his siblings.

jon-gladys-chr1

Jon on Line #1 doesn’t have a new match here, but his match is longer. Numbers 2 and 3 are my sisters Sharon and Heidi. This is in an important part of Chromosome 1 where there are a lot of Triangulation Groups (TGs). It looks like Jon’s Frazer DNA got a bit less broken up compared to his sister Sharon’s match in the area from about 182-202M on Chromosome 1 above. Here is MacNeill’s Chromosme 1 map of Heidi (#3 above) and Sharon (#2 above):

macneill-chr1

Sharon’s (#2) small match is represented by the right end of the lighter blue bar above. Where the bar changes from red to dark red, Sharon’s DNA changes from Frazer to Hartley. What Gedmatch shows above is that when his DNA is mapped, the lighter red bar will go further to the right than Sharon’s red bar. Heidi’s (#3) small match is represented by the left side of her 2nd lighter red bar.

Jon and the Everyone Comparison

This next image will compare the matches Jon has with everyone in the Frazer Project. I left out those with parents that have tested.

jon-with-everyone

This is like when you order the Everything Pizza. The square in the top left left has the Archibald Line matches. The square in the bottom right has the matches of the James Line of the Frazer DNA Project. People with green matches should know each other already. My brother Jon from the Archibald Line matches Jonathan of the James Line. This seems appropriate as Jon’s middle name is Frazer.

More Detail: GEDmatch Matching Segment CSV

For the same people that I chose for the comparison above, I wanted more segment detail, so I chose an option called Gedmatch Matching Segment. This puts all the matching segments between all the people above into an Excel spreadsheet. While looking at those segment matches, I found a new TG that Jon was in.

New Chromosome 9 TG with Jon

Here is my Frazer DNA spreadsheet:

chr-9-tg

The first line is for 2 close relatives in the James Line, so the match may not be on a Frazer line.

Can you see the TG? It is difficult to see. The TG is between Pat (PB), Gladys and Jon. It is confusing as there is a lot going on there. Here is what Gladys’ Chromosome Browser matches looks like for her Chromosome 9:

gladys-chr-9-matches

Where the lines represent Gladys’ matches with:

  1. Bill
  2. Pat
  3. Jon
  4. Sharon

But remember I said above that the TG was with Gladys Pat and Jon. How did Bill get in there? Note that Jon matches Pat at 8.8 cM. Perhaps Jon and Bill match below thresholds. I lowered the thresholds at Gedmatch to see if Jon and Bill would match, but still no match. Perhaps there is another explanation.

First the TG we do have. And it is a beautiful thing.

gladys-pat-jon-tg-circle-line

Pat, Gladys and Jon had a double shot at being in a Frazer TG as they have Violet as an ancestor and James, believed to be her 1st cousin. We may not know which Frazer the TG is for, but we know that it is a Frazer TG.

Why isn’t bill in this TG?

Yes, why not? Here’s my guess. As you likely know, we carry a set of chromosomes from our Mom and another set from our Dad. Gladys, above, had a set of Frazer Chromosomes and Webber Chromosomes. Perhaps the match Gladys showed with Bill was a Webber match. There is a way to test this theory. Bill also does not match Pat in the area of the TG that we are looking at. In my spreadsheet above, Bill has a few matches with Pat but they are in different regions. Bill may be matching Pat on the Price Line. Note that Pat and Bill share a Price ancestor.

Another Question: Why isn’t my sister Sharon in this tg?

The answer to this question is easy. She should have been in this TG all along. In my spreadsheet I have that Pat and Sharon match at 8.4 cM. I missed the larger match between Sharon and Gladys.

gladys-sharon-match

By the way, of my mapped siblings, Sharon has a lot of Frazer DNA in her Chromosome 9:

sharon-chr9

Sharon’s Unrecombined Frazer DNA

Thanks to the results of M MacNeill’s beautiful mapping work, Sharon’s  lighter red bar on the bottom of the image above is all Frazer DNA. That means her paternal chromosome #9 did not recombine. She has the same Frazer DNA in that Chromosome that her dad got from his Frazer mother. But how did Dad get his DNA from his mom? My guess is that the DNA my dad got from his mom did recombine. That means that grandma passed down a combination of her parents’ DNA. That would be her paternal Frazer DNA and her maternal Clarke DNA.  What I know for sure is the places where Sharon matches other Frazers would be the Frazer segment of my dad’s DNA. That would be at least the 85 to 100M range of Chromosome 9. So my dad’s (maternal) and Sharon’s (paternal) Chromosome 9 could have looked like this:

frazer-clarke-segment

That leads to my modified spreadsheet for Chromosome 9:

mod-chr9-spreadsheet

The gold is intended to stand for the TG leading to Violet and James Frazer. Note that a lot of changes happen around 85M on the spreadsheet. My guess was, and still is, that there was a change from Frazer to McMaster DNA at that spot for Paul and my family. Both Paul (PF) and my family descend from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. That would explain why other Frazers stop matching Paul and my siblings at that spot.

Hopefully, this image will explain it better. This is what Sharon’s and my dad’s Chromosome 9 could look like as it passed down to my dad. A generation earlier, in my grandmother’s DNA a McMaster probably recombined in there also.

mcmaster-dna

Basically:

  • Sharon should have gotten a chromosome from her dad’s mother and father recombined
  • However, At Chromosome 9, she only got her paternal grandmother’s DNA (Frazer) – so she got one long segment
  • My father’s Chromosome could have looked like the image I had with Clarke and Frazer that he got from his 2 paternal grandparents.
  • My grandmother got her paternal Chromosome 9 from George Frazer and Margaret McMaster. Her Paternal Chromosome likely had a break in it at position 85M where her DNA went from McMaster to Frazer. This carried down to Sharon. Her paternal Chromosome 9 wouldn’t have had Clarke as this was her mother. The Clarke DNA was on my grandmother’s Maternal Chromosome 9.

So in Summary:

  • Jon is in a previously undiscovered TG at Chromosome 9
  • The TG points to Violet and James Frazer
  • Sharon got her entire Chromosome from her dad un-recombined
  • My grandmother passed down her DNA to my dad probably recombined with some of my dad’s grandfather’s Frazer DNA and Grandmother’s Clarke DNA
  • There is a stop in my family’s Frazer matches right at the point where there is a start in a match with my Frazer 2nd cousin once removed (location 85M). That leads me to believe that this is the spot where our match goes from 2nd great grandfather Frazer to our shared 2nd great grandmother McMaster.
  • Sometimes when working on a family DNA project such as this Frazer one, it is possible to find non-Frazer ancestor’s DNA.
  • Chromosome mapping is a big help in visualizing which ancestor likely contributed DNA to which descendant.

