Summary of Frazer Triangulation Groups

Here I will attempt to summarize the Frazer Triangulation Groups (TGs). Not all the Frazer TGs in the World. I will be looking at just the Frazer TGs from this Project.

How to Organize TGs?

In organizing the TGs for this Project, I have a lot of options:

  • In the order they were found
  • In the order of chromosomes
  • By family
  • By level of relationship

And the answer is: by level of relationship. This perhaps isn’t as intuitive as by family. I would like to look at the closer relationships first and then those that are not as close. The reason I would like to do this is that the closer relationships are the most certain ones and the TGs representing the further out relationships would be the less certain. It is generally a good idea to go from the known to the unknown (or certain to less certain).

Unfortunately, I started out looking at level of relationship, but it seems too disjointed. I’ll organize this blog by order of chromosomes, but consider the relationship levels as I go.

Frazer DNA Project Participants

At a certain point, TGs are not needed. For example, I form a TG with my 2 siblings. The common ancestors are my 2 parents. Now if my parents were unknown, the TG would be more useful. Perhaps a look at the relationships that we have in the project would be useful. First, who is in the project? The core of the project are those that have built out Frazer genealogies and are related by genealogy and DNA. A second group is related by DNA and have a Frazer ancestor from the area of North Roscommon, Ireland, but can’t really place that ancestor. The third group is related by DNA but don’t even know of a Frazer ancestor or perhaps even an Irish ancestor.

We have:

  • 27 Testers – These are split into the 2 Frazer Lines of 14 Archibald Line testers and 13 James Line testers
  • 9 of the Archibald Line Testers have multiple Frazer ancestors

Frazer Chromosomes By the Number

Chromosome 1 – The Triangulation Super Group

I call this a super group for a few reasons. It was the first one found. It was very easy to find due to the large matches that made it seem obvious.

TG 1A: Violet frazer b. 1803 tg – Third Cousin level

This TG is thought to represent Violet Frazer who was married to James Frazer. I’ve guessed that the TG was specifically for Violet as she is the daughter of Richard Frazer and this TG is also in the middle of a Richard Frazer TG. She is my third great grandmother.

Violet TG

Here my sister Heidi (HHM), my second cousin Paul, once removed Paul (PF), Bill and his Aunt Gladys are in a TG. We all descend from Violet Frazer as well as James Frazer her husband. Each of these 4 people are related to the other three in overlapping areas of Chromosome 1. That is what makes up the TG.

TG 1B: The richard frazer tg on chromosome 1 (4th Cousins)

Here I have widened the net a bit to include others that are out at about the 4th cousin level with a common ancestor of Richard Frazer born about 1777:

TG 1 Richard

Note at the bottom, I added Bill, Gladys and Pat. These last 2 entries are not part of the TG. At this point, it is likely that other factors took over. One possibility is that this could represent the Price DNA that Bill, Gladys and Pat share. Note that the TG stops at 230.2 and the possible Price DNA starts at about 230.7. This is what is called a crossover point. If Michael or Jane were mapping their DNA, they could map a fairly large slice to Richard Frazer on this Chromosome.

TG 1C: the third TG at chromosome 1 – out to the mid 1700’s

There is yet another TG on Chromosome 1. This one is out to Archibald Frazer b. 1743 and his wife Mary Lilley. Now we have a solid chain of evidence. I have mapped my sister Heidi’s DNA to our grandmother Marion Frazer, b. 1894. We know Paul and our family have a common ancestor of George Frazer b. about 1838. We have a Triangulation Group identified for Violet Frazer b. 1803. We have a TG for Richard Frazer, her father. Then we go one step further out.


In this old TG, we have Jane (US), Vivien (AUS) and Michael (UK).

Jane Michael Vivien TG

I find this quite interesting. A few points:

  • How do I know that Jane, Michael and Vivien are matching as shown and not as part of the Frazer/Stinson Line on the right? This is because Jane is in the Richard Frazer TG as well as this TG. She is the bridge between the two TGs.
  • This shows that Michael, Jane and Vivien could have matched as 4th cousins (and probably do on the Frazer/Stinson Line) But on Chromosome 1, they are matching here as 5th cousins. This gets to the Frazer endogamy discussed in my recent Blog.
  • Note that Vivien’s 5th cousin matches with Jane and Michael above are smaller, indicating a more distant relationship. This does not always hold true as also note that there are small matches with Gladys and her family representing a 3rd cousin level relationship. A smaller match at a closer relationship can be due to the DNA crossovers that I mentioned earlier.
  • I mentioned that there is a sort of chain of custody going back to Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley. Now that we know that, there is also a chain of Frazers going from top to bottom. That means that because we know the same DNA came down, that the middle TG represents Richard Frazer and not his unknown wife. Likelwise, the newer TG represents Violet Frazer, daughter of Richard and not James Frazer who was Violet’s husband.

Chromosome 4 – Two TGs



Here is a problem. There are really two TGs here. One is for Bill, Gladys and Pat. The second has Jane, Gladys and Bill. Then there are Ros and Vivien who don’t appear to fit in the TG. The first larger TG is easy. That is just for the common ancestor of Gladys, Bill and Pat who is George Frazer b. 1858. The second one is more difficult. This is because Jane, Bill, Gladys and Pat all are believed to descend from the same two lines. Now note that Ros and Vivien have a small match to each other. Let’s assume that is a valid match even though it is quite small. If that is the case, then this TG 4A would have to be on the Richard Line and not the Frazer/Stinson Line. However, due to TG 4B, this could also be a Frazer/Stinson TG.

TG 4B – The Frazer/Stinson line

TG 4B is easier to figure out.


I have noted before that Doug (DV) has very few matches but he has made them count by being in a Triangulation Group. Also note that Michael (MFA) and Jane should be 4th cousins, not 4C, 1R as I show above. Here is how their  Chromosome 4 TG looks on our genealogy chart:

Frazer Stinson Line

TG 7 – Does This Represent the First Frazer in Ireland – Born Around 1690?

I mentioned this TG last month in a blog called A New Frazer TG and a New Gedmatch Tool. This is the only known TG with someone from the James Line and the only known TG between the James Line and the Archibald Line.

TG 7

Janet is from the James Line. Michael and Vivien are from the Archibald Line. I need to pull out the big chart for this one. Note that Michael descends from 2 Frazer Lines, so he is included twice.

Whole Frazer TG

Here is how the TG matches look on the Frazer DNA relationship chart:

A-J TG on Rel Chart

  • The blue matches are the 2 places where Michael could match Janet and Vivien. He only matches once, but we can’t tell which.
  • The match between Janet and Vivien is in red as they only had one known chance to match by DNA.
  • The area within the square are the matches between the Archibald and James Line of Frazers. In that box there are 13 James Line people related to 26 Archibald Line People. That is a potential of 338 matches. There were actually only 2 matches in our TG. That represents about 0.6% of the possible matches between the Archibald and James Lines.
  • The matches to the left of that box are Archibald line matches. The 2 blue matches in that area are the 2 places where Michael and Vivien could match each other.
  • The matches below the box are James Line only matches.
  • Michael and Vivien would be related to Janet by 6th cousin once removed under this scenario.
  • There is also a possibility that they could be just 6th cousins. This is because the box in the top left representing an additional Archibald on the genealogy chart was added to try to make better sense of dates. However, if that person does not belong there, the relationships will be slightly closer. This would result in the whole left side (Archibald Line) moving up a step with respect to the right side (James Line).
  • Another option is that these three may be triangulating on a collateral Line. That is, a line that married into the Frazers. However, as we are all descended from the Frazer line, I would tend to go with the Frazer option first.

TG 8 – A Double TG

Here is another case where we have a chain of custody so to speak. We will start with the newer TG, which in fact is not that new.

TG 8a with Bill, gladys and vivien


Here are the three in this TG on the Archibald/Stinson Chart:

TG 8A Chart

That was the easy one. TG 8B is a little more difficult to see.

TG 8B – Archibald frazer and mary lilley


Here I zoom out a bit on my previous chart. That previous chart is just the right hand side of the chart below.

TG 8B Chart

Look at all the chances to match by DNA. My guess here is that Paul is matching Bill from the left hand blue line where to the right hand yellow line. The reason I think that is:

  • The earlier TG that Paul was not in was through the Frazer/Stinson Line on the right.
  • Michael and Jane are not matching with Vivien. Michael and Jane are not in Paul’s blue line on the left.

Confusing? Yes.

Chromosome 12 TG – Back To the Richard Frazer Line

Here is a double TG also. TG 12A would have as common ancestors James Frazer and Violet Frazer b. in the early 1800’s. TG 12B is Richard Frazer b. about 1777 who was the father of Violet Frazer. So that means that TG 12A should only include Violet Frazer.

TG 12

  • TG 12A has Joel, Heidi, Sharon, Bill and Gladys
  • TG 12B has the above plus Jane and David (DF) from Canada.
  • Cathy, Ros and Vivien  have DNA in the same areas of Chromosome 12, but don’t match the others in this Richard Frazer TG. Their DNA is perhaps from another Frazer line or a collateral line (perhaps a spouse of one of the Frazers).

TG 12 Chart

TG 18: Back to the Archibald/Stinson Line

Chr 18 TG

Frazer Parker TG

That’s last TG that I see for now. This could be a Parker TG as we have no proof that it is specifically a Frazer TG. If there was another TG on Chromosome 18 to the Frazer/Stinson Line, that would prove that the TG above would have to be a Frazer TG.

Summary by the Numbers

TG Summary by Chromosome

This chart shows the TGs by Chromosome. GBP means Generations before Present. I used the people in blue for this number as they were a little closer to the common ancestors than the others. The cousin level used was also for the people in blue. For example, I am 2nd cousin once removed with my cousin Paul, because I am one generation further away from Violet Frazer than he is.

  • This chart above shows 11 TGs
  • This represents 7 groups of TGs as there are 2 purple groups (TG01 and TG12) and one green group (TG08) with overlapping TGs.
  • The chart shows that 14 people from the project are in TGs 45 times.
  • As expected, the people in blue are usually in TGs more than the ones that aren’t. Bill was an exception to that rule.
  • The people that have more than one Frazer ancestor are more likely to be in the TGs. Vivien was an exception to that rule.
  • The first purple group contains 3 overlapping TGs. As these TGs go back to an early Frazer, we expect that the middle TG is for Richard Frazer and not his unknown wife. Likewise, the later TG is for Violet Frazer, Richard’s daughter and not for James Frazer, Violet’s husband.
  • TG04A is not colored in, because I can’t tell which line the TG is for. In addition, I can’t tell if the TG is for a Frazer or the spouse.
  • TG04B, I can tell that the TG is for the Frazer/Stinson Line, but I can’t tell if the TG is for the Frazer or Stinson Line.
  • TG08A I can tell that the TG is for Archibald Frazer b. about 1778 and not his wife, because there is an overlapping TG for Archibald Frazer’s parents
  • TG18 I don’t have colored in, because I can’t tell if the TG is for Archibald Frazer or his wife Catherine Parker.

Here is the same chart sorted from newer TG to older TG:

TG Summary by Age

This basically shows that most of the TGs that have been found for this Project are at about 5 generations before present or at the 3rd cousin level.

Things Learned About TGs

  • A critical mass of testers is needed to form a TG.
  • TGs are formed more easily when people have more than one Frazer in their ancestry
  • For overlapping Frazer TGs we can tell that the newer Frazer TGs have to be for Frazers also and not the spouses’ lines.
  • An Archibald Line/James Line TG seemed improbable due to the distance of relationship of the matches. However, that seems to have been overcome by the sheer mass of potential matches (338).











More Fun Counting Frazer Relationships

Two blogs ago, I started looking at how many Frazer relationships there were. I looked at some of the cousin marriages and how that might effect the number of relationships. I proposed this formula to count the number of relationships

Number of testers minus one plus extra relationships due to intermarriage

I discussed the definition of a relationship and how it can be based on a common ancestor. Based on that, the formula could be:

Number of testers minus one plus extra common ancestors due to intermarriage

In the Frazer DNA project, there are 27 testers.

Number of Additional Relationships

The first tester I looked at had 38 relatives and I enumerated each of those relationships. I also checked that number by the formula and was able to find 2 mistakes that I had made. Above, I reasoned that the second tester would have one less relationship as her relationship to the previous tester would already be listed. Going down the line I used the same reasoning for each of the 27 testers. I added the testers and got 675 relationships. I then checked to see how many relationships there would be if there were no additional common ancestors/relationships. I found out that due to the cousin marriages in the first decade of the 1800’s there were 324 extra relationships in the project.

any questions?

I felt a little uncomfortable using that number after just trying it out on one person. For one reason, the person I used had no known extra Frazer ancestors. I thought that I had better try this on Bill, one of our testers. He along with others in his family have 2 extra Frazer ancestors. I was worried that I might be counting too many or too few. For example, am I counting Bill being related to himself? Should I be? Or if Bill descends from 3 Frazer Lines, then should I be counting each version of Bill as he descends from those lines and relates to everyone else? This would be something like taking all the testers (27) subtracting one and then multiplying by 3 to get the ways that Bill relates to all of them? 26 time 3 is 78. This is quite a bit more than the 38 I came up with in my previous blog. But then I would think that Bill should not be counting his closer relative 3 times.

Let’s field test bill

Here is the simplified chart I am using to check Bill’s relationships:

Frazer chart

I say ‘simplified’ because Bill is actually in the first blue column with me but he isn’t shown. In addition, my cousin Paul isn’t shown there.  Bill’s cousin and aunt aren’t shown. Paul and my family aren’t shown on the first yellow long to save space. Two of Ros’ cousins aren’t shown on the purple line. Michael’s 2nd salmon line was abbreviated but actually continues down to him. The group that isn’t colored in is the James Line. In the Archibald Line on the left, I needed the color coding to keep the cousin marriages sorted out. If this was drawn true to life, the colored area would be a lot more built out.

Ground rules
  • I won’t count Bill’s relatedness to himself as that seems weird. This mimics DNA testing also as you don’t find matches of yourself to yourself.
  • I’ll try not to count duplicate relationships that shouldn’t be counted
  • I will count each of the 3 versions of Bill as he is descended from Philip, Richard and Archibald Frazer and how he is related to everyone else in the project.
  • I’ll look for a formula to keep everything straight – and save time for future counting.

I have a feeling that I’ll be close to my 78 number above.

Bill from Blue Line (PHilip)
  1. Bill to Patricia – 2C
  2. To Gladys – Aunt
  3. To Paul – 3C, 1R
  4. Joel – 4C
  5. Sharon – 4C
  6. Heidi – 4C
  7. Jane – 5C, 1R
  8. From Richard: Patricia – 6C
  9. Gladys – 5C, 1R
  10. Paul – 5C, 1R
  11. Joel – 6C
  12. Sharon – 6C
  13. Heidi – 6C
  14. Michael – 5C, 1R
  15. From Archibald: Ros – 6C
  16. Jean – 6C
  17. Vivien – 5C, 1R
  18. Cathy – 5C, 1R
  19. Jane – 5C, 1R
  20. Michael – 5C, 1R
  21. Doug – 6C
  22. Patricia – 6C
  23. Gladys – 5C, 1R
  24. Carol – 8C
  25. Clyde – 7C, 1R
  26. Kathy – 7C, 1R
  27. Charlotte – 6C, 2R
  28. Mary – 7C, 1R
  29. Betty – 6C, 2R
  30. Joanna – 6C, 2R
  31. Jonathan – 6C, 2R
  32. Janet – 6C, 2R
  33. Prudence – 6C, 2R
  34. Beverly – 6C, 2R
  35. Bonnie – 6C, 2R
  36. Judith- 6C, 2R

So there, I’m up to the 38 minus the 2 times I didn’t have Bill related to himself.