Bonus Feature: Archibald and James Line Frazer TG Update

tg-summary-frazer-sep16

I hope that I got this right. At least it should be generally correct.

  • There were a lot of new TGs that I noted in my previous Blog on the James Line side that I updated in lavender.
  • A preliminary observation is that Joanna and her family seem to favor Charlotte, Madeline and Mary more than Judith, Bonnie and Beverly.
  • This shows that all in our Frazer DNA Group except for one is in a TG. That is pretty exceptional.
  • There are 24 in the TGs. Each of these people averages about 4 Frazer TGs
  • I was an underachiever, as I’m only in one TG
  • The number of times one is in a TG is likely subject to many things including:
    • Random DNA inheritance
    • Distance you are to the common ancestor – the closer you are, the more likely you are to have a match
    • endogamy. Some groups have 2 or 3 Frazers in their ancestry. The Price group have 3 Frazers in their ancestry and the most TGs. Each Frazer/Price descendant is in almost 15 TGs each, though 5 of those are likely Price only TGs
    • number of descendants your common ancestor had. This will increase the odds of a TG as there are more descendants to triangulate
  • The 5 likely non-Frazer TGs are in a raspberry color and are likely Price TGs.
  • I have a note that the yellow TG could be for either Violet or James Frazer. I am leaning toward James as Violet descends from Richard Frazer as does Michael and Michael is not in this TG. James is believed to be the son of Philip b. around 1776 who was a brother of Richard b. around 1777.

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, Triangulation Groups for the James Frazer Line of Roscommon County, Ireland

Recently, Kathy from the James Line of our Frazer DNA Project notified me that her Aunt Madeline had been tested for DNA and would I look at the results? I will take a look at the results in this Blog. Here is where Madeline fits in on the James Line Tree. She is on the second row from the bottom and the 3rd box from the left.

New James Line Chart

Above, the James Line Descendants that tested their DNA are in red. So now there are 14 people that have tested. There is one person below Clyde on the bottom left that I don’t show. I don’t analyze the children of people that have tested their DNA because they got all their DNA from their parents. Betty hasn’t uploaded her results to Gematch.  As a result, I am comparing 11 people to each other on the James Line.

Let’s Triangulate

First, I’ll say that I won’t bother triangulating Charlotte, Madeline and Mary. That triangulation would only point to the parents of Charlotte and Madeline and they already know who their parent are. Plus one of their parents is not a Frazer.

Chromosome 2

Here are the matches that Madeline has on Chromosome 2:Mad Chr2

Madeline’s sister Charlotte is #1 in red. Notice a large match. Madeline’s niece Mary is #2. As expected, the matches are smaller and more broken up, but still fairly large. #3 is my 2nd cousin, Paul. He is actually on the Archibald line, but I believe that he and I have some James Line ancestors that haven’t been identified. Paul has a very small pink match with Madeline and Charlotte and another fairly small blue match with Madeline, Charlotte, and Mary.

I won’t go down to the pink level at this time but will look at Paul’s blue match. Even that is below the normal gedmatch.com threshold of 7 cM. In order for this to be a true triangulation group, Paul would also have to match Charlotte and Mary. And Charlotte and Mary would have to match each other. Paul’s blue match is at position 174 to 178M on the image above. We already know that Charlotte and Mary match each other in that region.

Chralotte and Mary match

Here are Paul’s matches with Charlotte:

Paul Charlotte Chr2

Note that on Chromosome 2 where we wanted him to match Charlotte (around 175M). he doesn’t. At least not down to 4 cM and 400 SNPs. This match does appear to be in Paul’s pink match area that we didn’t consider.

Just to make sure, I will see if Paul matches Mary.

Paul and Mary

Here there are no matches at Chromosome 2, so I would say there is not a triangulation group there and Paul’s match with Madeline was by chance. Let’s move on to another Chromosome.

chromosome 4

Mad Chr4

Again, the top 2 matches to Madeline are her sister Charlotte and her niece. #3 is Clydie (also known as Clyde). #4 is my sister Heidi, but we won’t consider that match right now. Here is how Cyldie matches Charlotte:

Clydie Charlotte

Unfortunately, there is no match on Chromosome 4. Again, there is no match between Clydie and Charlotte’s niece, so no triangulation at Chromosome 4:

Clydie and Mary

chromosome 5 – Two TGs

Mad Chr5

  1. Mary
  2. Charlotte
  3. Bonnie
  4. Judith
  5. Jane (from the Archibald Line. I’ll ignore this small match for now.)

Here is more TG potential with Bonnie and Judith, both of whom have a paper trail on the James Frazer Line. From previous testing, Charlotte and Bonnie match in the area of Chromosome 5 that we are interested in:

Mary Bonnie Match

Here we have our first James Line only TG. This means that Madeline, Charlotte and Bonnie all have a common ancestor. It would be tempting to think that this DNA comes from James Frazer:

New James Line Chart Bonnie TG

However, there are other possibilities. We don’t know the spouse of Archibald Frazer born around 1792. That could be area of the match. Alternatively, one of the genealogies could be wrong.

Next, let’s look at Judith’s small match. Here is where she matches Charlotte:

Charlotte Judith Match

Here is how our new Chromosome 5 TG could look:

Judith TG

Again, there are other possibilities. Note that Charlotte and Madeline are 5th cousins to Judith – assuming we have the chart right. Also, taken together, these 2 TGs infer a common ancestor between Charlotte, Madeline, Mary, Bonnie and Judith.

Chromosome 6

Mad Chr6

  1. Charlotte
  2. Mary
  3. Jonathan
  4. Janet

Here is the comparison between Jonathan and Charlotte:

Charlotte Jonathan

So this does not look promising for triangulating. I compared Mary and Jonathan – no match there either. As Jonathan and Janet are siblings, there should be no match between Janet and Charlotte or Janet and Mary.

Chromosome 7 – a non-James Line TG?

Chr7 TG

Above are Madeline’s matches with Charlotte, Mary and Bill from the Archibald Line. It appears that Madeline, Charlotte and Bill are in a small TG. Bill has a small match with Madeline right at the area that he needs to (from position 127 to 130M) in order to form a TG.

TG at Chromosome 10

Chr10 TG

Here are Madeline’s matches with her close relatives Mary and Charlotte, and her matches with her more distant relatives Jonathan and Janet. It looks like there should be a TG between Madeline, Mary, Jonathan and Janet.

Here I don’t even have to lower the Gedmatch thresholds for the match between Mary and Jonathan:

Mary and Jonathan

The match between Mary and Janet is slightly smaller at 9.0 cM. This is another case where Madeline has tipped the scales and resulted in another TG.