Bill from first Yellow line (Richard)

Now I have to make sure I don’t repeat any relationships. I’m tempted to call this 36 times 3 and call it quits. However, when I get to those within the yellow line (Patricia, Gladys, Paul, Heidi, Joel and Sharon) I think I need to skip them as the descent from James and Violet Frazer is pretty much the same as from Violet and James Frazer.

  1. From Philip: Gladys – 5C, 1R
  2. Carol – 8C
  3. Paul – 5C, 1R
  4. Joel – 6C
  5. Sharon – 6C
  6. Heidi – 6C
  7. From Richard: Jane –  Now closer at 4C, 1R
  8. Michael –  Now closer at 4C, 1R
  9. From Archibald: Ros – 6C
  10. Jean – 6C
  11. Vivien – 5C, 1R
  12. Cathy – 5C, 1R
  13. Jane – 5C, 1R
  14. Michael – 5C, 1R
  15. Doug – 6C
  16. Patricia – 6C
  17. Gladys – 5C, 1R
  18. Carol – 8C
  19. Clyde – 7C, 1R
  20. Kathy – 7C, 1R
  21. Charlotte – 6C, 2R
  22. Mary – 7C, 1R
  23. Betty – 6C, 2R
  24. Joanna – 6C, 2R
  25. Jonathan – 6C, 2R
  26. Janet – 6C, 2R
  27. Prudence – 6C, 2R
  28. Beverly – 6C, 2R
  29. Bonnie – 6C, 2R
  30. Judith

I think I did that right. The difference was we didn’t count the James and Violet descendants again.

Let’s Try Something Different

Rather than go one by one I decided to look at all the relationships in a grid. Gedmatch uses grids for some of their comparisons, and it seems like a good idea. My first version of this blog disappeared, so I’ll spare you from some of the previous mistakes I made.

Relationship Grid Revised

In the above grid, I finished the descendants of Philip and started with the descendants of Richard in yellow on the left. I decided not to repeat the relationships between Bill’s family and mine here. That is because they are the same relationships and are from the same common ancestors of James Frazer and Violet Frazer that had already been counted from the blue section.

The last column is the sum of the relationships in a row.

Archibald Rel Grid

Above is the start of the (green) descendants of Archibald. I only colored the areas where there were multiple descendants. Here I don’t include Bill’s 2nd cousin and Aunt as they were included previously with the same common ancestors – even though those common ancestors descended from different lines. However, I did include an extra relationship between Bill and Jane and Michael. Even though the relationship of 4th cousin once removed is the same as before, this time they have different common ancestors (Frazer/Stinson vs. Richard Frazer). I had mentioned that relationships are defined by the common ancestors, so I am trying to keep that definition consistently used.

And the Answer Is: 704

Somehow, I got the number of relationships up to 704 from 27 testers. Here’s the handy-dandy 704 relationship grid that no Frazer Project tester should be without:

704 Relationship Grid

Poor Judith at the bottom has zero relationships. Not really. Her Project number is 39, so her relationships can be read from the top right. This grid is a little bulky, so I decided to take out Jean from the Archibald Line and Carol and Kathy from the James Line. They have all had their mothers tested. So technically, their own results would not be as useful as their mother’s. Here is what the grid looks without them.

Grid wo 3

It doesn’t look much different, but it gets the number of relationships down to 593. [The correct total is in the next grid.] With the 3 taken out, that makes 13 Archibald Line testers and 11 James Line testers for a total of 24. If there were no additional relationships due to intermarrying with this number of testers, that would result in 276 relationships. So the early 1800’s Frazer marriages resulted in about 320 extra relationships in our project.

Grid wo 3

Here I have colored in the matches between the Archibald Line and the James Line (inter-line matches). Some observations:

  • The shaded area is 11 by 25. That means that there are 275 ways for Archibald Line and the James Line testers to match each other.
  • If our genealogy is right, the relationships between Archibald Line and James line is between 6th cousin, once removed and 7th cousin once removed.
  • The triangle to the left of the shaded area represents matches between Archibald Line testers and other Archibald Line testers. The triangle beneath the shaded area represents matches between James Line testers to other James Line testers.
  • The relationships favor the Archibald Line (larger triangle) which helps to explain the number of Triangulation Groups as well as overall matches as compared to the James Line.
  • The James Line has 55 relationships counted (for matches just with other James Line testers).
  • The Archibald Line has 263 relationships just among the Archibald Line. That’s about 5 times the potential relationships compared to the James Line
  • I know that I have one other Frazer ancestor line, but I can’t place it. Is this all the extra Frazer Lines that are out there, or are there many more?
  • The James Line relationship triangle is all filled in. This is due to no known cousin marriages there.
  • The Archibald Line relationship triangle has people in it more than once and blank areas where I tried not to count duplicate relationships or one’s relationship to oneself.
  • These relationship levels are based on genealogy which has not always been proven. However, the number of relationships should still be the same.
  • It would be interesting to tabulate the numbers of different relationships per Line, tester, etc. This may also help to explain the matches that we have.
  • There doesn’t appear to be a simple formula that could get us to this 704 number of relationship matches. My previous formula was an OK estimate.
  • I haven’t verified every relationship.
Test driving the grid

Grid Test Drive

Here is where the rubber hits the road. I want to see if the grid works.

  • How many matches do I have? I add up my 2 horizontal Joel Lines for 30 and 22. Then I add up my vertical lines (#5 and 12). Those columns have 4 and 6 matches. That gives me a total of 62 relationship matches.
  • How many times do I match Bill? I have highlighted 5 relationships. Logically one might think there would be 6, but I eliminated the extra relationship we had under James and Violet Frazer. That is where more of the dashes are. What are the 5 relationships I have with Bill? The first is 4th cousin (represented by the aforementioned James and Violet). The second is Bill’s descent from Philip related to my descent from Richard. The third is my descent from Philip to Bill’s descent from Richard. Note that both these last 2 relationships also had to go through James and Violet. So why did I add them? I look at it this way. Do your parents have common ancestors? Mine don’t that I know of. So I descend from them once. James and Violet had common ancestors, so that is why I am adding those common ancestors as my common ancestors resulting in an extra relationship. Finally my descent from Philip and my descent from Richard connects to Bill’s descent from Archibald to form the last 2 relationships. If I’m wrong, you can sue me for breach of relationship.
Well, I may be wrong: more on endogamy

In my previous blog, I wrote more on endogamy and relationships. Let’s take Bill and me for example. Bill and I are 4th cousins on the face of it. We are also 6th cousins. The below figure shows 6 of our 6th cousin relationships. Remember cousins are defined by the number of common ancestors they share. Here we share the same common ancestors 6 times. It looks like 5 times, but it there are 6 combinations or relationships between Bill and me: B1-J1, B1-J2, B2-J1, B2-J2, B3-J1, B3-J2.

Bill Joel 6C

Here is Bill and me with our 4th cousin relationships.

Bill Joel 4C

I tried to point my line to James in the first match and Violet in the second match. These are not endogamous relationships but there are 2 non-endogamous 4th cousin relationships that we have through common ancestors. It may seem like these were counted in the previous example, but they weren’t. That chart was counting 6th cousin relationships with the common ancestor of Archibald and Mary Lilley.

As a result, it looks like I am related to Bill 8 times, not the 5 I mentioned above. Unfortunately, my relationships chart above, only has room for 6 relationships. Rather than revise my chart, I think I’ll just bump Bill and my relationships up to 6 from 5. I’ll make that 2 – 4th cousins and 4 – 6th cousins.

taking it one step further

Now what about my cousin Paul and I? We are 2nd cousins once removed. We both have as a common ancestor George Frazer b. about 1838. He is in the blue line and the first yellow line. Am I related to him once or twice? According to the Segmentology blog, it appears that it should only be once. Here is a screen shot from the Segmentology Endogamy I Blog, that I didn’t cover in my previous Blog:

No Endog

And here is my ancestry showing that George Frazer appears in my ancestry only once:

JA Frazer Ancestors

The colored charts I had above made it confusing as it looked like George was in my ancestry twice, but that was because I had him coming down from two lines. Those lines actually merge into [one] George William Frazer as shown above. The bottom line is that I should only be counting my relationship with Paul once. This would also apply to Bill, his Aunt Gladys and his cousin Pat.

So all that work and I only added 3 relationships. There are other relationships out there, but I guess we only count them for the purposes of endogamy and extra DNA matches.

Final? Count of 707

I’ll stick to this chart for now.

Final Relationship Chart







More On Frazer Endogamy

I had written a blog quite a while back (July 2015) on Frazer Endogamy. In the Archibald Line of the Frazer DNA Project at least, there were some Frazer ancestor cousins that married. This creates more DNA for the project and more confusion in figuring out what DNA came from which ancestor. Since my earlier blog, Jim Bartlett has written two interesting blogs on Endogamy at his Segmentology Blog site.

I actually started out trying to write a blog on Frazer Triangulation Groups.

As a part of writing about Triangulation, I tried counting all the Frazer relationships. This was not as easy as I thought.

Then I saw that I needed to understand endogamy better before I could look at either Triangulation Groups or Frazer relationships. In this Blog, I’ll go through the Segmentolgy Blog from December 2015 called Endogamy: Part I. I will insert Frazer examples in place of the theoretical examples used.

Here’s a simplified view of the Archibald Line:

Archibald Line for Endogamy

For example, it doesn’t show that George Frazer, my second great grandfather in the middle blue box is the brother of Richard Frazer in the first middle yellow box. Here are the Archibald Line testers from the Frazer DNA Project. Jean is the daughter of Vivien, so isn’t included here:

ALine Testers

The testers in the colored groups are in more than one line so they appear more than one time. That’s the endogamy part. Here is the Segmentology Blog’s Figure 1:

Seg Fig 1

This shows the case with no endogamy.  The chart has a lot of information on it. It shows how much DNA one gets from one parent (half). It shows how much DNA siblings share (half).  In every generation, the theoretical amount that is shared by you and your match is 1/4 of the previous generation.  In the Frazer project, a lot of our matches are in the 4th cousin or 5th cousin level. Between these two levels of matches, the level of average match goes from 13.75 cM to 3.438 cM. As many of you know, 7 cM is a normal threshold for establishing matches. Fortunately, these are averages and we do have matches at the 5th cousin level in many cases.  I won’t be using Columns 6-8 in my example.

Frazer Endogamy by the Numbers

Frazer E1 example – no endogamy

For this example, we will have to choose a match between Ros, Vivien, Cathy or Doug as the other testers descend from multiple Frazer Lines. I’ll pick Ros and Cathy. I have that they are 3rd cousins, once removed. Here is how they actually match:

Ros Cathy Match

Their common ancestor (Anc) is Archibald Frazer and Catherine Parker. I have to pick an ancestor for the example, so I’ll pick Catherine Parker.

Frazer E1

I tried to make this chart look like Jim Bartletts, but added in actual ancestors on Ros and Cathy’s sides. This says that their assumed ancestor Catherine Parker passed down 220 cM of DNA to Ros and 440 cM to Cathy. However, the amount that we share with a match is much less than the total DNA that we inherit. Ros and Cathy share halfway between theoretical 55 cM and 14 cM shown in the chart above. Halfway is about 34 cM which is pretty close to what gedmatch showed for an actual match between the two at 31.4 cM. Gedmatch thought that Ros and Cathy should be 4.4 generations to a common ancestor. They are actually a tiny bit further out at 4.5 generations.

Frazer E2 example – Two ancestors (a little endogamy) [e2]

Again I’m borrowing Jim Bartlett’s Segmentology Blog wording and adapting it for the Frazer Program. Here is Jim’s Figure 2 from his Endogamy Blog:

Jim's E2

Here he added an extra column and a splash of color. The example here has one person with a double descent from an ancestor matching or being related to another person. This happened when two second cousin married and had children. It is important to know that the A1, A2 on ‘your’ side and A on the match side above are all the same ancestor being matched. Here the same DNA gets passed down to all the children, but the amount that gets passed down to the children of parents that are related to each other is doubled. This has the net result of doubling the expected match also. The yellow represents second cousins that married. In our example, we will use 1st cousins.

For the Match Column on the right, we will need to pick from those who don’t have multiple Frazer ancestors. Let’s try Cathy with one Frazer ancestor and Michael with 2 Frazer ancestors.

MFA CR Match

Here Cathy and Michael share 16.7 cM on Chromosome 15. Their Most Recent Common Ancestors (MRCAs) are as shown. This is where it can get a little confusing. (I sure was.) They only share those ancestors in a non-endogamous way – that is, in the E1 example above. To get to the endogamous situation, we have to back another generation. Michael’s ancestors, John and Isabella Frazer married. They were 1st cousins, so their common ancestors were their grandparents. Those grandparents were Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley. Here is what I get:

E2 Figure

When Isabella was born in 1841, she got a double dose of Frazer DNA from her parents. This is shown in the net column.

Michael and cathy are non-endogamous Fourth cousins and endogamous Fifth Cousins

Note that there are 2 different things going on here. First, Michael and Cathy are related as fourth cousins through Archibald Frazer b. about 1778 and Ann Stinson. This is not endogamous as neither of those ancestors appear multiple times in Michael’s ancestry. However, because this relationship is closer at 4th cousin, the expected match would be around 14 cM as per figure 1. Here, the further out endogamous relationship only results in a suspected match of about 7 cM which is right about at the level one would even start seeing a match. If not for endogamy, this match would only be half that amount. So which match are we seeing? I would expect that it would be the closer 4th cousin match.

Here is a representation of the issue:

E2 FigureR

The left red line actually goes through the Richard Frazer box on the second row. The middle red line goes through the Archibald in the uncolored box in the second row on the right. This shows how Michael and Cathy are 4th cousins once, but 5th cousins twice by endogamy. What happened here is that the endogamy boosted the 5th cousin theoretical shared amount by 2.  In summary Michael and Cathy’s theoretical average matches would be expected to be:

  • 4th Cousin [E1] – 14 cM
  • 5th Cousin [E2] – 7 cM
Frazer E2 example (second try) – Two ancestors (a little endogamy) [e2]

While out on a training run, I came up with a better idea. I’ll take my cousin Paul, who doesn’t descend from the same group on the right and match him with a non-endogamous Frazer tester. That will be much clearer. Here is Paul from the Philip and Richard Lines and Vivien from the Archibald/Stinson Line.

Paul Vivien Match

They are both 5 generations from Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley. Gedmatch shows them at 4.9 generations. The chart looks the same:

Endog 2nd try

The path of the relationships is clearer:

Paul Vivien Chart

Perhaps, were it not for endogamy, Paul and Vivien would not have matched by DNA at all. Here there theoretical match would be about 7 cM (vs. about 3.5 cM without endogamy). Their actual match was 15 cM.

Three Frazer ancestors (a little more endogamy) [e3]

Here, we will take Gladys who descends from 3 Frazer Lines and compare her with Cathy. Again, we will have the issue where Gladys and Cathy will be 4th and 5th cousins. Let’s just look at the 5th cousins as that is where the endogamy is. Gladys and Cathy match like this:

Gladys Cathy Match R

Gedmatch has them at a little better than 4th cousins.