Chr10TG Chart

Chromosome 12

Chr12 TG

Above is the representation of Madeline’s matches with Mary, Charlotte and Prudence. Let’s look for a match between Charlotte and Prudence:

Prudence Charlotte

They do have a good match right where we need them to to form a TG. This is an important TG as it adds a new line:

TG12 TG Chart

On paper, Charlotte and Madeline are 4th cousins with Prudence. The Edward Frazer Line is well documented, so this supports the genealogy that links Charlotte and Madeline up through Archibald Frazer and Catherine Peyton.

Chromosome 15

Chr15

 

As usual, Madeline is matching with Charlotte and Mary. The next 2 blue segments represent Madeline matching siblings Jonathan and Joanna. If Joanna and Charlotte match, that will be one TG. They do:

Joanna and Charlotte

Now, we need to check if Jonathan matches Charlotte and Mary. He doesn’t match Charlotte on Chromosome 15:

Jonathan Charlotte

Chances are, he won’t match Mary here either. I checked and he didn’t. This is why it pays to check each connection. From the Chromosome Browser above, it looked like Jonathan could be in a TG, but only his sister Joanna was.

Joanna TG

Chromosomes 16-22 only have matches between Madeline, Charlotte and Mary.

The X Chromosome

The X Chromosome can be confusing as the male only inherits an X Chromosome from his mother. The female inherits and X from both parents. That means where there are 2 male Frazers in a line of inheritance, the X cannot represent a Frazer match. That is, unless there is intermarriage of the Frazers. Just to show I’m not afraid of being confused, here are Madeline’s matches on the X Chromosome:

X of Madeline

As above, I’ll ignore the small pink matches. The first 2 of Madeline’s matches are again Charlotte and Mary. The 2 yellow matches belong to my sisters Sharon and Heidi. In the past, I have explained these by an unknown Frazer in my ancestry that is likely in the James Line. #8 is Bonnie. #10 is Clydie. This is an interesting match because it is almost 20 cM. Also Clydie does not have 2 Frazers in a row in her ancestry until before William Fitzgerald Frazer and Margaret Graham. This means that Madeline, Charlotte and Clydie could have a Graham in common or perhaps an ancestor of Margaret Graham in common.

Summary of the Five New TGs

Here is the summary of the new James Line TGs not including the X Chromosome:

James Line TG Summary

The numbers in the top right are the Chromosomes where the James Line TGs are. The names in the bottom left indicate the likely common ancestor(s) for the TGs. For simplicity, I left out the new TGs that had James and Archibald Line people in them.

Summary and Conclusions

  • The addition of Madeline to the James Line DNA Test Group tipped the scales and resulted in previously unknown TGs for the James Line.
  • Out of the 11 people, considered, 9 were in James Line TGs.
  • The newest member of our James Line DNA Group, Madeline, was in the most TGs: four
  • Charlotte helped form 3 new TGs
  • Even though Mary is a niece of Madeline and Charlotte, she also helped form 3 new TGs
  • Bonnie, Judith, Jonathan, Janet, Prudence and Joanna were each in one new TG
  • The 2 that weren’t in TGs were Clydie and Beverly. However, Clydie was in an X Chromosome TG. Beverly shows as a 3rd cousin to Bonnie and Judith. As a result, her relationships can be inferred through them.
  • These new TGs add certainty to the relatedness of those on the James Line.

Looking for Frazer DNA in All the Right Places

In my last Blog on Frazer DNA, I summarized all the Frazer Triangulation Groups (TGs) that I knew about. Since that time, I ordered a Big Y test for myself. I also wrote some blogs on the DNA of my wife’s Dicks family from Newfoundland. I used a more methodical way of looking for TGs with the Dicks family. Also I was able to conclude more about the TGs that I did find. As a result, I thought that I would take a fresh look at the Frazer TGs.

Summary of the Previous Frazer TG Summary

  • There were 11 TGs
  • 14 people were in those 11 TGs
  • Those 11 TGs represented 7 groups. Those 7 groups were 7 different Frazer ancestors – or ancestral couples that were born between about 1690 and 1803. These Frazer ancestors were mostly on the Archibald Line. However, one TG was believed to represent the founding father of the Frazers in Ireland. He was Archibald Frazer born about 1690.

New and Improved Frazer TG Analysis

This time I looked at some of the extra people that have been shown to match our group, but aren’t sure where their Frazer ancestors fit in. I compared all the project Frazer descendants in a Gedmatch utility called Multiple Kit Analysis. I downloaded those results into a spreadsheet. That resulted in 1280 segment matches between all those that tested. I have 27 testees in the current study. I left out daughters as their mothers (Charlotte, Vivien and Clyde) had the better DNA for analysis.

archibald Line testees
  1. Bill
  2. Pat
  3. Gladys
  4. Heidi
  5. Joel
  6. Sharon
  7. Paul
  8. Michael
  9. Jane
  10. Ros
  11. Cathy
  12. Doug
  13. Vivien
  14. David
James Line Testees
  1. Prudence
  2. Charlotte
  3. Mary
  4. Jonathan
  5. Janet
  6. Joanna
  7. Judith
  8. Bonnie
  9. Beverly
  10. Clyde
Testees unsure of their frazer ancestry
  1. Karen
  2. CA
  3. Jenn
  4. Melissa
  5. Stephanie

The Ground Rules For the Frazer Triangulation Groups

  • As I mentioned above, I didn’t include any children where the parent would provide as good or better DNA
  • I didn’t include siblings in a Triangulation Group. I used them individually, but not together. So for example, there are 2 sets of 3 siblings in the project. They would obviously triangulate with their own parents as common ancestors. Or if 2 siblings’ DNA matched another person in the group, I would not count that as a TG. The reasoning is that siblings all get their DNA from their parents and they are treated collectively as one person for the purposes of triangulating.
  • I did use niece/nephew to aunt/uncle relationships in triangulating. The reasoning here is that they are getting their DNA from different sources. I found in the previous study that I did, very often the niece would be in the TG and the aunt wouldn’t, for example.
And the answer is:

Rather than go through every TG individually, I will just give the final answer.