Here is our Segmentology Example:

Segment Fig 3

The above chart represents 2 cousin marriages shown in yellow. Second cousins marry in Gen 3 and then their child marries another cousin in Gen 4. This is sort of what happened in Gladys’ ancestry. She had first cousins James and Violet Frazer (also my ancestors) marry. Then their son Richard married Amelia Hassard who was the daughter of Ann Frazer. Ann Frazer was another first cousin of James and Violet Frazer. So Richard Frazer married his 2nd cousin. However, due to Richard’s parents being cousins, Amelia was his second cousin twice – or two different ways.

Here’s our Frazer E3 Example:

E3 Chart

I still have chosen the common ancestor as Mary Lilley (though it could be Archibald Frazer). I don’t have Gladys’ ancestors by name as there are 3 sets of ancestors there. The end result is that Gladys and Cathy should share a total of 10.3 cM through this 5th cousin endogamous relationship. Normally 6th cousins would share 1/3 this amount.

Where did the matching dna come from?

E3 Frazer Chart

There are 3 chances to make it to a total of 10.3 cM in the endogamous red line 5th cousin relationships. That means a possible 3 different segments of about 3.5 cM each. There is only one chance that Gladys could match Cathy at 4th cousin for a 14 cM likely match. As Gladys and Cathy match on one segment, I think that the match may be from the 4th cousin relationship shown by the blue lines above. That non-endogamous relationship should average a match of about 14 cM. Gladys and Cathy had an actual match of about 15 cM.

Two frazer ancestors X 2 (more endogamy) [e4]

segment e4

What has happened here? We see a situation where one person has ancestors that were 2nd cousins matches another person who has ancestors that were 3rd cousins. Looking at the 3rd row, those ancestors were A1 through A4. The catch is that A1, A2, A3 and A4 are all the same ancestor. I’m sure we have a similar situation in our Frazer DNA Project. One example of that would be Paul matching Michael. Here is how they match:

Paul Michael Match

E4 Chart

According to Gedmatch, Paul and Michael look like 3rd cousins based on the level that they matched by DNA. Based on our genealogy charts, they are 4th or 5th cousins. Above I show the E4 Endogamy situation. That is, Paul with Archibald (top box) as his ancestor twice is related to Michael (who has red lines going twice to Archibald in the top box also). Those all represent 5th cousins. In addition Paul and Michael are 4th cousins going up to Richard Frazer. I don’t show that as it would get too messy.

E4 Chart

Actually, the 5th cousin relationship doesn’t explain the large match. The 5th cousin E4 only results in 14 cM. Paul and Michael are also 4th cousins also, but it is not an endogamous match. The best I understand this is that Paul and Michael should share:

  • 14 cM due to a non-endogamous 4th cousin relationships with Richard Frazer as Common Ancestor
  • A total of 14 cM due to an E4 engamous relationshipe with Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley as common ancestors.

To show that Paul and Michael are not a fluke, here are some other matches:

Chr 1 4C matches

These are all project member in a Triangulation Group with E4 Endogamy and 4th cousin or 4th cousin, once removed relationships. As Michael (MFA), Jane, Paul (PF) and my sister Heidi (HHM) all have similar match numbers and are all in a Triangulation group, we can assume similar endogamy and ancestors for each. In fact, Jane was added to this group early on in the Frazer DNA Project due to the Triangulation.

Let’s move on to the next level of endogamy, to see if that makes more sense.

Three frazer ancestors; Two Frazer Ancestors(more endogamy) [e6]

Again, I borrow the figure from the Segmentology Endogamy Part I Blog:

Fig 5 E6

Fortunately, the Frazers also have this situation. We can use Gladys on the left hand side. One the right we have the choice of Michael or Paul. I’d rather use Michael, as Gladys and Paul are related in additional ways that might make the example more confusing.

E6 Frazer Diagram Gladys Michael

The above chart shows 6 endgamous 5th cousin relationships between Gladys and Michael. There are also two 4th cousin non-endogamous relationships between the two (represented below). One has Richard Frazer as the common ancestor. The other has Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson as common ancestors.

E6 Frazer Diagram

I enter Gladys and Michael in at Gedmatch at get:

Gladys Michael Gedmatch

Now that is a surprise. An E4 at 5th cousin got an actual match of 54. This E6, 5C match got only 7.4 cM?

E6 Frazer Chart

In summary, Gladys and Michael have:

  • 6 – 5th cousin relationships for a theoretical total of 20.6 cM
  • 2 – 4th cousin relationships of about 14 cM each

To satisfy my curiosity, I ran Gladys and Michael at a low threshold of 3 cM and got many matches at

Gladys Michael Low Threshold

I expect the matches above 6 may be valid. The Chromosome 1 match is in a defined Triangulation Group (TG) with the common ancestor of Richard Frazer. The Chromosome 7 match is in an area where there is already a match with Vivien of our project. She has as her ancestor Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. So the Chromosome 7 match above likely represents those common ancestors. The Chromosome 15 and 17 matches over 6 cM also likely represent the Frazer/Stinson Line. All this is to say at the 8 potential relationships we showed above for Gladys and Michael, we can find DNA evidence for 4 DNA matches.

So that is enough on Frazer endogamy for now.

Some notes and summaries
  • Endogamy from the Archibald Line of the Frazer project account for many additional relationships and chances for DNA matching
  • The theory of endogamy as set out in the Segmentology blog seems to be consistent with the Frazer relationships and DNA matches
  • One set of matches that endogamy did not account for was the many high Frazer matches that also form a Triangulation Group in Chromosome 1. These actual DNA matches were well above what would have been predicted
  • By lowering the gedmatch thresholds, it may be possible to see additional endogamous matches where they were predicted by additional endogamous relationships
  • These extra endogamous relationships seem to be responsible for the many Triangulation Groups in the Frazer DNA Project
  • This exercise reinforces that relationships are based on Common Ancestors.
  • This Blog has also helped to sort out some confusing relationships and clear up which relationships are endogamous and which ones aren’t – and at what level of cousin-ship they are at.












Counting Frazer Cousins: Who Knew It Could Be So Difficult?

I started out writing a blog summarizing all the Frazer Triangulation Groups (TGs) in a Frazer DNA Project. In order to look at these TGs, I thought that it would make sense to figure out how many relationships there are in the Frazer DNA Project. Who knew it could be so difficult? The problem is that there are 3 testers that appear to have a least two Frazer cousins that married each other in their ancestry. There are 3 testers that are descended from 3 related Frazer Lines.

Here are some ancestors of some of the Frazer cousins I am counting:


A Brief Summary

The project is broken up into 2 Frazer Lines: The Archibald Line and the James Line. These are 2 very likely brothers that were living in proximity to each other in North Roscommon, Ireland at the time of the Elphin Census in 1749. The Archibald Line has descendants that have the cousin ancestors. The James Line does not have any known cousin marriages. There are 14 testers from the Archibald Line and 13 from the James Line for a total of 27 testers. Here is a view of some of the Archibald Line:

Archibald Frazer Line Chart

The Problem

Bill (along with his aunt and second cousin who have tested) is descended from the blue line and the 2 yellow lines. That means he descends from 3 Frazer brothers: Philip, Richard and Archibald. Here are the testers with multiple Frazer ancestors:

Multiple Frazer Ancestors

I added in Archibald at the top to show that he is the father of Philip, Richard and Archibald.

The Answer I Came Up With

When in doubt, I go to the ISOGG Web Page. According to the ISOGG Page on Cousin:

“A cousin is a relative with whom a person shares one or more common ancestors.”

There you have it. I was tempted to count the relationships more than once as my cousin Paul and I were both descended from James Frazer and Violet Frazer. However, those are not common ancestors. The common ancestors would be the grandparents of James Frazer and Violet Frazer: Richard Frazer b. about 1777 and his unknown wife.