New Frazer TG Summary

  • Now I’m up to 29 TGs from a previous 11 TGs
  • Due to overlapping TGs in different generations of ancestors, there were 2 TGs that I counted in my previous analysis that I didn’t count here.
  • There are 24 People in these TGs
  • The Frazer TGs are indicated in green
  • Blue could be McMaster TGs – which is confusing as my McMaster ancestor had a Frazer grandmother
  • Pink could be Price TGs. The only people in these TGs descend from George Frazer b. 1858 and Susanna Price.
  • There are 5 groups of people.
    • The first descend from Richard Frazer b. 1777 (or from his brother Philip, but for simplicity, I left him out)
    • The second group descend from Richard Frazer b. 1777 or from Archibald Frazer b. 1778. These people have ancestors in both groups.
    • The 3rd group descends from Archibald Frazer b. 1778
    • The 4th group are not sure of their Frazer descent
    • The 5th group descend from the James Line of Frazers.
  • Note that TG01A is probably an Archibald/Stinson TG. This is because Vivien descends from Archibald and not Richard. That brings Michael and Jane (who descend from either Richard or Archibald) into Vivien’s Archibald camp.
  • TG01B is probably a Richard 1777 TG. This uses the same logic. Heidi and Paul descend from Richard and not Archibald, so they pull Michael and Jane into the Richard camp.
  • Other TGs’ ancestors can be guessed at using the same reasoning
  • Where there are people in a Richard 1777 TG there are not people in an Archibald 1778 TG and vice versa. This makes sense as people in those 2 groups descend from either Richard or Archibald.
  • TG12 is popular with 7 people in this group.

Highlighting Some James Line TGs

tg02A & TG02B – Paul, Heidi, Sharon, Jonathan and Stephanie

Jonathan had a small match that put him in the first of these 2 TGs:

TG02 Jonathan

Here there are 2 TGs, but they are difficult to see. The first one I didn’t have before as it required me to lower the thresholds for Jonathan’s match to Paul. So the first TG includes Paul, Heidi, Sharon and Jonathan. The second TG, I didn’t have in my previous TGs, because I didn’t include Stephanie. She is in the second Triangulation Group and Paul is out. On my first chart, I have these 2 TGs in blue as they may go back to my McMaster ancestor (whose grandmother was a Frazer)

McMaster Ancestry

TG15B – Charlotte, Mary, and Paul

TG15B

Here, I noticed that Charlotte and  Mary matched. This was not surprising as they are aunt and niece. Also Charlotte and Paul matched. However, I wasn’t showing a match between Mary and Paul which would make the last link of the TG. I lowered the thresholds between Mary and Paul and found the missing link. In my master chart, I show this TG in blue as this could also be a McMaster match. This is combined with the fact that Charlotte has an X match with my 2 sisters. The X cannot travel from a father to a son, so is not a good indication of a male line (in this case the Frazer Line). However, as shown in the Ancestry tree of my grandmother above, there could be an X connection between my sisters and Charlotte to a Frazer via the McMaster Line. Paul would not have this same X match as he got his X Chromosome from his non-Frazer mother and no X from his Frazer father.

TG17 – Doug, Bonnie and Beverly

TG17

Here, again, I lowered the threshold and found that Beverly and Doug did match, forming a TG. I don’t know if Doug has any ancestors along the Knott line, but there are many other possibilities where these 2 families could match up including Archibald Frazer born about 1690.

Richard 1777 or Archibald 1778?

Here is an interesting TG. It is made up of Bill, Gladys and Jane. As far as we know, these 3 are both descended from both Richard and Archibald. However, look at the details:

Chr15TG

Here it is important to note who isn’t in the TG as well as who is. Cathy and Michael match, but are not in the TG – even though they match on a segment where they could be in the TG. Cathy is the only one out of the 5 above that does not potentially descend from Richard Frazer born 1777. This means that the Michael/Cathy match would be on the Archibald/Stinson Line. This further means that the TG with Bill, Gladys and Jane is more likely to be on the Richard Frazer Line.

In a less likely scenario, perhaps Michael and Cathy only got the Stinson DNA and Bill/Gladys/Jane and Michael got only Frazer DNA. Or vice versa. The last scenario would be difficult to prove unless one group matched a Stinson who wasn’t related to a Frazer. Nothing is easy.

And Finally, the Puzzling TG09A-D

TG09A & B don’t look too complicated:

TG09AB

They look like the standard Bill/Gladys/Pat [Frazer/Price] TGs. However, adding in TG09 C & D:

TG9CD

It looks like there is a blue TG nested inside the gold TG. Then inside them both is a non-TG match between Ros and Vivien which is on a different line –  the John Parker Frazer (born 1827) Line.

A closer look at Chromosome 9: Sharon, Paul, Pat and Gladys

Here is Sharon’s Chromosome 9 map. She is on the first row. I am on the second row and my other sister Heidi is on the third.

Chr9 Map

Sharon’s DNA is represented by the top orange/purple bar. I show her with no crossovers. I also show that she received her paternal (top bar) and maternal (bottom bar) grandmothers’ DNA intact. Now Sharon’s Frazer grandmother got her DNA from her 4 grandparents. These would be: Frazer, McMaster, Clarke, and Spratt. Paul only matches with Frazer and McMaster. Bill, Gladys and Pat only match with Frazer.

Note that Bill and Gladys and Pat and Gladys match from about 1-90. This would indicate a large chunk of DNA that they inherited from George Frazer, born 1858. Then out of that large chunk, George got his DNA from his 4 grandparents. In this case, two of his 4 grandparents were first cousins, Violet and James Frazer.

Let’s follow Sharon’s matches down the list.

  • From 4-9, she matches Paul and is not in the TG with Bill, Gladys and Pat
  • From 38-78, she is in a TG with Paul and Karen. These 2 matches could be a McMaster match as  Sharon, Paul, Karen are not matching Bill, Gladys or Pat in this segment
  • From 18-23, she matches her sister Heidi, but this is a non-Frazer maternal match
  • From 85-90, she is in a TG with Pat and Gladys. Their common ancestors are James Frazer and Violet Frazer.
  • So, even though Sharon could have matched Bill, Gladys and Pat from 0-90 where they had a large match with each other, she didn’t. She only matched them starting at location 85. Something happened there. This is the precise point where I surmise that she went from matching on the McMaster Line to the Frazer Line.

This is how it could look mapped out on Chromosome 9

Chr 9

Notes:

  • Sharon appears to have all her Chromosome 9 from her Frazer grandmother
  • Pat and Gladys match from 12-90. They are also in a TG which would indicate by itself a common ancestor of either George Frazer b. 1858 or his wife Susanna Price. As Bill and Gladys also match between 1-90, I could have shown the purple segment as going further to the left.
  • However, Sharon is in a a TG on a portion of this same DNA segment (see the red above).  That red TG identifies Gladys’ purple segment above as being Frazer and not Price. The common ancestors between Gladys and Sharon in red are James Frazer or Violet Frazer. I drew the red to the 100 mark as Gladys and Sharon match each other from 85 to 100.
  • Sharon matches Paul from 22-86. However, this match does not match with Gladys in the same area of her Chromosome 9 where we have established she has a long Frazer DNA segment. Sharon and Paul have as common ancestors George Frazer b. 1838 and Margaret McMaster. As Sharon and Paul don’t match Gladys in this Frazer region of Gladys’ DNA segment, the match between Paul and Sharon must be through the McMaster side. There aren’t any other options left. [See the chart below.]
  • Violet Frazer descends from Richard Frazer. As there are no other matches of Richard Frazer descendants in this [red] TG, it would be more likely that the common ancestor is James Frazer, Violet’s first cousin.

Here is how the red TG09D looks like on the Frazer Chart:

 

Violet-James TG

I don’t have any photos of James and Violet Frazer, but here is their house in Derrycastle (or Derrycashel) Roscommon:

Derrycashel House

My cousin, James Frazer and my wife were checking out the front doorway in 2004. Without the help of my Frazer relatives in Ireland, I would not have been able to locate this house.

A brief note on the importance of triangulation groups

In my blogs, I tend to put a lot of emphasis on Triangulation Groups. They are important, but especially so for relationships where we have little to no paper documentation. When I first found Bill as a relative, I had to convince him that we were related. I was only really guessing as I didn’t have definitive proof myself. Now, with DNA, we see that my guesses were accurate.

TGs have less importance where the relationships are known and documented. It is interesting that Bill, Gladys and Pat are in TGs, but whether they are or if they just match singly, they already know how they are related to each other. The same is true of Vivien and Ros in my last example. They are not in a TG with each other on Chromosome 9, but they know that they are related and who their common ancestors are.

Summary and Conclusions

  • My recent work with my wife’s Newfoundland side of the family resulted in many more TGs than I had found in the Frazer DNA Project. Many of those TGs resulted from Aunt and Uncle relationships. Armed with that information and looking at the Frazer Project matches in a more methodical way, I found many more TGs
  • I also found some TGs where there were 2 people in a triangle and a third didn’t match. By lowering the thresholds at gedmatch.com, it became clear whether the third person would match the other 2 or not.
  • By looking at who is and isn’t in the TGs, as well as looking at nested TGs, it is possible to make educated guesses of which ancestors a TG represents. This comes in especially handy when a TG that could be from more than one Frazer Line.
  • Only 4 people in the project did not triangulate. They are Judith, Joanna, Prudence and Clyde – all from the James Line. That may be due to the fact that the relationships tend to be more distant in that Line. Also there are no known Frazer cousin marriages in that line. One other person in the unknown group, Melissa, did not triangulate.

 

 

More On Frazer DNA

In this blog, I’d like to finish a few thoughts on Frazer YDNA and look at some new Frazer autosomal DNA Results.

YDNA Thoughts and Summaries

  1. The 2 Frazer Lines have now successfully tested their YDNA. The YDNA test Jonathan and Paul took is called a 37 STR (Short Tandem Repeat) test. This test has indicated a common SNP Haplogroup for the 2 lines called R1a-L664.
  2. As the 2 Frazer Lines indicate a match, this gives us confidence in our genealogy and in the autosomal DNA matches testers have between the Archibald and James Frazer Lines.
  3. These 2 tests have resulted in a unique STR signature for each line. This STR signature is called a Haplotype.
  4. The difference in the STR values between the 2 Frazer Line YDNA test results is called the Genetic Distance (GD). The GD between the 2 lines is 3 by FTDNA.
  5. When I count the GD by hand, I get a difference of 4, but FTDNA tells me this about the CDY marker: “CDY is counted using the infinite allele method.  Basically this marker is so volatile we can see multiple numeric value jumps in a single mutation.  So even if it is off by five it would still only be counted as a genetic distance of 1.” So that explains the anomaly.
  6. I had expected the GD to be lower between the 2 lines. The 2 testers should have a common ancestor 7 generations from present if our genealogy is correct. This person is believed to be Archibald Frazer b. about 1690.
  7. Some STRs have a rate of change must faster than others. The markers that have changed between the 2 lines are the faster moving markers.
  8. The haplotype for the YDNA test representing the James line appears to me to be more likely to be the haplotype of the Archibald Frazer b. about 1690. This is difficult to determine based on only 2 YDNA tests. However, I base my theory partly on the fact that the haplotype representing the Archibald line has many fewer matches to other testers than the one representing the James Line. My theory is that the Archibald Line YDNA has mutated to a more distinct state from that of the original YDNA and thus has fewer matches.
  9. More STR testing has been ordered to further refine the 2 Frazer Line Haplotypes. These results should be out by the latter part of January 2016.

I hope that makes sense. Please email me if you need further clarification.

You Gotta Lovat

All this YDNA testing has created renewed interest in some of the Project Members concerning family lore of descent from the Lord Lovat Branch of the Frasers. YDNA can certainly reach to that era and beyond.

Part of Jonathan's YDNA Match Map
Part of Jonathan’s YDNA Match Map

These striking results show that 3 out of 4 of Jonathan’s YDNA mapped matches have their most distant ancestors located in NE Scotland. At least one part of the family lore has the earliest Frazers at Keith. Notice on the map above that Keith is located to the East of the middle marker. To me, this supports traditions of the Frazers being in NE Scotland at some time before being located in Stirling and Ayrshire to the SW of Scotland. The leap of faith part is believing that both these families were in that area about 500 years or more before our respective families’ earliest verifiable ancestors.

Back to the Autosomal DNA

While we’ve been pondering our Frazer YDNA results, the autosomal testing has been moving on apace. Patricia (or Pat’s) results have come in. I was interested in her results for the following reasons:

  • Her second cousin Bill had many matches. Some of these were also with the James Line Testers
  • Pat, Bill, Paul and I also share a pair of Frazer cousin ancestors who married. These were James Frazer and Violet Frazer. DNA representing Violet’s father has already been found by triangulation. However, James’ DNA and certain genealogy have been more difficult to nail down.

Pat’s Genealogy

In an earlier Blog, I touched on Pat’s second cousin Bill’s genealogy. I’d like to expand on that here. Bill and Pat have as their common ancestors, George Frazer b. 1858 in Martinsburg, New York and his wife Susan or Susanna Price. According to one Ancestry tree, the handsome family looked like this:

Frazer Price

I mention this, because half of the autosomal DNA that Pat and Bill share would be from Susan Price. Now, again, according to Ancestry, Susan Price’s parents were John Price and Margaret Stinson both born in or around Enniskillen, Ireland. Perhaps this Margaret Stinson was related to this George’s mother’s grandmother Ann Stinson. If so, do you think that will complicate the DNA results?