Archibald Frazer Line Chart Common Ancestor

The red circle is the point at which I start to count the extra relationships. However, this still seems to be complicated. Let’s just look at VO from Australia. She is on the purple line (further down for privacy). She does not have any known multiple Frazer ancestors.

VO’s Archibald Line relatives are:

  1. Daughter Jean (purple)
  2. 1C, 1R Ros (purple)
  3. 3C Cathy (orange)
  4. 3C Jane (green on the right) to Common Ancestor (CA) Archibald Frazer who married Catherine Parker
  5. 4C Michael (salmon on the right)
  6. 4C Gladys (yellow on the right)
  7. 4C, 1R Bill (yellow): CA Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson
  8. 4C, 1R Patricia (same yellow)
  9. 5C Michael (salmon): CA is Archibald Frazer/Mary Lilley
  10. 5C Paul as he descends from Richard
  11. 5C, 1R me (Joel)
  12. 5C, 1R Heidi
  13. 5C, 1R Sharon
  14. 5C Jane
  15. 5C Gladys as she descends from Richard
  16. 1R Bill
  17. 5C, 1R to Patricia
  18. 5C Paul as he descends from Philip
  19. 5C, 1R me (Joel)
  20. 5C, 1R Heidi
  21. 5C, 1R Sharon
  22. 5C Gladys as she descends from Philip
  23. 1R Bill
  24. 5C, 1R Patricia

The method I used was to go up each line to a common ancestor. Due to cousin marriages, there were multiple lines for some people going up to Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley. Bill and his 2 relatives come up 3 times as they have 3 Frazer ancestor lines.  Six others come up 2 times because they have That method resulted in finding 24 relationships for VO just on the Archibald Line. Then there would be additional relationships on the James line for those 13 testers. Having said that, let’s move on to the James Line

Is 24 the Right Number?

Sometimes I like to check my work. With 14 testers, there should be 13 relationships as you are not related to yourself. In my chart of multiple relationships, I had 21 relationships with 9 people. That should be an additional 12 relationsips. 13 + 12 = 25. I seem to be missing one. I went through my list again, and see I missed Doug. Sorry, Doug. That makes the total 25. Always check your work.

VO is 4C, 1R to Doug

The premise still stands: Who knew it could be so difficult to count relatives? The Chart I was looking at above was made before Doug tested. I need to add him in there.

James Line Relatives

There are a couple of problems here. One person has pointed out that the James Line Chart that I have been using is inaccurate. No chart is perfect, so I use it as a working model. As more testing and analysis is done, as well as more genealogy, there may be minor or major adjustments made to the chart. There is also something on the Archibald Line Chart that effects the relationships. Note in the colored chart that above Archibald and Mary Lilley there is is another Archibald. This Archibald wasn’t there in the original research done 50 or so years ago. My understanding is that he was added more recently to make more sense with the dates. But if that Archibald doesn’t belong there, it would make the relationships between the two lines closer. All this is to say that there are a lot of variables in comparing DNA to genealogy.

Here is the James Line Chart:

James Line

In the above chart, there is hot dispute as to whether Archibald who married Catherine Knott should be under Michael or rather under the Archibald that married Catherine Peyton. However, with regards to VO from the Archibald Line and her level of relationships with testers from the James Line, these specific issues should not be so important.

VO and her James Line Relationships

I use VO from the Archibald Line of the Frazer DNA Project to continue the example. I am keeping the ‘extra’ Archibald on the Archibald Line that was added to make sense with the dates. Without him, the relationships will be a little closer and move all the relationships up half a step. I wonder if perhaps that extra Archibald should not be there. That might help explain the number of DNA matches between the two lines. Or are the number of matches between the two lines due to the cousin relationships on the Archibald Line? Or perhaps both reasons apply?

James Line matches to VO:

6C, 1R (6C if we take out the added Archibald on the Archibald Line)

  1. Charlotte
  2. Betty
  3. Joanna
  4. Janet
  5. Jonathan
  6. Beverly
  7. Bonnie
  8. Judith

7C (Or possibly 6C, 1R – see above)

  1. Clyde
  2. Kathy – as a daughter of Charlotte, her DNA results don’t get used
  3. Mary

7C, 1R

  1. Carol – as a daughter of Clyde, her DNA results don’t get used

The Grand Total

I get a total of 37 relationships for VO from Australia (25 Archibald Line plus 12 Archibald Line). Recall that she is just one of 27 Project testers. Hopefully, all the testers will not have 37 relationships.  I chose VO somewhat randomly, but she was a good choice. I mention her in 2 of my fairly recent blogs

Note that Triangulation Groups came up in both the above blogs about VO. So VO (or less impersonally, Vivien) will be mentioned in my upcoming blog when I discuss all the Frazer DNA Project Triangulation Groups.

Rechecking the James Line

As I said above, always check. There are 13 James Line testers, so there have to be 13 relationships there. I missed Prudence at 6C, 1R. That means we are up to a total of 25 Archibald relationships and 13 James Line Relationships for Vivien for a total of 38. Note that the effect of intermarriage increases the number of effective relationships by a factor of almost 2 in the Archibald Line (25 vs. 13).

In formula form the total is:

Number of testers minus one plus extra relationships due to intermarriage


That is my final answer (until proven wrong).



Gladys V. The Archibald Frazer Line

In my last post, I mentioned the DNA results of Gladys as they related to my 2nd great grandparents (her 1st great grandparents) James Frazer and Violet Frazer of North Roscommon Ireland. Gladys is my third cousin once removed, twice. Twice because my 3rd great grandparents were believed to be first cousins and both Frazers. In addition, Gladys is my 5th cousin once removed on another Frazer Line (lower right below), so it gets quite confusing.

Archibald Frazer Line Chart

In simple terms, referring to the chart above, we are related on blue and yellow lines. That means that Gladys is a triple Frazer. I am also a triple Frazer, though one of my Frazers hasn’t definitively been placed in a family.

My apologies to math haters for the following. In the 1st decade of the 1800’s, Gladys had 3 Frazer 2nd great grandparents. We all have 4 grandparents. Agreed? We have 8 great grandparents and 16 2nd great grandparents. 3/16 of Gladys’ 2nd great grandparents are Frazers. As we probably know, we all get a full set of chromosomes from both our parents. So on Gladys’ father’s side, 3/8 of her DNA is Frazer from the 1st decade of the 1800’s. Of course, on her mother’s side 0% should be Frazer.

AncestryDNA Results

Gladys tested at AncestryDNA. Her 1st match is my sister Sharon shown as 3rd cousin. Then as 4th cousin Ancestry has as Gladys’ matches: Jane of this Project, myself and my sister Heidi. As I mentioned, I’m a 3rd cousin once removed to Gladys, so Ancestry’s prediction seems pretty good. Jane is also a 4th cousin – at least once (and twice if our predictions are correct).

AncestryDNA also shows Shared Ancestor Hints.

G Murray SAH

I don’t have it shown, but further down, it shows Sharon as being Gladys’ 3rd cousin once removed. At the top are our common ancestors James and Violet. Gladys’ grandfather is shown as George Frazer on the left. My sister Sharon’s ancestors are on the right. Here is how Gladys matches Michael of this project:

MFA Gladys SAH

I added this for 2 reasons. One is that Michael is shown as a “Distant Cousin” to Gladys. By this Ancestry means a 5th to eighth cousin. But on the Shared Ancestry Hint above, they are shown as 4th cousins. Why is this? This is because believes the  DNA indicates a more distant relationship than what is shown on the paper trail. The second reason I am showing this is: look at the green leaf. Next to that leaf it says, “Shared Ancestor Hint 1 of 3”. That means Ancestry shows one hint for Gladys’ match with my sister Sharon, yet 3 for her match with Michael. Hint 1 is Richard Frazer Hint 2 is Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. Hint 3 is Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley. I’m not sure why that couple is included as they are the parents of Richard Frazer and Archibald Frazer.