Here is the DNA that Pat and Bill share in orange (representing George Frazer and Susan Price) as seen on FTDNA’s Chromosome Browser:

Pat and Bill's Shared DNA

Frazers in Martinsburg, New York in the 1850s

Here on the bottom 3 lines of the New York State 1855 Census are George Frazer’s parents: Richard Frazer and Ellen Hassard or Hazard. As mentioned above, Ellen is also the granddaughter of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.

Richard Frazer 1855 Census

I have included the Johnston family above because the father William Johnston was married to Mary Frazer, daughter of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. So you are perhaps seeing a Stinson pattern here as well as a Frazer pattern. In fact, in the 1901 Census for Clanwilliam, Marquette, Manitoba, we see a William Stinson b. in Ireland living near the George Frazer family. Also living in the Frazer house was George’s mother, the (by 1901) widowed Ellen (Hassard) Frazer.

Then on the previous census page of the 1855 New York Census for Martinsburg:

Hazards 1855

Here is yet another Frazer. Ann Frazer is the younger sister of Mary Frazer Johnston. I have that Ann married a John Hazard on 24 Dec 1824 at Ardcarne, Roscommon, Ireland; by licence. John tried to confuse me by going by William in the US, but apparently he is one and the same.

Let’s go back 5 years to the US Federal Census of 1850 in Martinsburg:

Patrick Frazer 1850

and on the next page:

Patrick Frazer 1850a

Here is a James Line Frazer. Patrick Frazer would be a second cousin once removed to Mary Frazer Johnston and Ann Frazer Hazard. We have this Patrick married to a Jane Lacy. However, other Ancestry trees have him married to a Jane Mostown. In the 1855 census, Jane appears to have a middle initial of M. However, the 2 Janes are either the same, or Patrick remarried a second Jane. Or, less likely, there was more than one Patrick Frazer! This sidetrack shouldn’t effect the DNA results, but it is interesting to see how these Irish families stayed together in the US.

Two Side by Side Triangulation Groups

When I started looking at Pat’s results, I noticed a new Triangulation Group (TG) right near an existing one.

2 TGs with Jane

The existing TG has Jane, Doug and Michael and clearly indicates that the DNA represents that of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. We know this because Doug does not to his knowledge have multiple Frazer lines – that is, Frazer ancestors marrying Frazer ancestors.

The newer TG is on the top and includes Bill, Pat and Jane. Note that Jane is in both groups. Also note that this could indicate the common ancestor the 3 have in Richard Frazer b. about 1777. Frankly, I’m quite puzzled and stumped as to who this TG represents. I have ordered a book on Endogamy by Israel Pickholtz. Perhaps that will help. Note also that Bill and Pat match each other to location 170,00,000 (say 170) This is the area where Jane, Doug and Michael match each other, but they don’t show a match with those 3 in that area. This will take some thought to decipher.

DNA Going Two Different Ways

In a previous blog, I noted difficulty in finding the DNA from my Frazer ancestor James Frazer. He was married to a Violet Frazer who I could find due to triangulation with her father Richard. Some matches with Pat may indicate additional DNA Pat and my family share that came down from this Frazer couple.

Pat Chr 4

Here, I have Pat’s match with me (JH) on Chromosome 6. I included above that, Pat’s cousin Bill’s match with Cathy. See they are at similar locations. However, these 2 sets of matches indicate different ancestors. The Bill and Cathy match represent DNA from the Archibald Frazer Line. I am not related on that line. So even though this segments overlaps, it could never triangulate. The match I have with Pat is most likely with James Frazer and Violet Frazer. This is what I think the above means. Remember George Frazer who was born in Martinsburg. Also remember, on each Chromosome we get DNA from both our parents or rather 2 sets of Chromosomes (one Paternal set and one maternal set). George had on one Chromosome #6 DNA from his father Richard Frazer and and on the other Chromosome #6, DNA from his mother Ellen Hazard.

George and Pat Frazer Tree

It looks like George passed on his father’s Richard Frazer DNA to Richard Price “Pat” Frazer. This is easy to remember because “Pat” is the ancestor of our Frazer DNA tester Pat. This is the line that would match with me, as Richard is the son of James Frazer and Violet Frazer. The maternal Hassard Line carrying the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson DNA went to George Harvey on our tester Bill’s line. This is the line that matches with Cathy. So in these 2 set of matches, we appear to be splitting out the related ancestors. Complicated. But at least I have an explanation for it, unlike the previous triangulation case.

Finally, here’s a match on Chromosome 9 between Pat and Sharon for about 11 cM. I take this to represent the DNA of my kissing cousin ancestors James and Violet Frazer.

Pat Sharon Match

A Triangulation Group with a Genetic Genealogist: But Who Are the Common Ancestors?

The next Triangulation group is with a genetic genealogist named Jennifer (JZ below). I mentioned that she was in a TG with Cathy and Jane in a previous blog about Cathy’s DNA results written August 2015.

Pat Jenn TG

This TG has Pat, Cathy, Jane and Jennifer. But wait. I don’t see a match between Pat and Jane. I lowered the levels a bit at Gedmatch.com and see that all four women match each other on Chromosome 5 and that they do indeed match and triangulate:

Pat and Jane Gedmatch

We know that Cathy and Jane have a Frazer ancestor born about 1802. Cathy and Pat share a Frazer ancestor b. about 1778. There is still a mystery as to how Jennifer fits in. She had a J. Frazer ancestor, that I guessed was a Jane Frazer. I further guessed that this Jane was a sister of the Archibald that married Catherine Parker. This theory still makes sense. Jennifer has subsequently found out that her ancestor was indeed named Jane Frazer/Frazier.

Summary on Pat’s Autosomal DNA Results

  • Pat didn’t seem to have as many matches as her second cousin Bill. This means that Bill just seemed to get extra Frazer DNA including from the more distant James Line.
  • Pat did shed some light on the common cousin Frazer ancestors that her family and my family share: James and Violet
  • Pat’s DNA resulted in a new TG. This will need more analysis as to where that TG is pointing to as far as in common Frazer ancestors
  • A comparison of Pat and her 2nd cousin Bill’s matches on Chromosome 6 helped to untangle some endogamy in the family (multiple Frazer lines due to marriages of relatives).
  • Pat’s DNA solidified a TG with a genetic genealogist who didn’t originally test to show any specific Frazer ancestry

My Frazer Cousin’s DNA Results Are In

I’m so happy that my cousin Paul’s autosomal DNA results are in. He is my second cousin once removed. He is also a generation closer to my Frazer 2nd great grandparents. That means his DNA results should be better than mine in matching others. Here are my 2nd great grandparents (Paul’s great grandparents) at the farm in Ballindoon, County Sligo. Both Paul and I descend from the first 2 people in the photo: George Frazer b. about 1838 and Margaret McMaster.