Gedmatch Traceability

This is a fairly new tool at Gedmatch. I like this tool, because it shows the matches in a visible way. I put in 13 of the Archibald Line testers. I didn’t include Jean (sorry, again!) as her mom’s results were in there. I call this the Archibald Line Globe.

Archibald Line Globe

I notice a few things:

  • It’s very colorful
  • There are no matches on the outside of the globe on either side of F437682. That is Doug.
  • The matches are fairly well evenly distributed.

I’d like to slice this Archibald Line Globe up. The problem is, we have different groups and some of them overlap. Here are the testers:

Archibald Line Generations Estimate

As an aside, notice that Jane has matches in every column.

Here are 4 groups in the Archibald Line:

  1. As mentioned in my previous blog, the 1st 7 testers above descend from James Frazer and Violet Frazer who were both born in the 1st decade of the 1800’s. (In red below to the right of the red line.)
  2. Joel, Heidi, Sharon and Paul also descend from Richard Frazer b. about 1777, but not from Archibald b. about 1778. (In yellow below to the right of the yellow line.)
  3. Cathy, Ros, V.O and Doug only descend from Archibald b. about 1778. (In blue below to the left of the blue line.)
  4. Gladys, Bill, Patricia, Jane, and Michael descend from the 2 brothers Richard and Archibald b. around 1777 and 1778. (In pink below, between the blue and yellow line.)

Archibald Line Globe

So I hope this confuses…, I mean, clears up everything:

  • The blue group has single Frazer ancestors (Frazer/Stinson Line). They have fewer connecting lines (matches with others).
  • Michael and Jane in the top left descend from Richard and Archibald but they don’t descend from James (son of Philip) and Violet (daughter of Richard).
  • Gladys, Bill and Patricia on the bottom right are in the triple category of being descended from the 3 brothers: Philip, Richard and Archibald.
  • That brings up a slight correction to the Globe. The yellow at the top right should read: From Philip and Richard but not Archibald.
  • Note Doug (F437682) in the blue in the bottom left. He doesn’t match others in his blue group, but has lines going to others in the middle group. Does this mean that he doesn’t belong in the Frazer Stinson Line and should redo his genealogy? No. That just means that he matches with those that are in the combined Richard/Archibald Frazer group in the middle of the globe. That also tells us that where Michael, Jane and Patricia have a match with Doug, it should represent their Frazer/Stinson Line and not their Richard Frazer Line. This is a good way to tease apart the DNA from specific Frazer ancestors when there is more than one.
  • Likewise most of the 5 testers in the middle pink zone have matches with those in the blue and/or yellow sections. This should help them to tell which side their DNA came from.
  • The only problem is that the yellow testers also descend from Philip and another unknown Frazer Line. However, if the pink testers match the yellow, there is still a good likelihood that the match would be in the Richard Frazer Line.

Finally the details on the Globe:

Globe Details

  • Triangulation Groups (TGs) at Chromosome 1 and 12 were discovered early on during this Project. Gladys now joins in these 2 TGs. I’m not sure why the dark pink match isn’t included.
  • There is a new TG on Chromosome 5 (green) with Gladys, Cathy and Patricia. The common ancestors are most likely Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson. It appears that Jane should be in that TG also.
  • TG on Chromosome 8 with V.O., Gladys and Bill. Again, the common thread is Archibald Frazer and Ann Stinson.
  • TG on Chromosome 4 with Doug, Michael and Jane. This was previously found when Doug joined the group and represents the same Frazer/Stinson Line as above.

The Richard Line

Here I’ll omit those that aren’t in the Richard Line as they are only in the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line. That is I won’t include Cathy, Ros, VO and Doug in this analysis.  The hope is to de-clutter the Globe a bit.

Richard Line Globe w Gladys

Again, the matches are evenly distributed. The major distinction here is that 7 of these testers are descended from James and Violet Frazer. Jane and Michael on the left to lower left side are not.

The Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line

For this line, I just need to take out me, my 2 sisters and cousin Paul.

Archibald Stinson Globe

This Archibald Globe looks busier than the Richard Line Globe. It isn’t really. The program only labels the single matches and there are more single matches here. In the previous globe, there were more lines and many of those lines were the dark gray ones that indicate multiple matches.

Archibald Stinson Globe

Here those that have a single Frazer ancestor are on the left and those with double (or more) are on the right. This could be pictured as an overlay. The first layer is the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line. Overlaid on the right would be the Richard Frazer b. about 1777 descendants.

Gladys and the James Line

Gladys only had one match on the James Line. That was with Judy:

Glady James Line Globe

Gladys is at the bottom of the Globe. Her match with Judy looks like a railroad spur in blue going to the right. All the other lines represent matches where the James Line testers match each other.

Summary and Conclusions

  • I made a lot of globes. These globes allow one to look at a lot of information at once. However, for the individual Triangulation Groups, it is still good to look at the individual data sheets.
  • The globes point out what the various DNA testing groups are. For example: those descended from a certain couple; those descended from more than one Frazer ancestor, or; those who only have one Frazer ancestor.
  • The globes are helpful for those that are descended from more than one Frazer Line. If a testers from 2 Frazer Lines matches someone that is only in one Line, then that match should represent the DNA the 2 testers got from that single Frazer Line (for example the Frazer/Stinson Line).
  • Gladys formed 2 new TGs which reinforced the genealogy of the Archibald Frazer/Ann Stinson Line. She also was included in the existing Richard Frazer TGs.
  • At some point it would be a good idea to itemize and summarize the existing TGs. Note: idea for a blog.




Gladys V. James Frazer and Violet Frazer b. 1803

This Blog will be featuring Gladys who is a new Frazer autosomal DNA tester. She is the aunt of Bill and the 1st cousin once removed of Pat both of whom are already in the Frazer DNA Project. Not to be confused with my mother who is also a Gladys.

First Some Brief Genealogy

The Archibald Line refers to Archibald Frazer born around 1715, probably in North County Roscommon in about 1715. He had a younger brother, James who forms the other branch of this Frazer DNA Project. There are now 14 testers who have tested specifically for this project for the Archibald Line. There are 12 DNA testers who have tested specifically for the James Line of the Project. In addition, a few others have been found that know they are part of this family project or that we believe belong to the project due to DNA matches and Frazers in their ancestry. Here is a simplified view of the Archibald Line.

Archibald Frazer Line Chart

Some notes:

  • There are 3 sons of Archibald Frazer and Mary Lilley shown here: Philip, Richard and Archibald. There was a 4th son named John, but we haven’t been tracking that son’s line in the DNA Project.
  • James Frazer in the 1st blue box and Violet Frazer in the first yellow box were believed to be first cousins that married each other. This adds more DNA to the equation along with some confusion as to what DNA came from whom.
  • Likewise there are 2 salmon colored boxes. These represent 2 first cousins that married.
  • There are 2 sets of green boxes. These represent 2 lines from Jane, a tester in the project with many matches. She knew about her ancestors on the right set of green boxes. We added her to the left side based on triangulation groups and likely genealogy there.
  • The purple and orange boxes represent Frazer Lines that don’t appear to have more than one Frazer Line in each family.
  • Gladys who is the new tester would be in 3 of the above lines. That would be the blue line from James Frazer, the first yellow line descending from James cousin Violet Frazer and the second yellow line descending from Ann Frazer b. about 1807.