Frazers

I like this photo, but I can’t help but think the family looks a bit sad. Perhaps they missed my great grandfather who moved to Boston. There were 9 children and at least one additional child that appeared to have died young. Out of those surviving 9 children, there are only 3 in this photo taken at the family farm in Ballindoon.

Meanwhile, in Boston, here are 5 of the 7 Frazer brothers.

5frazerbrothers

Let me introduce you to my great grandfather who is sitting down on the left. He is the oldest in the family. Hubert is Paul’s grandfather standing on the far right.

Paul’s DNA

So let’s look at some of Paul’s DNA matches. Here is how Paul matches my 2 sisters and myself. Also for reference, I have his 2 other largest Frazer matches at Family Tree DNA (FTDNA)

On the browser below Paul matches the following relatives:

  • Sharon is orange
  • Heidi is blue
  • I am green
  • Michael is pink
  • Jane is yellow

Paul's DNA FTDNA

There are some places where I don’t match other Frazers in the project. These would be good candidates for McMaster matches as Paul and I both share Margaret McMaster as an ancestor. For example, look at Chromosome #9. Paul matches my sister Sharon for a large stretch shown in orange. There is a large match there where neither Paul nor my family match other Frazer testers in the DNA project. My guess is that is where Sharon and Paul share DNA with Margaret McMaster.

But, there is more going on at Chromosome #9 and it ties into a previous blog I wrote on the X Chromosome called The X Factor – Part 2. I’ll try to explain what Paul and Sharon’s match on Chromosome #9 has to do with the X Chromosome. First a word on triangulation.

A Possible Frazer DNA Triangle?

Paul’s testing resulted in an additional Triangulation Group (or TG). These are good things because they are DNA’s way of telling us that those in the TG come from a common ancestor.  However, is this common ancestor from a Frazer or a McMaster? This new TG looks like this.

TG Paul Sharon Karen

This is the classic 3 person TG where Paul (PF) matches Sharon (SH), Sharon matches Karen (KS) and Paul matches Karen. Now this is where I’ll tie it all together in an amazing or unbelievable way (depending on your point of view). Karen is the karen I mentioned on my X Chromosome blog. She had a huge X match with Sharon. My guess at the time was that karen’s X match went through Margaret McMaster back past her grandmother who was Margaret Frazer. Then back to Margaret’s unknown father as the likely common ancestor. It’s a little easier to see here:

Dad's X Inheritance

So in this scenario, Paul and Sharon’s large match represent Margaret McMaster above b. 1846. But the TG of Paul, Sharon and Karen represents (probably) the father of Margaret Frazer above. I had been thinking that Karen may be related on the McMaster side. That is another option. However, Karen isn’t aware of McMaster ancestors, but she is aware of one Frazer/Frazier ancestor from the area. Actually, if Karen’s TG ancestor is the same as her X Match ancestor, I suppose the match could be anyone in pink or blue to the right of Margaret McMaster on the chart above. I just thought the Frazer scenario fit in with what Karen knew about her ancestry. Another note is that the X match and the Chromosome 9 match don’t have to represent the same ancestor. One could be a Frazer and one could be a McMaster. At any rate, it is a case where genealogy, triangulation group and X Chromosome match appear to work together.

Paul’s Gedmatch Results on the Archibald Line

Paul and I are on the Archibald line which goes back to the early 1700’s. Here is how he matches up with those on that line by gedmatch. In this analysis gedmatch lowers their match results a bit to 5 cM.

Paul cf Archibald Line

Going across the top line, Paul matches the first 6 who have a common ancestor of Richard Frazer b. 1777. The last 3 people have as their ancestor another Archibald who was the brother of Richard. He has either no matches or small ones with them.

And the James Gang

The way the project has been split up we have looked at the Archibald Line and the James Line. These 2 likely brothers have a whole bunch of descendants. Here is how Paul matches James Line descendants.

Paul cf James Line AVG

Interestingly, Paul’s largest match here is with Judith. Judith is related to Bonnie, but Paul has no match with her. Also I did something different here. I deleted all the cM values for the close relations. Those are up to second cousins shown in pink. Then I added a column to the right. This adds up everyone’s matches (minus the close relations). At the bottom I took the average summed cM value for the James relations. What this tells me is that Paul is likely as related to the James Line testers as the James lines testers are related to each other. This report doesn’t seem to be the most accurate as Paul actually does have a match with Janet which doesn’t show here.

More On Archibald Line TGs

Aside from the new TG Paul is in (which may not be a Frazer TG), we had 3 Archibald Line TGs. The third, discovered after Doug tested, was in the Archibald-Ann Stinson Line that Paul is not in. That leaves 2 other TGs. I had previously thought both these TGs went back to Richard Frazer b. 1777 and his unknown wife. Now I’m not as sure.

The first of the 2 TGs is in Chromosome 1. Here is what it looks like.

Chromosome 1 TG

Note that in this TG are Michael (MFA), Jane, Paul (PF) and Heidi (HHM) with huge matches. Then there is Bill (BR) and Mike (MB) with smaller matches. Mike is someone who isn’t in the project but appears to be in the TG. Note that my sister Sharon and I are not in this TG due to the random way we inherited our parent’s DNA.

The second TG is on Chromosome #12

Chromosome 12 TG

In this TG is Dave from Canada. EG and RWT are other people not in the project but appear to triangulate with our group. This means they should share common ancestors. My sisters Heidi and Sharon as well as I are in this TG. Jane is here and Bill.

Why I doubted both these TGs were from Richard b. 1777 and his unknown wife.

  • DF is only in the second group. We’ll call that TG12
  • Paul is only in the first group. That would be TG01
  • Michael is only in TG01

Why I am staying with these 2 TGs both representing Richard Frazer and wife:

  • DF didn’t match Paul by DNA, so that makes sense that Paul wouldn’t be in a TG that DF (David) was in.
  • Paul is unquestionably related to me and my family. The link we have goes back to George Frazer who was born about 1838. That means before that time we share the same ancestry. Paul isn’t in TG 12 with my sisters and me, but he would share the same ancestors we have from that TG by genealogy.
  • I think I can extend the same logic to Michael (MFA). He can’t share a different genealogy with Paul separate from my family. This is because Paul and my genealogy are locked in from 1838 and before.

I think that makes sense. It’s a good brain teaser at any rate.