Forcing the DNA Through James Frazer b. about 1804 and Violet Frazer b. 1803

I can’t really force the DNA, but by picking the right people, I will be more likely to find the DNA from a certain couple. For example, with Gladys’ results, we now have 7 people who are believed to be descended from James and Violet Frazer. Therefor, if we compare those 7 testers’ results, we would think that it would be most likely that the DNA these 7 people share would be from that couple as opposed to more distant ancestors. Here are Violet Frazer and James Frazer and some of their descendants:

James and Violet Chart

Here’s Richard Patterson Frazer b. 1830:


Here is George William Frazer b. about 1836 (my 2nd great grandfather) on the left:


I have two other reasons for starting with James Frazer and Violet Frazer. One is that they are my ancestors and the second is that I am starting with a more simple situation. On the left, descending from Richard, there are 3 Project testers including Gladys. On the right, descending from George, there are 4 project testers (including myself, my 2 sisters and my cousin Paul). All the testers are either one or two levels below what I have shown above. That means that the testers will be between 3rd and 4th cousins to each other. According to FTDNA, a 3rd cousin should match over 90% of the time and a 4th cousin should match over 50% of the time. Here is a Generations Estimate from

Generations Estimate James Violet

For a 4th cousin, the generations to a common ancestor would be 5. The first 4 testers represent the blue line above starting with George Frazer b. about 1838. The last 3 testers represent the yellow line starting with Richard Frazer b. 1830.

Below is a Gedmatch tool called Traceability. I added the thick red line to show the divide between 2 of the sons of James and Violet Frazer: the Richard Line Testers and the George Line Testers.

Traceability James Violet

The 2 blue lines represent a Triangulation Group at Chromosome 12. This has been discussed previously. This TG goes through Violet Frazer up to her father Richard Frazer b. about 1777.

Looking for James

In a past blog, I wondered where all the DNA for James Frazer b. about 1804 went. In the chart above, I notice that Patricia and I (Joel) have a match at Chromosome 6. This could represent James Frazer. It is interesting that this match came up between Pat and me. Pat is one generation younger than Gladys and I am one generation younger than Paul. Unless I missed something, Gladys and Paul didn’t match anyone else on Chromosome 6.  Perhaps DNA is like water flowing down from James and Violet. When there is an obstruction, it flows a different way (through other siblings, for example). However, if the obstruction is in the parent, the faucet is shut off. The DNA trail stops there. We can’t have DNA that we didn’t inherit from our parents. Here is an example of an obstruction in Chromosome 6:

Chromosome 6 map

My sisters Sharon and Heidi are the first line. On the left hand side where I match Pat, they got their DNA from their Hartley grandfather, so they couldn’t match with a Frazer there. I match Pat in the lower left purple Frazer area from 5 to 12. There was an “obstruction” at my 2 sisters and the DNA “flowed” through me.

A James Triangulation Group

Next, note that Patricia and Sharon match on Chromosome 9. Here is what Sharon’s Chromosome map looks like on Chromosome 9. It is very simple.

Chromosome 9

In fact, it is all or nothing on my family’s paternal side. Sharon (S) got all the Frazer DNA while Heidi (H) and I (J) got all the Hartley (green) DNA. It’s a good thing that I tested my sister Sharon after testing myself and my sister Heidi. The match between Patricia and Sharon is shown as 85 to 90. On the map above, I see another match with Gladys which is 85 to 100. That is a good sign for a Triangulation Group (TG). Many others who are related to Sharon on the Violet (and her father Richard’s) side and had a chance to match them here but didn’t. So, I’m calling this a James Frazer TG. This is where we start to separate these 2 married Frazer cousins. Here’s what the TG looks like in spreadsheet form.

TG Chr 9 James Frazer

Note that Bill (BR) could’ve been in the TG also, but the match he had with Sharon (SH) was small (less than 4 cM and not shown here), so I didn’t include Bill.

Any Other Bits of James Frazer b. about 1804?

A Triangulation Group isn’t necessary to prove that DNA testers have common ancestors. However, it does add some certainty when the genealogy is less than certain. In this case, my less than certain ancestor is James Frazer b. about 1804. When the genealogy is fairly certain, it should only take 2 people to establish a common ancestor. Perhaps this match represents James Frazer also. Here is how Gladys matches the other 6 James and Violet Frazer descendants on Chromosome 18:

Chr 18 Murray Match

The first 3 green lines are for me and my 2 sisters. The pink is Paul, but as the match is small, I will disregard it. The Gladys match with my family also helped me map my Chromosome 18. Before her match, I couldn’t tell who I got my DNA from on my paternal side between my Hartley grandfather and my Frazer grandmother. All I knew was that I had purple and blue segments of DNA there.

Chr 18 Map

Again, my assumption is that, as others are not knocking down the door to match Gladys and my family here on Chromosome that this match is likely to represent James Frazer b. about 1804. Prior to this, it was found that many of the TGs that included this couple also included Violet’s Father Richard. For that reason some of the other TGs were seen to represent Violet.

How Did I Do in My Previous Guess of James’ DNA?

Get ready for a rocky ride with this one. Back in November 2015, I had a guess of where some of James Frazer’s b. about 1804 DNA came from. At that time, I was looking at a match between my cousin Paul and Bill. I guessed that this DNA was from James Frazer and not his wife Violet Frazer.

Paul Bill Match

My guess was due to a DNA match that only matched with descendants of James and Violet (i.e Paul and Bill). However, the usual other matches with testers who were descended from Violet’s father Richard were not there this time. That lead me to think that this DNA was from from James Frazer. How does my old guess stand up? First I thought I was right, then I thought I was wrong, but now I think I’m right again. As you can guess, the answer is not straightforward. Here is what Chromosome 8 looks like now.

Matches Chr 8

Above, I see a TG between Bill (BR), Gladys (GM) and Paul (PF). The Most Recent Common Ancestors (MRCAs) for those 3 are James and Violet Frazer. But what threw me off is that now VO is in there also. Now that VO is in there, the Frazer MRCA would be Archibald Frazer b. about 1743 and Mary Lilley. My theory is that this DNA did pass through James Frazer b. about 1804 and up through his father Philip like this:

Philip TG

Recall that Gladys, Bill and Paul all descend from James on the blue line. VO is related on the purple line. I didn’t have the TG go through Violet due to the lack of other matches on her line (via Michael and Jane, for example). So while the new DNA testers’ matches make things confusing, I believe that the results are still consistent with my earlier guess. That guess was that my cousin’s Paul’s match with Bill on Chromosome 8 is from James Frazer and not his 1st cousin wife, Violet Frazer.


  • It was a bit overwhelming looking at all the DNA matches from 3 of Gladys’ Frazer ancestors. So I started by looking at a subset of a subset of the Archibald Line. That subset was James Frazer and Violet Frazer.
  • James Frazer and Violet Frazer have 7 descendants in the Project. That seems to be a good number for getting plenty of good matches. This is especially true as we are starting out with 2 married first cousins.
  • James and Violet represent 2/32 of my 3rd great grandparents. Or 1/16 when both James and Violet are considered (combined). Or 1/8 combined of my paternal DNA. Remember we all have a full set of paternal and maternal DNA.
  • With Gladys and Paul in the project, these 2 testers are one step closer to James and Violet Frazer. James and Violet combined would represent 1/4 of Gladys’ and Paul’s paternal DNA. That doesn’t seem possible, but apparently it is. That means we are comparing 1/4 of Gladys’ and Paul’s paternal DNA with 1/8 of Bill’s, Pat’s and my family’s DNA. That resulted in some good chances for our DNA to match.
  • Early on in the Frazer DNA Project, Triangulation Groups were found. However, these TGs were for the parents of Violet. It was not clear at that time what happened to the DNA of James Frazer her husband.
  • I had thought that where Paul, my 2 sisters, Bill and Pat shared this double Frazer couple that it should be easy to find James Frazer’s DNA as well as Violets.
  • Thanks to Bill sponsoring his Aunt Gladys’ DNA, it seems like we now have found solid evidence of James’ DNA also.
  • James’ DNA appears to show up on Chromosomes 6, 8, 9 and 18. I had previously made a guess that I had found some of James’ DNA at Chromosome 8.

Next up: another look at Gladys’ matches with more of the Archibald Line DNA testers.