In Summary

  • Paul’s DNA results appear to solidify rather than question 2 existing TGs leading back to Richard Frazer b. 1777. As a side note, I don’t know if it’s normal to have 2 TGs for one couple – especially that far back. Something to look into, perhaps.
  • Paul’s DNA also netted a new TG. This one involves karen who had a mysterious huge X Chromosome match with my sister. The apparent common ancestor appears to go back on my McMaster line. However, this line had another Frazer in it.
  • Paul is related to the James as well as the Archibald line. This is likely due to the Margaret Frazer who married one of our McMaster ancestors.
  • Places where Paul match my family but not other Frazer DNA Project testers will likely represent our shared McMaster ancestors. These McMaster ancestors lived somewhat parallel lives to the Frazers. They started out farming in South Sligo and the Frazers started out farming in bordering North Roscommon.

New Frazer Tester: the Saga Continues

We have a new Frazer tester. This is always exciting as it brings new possibilities. The tester is Cathy. She is on the Archibald Frazer line which is mine but on an Archibald branch of that line which is not mine. Here is the Archibald Line.

Archibald Line Chart

There were actually 4 brothers below Archibald, but we’ve only found descendents for 3. I’m under the first 2 brothers due to a cousin marriage. Those under the first 2 brothers all have had Frazer cousin ancestors who married each other except for the purple line. This is for someone who didn’t know he was related but likely is due to triangulation. These first cousin ancestry marriages make figuring out the ancestry a bit tricky. One help is that under the 2nd brother shown above, Richard, we have a triangulation group. This means that Richard’s DNA was passed down to the 4 lines and testers today all match each other.

Now on the right is the Archibald that we are looking at today. Our new tester, Cathy is on the orange line. Ros’ line is to the left of her. Ros and Cathy don’t have ancestors that were Frazer cousins that married as far as we know, which should make things a bit simpler. The light green line is for someone who awaiting his DNA test results.

Here is a close up of the Archibald/Stinson Line. The thing I like about this line is that all of the spouses are identified. The other 2 brothers of Archibald (Philip and Richard) don’t have wives with names which leaves a bit to guesswork.

Archibald Stinson Chart

Just in this Archibald/Stinson Line, we have 5 testers and one planning on testing. 3 of those 5 testers have Frazer ancestors in other lines – those are due to the cousins who married as I mentioned previously. I was hoping to find a triangulation group here, but haven’t so far at the standard levels used at the Gedmatch.com website. However, when I look at Cathy’s results compared to the other testers at Gedmatch, I see this on Chromosome #6:

Chromosome #6

This looks like Bill, Ros and Cathy form the tiniest triangulation group. It is difficult to see the overlap in green above, but in the chart above a very slight overlap is shown. I don’t know if this is a triangulation group or not. I have seen in some definitions that the overlap has to be significant, but I don’t see that mentioned in the ISOGG web site. It would be interesting to run the Tier I Gedmatch Utility for Triangulation to see if Gedmatch thinks this is a triangulation group. This is something that takes up to 45 minutes, so it is a long process. If this is a true triangulation group, it is likely that this would indicate the common ancestors of Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.

I did try the Triangulation utility for Cathy at Gedmatch, but this group didn’t show up. It was too small. However, I did try other matches. The first was with my sister at Chromosome #3. She (and I) aren’t even on the Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson Line.

Heidi CathyR match

It looks like my sister Heidi and Cathy are 5th cousins, once removed going by lines which we have identified. That match is fairly small at 7.2 centimorgans. When I check Cathy’s triangulation report, I find she has a triangulation group at Chromosome 3. In fact, she has a huge one there. On a spreadsheet, it goes from line 296 to line 1289. That is quite a large triangulation group. That doesn’t mean that there are over 900 people in the group as people match multiple people along the way. Once the trees of these people are identified, it may be possible to find out who the common ancestors are for this triangulation group. Recall that a triangulation group means that people in that group should share a common ancestor. These ancestors should either be on the Frazer side or the Parker side. However, as my sister also matches at least some of those people, I would think that the ancestor would be on the Frazer side. It is an important thing is that I checked to see if my sister matched any of the people in the triangulation group. This is because the triangulation group could be on Cathy’s mother’s side (the Frazer side) or her father’s side. By checking if these people match my sister I am making sure this is a Frazer side Triangulation group.

The next match of Cathy’s is her largest. I would think that this should represent Archibald Frazer and Catherine Parker. Here is her match with Jane – one of the testers in our Frazer group.

CathyR Jane Match

This match is on Chromosome 4 and is for 34.8 cMs which is quite large. Let’s check to see if there is a triangulation group here.

Cathy 5 TG

Here, Jane is A974138. She is in a triangulation group with F318689. So Jane or Cathy may want to get in touch with this person to see if s/he knows about his or her ancestry.  I then checked to see if Jane matched F318689. She does, but not large enough to make the Gedmatch cutoff.

So I what I did above was to go from the known to the unknown First I looked at the matches with the people in the Frazer testing group. We know they are all related in some way – either through the Frazer family or through spouses of Frazers. As we all know we have Frazers in our ancestry, the chances are that many of the matches do represent Frazers. I looked at the specific place on the Chromosome where there was a match. I ran a triangulation at Gedmatch to see if anyone else had the same or similar ancestors. In the case of Chromosome #5, I did contact the person (named Jen) and she did have a Frazer in her ancestry, though she didn’t know much about this person. The good news is that we have a person who we didn’t know before who has a Frazer ancestor and who we know must share a common ancestor with the Jane and Cathy from our DNA testing group.

Cathy’s Well Behaved DNA

When I say Cathy’s DNA is well behaved, this is what I mean. At her closest match with her 3rd cousin, Jane, she has her largest DNA match which is 34.8. Here are Cathy’s matches:

cathy matches

I rented a brand new Excel program for this blog and I thought it would sort better than it did. However, this shows my point. For the closer relationships, she larger cM matches (see green highlights). The correlation isn’t perfect, but it is about as close as one might expect for DNA.

What We Learned from Cathy’s DNA

  • Cathy’s DNA is well behaved. When DNA is not well behaved, I have issues. For example, if the relationship is not close but the DNA match is high, or vica versa, it is sometimes difficult to tell if the DNA is just being difficult, or if there is something wrong with the genealogy.
  • Cathy appears to have at least 2 triangulation groups.
  • One triangulation group is very large, but the match levels are smaller. This likely means that the match is more distant. The more distant the match, the more descendants there are which explains the large triangulation group. Either that, or this line had a lot of descendants that tested their DNA.
  • The other triangulation group is small. However, the matches are a bit larger. This could be a more recent group, with fewer descendants, explaining the smaller triangulation group.